QLINK (and Virgin) Pilots PLEASE READ

[CaptCloudbuster]

Yesterday at Syd we were stuck on the taxiway for 5 mins unable to pass behind a Dash 8 because its Pilots refused to taxi up to the holding point even after requested by ATC.

The Dash was at least 10 meters shy of the line. Very frustrating and a phenomena Virgin Pilots are guilty of also - PLEASE MOVE UP TO THE HOLDING POINT!:ugh:

[KRUSTY 34]

That's OK. Yesterday poor old TIger was holding up the Rapid exit (B8) off 16R not sure as to whether he should give way to us as we taxied northbound up Bravo. Needless to say we had been instructed by Ground to hold short of Bravo 9.

Now it's fair enough to be cautious, but we were both stopped by this stage, and only after prompting by the ground controller did they move. Their excuse. "We weren't sure if we had to giveway to the other aircraft"

If your going to operated transport catagory aircraft into a major Capital city, you really should know the rules!

[Capt Fathom]

Pilots refused to taxi up to the holding point even after requested by ATC.

What reason did they give for refusing the request?

[Bullethead]

If we turn our lights off will youse guys move up a bit??? :} :ok:

Regards,
BH.

[littlehurcules]

Hey CloudBuster - Maybe if you turn on more of your external lighting - we might be able to see you :}:}

Oh - thats right - never have you been guilty of anything that "may" have upset fellow pilots ....

But then again - no doubt you would have voiced your concerns over the radio:ugh:

[hongkongfooey]

That's OK. Yesterday poor old TIger was holding up the Rapid exit (B8) off 16R not sure as to whether he should give way to us as we taxied northbound up Bravo. Needless to say we had been instructed by Ground to hold short of Bravo 9.

True Krusty, it would be unusual for an A/C vacating the runway off a high speed exit to give way to a taxiing A/C.

See the " hold short of the hold point " a bit around here, could be because some of the clowns in this place have been known to attempt a T/O or Landing on the taxiways :ugh:

[fmcinop]

Isn't there an issue with their computer system or flux system caused by magnetic interference (or something like that) on a few of the taxi ways ie:B4...etc. There is some blurb on the Syd Airport chart about it which is why they hold so far back from the holding point on those 2 intersections.....
If they taxi up to the mark they end up with some sort of system failure.
I have flown with a few ex-Dash 8 pilots who have mentioned this issue.

This might explain the denial of ATC’s request to move forward..Maybe?

[Keg]

Whenever I've seen aircraft hold short by a wide margin I reckon they've held short so that they can still see the line out the front window not understanding that when they do that the line is still a long way in front of the nose.

Some of the QF drivers aren't immune to it either. I've had to prompt a couple of our F/Os when they've stopped a long way short.

One of the best things I recall a training captain doing for me during F/O training was walking along the line of the nose so that I could see where his feet intersected the glareshield- he was prompted to do this after I held short by a wide margin. I was very surprised at just how close I could get to the line and how far back I'd previously been holding. Perhaps this isn't as prevalent as I had thought it to be.

[Starts with P]

There is an issue at B3 and F holding points that can topple the nav systems of what seems to be only Dash 8s and SAABS. It doesn't happen all the time. Something to do with either the train or fuel line depending on who you ask.

That (might) have been the reason they were so far back if it was one of these.

While we are at it: If you know you will not be ready by the time you get to the holding point, then too bad. Taxi there and finish getting ready, don't taxi down B4 at 2km/h and delay everyone else on B and C just in case you may be able to roll on and go. :ok:

[Fuel-Off]

Starts with a P got it in one. There is a company directive to hold way behind the hold short line in order to stop the AHRS from going tango uniform for the reasons already discussed...

If you find it annoying, take it up with Flight Ops (more appropriate than this medium).

Fuel-Off :ok:

[ILS34L]

Hey CaptCloudbuster, you and that 76 of yours had miles of room to get past the Dash. As we taxied past behind you onto B4, your wing would have been nowhere near the Dash's tail if you taxied on.
And the reason we don't go right up to the holding point at B3 and F, is to avoid AHRS-related interference.
I'll be more than happy to provide you with the FOSO on it. So the guys in the Dash were exactly where they should of been.
Instead, why don't you ask the ground controller why he put the Dash there, knowing full well it would take them a while to get away due to the departing traffic at the time, having well known you guys would be coming up on Bravo.

