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View Full Version : VB hires Ejet Direct Entry Captains


WhirlyMan
5th Nov 2009, 05:15
Claiming that lead times are insufficient for training of Ejet Captains as a result of an addition of 2 new E190s to the fleet, VB have decided to hire 4 Direct Entry Captains onto the Ejet..... :mad:

Tell me that out of the 400 or so FOs in the company, that not one of them were upgradable????

It appears that the smoke and mirrors that occured earlier this year has given the dream team more confidence to pull out more :mad: out of their hats.

P-air
5th Nov 2009, 05:34
Congratulations to the lucky guys.

Good on VB for taking the courage to employ experience.

WhirlyMan
5th Nov 2009, 05:43
Yes at the same time, throw :mad: on loyalty. Did I mention these guys ar to be based in BNE when there is a list as long as the nile of commuters to SYD/MEL who are trying to get back to Brissie? Why not base these DECs in PER for instance where few seem to wanna go?

Nothing against experience. When VB first started Ops on Ejet perhaps there is justification.

Dehavillanddriver
5th Nov 2009, 06:14
Think you might be a tad premature there old son. The letter I got from the Feds today said that there had been no decision either was as yet.

Toluene Diisocyanate
5th Nov 2009, 06:33
*cough, cough* Hope you're not one of the 4, Phil.:rolleyes:

It's just a "jobs for the boys" ploy by the ex-SAW boss in times where there are sufficient upgradeable FO's already employed. Some with excess of 10,000hrs airline command AND type-rated.
Not to mention the commuters that will be gazumped from returning to BNE!

He turned up with lots of huffy-puffy.
If he follows through with this, the credibility and respect he'll receive from his charges will be..............

ZERO!

He's just another wood-duck, IMHO.

Aussie
5th Nov 2009, 06:49
Are we talking about the ex SAW Chief pilot...? Hes not at VB?

whogivesa????
5th Nov 2009, 07:41
P-air, shove your Sky air world experience:mad:

The only internal offer for commands stated only SYD, MEL or PER, nothing in BNE:ugh:

There are E-jet Captains in SYD who are there because the company said there are no BNE bases. I know 4 E-jet SYD captains who have been trying to get back to BNE for almost a year and they are now stuck in SYD longer.

And what about the E-jet FO's who have 1-2 years on type (plus loads of other experience) who have been loyal to VB and just got screwed.

Chocks Away
5th Nov 2009, 07:58
I think there's gonna be plenty of EMB work to go'round AND more, shortly. Hold onto your britches.

Break Right
5th Nov 2009, 08:15
P-Air having known where you come from in your previous life you should be made very welcome in VB. Not.:mad: Flying in HK make you experienced!! Please.:ugh:

edited spelling for the spelling police!!!

fury
5th Nov 2009, 08:21
The Virgin blue pilot management team (the conga line) are all 'as low as a snakes arse in a wagon rut' and this dispicable act continues to confirm that !!!!!!!

KRUSTY 34
5th Nov 2009, 09:05
Does the DJ pilot's EBA not allow promotion (or in this case DEC's) outside of seniority if there are suitabe and upgradeable F/O's within the company. As Whirlyman said, it's unbelievable that there are not at least 4 F/O's that would fit the bill!

I think someone is having a giant lend.:ok:

Myriad
5th Nov 2009, 09:08
What about those seconded B737 pilots who went to the ejet fleet, became checkies and have now agreed recently to stay on for longer on line captain pay!!!!!

That's right, they have forgone the 16% allowance to keep their blue badges!

I'm sorry, but what a bunch of :mad:!!

Another example of a bunch of pilots undermining our terms and conditions. They should be named and shamed.

Mr.Buzzy
5th Nov 2009, 09:21
Are you sure about that Myriad?
Seems the KKK have struck again!

bbbbbbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

P-air
5th Nov 2009, 09:25
This is going to be a good thread.

intelligentpilot
5th Nov 2009, 09:34
Break Right and whogivesa????

Go easy there fellas. Flying out of Hong Kong into China is excellent experience. I can assure you one year flying here = 4 years flying around Australia (atc etc) Ive done both. But this is not a "my experience is better than yours post"

Take your grief out on your policy making management, not the experienced guys who are simply accepting a job offer.

Does your union have a hiring ban? I think not.

