Comet and Trident at Wroughton [Archive]

aviate1138

6th Nov 2009, 05:44

Sadly the Science Museum is spending all its time on panicking about the myth that is Global Warming/Climate Change/Carbon footprints!

Science Museum - Home - PROVE IT! (http://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/proveit.aspx)

If one googles "science museum proveit numbers"

a whole series of vote rigging appears as the climate deniers/skeptics were
winning at about 6:1 and that is when the rigging began........however as of Fri 6th Nov 07:53 the count is..."1880 counted in so far, 6445 counted out so far"...

Sorry, thread jump........

Wroughton has quite an atmosphere to it. The Wiltshire countryside/sky around as one approaches and the state of the airfield makes you feel like a time warp has happened.
Well it did when I visited back in the late 90's. The Science Museum needs funds to repair the hangars.

Some of the waste of money wind farm grants would do nicely! :rolleyes:

beamender99

6th Nov 2009, 09:32

Wroughton is a large store of items they cannot display elsewhere hence it has only limited display information.
The site is an airfield and the hangers are well spread out.

Pre arranged tours only

Science Museum - About us - Science Museum at Wroughton (http://tinyurl.com/yk3o26s)

Two old 360 degree images to give you a taster.
www.bbc.co.uk/wiltshire/content/panoramas/nmsi_1_360.shtml (http://www.bbc.co.uk/wiltshire/content/panoramas/nmsi_1_360.shtml)

Photos and registrations
Science Museum - Wroughton (http://www.aeroflight.co.uk/mus/uk/u-z/wroughton.htm)

A great place to visit

DozyWannabe

6th Nov 2009, 13:30

Seriously guys, more time reading scientific journals and less time reading Richard Littlejohn.

It's a shame that the hangar is in need of repairs, so maybe we should think about some kind of fund if one doesn't already exist?

Amos Keeto

6th Nov 2009, 13:31

£275 to visit what is an annex to the Science Museum, which has free admission is outrageous! I don't know how long they have been doing this, but as far as I knew you could visit there at any time when staff were on site without charge. Suggest you wait until they have an event on there, like a vintage car or bus rally, which charges a nominal £5 entrance fee and then all the museum hangars are open for free.

This guide was only updated in July and admission was free then:

Science Museum - Wroughton (http://www.aeroflight.co.uk/mus/uk/u-z/wroughton.htm)

chevvron

6th Nov 2009, 13:37

Different curators have different ideas.
Way back in 1992, GATCO (Guild of Air Traffic Contol Officers) arranged a private visit, and visitors were invited to fly in. We did this in a Cherokee from Fairoaks.
Ross Sharp, the curator at the time, told us he would like to open the airfield and collection to visitors at weekends and invited any of us with FISO licences to help out. Sadly Ross was replaced within 2 years and this policy went out of the window with him.

Amos Keeto

6th Nov 2009, 13:42

I know Ross Sharp well and he was the only museum curator who knew how to run Wroughton. At my request, he had an open day where he got all the aircraft that were moveable, pulled outside and lined up for photography. Today even if you asked them to push the Gnat outside for photography, they would want a small fortune to do that! :* Alas, draconian attitudes, coupled with beauracracy, red tape and the dreaded Health & Safety, have completely destroyed the previous museums' policy of encouraging the public to visit and interact with museums. Whatever happened to public relations, publicity and goodwill. Museums are for educating and the public should be encouraged to visit, not put off by large fees for Group visits only.

chevvron

6th Nov 2009, 14:56

Ross always seemed to have great ideas for the development of Wroughton as a more accessible museum. Many of the hangars were air-conditioned in order to ensure a moisture free atmosphere to preserve the exhibits. We didn't visit more than half the hangars, but were told they had an extensive collection of cars in one of them (not saying which one though) and Ross had recently acquired some rail exhibits as well as some old radar equipment.
Did he just leave or was he pushed? Couldn't believe it when he walked into Farnborough Tower a couple of years later apparently working for SBAC.

wub

6th Nov 2009, 15:14

There were several open days at Wroughton in the 80s. I recall going to one which had a replica of Stevenson's Rocket running up and down on a track and there were all sorts of other exhibits, such as cider apple pressing.

I have photos of the Comet and the Gugnunc somewhere, I'll see if I can dig them out.

Skipness One Echo

6th Nov 2009, 15:15

Museums are for educating and the public should be encouraged to visit, not put off by large fees for Group visits only.

Surely a nominal entry fee and some willing volunteers would start to allow some money to trickle in. These aircraft and exhibits might as well have been scrapped for all the use they are to the world in this situation.
A bloody scandal. I am awaitng a reply from my email. BTW the website is utterly useless.

Very amateurish business model, quite sad.
Thanks for all the replies guys, much appreciated.

HEATHROW DIRECTOR

6th Nov 2009, 18:35

£275 entry fee? What, for one person? That's a) outrageous and b) crazy! Really sorry to hear that things have changed so much as we had a really good time.

It was 2005 when my wife and I visited. The hangars looked in good condition; in fact the whole place looked clean and smart. I took these piccies there:
Science Museum Wroughton :: Fotopic.Net (http://www.brendan-mccartney.fotopic.net/c1777442.html)

Planemike

6th Nov 2009, 18:48

HD.........

Good news, you can take up to 50 people for that price !!!

Bad news, it is "plus VAT", that will be £ 323.12 from Jan next year.

The last time I was there, was for the last PFA rally, 1991 ??? Hangars appeared to be in a fairly good state of repair.

One suspects that raising H&S issues and having exorbitant charges may have something to do with the the fact the Science Museum wants to discourage visitors. The collection was much more accessible in the 80's.

Pity, because there are some treasures in there. Where can you see a deH 84 and deH 89 together?