[CaptCloudbuster]

Starts with P Thanks for the info - we were at B3. My apologies to the Dash 8 crew for casting aspersions.

Fuel Off If you knew how long asking "the horses mouth" to get an answer was likely to take you'd forgive my indiscretion.

ILS 34L In a 76' we are unable to see the wings from the flight deck

[Dragun]

Correct.

Next time you guys taxi past B4, B3 and F you will notice some little flags in pairs. When the SAABs and DHC-8's pull up to the holding point, the wing tips rest directly over these flags. The flags mark a fuel line that runs underneath the ground at those points that is electrically charged to prevent corrosion (so we're told). This screws with the flux valves in the wingtips that are resting right over them causing a 'HSI HDG MISMATCH' error message in the attitude and heading reference system that prevents us from taking off. Seeing as it can take a few minutes to clear, the company has directed us to stop with the wing tips remaining clear of the flags which is the easiest prevention method. This leaves the back of the aircraft hanging out and some obvious annoyance for those taxiing behind. ATC are aware of this which is why we are often sent to B1 and B2 when space allows.

If you guys have a problem with it, take it up with SACL and get them to fix the problem, or take it up with flight ops as has been suggested. To suggest that crews haven't noticed that they're sitting 10 metres from the holding point, or are doing it deliberately, is just demeaning.

[Mr Whippy]

Dragun has it.

You would have been well behind the dash in the queue so you would have had the 5 mins hold anyway.. what's the problem? It's like the jokers driving around the city trying to win the race to the next red light. You aren't really getting anywhere.

[CaptCloudbuster]

Dragun Thanks for the extra info. I take your fair criticism on the chin. I'll be sharing the info supplied here with my fellow crew.

[ILS34L]

Mr Whippy

The 767 was inbound.

[Mr Whippy]

ILS34L fair enough, like cloudbuster said, I'll cop that. Note to self: don't post after 1/2 bottle of rum.

[sockedunnecessarily]

littlehurcules,

But then again - no doubt you would have voiced your concerns over the radio:ugh:

What, a QF pilot complaining on the radio? No, surely not. :E

[Avid Aviator]

So that explains the Dash.

What's Virgin's excuse??

[Dragun]

Cheers CaptCloudbuster :)

[Altimeters]

Company NOTAMs for the Saab is to taxi as close as practically possible at B3 and hold 7m from the holding point at F. :ok:

[KRUSTY 34]

An electrically charged fuel line! Mmmm...:eek:

[empacher48]

An electrically charged fuel line! Mmmm...

Its called Cathodic Protection, every underground fuel storage tank has to have it, as well as metal pipelines.

The electric currents running through it are small, but will cause AHRS errors in some aircraft.

See here: Cathodic Protection (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathodic_protection)

[keepemseperated]

Instead, why don't you ask the ground controller why he put the Dash there, knowing full well it would take them a while to get away due to the departing traffic at the time, having well known you guys would be coming up on Bravo.
Not quite as simple as that. The dash may have been put there for various reasons - to give the Tower a prop as No1 at a holding point, so it can be used right behind a jet in a 'half' gap or when it's flatout (once in a while) you simply look out the window and pick the first available hole.
The other thing of note, is that over the last 12 months or so we have had an influx of new staff and the skill level is not what it was - lots of good operators, but lacking experience in such a busy position.

Cheers keepemsperated.

[Starts with P]

Instead, why don't you ask the ground controller why he put the Dash there, knowing full well it would take them a while to get away due to the departing traffic at the time, having well known you guys would be coming up on Bravo
Where should be go? B2? He'll block the inbound aircraft anyway. It is never as simple as that.

Now that everything is 107.5m back, the gaps are getting smaller and smaller.

[Mr.Buzzy]

Ive been parked at b4 close enough that I have not been able to see the hold line in front of me, ie. pretty damn close.

A message was passed to us by tower from ground that we were blocking off a 767. I kid you not; we released brakes and moved forward no more than a metre, maybe two. The QF 767 passed behind us.

My question is, if things are so difficult to judge from the lofty heights of the huge 767. Why do they taxi behind any aircraft at all waiting at B4? is a 700 series OK, when an 800 is not? What will happen when the 900s come? If it looks tight, get a wing-walker or follow me car right?