Good luck to everyone.
And for the record I am pro seniority and promote from within. But if a DEC job is advertised and accepted by an individual you can not blamb them.

whogivesa????
5th Nov 2009, 10:15
intelligentpilot,

DJ never advertised for DEC's for the Ejet, the only advertised for 'Type Rated'.

The internal advertised Command positions were for Sydney, Melbourne or Perth, not Brisbane which these 4 pilots have been given!

Some of those pilots affected by this have also flown internationally, so who cares if these DEC guys may have flown in and out of Hong Kong.

No there is not a hiring ban, however the EBA states in
Section 4 Career Opportunities
4.1.1 Vacancies for positions on any aircraft type will br advertised internally. Applicants will be given details about the relevant skills and experience needed for the aircraft and the base location. Internal applicants will be given priority over external applicants provided the internal applicants have the requisite skills, performance history and experience. Date of joining will be used to distinguish between internal candidates followed by performance history and experience.

4.1.2 Nothing contained in the Agreement will prevent Virgin Blue from hiring people external to the business on aircraft types within its Australian domestic operations once it has complied with clause 4.1.1

So yes the EBA does allow for DEC so long as the company complies with 4.1.1, which in this case it hasn't complied.

The company failed under 4.1.1 due to;
1. not advertsing internally that Brisbane was available.
2. it has falied to give internal applicants priority, when these internal appliants have meet the requirements stated in 4.1.1

If the internal applicants do not meet 4.1.1 and the company has to employ DEC then they should go to the base that needs them the most which is Sydney. If there are Brisbane captain positions then they have to go to the Sydney captains who have bidded for a Brisbane base, which as I said there are Ejet captains in Sydney who are waiting to return to Brisbane.

yowieII
5th Nov 2009, 11:18
Have they actually been "given" the positions:confused:

drshmoo
5th Nov 2009, 12:54
VB management bow your heads in shame - they cant multitask whilst they are in the trough can they?

ozangel
5th Nov 2009, 14:12
Fail to see that there is not enough experience amongst the current EJET/Boeing FO community to fill these positions??

intelligentpilot - regardless of your petty justifications - one year flying over there = 4 years flying over here...

In other words, you are yet to fly into the side of a mountain?

If true - it's just another attempt by a desperate bunch of short sighted accountants, trying to ensure their bonuses.

As for the recruiting 'experience' s#!t - what a load of bollocks - there's not a VB 737/EMB FO that I wouldn't trust to make a 'command' decision with the lives of those I care about most - and have done for many years now.

Insult the FO, insult the man (or woman) who signed them off - disagree? Grow some 'macadamia cookies' and stop being so desperate!!!

greenslopes
5th Nov 2009, 19:25
Good post Oz Angel. P.Air, how do you think you would feel if you were bypassed not for experience but for favoritism......... During the last EBA VB pushed out the line of the Egalitarian attitude and negotiations based on "Trust"........... Unfortunately this leopard doesn't change his spots no matter how many times the deck chairs change.
As for the head of HR....whats his name ....Spanner?, well they've really thrown a Spanner in the works this time.
What a great way to look after the troops who in the GFC as per mangmnt requests used all/most outstanding leave, leave without pay,RORO.

Congo line of mngmnt, yes well from the outside looking in it does appear that way. It will be interesting to see from an outsiders perspective how this is resolved. Hopefully the representational bodies of the pilots can resolve this in the positive for the long term pilots waiting for their Command.

Good Luck

apache
5th Nov 2009, 19:44
NOW is the time for the VB pilot body to stand up and be counted!
If not, then you ONLY have yourselves to blame. I for one would walk tomorrow IF this course of action was allowed to happen.

A VERY low act by management if true.

why is it that PILOTS have to cover the mistakes of management time and time again, yet management get the bonusses, and pilots get lowered terms and conditions?

KRUSTY 34
5th Nov 2009, 19:50
Whogivesa????

Re: clause 4.1.2 my point exactly.

Don't get mad or emotional guys, just follow the letter of the EBA. I've seen airline managements over the years trying his sort of thing from tme to time. A peckerhead in HR or some other pencil D!ck thinks it would be a good idea to bypass due process just because they think they can. Or there is some other agenda. Jobs for mates maybe? They do this because too many people are unaware of ther rights.