Planemike

nigel.hayes007

6th Nov 2009, 20:57

Why would a museum with such a fantastic collection of this country,s engineering achievements want to hide them away for most of the year is beyond me.
Anyone from the Science museum reading? i would love to read your views please .

rhajaramjet

6th Nov 2009, 21:24

Wroughton is, sadly, only a store for the huge collection of items that the Science Museum has accumulated over the years. It simply has no facilities (or staff) to handle large numbers of visitors on a regular basis. I've been fortunate enough to visit several times over the years and the slow deterioration over those years is very evident. What little money they manage to squeeze out of this useless government has to be balanced between patching up the buildings and preserving priceless artifacts for future generations. And they do have some truly fascinating stuff.
They were competing (in the last six) for an award of lottery funding (£50 Million) to turn the place into a world-beating facility, to inspire our kids and hopefully encourage them to follow in the footsteps of all the great scientists that made this nation what it once was. But the ITV sponsors, together with the Lottery admin morons decided that they were certain winners and so pulled them out of the competition at a late stage. Some cycle path or woodland glade in the Midlands got the money instead. And, sadly, the 'elf n safety idiots have squashed any hope of allowing visitors to some areas unless big money is spent. And we wonder why this nation is becoming a backwater of the United States of Europe !!
But whatever the cost, DO GO VISIT if you can find a way. It really is well worth it. Before Gordon sells it off.

DHfan

6th Nov 2009, 23:59

I hadn't realised things had changed that much. Last I heard they were having 3 or 4 open days a year, which I suppose shows how much notice I've been taking.

I went to an airshow there in the very late 80s and it was great, a real 50s atmosphere and most of the hangars open. It's a shame to think that doesn't happen now.

DCDriver

7th Nov 2009, 01:56

I went to their Open Day in September, the last this year, and was told that the Comet (and presumably the Groundgripper too) was in an adjacent hangar , which was in such a poor state of repair that it was closed to the public. Just as post 4 above says.

DeepC

9th Nov 2009, 08:18

But the ITV sponsors, together with the Lottery admin morons decided that they were certain winners and so pulled them out of the competition at a late stage. Some cycle path or woodland glade in the Midlands got the money instead.

The winners of the £50m tv vote competition were Sustrans with 79 walking/cycling projects nationwide, Connect2 (http://www.sustransconnect2.org.uk/).

Difficult to see how the Wroughton site would have been more popular in a public vote than 79 schemes which in many cases are town changing improvements directly relevant to everyone in each of the 79 neighbourhoods.

It just sounds like the Wroughton site should be more volunteer friendly to facilitate many more set dates in the calender at limited expense. More public involvement in the site would almost definitely increase goodwill in the form of donations for the upkeep of the site and exhibits.

DeepC

JimmyTAP

9th Nov 2009, 08:38

What little money they manage to squeeze out of this useless government has to be balanced between patching up the buildings and preserving priceless artifacts for future generations.

The same "useless" government that introduced free museum entry and therefore made many museums much more accessible to many more people.

UZZY

9th Nov 2009, 17:41

Move the a/c to Duxford ,appreciate some are the wrong genre for the IWM but at least they could be seen by the general public,& looked after by people who care. :ugh:

nigel.hayes007

9th Nov 2009, 21:28

Move to Duxford
Better still go to Duxford and ask them how its done!

nigel.hayes007

10th Nov 2009, 22:24

They already try to charge a load of money to get in,incidentally the arranged tour only lets you into the one hanger deemed safe enough for the general public,on the plus side this is the one with most of the aircraft in but sadly not the comet or trident.
It does have N7777G a rarther beautiful connie in it though.
Even though i have done nothing but gripe about Wroughton i have no axe to grind with the Science museum they are afterall preserving our heritage i just find it hard to accept this fantastic collection is hidden away.

Amos Keeto

11th Nov 2009, 10:12

£275 for any Group to visit one hangar is extortion in anyones language!

So only one hangar is safe enough for the public to visit, whilst the rest are liable to collapse at any minute destroying all those transport treasures?

The Goverment needs to do something here, but if they can't even get enough helicopters and equipment for Afghanistan, what hope is there?:rolleyes:

Planemike

11th Nov 2009, 14:36

Move the a/c to Duxford ,appreciate some are the wrong genre for the IWM but at least they could be seen by the general public,& looked after by people who care.

UZZY..... Can I ask you why the a/c at Wroughton should be moved to Duxford? There is already a goodly selection aircraft there on site. Surely it would be better to make the Wroughton site more accessible.

Planemike

Amos Keeto

11th Nov 2009, 14:51

At present the Wroughton collection is a collection of unrestored aircraft housed in hangars of which only one is accessable. Moving them to Duxford would not only make them all accessable and viewable, but also ensure they are restored and maintained. The DC-3 at Wroughton is a case in point. This particular aircraft is, I believe, one of the oldest survivors of its type and was the fifth aircraft delivered to United Airlines.
Together with the "Friends of the DC-3", an offer was made to fully restore this aircraft and repaint it in its original United Airlines colours, without any charge to the Science Museum whatsoever, other than the cost of the paint. They wouldn't even fund that!!! Their excuse was ' it's present livery is part of its history and that's how we want to keep it'.
I believe due to corrosion in the tail wheel mounting, this aircraft can't be moved anyway...so much for 'preservation'. :ugh:

Planemike

11th Nov 2009, 15:34

Yes fully understand what you are saying, just querying why the a/c need to go to Duxford, already have a good selection of a/c there. My feeling is that there should be a reasonable geographic distribution of a/c museums across the country.

Planemike

Amos Keeto

11th Nov 2009, 15:58

I thought I had already explained that in my previous post? :confused: Simply because (a) all aircraft, including the airliners have been lovingly restored and repainted there and there are few museums that can say that.
(b) they have large undercover viewing facilities and are well organised, with regular air shows, daily takings and shops inside all helping to fund aircraft restoration.
(c) The American Air Museum there was built with the help of a £6.5 million lottery grant, so is recognised by all as a major and important collection.

On the other hand, the Science Museum in London is free, yet their Wroughton storage facility has no facilities for making money, but tries to extort exorbitant amounts for groups to visit one hangar to compensate!
The so-called 'state of the art' Museum that was slated for Wroughton has come to nothing as the lottery grant allocation was withdrawn.The government won't put any money into it, so those aircraft will just sit there til they rot!
Okay, I agree spread museums around the country, but let's have some consistency here. We have a museum that 'can' and a museum that 'can't!