Somehow I think this whole "Virgin, please move up to the holding point" has become a bit of a sport lately.

bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzzzbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzz

[Enema Bandit's Dad]

Dragun has it in a nutshell but a quick explanation from the blokes in the Dash might have been appropriate. :)

[Capt Fathom]

I've heard they have a similar problem at London City Airport!

The airport is built on a disused wharf, and the old iron bollards can play havoc with the heading systems!

Airport Magnetism (http://www.flightsafety.org/asw/may08/asw_may08_p18-22.pdf)

:uhoh:

[Keg]

Buzzy, we may not be able to see our wings but we can see your tail and can often see where it is in relation to other lines on the taxi ways. EG: I know that our wings pass in board of particular taxiway markings and if I can see your tail this side of it (by even a metre) then I hold short. If I see your tail on the other side of that line then I know I'm right to pass by. Sometimes that extra metre or 3 (or 6 or 7) makes a difference.

Perhaps it wouldn't be a sport if you stuck your nose within a metre of the runway hold short lines in the first instance?!?! :ok:

[bubble.head]

While we are at it, how come Virgins taxi so slowly!

[Leatherdog]

Re: Virgin taxi speeds, not sure for the 73, but the E-jet used to have quite restrictive taxi speed limitations, which recently became recommendations. (Wet turning - 5 knots)
However the nose wheel on the 170 is prone to skidding during a turn on wet painted bitumen and concrete. Check out the deck angle next time, and it'll make sense.

As for not tucking into the holding point I have no explanations, I personally pull up with the hold lines in the corner of the L1 flight-deck window. Probably 1-2 metres short of the lines.

Cheers,

Leatherdog.

blessings on the blue skys

[Mr.Buzzy]

Okie doke Keg. Point taken:ok:

bbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[J0N0]

Yes its true that the AHARS will have problems and generate a heading mismatch but if your blocking someone then its not that hard to get around.

Not sure about the smaller ones but on the Q400 simply pushing "DG" at the holding point to the one thats going out of allignment then push it again when cleared to line up prevents the mismatch or for that matter just let them go out of alignment and once lined up a quick double push of the "DG" button will realign the the one that has gone 'out of wack.'

(I realise thats possibly applying more than the allowable amount of practicality to the situation though)

[regitaekilthgiwt]

Hmmm, if the ATC know that at times the a/c holding at 16R may have their tails hanging out a bit onto B due to fuel flux problem or whatever, why don't they send the QFs home via C as it doesn't matter is someone is queuing behind on B as mentioned before they will have to wait for the a/c with their tail hanging out anyway to t/o before em in the sequence anyhows..pretty long sentance that..
:eek:

Is annoying though when the bigger plane (737/320) are sitting with their tail a metre or two over that dashed yellow line marking the edge of B. In reality probably gonna miss it but can't take the chance! Perhaps 'wing mirrors' to be added to the LHS of the 76?

[hoss]

why dont the link guys stop being selfish and think about the mainline guys for once!

there will be a foso issued shortly requiring the use of 16R G intersection takeoff charts for all 16R departures. all qantas group turbo prop operations must use only intersections G, B1 or B10! to achieve this a letter of agreement has been put in place between qantaslink, SACL and air services australia. all qantaslink aircraft will preffix their callsign with 'shafted'. for example a first call to ground would be; 'sydney ground shafted qantaslink recieved quebec....'. The use of this phraseology will serve as a timely reminder to the ground controller that the more obvious holding points are not to be used.

any further questions or queries call mario;).

[OneDotLow]

My question is, if things are so difficult to judge from the lofty heights of the huge 767...

From the lofty heights of the 767 flight deck, if you are protruding out past the line I won't pass, if you are wholly the other side of the line, I will pass. Simple as that really.

Somehow I think this whole "Virgin, please move up to the holding point" has become a bit of a sport lately.

Often it is simply easier to ask ground if we can take C instead (as normally it would involved coordination with TWR controller to get the offending aircraft moved forward) and that is my preferred course of action. It's about reducing time spent with turbines burning, not sport as suggested.

If you can't move up for whatever reason, it's no problem. But without access to your specific FOSOs we will continue to ask if you can move up.

ODL