DHfan

11th Nov 2009, 17:38

Planemike

12th Nov 2009, 08:42

There are at least half a dozen aircraft sitting outside at Duxford looking neglected, some more so than others. There is nowhere near enough room to keep all the current exhibits undercover, without lumbering them with several more large airframes.

Yes, exactly, Duxford is an excellent museum and they do a great job. Without further building I cannot envision anywhere at Duxford that would accomodate the Constellation, Trident and Comet <anyway the latter would be duplication as there is already a Comet there> and that is without taking into account the other substantial number of exhibits at Wroughton.

The so-called 'state of the art' Museum that was slated for Wroughton has come to nothing as the lottery grant allocation was withdrawn.The government won't put any money into it, so those aircraft will just sit there til they rot!

IMHO it was a massive "over kill" that was costed in millions of £sss. It would have yielded another "theme park" museum. The hangars at Wroughton are fundamentally sound structures. What is required is a much lower budget project that will allow essential maintainace <not something driven by an unnecessary H&S adgenda>. Obviously there would be costs invovled in staffing the site while visitors were there. Part time opening would be acceptable, say 2 or 3 days a week. A number of successful volunteer run museums operate this way.

One suspects that the Science Museum is run by a management that has "mind set" which believes unless it can provide a "gold plated" service, nothing can or should be done. As pointed out in earlier threads quite good levels of accessibliity were achieved in the 80s and early 90s. It is a question having the will and desire to do it.

By comparision look at what has been achieved at Newark on what will undoubtly have been a relatively modest budget.

Planemike

PS...... [quote] £275 for any Group to visit one hangar is extortion in anyones language! [quote]

Amos, certainly agree with you on this. A charge of this type comes from the "mind set" referred to above.

Tempsford

12th Nov 2009, 17:27

Apart from Concorde, how many airliners in UK museums are under cover? the Dan Air Comet at Duxford (plus another Dan Air Comet at Wroughton).
I realise the size of the a/c involvedis a factor, but we do need a national airliner collection established to keep these treasures in good condition in under cover environmentally controlled conditions or it may be the Cosford massacre all over again.

VictorGolf

12th Nov 2009, 17:37

The Viscount (most of the time) and York are under cover at Duxford. However, as has been said, some of the other airliners are starting to look very "tired", the 1-11 in particular. I believe DAS were offered an ATP but declined it as they have enough on their plate with the existing airframes.

Planemike

12th Nov 2009, 17:44

Depends if you count a Hermes without wings and undercarriage, and a Ju52 as airliners. Wroughton probably has the best count of airliners under cover, in addition to those mentioned in previous posts there is the DC3, Boeing 247, Rapide and Dove. A national airliner museum (indoors) would be truly wonderful.

Planemike

Tempsford

12th Nov 2009, 18:06

Yup, after a JU52 and a Hermes without wings...there ain't many more under cover are there...

Windy Militant

17th Nov 2009, 15:44

First off I must stand up for the Guys and Gals that work at Wroughton. Having meet a bunch of them when the PFA rally was held on the site and also when I was on a stand for the Wiltshire Flyers at the centenary of flight event.
The problem is Kensington who for years have treated Wroughton like a gulag archipelago.
Have a search for Creative planet that's when NMSI suddenly started to take interest in green matters and thence Wroughton or rather the grant money for going green.
It's a disgrace that so many of the items there which are real gems cannot be exhibited properly. There are plans afoot to increase the display area but there are issues with the lack of funding to carry it through.
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m201/Peter_Anthony/Wroughton.jpg
Ross Sharp's a real character, an oppo and myself had a memorable lift airside to the tower in his Granada. It was the year of the really wet rally and the part of the trip going sideways over the grass was fascinating!

Trident man

21st Nov 2009, 13:04

They should let me look after G-AWZM.......she would get the care and attention she deserves,my CV for G-AWZK should do the trick? even though i was made redundant at the AVP in Feb 09 and not allowed on site to check on my baby!!!:rolleyes:

Proplinerman

21st Oct 2012, 21:08

I know this is an old thread, but I've only just come across it.

Anyway, twelve years ago, I was fortunate enough to pay a visit to Wroughton. This was in the days when it was easy and free to do so: I simply rang them up, they told me to come along at 10.00 on a Tuesday I think it was, I did so and duly got a personal guided tour (with about five other people) of the whole facility. I photographed nearly all the aircraft there and here is a link to most of these: Wroughton, 7th July 2000 - a set on Flickr (http://www.flickr.com/photos/48975048@N06/sets/72157631822240473/)

chevvron

22nd Oct 2012, 04:34

I've flown in that Devon! Farnborough - Bedford and return for my first day visit after I was posted to Farnborough.
In the days when military aircraft had 5 letter 'registrations' for flying overseas, VP975 was allocated MPDXM hence the 'M' on the fin. All of RAE Farnborough's fleet had one of these registrations starting 'MPDX_' although some were rarely used if ever, with Dakota ZA947 (previously KG661) being allocated MPDXY, Comet XV914 was MPDXA and BAC 1-11 XX919 was MPDXF.
They fell into disuse when RAE was allocated the official ICAO 3 letter designator 'RAE' callsign 'Nugget'.
The only exception as far as I recall was the MRF Hercules which was allocated a Lyneham 'registration' and I have to say I cannot remember what it was!
Nowadays of course, 'M' registrations indicate Isle of Man registry not military!!

Shaggy Sheep Driver

22nd Oct 2012, 18:20

DHfan

22nd Oct 2012, 20:58

As said on page 1 of the thread, one of the hangars is reputed to be "unsafe" for public access. If it's genuinely unsafe, surely it would be better if it wasn't full of irreplaceable exhibits...

603DX

23rd Oct 2012, 14:50

Seems that access for the public to the hangars full of fascinating aircraft has been a rather variable thing, for many years. Back in the 1950's it was still RAF Wroughton, a serving station with various duties, including maintenance work. In about 1955 my school CCF RAF section was on our annual camp at RAF Andover, not too far away, and our officer arranged for us to visit Wroughton by truck to see their aviation collection in the hangars.

There were at that time a number of WW2 warplanes in storage, some intact, others semi-dismantled, and we cadets were allowed free rein to clamber into several of them. I recall sitting in an intact German Fieseler Storch, a Fw190, and an Me109. There was also an Me163 rocket powered example, and a Japanese 'Ohka' kamikaze rocket powered suicide attack aircraft. There was a Vickers Wellington fuselage, and a much more up-to-date Canberra fuselage, possibly from the station's maintenance activities on Canberras. I imagine that several of the more 'exotic' aircraft have found their way into various museums around the UK over the years, and what photos I have seen of the current Science Museum collection do not appear to include them.

Planemike

23rd Oct 2012, 14:58

See msg # 15, not much seems to have changed in three years...........

Planemike

DaveReidUK

23rd Oct 2012, 16:58

I flew into a PFA rally some years ago and was amazed at the contents of the hangars (all open, no charge IIRC). Couldn't the Science Museum organise some volunteers to run weekend open days? If I lived near I'd be up for it!

At an Open Day about 5 years ago, predictably, the only aircraft hangar open was the main one with the Connie. But there was also access to one of the storage hangars, with a superb collection of British jet engines from the 1940s onwards.

brokenlink

26th Oct 2012, 20:20

Some years ago, when the "Warbirds" airshow relocated from West Malling to Wroughton I was one of the volunteers helping out a South African gentleman (still a good friend) in setting up the site prior to the show. During a lull in work I was lucky enough to get a look inside one of the Lamella hangars which, as I recall, was just inside a gate off a back road. Being Sodium Lamps when the lights were turned on it was very reminiscent of the final scenes of the "Raiders of the Lost Ark" Films when the Ark was being pushed into a huge storage shed. All these treasures appeared out of the gloom, prototype aircraft engines that did not make it into production, a mock up of a Concorde cockpit section and bizarrely an old BMC Van fitted out as a Television Detector to catch licence dodgers.
Happy days.

chevvron

26th Oct 2012, 23:49

Don't know if it's still the case now, but in Ross Sharp's day, all the hangars had aircon running permanently in order to preserve the 'exhibits'*
*Hesitate to call them that if you can't get in to see them.

gopher01

1st Nov 2012, 10:30

As one who lives in the village people who carp on about the facility seem to forget that it is a STORAGE facility and not a museum. As has been mentioned access can be gained when there is an event on the airfield, usually a motoring linked event,at no charge apart from the entry to the main do. The statement about the state of the hangars reflects the rather sad state of affairs where if anybody was injured on the site, they would undoubtedly sue the Science Museum for as much as they could get away with.
As to opening it up as a fuuly fledged museum facility one of the pointers raised against it was that access on the ground to the site is very limited, being at one side off a very narrow lane and at the other off a single road with only limited access actually onto the airfield. At the risk of being pronounced a NIMBY unless some drastic improvement could be made in ground access to remove a logjam through Wroughton village it is not realy viable, much as I to would like it to happen.
To end on a side note I was at the last Great warbirds meet at Wroughton having flown in with the static Herc display aircraft from Lynehan, long leg that one, watched the display Herc win the trophy for best display and watched the Arrows display down the valley at the back of the airfield, a great sight!

Proplinerman

7th Jan 2013, 09:49

There was another Comet preserved in the UK and that was a much rarer Comet 2, ex-RAF. It was part of the magnificent collection of aircraft assembled at Strathallan in the 1970s by Sir William Robertson, tho sadly it did not survive the break up of that in later years. Here's a link to a photo I took of it back in 1976:

Comet at Strathallan Sept 1976 | Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/48975048@N06/8355029840/in/photostream)

Preon

20th Apr 2019, 10:39

British Aviation Heritage Wroughton

The Science Museum’s Wroughton collection of Comet, Constellation and Trident are to be liberated the three aircraft are apparently available on a loan basis.
All the aircraft have been stored intact and under cover for a long period. ( thirty years?)however this development sounds uncomfortably similar to the Cosford civil aircraft solution.

KING6024

20th Apr 2019, 13:33

I was Mate of the Freight Ferry,MV Tipperary,which carried the Connie from Dublin to Fleetwood sometime between 1981 and 1984.Prior to that I can remember the a/c being parked at Dublin Airport.I seem to recollect she had been converted to a freighter with a large door on the port side.

Liffy 1M

21st Apr 2019, 18:02

The Constellation left Dublin in summer 1983.

https://live.staticflickr.com/4150/4991275402_2c7af5dc40_b.jpg

The AvgasDinosaur

22nd Apr 2019, 15:41

The Constellation left Dublin in summer 1983.

https://live.staticflickr.com/4150/4991275402_2c7af5dc40_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/8B4Ahs)
She was intended to be a star in the next series of Airline featuring Ruskin Air Services but the corrosion was allegedly to far advanced to return her to the air.
Hope it helps
Be lucky
David

betterfromabove

2nd May 2019, 20:54

Can anyone enlighten me on the current state of things at Wroughton with the aircraft collection? Is it still in limbo with no access to the hangars due to the asbestos?

Thanks
BFA

DHfan

2nd May 2019, 22:37

I've always assumed/understood the hangar was structurally unsound.
Has asbestos always been the the problem?

betterfromabove

2nd May 2019, 22:42

DHfan - I seem to recall reading on a similar thread that asbestos was the issue. I also see from LinkedIn they have hazardous waste experts actively working there.

cyflyer

3rd May 2019, 00:16

Blimey, this thread has been going for ten years ! Well done.
As I see that references have been made to the Comet, just wanted to remind anyone thats interested, that they've had the Bruntingthorpe Comet running , and next appearance later this month on the bank holiday Sunday. well worth a visit to see a live comet running, plus a VC10 and a few other bits and bobs for good measure. The photo is from last May's show as she taxyed past me following her take-off run. Yes, the wing did pass over my and other admirers' heads. Looking forward to this month's.

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/900x578/dsc_2327_479afb362965e76b407895f7eb527391d36d45ed.jpg

Quemerford

3rd May 2019, 05:52

The photo is from last May's show as she taxyed past me following her take-off run. Yes, the wing did pass over my and other admirers' heads. Looking forward to this month's.

Any dates? The Brunty website is hard to decipher.

cyflyer

3rd May 2019, 07:12

Sunday 26th May, links below, and August also. Honestly, I don't mind missing any other show, but I would not miss a Bruntingthorpe. Its not expensive, unlike most shows nowadays, you are in very close proximty to the aircraft because normal 'flying' rules do not apply, and pre-run up, you can freely walk around the aircraft, the atmosphere is very friendly with all the trade stalls etc, and just to hear that VC10, Lightning, Victor, and Comet running up makes it all worthwhile. Ear plugs recommended if you don't like noise, but then again you wouldn't be going if didn't like jet noise.

https://lightnings.org.uk/

https://www.bruntingthorpe.com/aviation/discover-explore/fast-taxi-days

Here's a couple of more shots from August's show, when it didn't stop raining, which made for some spectacular spray shots. The airfield's owner Walton, I think, announced free food from the food stalls for the crowds towards the end, as compensation for the rain and a couple of delays. What a gentleman.

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/700x466/dsc_2839_63d5737f2634b4a459faee439ee1b50f92628966.jpg
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/700x464/dsc_2871_9532c25bc48d74c2fa9de321d0b1d533f404cb9b.jpg
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/700x466/dsc_2887_4277e6ae27579873b1d36a58bcef8ab7c6206f45.jpg
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/700x468/dsc_2794_859f1a36f68124affaf278b936dd4792b44c1fd3.jpg

Quemerford

3rd May 2019, 08:43

Many thanks: it's marked on my calendar!

PS I know it's thread creep but I'll post some photos of the Wroughton jets later to redress the balance :)

Quemerford

3rd May 2019, 18:51

As promised, Comet and Trident from June 2004:

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/771x1024/a_234ae7bea7a39dac118069950bcc339144892c44.jpg

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1024x768/b_a3064768737826636735a4754f1aca59f11383f8.jpg

RetiredBA/BY

29th May 2019, 13:00

Having had several dealings with the Science Museum over the last few years, I can only conclude that the SM has absolutely no interest whatsoever, in aviation and are totally unfit to have care of this aspect of our heritage.

A Freedom of Information request revealed that there has been no aviation changes to the Kensington site for over 20 years. Yes, there is an amazing collection but NO credit can go the current management who have done nothing and totally fails to reflect the many recent scientific advances in aviation such as the use of carbon fibre in primary structures etc. Etc. They cant even get the speeds and capacity of Concorde correct !

Contrast that to the incredible progress made by many UK, indeed world wide, aviation museums who have NO public funding, Brooklands, Newark, Elvington, being just three examples. Of course, those museums are run by people, usually for no return, who are passionate and often very skilled in many aspects of aviation.

The hangar at Wroughton which houses the aircraft IS laid out for public access, but has, by neglect and disinterest of the current management, been allowed to fall into disrepair. Exraordinary that many museums are housed in hangars much older than Wroughton, eg Boscombe Downs. museum housed in WW 1 hangars at Old Sarum.

Strange , too, that the hangars could, however be used, for Top Gear filming !

So the SM are now asking other museums to display THEIR aircraft to “ improve public access” . I suggest the SM starts putting their own house in order and restores their own museum which WAS set up for public access..

For a start we need a new curator of aviation, one with the enthusiasm and knowledge of the previous curator, Ross Sharpe, unlike the current incumbent for whom the risk of even model aircraft flying on the airfield poses risks “too hard for him to bear “ as he stated in a letter to the local MP James Gray.

and, I ask, just what will the SM do with these three airliners if, as I suspect, no other museum has the resources or interest to take them into their care. Left to slowly decay out of public sight ?

They have about as much interest in aviation as I have in 18 th century arts and crafts which, apparently, is a key interest of the current Director of “Masterplan “ which seems rather unusual for a key manager of a SCIENCE museum.

DHfan

29th May 2019, 22:45

I've no idea how long the current management has been in place but I'm certainly prepared to believe they, individually or collectively, have no interest in aviation.
When we last visited the Science Museum in London, neither of us having been since schooldays, we were really looking forward to what we remembered as an Aladdin's cave of exhibits and, particularly in my case, the historic artefacts in the aviation gallery.
What we got was an "experience" solely designed for children with "press here to read/find out" etc. and the aviation gallery closed every hour for 20 minutes or so to give some sort of children's show, with a presenter.

We left after about an hour and have no plans to return.

Open Wroughton and we'll be there very, very quickly.

Amos Keeto

10th Jun 2019, 22:46

Concerned that the Science Museum at Wroughton are now asking for tenders to display their aircraft, I wrote this letter on 29th April addressing it to:

Matt Moore, the Wroughton Manager; Directors Robert James & Will Stanley, Science Museum and copied in to my MP Robert Buckland

Dear Matt,

I am a long-serving aviation journalist and author, locally based in Swindon, only a couple of miles from you.
I am sorry, but I have to express my despair and dismay at the lack of commercial enterprise in not allowing public access to view the Science Museum collection at Wroughton!
You used to have occasional Open Days, but not any more. This collection is supposed to be saved ‘for future generations’, so why are they hidden away and not being given access by those they are saved for?

I am now 69 years of age and would love to show my Grandson the collection, but when visits are requested, ridiculous sums are quoted or that old adage ‘Health & Safety is quoted to deter any visits.
Now you are advertising for partners to display the collection – not surprising, as if there was any initiative for commercial enterprise, you would open up the collection on a regular basis and charge a nominal sum.
I know you did not get the hoped for Lottery Grant to develop the collection into a proper museum, so that should have given you a wake-up call to try and do something to generate funds.
Meanwhile this collection remains hidden away and no doubt deteriorating due to lack of money, staff or any will to change things!
If properly organised this collection would generate much-needed tourism for the area and is completely wasted hidden away!

Yours sincerely,

I tagged the e.mail letter with a 'read receipt' - result stoney silence!!!!

Planemike

11th Jun 2019, 08:31

The Science Museum have a wonderful collection of aircraft at Wroughton, however they give the impression they are not interested in them and certainly use every excuse possible NOT to show them off. It is a complete contrast to the many enthusiast run museums around the country who do all they can to draw visitors in......( No need to list them. We all know them ).
AK In my view it is very discourteous of Matt Moore not to reply to your letter.

RetiredBA/BY

11th Jun 2019, 15:55

Matt Moore really should be shown the door, discourtesy is one of his better attributes !

I have documentary evidence, currently in my study, that he has lied to me, misled James Gray MP, and made ludicrous allegations of criminal behaviour against members of Swindon Model Aircraft Club who used Wroughton for 60 years. Those allegations were proven to be nonsense, completely untrue, by information received from within the Science Museum ITSELF using the Freedom of Information Act.

He also appears to be of a very nervous nature as he has stated ( in writing to me) that the risk of model aircraft operation at Wroughton has become too great to bear !

Further, I was present at Wroughton when a fullsize glider outlanded there. The pilot was refused an aerotow retrieve back to Dunstable by Moore as such posed “too much risk to the collection” stored there. Conditions were perfect for an aerotow, and I speak as a gliding instructor and tug pilot. Perhaps Moore should consider his minimal risk in comparison to that recently undertaken by the glider pilot, an army engineer ( major) relaxing in his glider after a tour in Afghanistan on IED disposal, arguably the worlds most hazardous occupation, and which saved countless lives and serious injury of our servicemen and women.

So, the tug was turned back, a trailer sent by road , glider derigged and trailered back to Dunstable and rerigged, all because of Moores total lack of willingness to allow the aerotow for pathetic reasons known only to himself. Moore totally pales in comparison to people such as that officer, frankly, he disgusts me.

Are people such as Moore really the best the Science Museum can find, I utterly despair of his like ?

treadigraph

11th Jun 2019, 22:41

We need a John Bagley?

ex82watcher

12th Jun 2019, 02:06

Took my young niece to The Science Museum a couple of years ago.We found a Mediator radar-suite from West Drayton there,but the Flight Progress Strips all seemed to be displayed in a random order.So, I thought that I would re- arrange them as they should be.But............they were all stuck down and couldn't be moved !

DaveReidUK

12th Jun 2019, 06:29

But............they were all stuck down and couldn't be moved !

That's probably the only reason they were still there. :O

BEagle

12th Jun 2019, 08:00

RetiredBA/BY, how right you are!

A colleague used to fly his Hawker Fury ISS at Wroughton, The Science Museum people couldn't have been more unhelpful if they'd tried. One of them accused him of flying 'aerobatics' over 'their' aerodrome 'without permission'.... Of course he was well above 500' a.g.l. and Lyneham were perfectly happy.

Eventually he had to move the aeroplane elsewhere due to the attitude of the Museum.

'Dog in the Manger' just about sums up their attitude.

RetiredBA/BY

12th Jun 2019, 15:01

Yes, indeed, that sums up the attitude of the management of the SM. Moore appears to have absolutely NO Understanding of the AIr Navigation Order and airspace categories. The 500 feet rule is beyond their grasp.

What was worse was that after the glider incident , and finding that aerotow recoveries were not permitted, I told SM that I would ask the BGA to advise glider pilots of the fact. Along comes a certain Ben Melham, a SM manager of some form, asking me, telling me, NOT to advise the BGA of the situation.

I still have not worked out the logic of his utterly pointless request/instruction, crass beyond belief ! ...... and WE taxpayers pay these guys !

And it gets worse. After discovering the nonsense I had uncovered at the SM. I wrote to the Chair of Trustees, Mary Archer, expressing my deep concern at the ineptitude I had discovered, once to Kensington once to her home address offering to brief her of the situation. No reply !

I also wrote to all Trustees, again, no reply.
Perhaps, just perhaps, there was some form of interference here from the Director, I have my suspicions.

Following a meeting with my MP, the PM, I had a meeting with the COO but he flatly refused to discuss Wroughton. Too embarrassed?

There is most clearly something seriously wrong, deficient, with the management of the aviation aspect of OUR Science Museum.

The facts speak for themselves and I have a considerable amount of documentation to fully verify my statements, both electronic and on paper.

RetiredBA/BY

15th Jun 2019, 13:15

Today is the 100th anniversary of the Alcock and Brown Transatlantic crossing.

The aircraft resides in the Science Museum at Kensington. What an incredible chance for a huge celebration , but what did Blatchford, the Director, and his team do to mark the occasion. Absolutely nothing as far as I know.

..... and what about a celebration , again with a huge potential fund raising, of the 75 th anniversary of the E28/39 flight at Cranwell in 1941. That aircraft, too, resides at Kensington. Again nothing.

I am utterly convinced that the present Science Museum management, so far as aviation is concerned are totally unfit for purpose.

Wander00

17th Jun 2019, 13:35

At least the Royal Mail noticed the centenary, just received a letter from UK postmarked with fact that it was posted on the centenary of the Alcock and Brown achievement

pax britanica

17th Jun 2019, 14:06

Very sad to read this, I ahvent been to the Sm for years but it does perhaps reflect the neglect of our aviation history in this country. I live close to Farnborough where the excellent Farnborough Air Sciences Trust has its (too) small museum with some fascinating exhibits but it seemingly never has as much money or promotion as it should. Ina very small compound between the museum building and the road are among others A Lightning, Jaguar, Harrier, plus assorted helis a Trident nose and a target drone all looking -and I mean absolutely no disrespect tot he people who work their) pretty much ready for a firedump because their just isnt the room to properly display them.

it just seems part of the general air of neglect we have in the UK for some of the better aspects of our past and there is no doubt we were once a real superpower in this field and it deserves better. Needs space I know but I was pretty shocked to read about the indifference the main conserving authority? for this kind of thing shows towards it. After all in 100 years time when we have no industry of any kind what are we going to put in a museum of the early 21st Century ? Airbus bits, built in UK , but not UK owned , some RR bits and pieces , an Easy jet check in bag measurer, A Ryanair seat back , a poster from 2050 commemorating the tenth anniversary of the opening of R3 at LHR . Shame if todays efforts just all rotted away

Innominate

17th Jun 2019, 15:07

I too was disappointed that more was not made of the Alcock & Brown centenary.

To try to give a bit of perspective, I understand that there is only one curator responsible for Aviation and Space, and the museum is preparing to move its collections out of Blythe House in London to a new store at Wroughton in 2020. According to https://group.sciencemuseum.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/SMG-Annual-Review-2017-18.pdf "once complete, the facility will be home to more than 80% of the Group’s collection and will be accessible to the public through tours, school and research visits." Preparartion for the move will be very labour-intensive and may not need much spare energy for exhibition work.

I suspect also that the museum is nowadays focussing on cutting-edge science and technology, rather than technology that was leading the world decades ago. Perhaps aviation technology is seen as having reached something of a plateau, although there is scope for highlighting the ways in which the industry is striving to reduce its environmental impact, and perhaps other developments such as new fuels.

RetiredBA/BY

20th Jun 2019, 08:57

Skipness One Foxtrot

20th Jun 2019, 09:57

Ina very small compound between the museum building and the road are among others A Lightning, Jaguar, Harrier, plus assorted helis a Trident nose and a target drone all looking -and I mean absolutely no disrespect to the people who work their) pretty much ready for a firedump
This remark is inaccurate and untrue, and I say that as someone who as pointed a camera at many a fire dump relic

DaveReidUK

20th Jun 2019, 17:36

This remark is inaccurate and untrue, and I say that as someone who as pointed a camera at many a fire dump relic

Indeed so.

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/265x178/zd280_6a85e178092aa3e3226065c4d120af2f14c21149.jpg
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/264x177/xw566_a3ee58488bee36751ab33032d2f9783a16d93d3f.jpg
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/275x181/xs420_24fb862e6a6ec26ba0d7cb1bbe31eda212a546b2.jpg
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/277x186/xw863_be601ae46d5bf803bb6a27fa6ac94985a60370e0.jpg
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/261x177/xp516_b34c1ba9731ceb0c30f2b757ecf358debac88208.jpg
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/265x189/xw241_4778e141b64770c3d36c8efbe4b89d2045b6039a.jpg
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/261x181/wv383_5395f7096861741370854403f2b6c2d76f6b0a4c.jpg

Amongst others.

https://www.airsciences.org.uk/aircraft.html

RetiredBA/BY

28th Jul 2019, 13:32

I have sent the enclosed letter to Matt Moore, Ian Blatchford the Director and Jonathan Newby the COO. I will keep you posted on any reply.

Dear Mr Moore,

The situation at Wroughton re the three aircraft you are trying to dispose of is being discussed on the professional pilot forum.

I have enclosed three typical examples.

Would you please respond to the aviation journalist. Would you please advise us why, as the manager at Wroughton, funded by we taxpayers, you did not bother to reply to the letter. The public has right to expect professional and courteous responses. A response from Robert James and Will Stanley is also expected. Your reply, or lack of it, will be posted on the public forum .

Yours faithfully,

Well here we are 5 weeks after I wrote to Moore and copied in his boss, Ian Blatchford. As usual the Science Museum people have not bothered to respond, they really are the most arrogant of people, arrogance matched only by their incompetence and disinterst so far as aviation is concerned.

I have just returned from Moscow, where I was a guest of our Defence Attache who took me to a couple of aviation museums. What I found in the (superb) aerospace hall in the Moscow nations park,was that where guides could speak English they were only too pleased to discuss, with great pride and enthusiasm, those exhibits in their care, even inviting me to sit in a seat used on a Soyuz mission. Now, try finding anyone in the Aviation Hall at Kensington,who has the slightest knowledge of, or interest in, their exhibits !!

The handling of our aviation heritage in the care of the Science Museum is a national disgrace, something I would be delighted to elaborate on and explain to any forum.

In comparison the STEM marquee at RIAT was brilliant, with many passionate , enthusiastic hosts from major companies and universities, trying to get my grandson away was an uphill struggle !

Planemike

28th Jul 2019, 14:33

Wonder why they choose not to reply....??

The AvgasDinosaur

28th Jul 2019, 14:44

Wonder why they choose not to reply....??
Too embarrassed to admit their errors and or incompetence ??
I.M.H.O.
Be lucky
David

RetiredBA/BY

7th Aug 2019, 17:39

I made a Freedom of Information request as to what was happening to the large aircraft at Wroughton. They HAD to reply as it is their legal responsibility to do so.

Well surprise, surprise, they had only ONE offer and that was not practical so those aircraft are not moving. I think most of us could have told Blatchford that was a likely outcome., and, it only confirms that, so far as aviation is concerned, they haven’t got a clue and are totally unsuited to have charge of this element if our aviation heritage .

So Blatchford, wishes to increase public access to these aircraft, simple, old chap, reopen the neglected museum at Wroughton, not exactly rocket science.

As a comparison, two Brits are flying a Spitfire around the world, but is beyond the competence of the SM management to enable a glider recovery from an airfield, well messrs Melham and Moore, consider such an operation “ dangerous”. What utterly pathetic, snowflakes.

....and we taxpayer pay these guys !!!!!!

Quemerford

7th Aug 2019, 17:58

Well I guess this kind of forces their hand if they wish to increase public access?

RetiredBA/BY

22nd Nov 2019, 09:37

More extraordinary behaviour from M Moore at Wroughton.

On behalf of the Honourable Company of Air Pilots, I requested in a letter to the director, a visit to Wroughton to view our aviation artefacts.
Five weeks later I received a reply stating we have to wait 4 years before they can allow it. They claim to be too busy with their internal moves.

Compare:

We were recently invited to RAF Marham, which is going under considerable transformation and receiving the lead elements of the F35 force , a squadron and the OCU. The station commander there, STILL gave of his time and made the Company most welcome.

Under Moores “leadership “ he asks us to wait 4 years. What asinine stupidity.

Wander00

22nd Nov 2019, 14:38

Methinks that Mr Moore has forgotten who pays his probably not inconsiderable salary

happybiker

23rd Nov 2019, 14:20

If Grant Shapps gets back into office in Transport, would alerting him to this shameful management of the nation's heritage be likely to assist in allowing public access.

RetiredBA/BY

29th Nov 2019, 19:58

If Grant Shapps gets back into office in Transport, would alerting him to this shameful management of the nation's heritage be likely to assist in allowing public access.
Great idea, If, when Shapps gets back , I WILL be in contact with him,
The clueless muppets who have charge of the NMSI need to be called to account for their incompetence,

So far as aviation is concerned they are all utterly clueless.

Not sure Moore gets much of a salary. Peanuts, monkeys etc.

Gordomac

30th Nov 2019, 09:55

Auxtank

4th Dec 2019, 09:35

Sorry to stretch the thread, a bit, but is this place the same as the old, location of Princess Alexandria's RAF Hospital , Wroughton. Near Swindon in Wiltshire ? Had the good fortune of being treated there in '68 but on a memory whizz about in the nineties , discovered that the Hospital location was now an Exec Estate. Wouldn't want to occupy the 4-bed. two bath, built on the site of what was the Hospital morgue !

Yes. On the site of the original hospital is the exec housing you observed as well as a large hotel named The Alexandria - which I have stayed in a couple of times and, it has to be said is very good.

Reading this thread is sickening - what the hell is going on at Wroughton? - sounds like gross incompetence.
Well done those in a position to put pressure on those who need it.

Is is possible to do some sort of petition / no confidence movement of some sort?

Wander00

4th Dec 2019, 15:08

I made a comment about this debacle in a letter to Flypast. Robert Pleming responded that the Air Heritage Working Group are on the case

DaveReidUK

4th Dec 2019, 18:33

Yes. On the site of the original hospital is the exec housing you observed as well as a large hotel named The Alexandria - which I have stayed in a couple of times and, it has to be said is very good.

Not wishing to be picky, but the hospital, hotel and princess (cousin of the Queen) are all Alexandra.

Alexandria is an Egyptian port, named after the town in Scotland. :O

Auxtank

4th Dec 2019, 20:05

Not wishing to be picky, but the hospital, hotel and princess (cousin of the Queen) are all Alexandra.

You are the king of picky and we'd be lost without you; it is indeed Alexandra Place Hotel - and Alexandra Hospital. Written earlier in haste.

Back to the subject in hand; Wander00, good to know.

Gordomac

5th Dec 2019, 09:03

Thanks Auxtank & David. When I started out, I couldn't even spell Pilot. Now, I are one.

Paul Lupp

6th Dec 2019, 07:13

Not wishing to be picky but my younger daughter was born in what was known as "PMH" for those who lived nearby.

Sadly a change in circumstances meant a move away from the Swindon area in the early 1990's (before the Designer Outlet shopping mall existed) but I do go back from time-to-time. It is very sad to see what has become of the Wroughton site, not sure what state it was in when I lived nearby but I never had the time or money to enquire about visiting back then. It was also a shock to find a massive new hospital had been built on the other side of town and the old Princess Margaret Hospital had been demolished - I don't recall a Princess Alexandra hospital nearby !

Apparently the new hospital had only the same number of beds as the old one and was soon full to capacity, little wonder in view of the way that Swindon has grown over the past 25 years

DaveReidUK

6th Dec 2019, 08:15

It was also a shock to find a massive new hospital had been built on the other side of town and the old Princess Margaret Hospital had been demolished - I don't recall a Princess Alexandra hospital nearby !

The two Princesses were about three miles apart as the crow flies, somewhat further by road.

Wander00

6th Dec 2019, 15:38

I did once fly a Canberra into Wroughton, 66/67 time. WD935,, still in black and grey and the 6th B2 buit. ISTR it was a couple of thousand pounds heavier than a standard B2, having been beefed up as the LABS trials aircraft. I believe it went to the St Athan museum, now closed and I think only the cockpit section survived

Landflap

8th Dec 2019, 09:40

WanderOO you ole boaster, albeit thoroughly enviable. For the "nostalgia " bit of the thread, I happen to know that Gordo went in to Wroughton in '68 in his Vauxhall Viva XL and fell, madly, for his nurse on Ward 10 !

RetiredBA/BY

8th Dec 2019, 12:00

Yes.

Reading this thread is sickening - what the hell is going on at Wroughton? - sounds like gross incompetence.
Well done those in a position to put pressure on those who need it.

Is is possible to do some sort of petition / no confidence movement of some sort?

It is indeed the gross incompetence, combined with proven dishonesty( I have the documentation to prove that) by the manager Matt Moore who has absolutely no idea about the value of the aviation heritage hidden away at Wroughton for so long. No idea at all and even less interest.

What is worse, is that the Director, Ian Blatchford appears to condone this incompetence as does the DCMS “Head of Museums” Nicky Guy both of whom ignore my correspondence about these issues.

The previous director was dismissed for her failures, so incompetence at the NMSI is nothing new.

I guess they know they have no answers to the issues I have uncovered.
Add to that, the director of masterplan is an expert on 18 th century arts and crafts, just the thing needed for a SCIENCE museum. Great stuff for the V and A maybe but not, surely, for science.

Amos Keeto

27th Dec 2019, 23:27

Not wishing to be picky, but the hospital, hotel and princess (cousin of the Queen) are all Alexandra.

Alexandria is an Egyptian port, named after the town in Scotland. :O

Correct - the hotel on the site of the former Princess Alexandra Hospital at Wroughton is called " Alexandra House".
Re the Science Museum Collection at Wroughton, I am also very angry at the lack of access to the collection there and have been in touch with Matt Moore and also his superior at the Science Museum in London. The reason he said ' wait for four years' is because they are currently constructing new buildings there to house the collection as the current hangars are deteriorating and cannot accept visitors under Health & Safety regulations. The first new hangar is nearly complete and the entire project is scheduled for completion in 2023 with all the aircraft moved it. Only then will the collection be opened to the public. Hope this helps.