If There is a breech of the EBA get your reps and the AFAP to lodge a dispute with the IRC. Hopefully lawrie and the team have looked at that already. If the threat of that action doesn't make this thing go away, then the Commision will. That is of course if the company are dumb enough to push it.

Don't get mad, get even. As for you propoents of DEC's or promotion above other suitably qualified candidates, based on the assumption that you somehow walk on water. You're nothing but opportunistic queue jumpers. Go crawl back under the rock from which you came. Must be a pretty lonely existance up there with your arse impaled on the top of the pyramid! :E

blacksmoke
5th Nov 2009, 20:45
I still laugh when guys say I have been on the jet 1 to 2 yrs !!!, so am ready for a cmd. I think alot of people have forgot what it used to be like to get a jet cmd. 9 to 10 yrs was not uncommon, and I must admit, after flying with, and training alot of these new guys, especially ones straight off light twins/turbo props, I think a min of 3 to 4 yrs as an f/o would be a safer option. Than again, I suppose flying around Aust is very straight forward, and we are just very lucky we dont get any real weather issues here.

greenslopes
5th Nov 2009, 20:59
Oh yes...all hail to the ole guard. Not like that in my day. We lived in box middle 'o road, milked 400 cows bfore brkfst and ate gravel sanwiches.

Oh dear.

pigdriver
5th Nov 2009, 21:11
Blacksmoke, I couldnt agree more!!! Greenslopes, give it time son, oneday you will get there.....
Back to the thread, I dont disagree with an airline bringing in DEC's, as long as there is no presently employed f/o's that forfill the company cmd requirements. If guys do meet these requirements, they should be given the opportunity to upgrade.
Good luck.

drshmoo
5th Nov 2009, 21:13
3/4 year F/Os are in abundance at VB too.


AFAP have been close to useless with the debarckle earlier this year forcing F/Os out of EBA and senioroity to move from melbourne and take pay cuts to go on the EMB etc.

greenslopes - you forgot, had to walk up hill to school both ways.

God bless the old guard - Qantas used to advertise for pilots in the paper back then too!

P-air
5th Nov 2009, 21:21
whogivesa??? I think you forgot to add, "and we happy sky air world failed and you all guys and gals lost your jobs"

End of the day, be thankful your management team kept all of you employed, cant recall any pilots being made redundant at VB during the recent gfc.

Dont go getting all insecure, if VB offer DEC, it would be of temporay nature to fill a gap (contracted term). Got to love the comments about shoving experience, when on the other side of the coin you guys complain when recruits straight out of school with $$$ go buy themselves a job on the right hand seat. "need bush time" i hear you cry. hypocrites.

Greenslopes good point re favoritism. Like it or not, we have to get used to it, cos its part of our industry, and be in it long enough we all get to experience it, some more than others. Just comes down to how you deal with it.

Have every faith in your HR team, they must do a good job, and you all quite correct, my experience wont even get me an interview let alone DEC.

Fly safe,

SilverSleuth
5th Nov 2009, 22:18
IF this goes ahead the New MFO will lose all credibility and respect.
To stand up in forum meetings and ask guys to help us out by taking all leave, Fo's take 50% pay cuts to go to that 777 thing and 737 Fos take pay cuts and move cities to fill EMB slots, only then to do this is disgraceful.

What a formula. Employ 4 mates from SAW and piss off 800 pilots.
Yeah that makes sense.

KRUSTY 34
5th Nov 2009, 22:31
P-air

Before we get all warm and fuzzy about just how good a job DJ management did keeping people employed, perhaps we should look at the real deciding factors.

DJ were between a rock and a hard place with their crewing of the E-jet. A situation created wholey by the decision to screw pilots out of more of their terms and conditions. 20% less to fly the jungle jet. Some may argue fair enough, but it had consequences. Why take an E-jet command when for a large number of F/O's a 737 command was just around the corner. Why fly a jet for the same company and have to take a paycut for the privilige! Is it any wonder that most chose to stay put.

So, DJ decide to recruit externally, fair enough also. Suddenly there are approx 50 737 pilots in surplus. Threats of retrenchments follow. If you don't move to the E-jet or (God forbid VA as a CFO!) then you may be out of a job. Wait a minute! As a DJ 737 F/O I have seniority to most of the E-jet F/O's, they'll have to go first. Oh no says management, redundancies are based on fleet not seniority. What a blatent lie!!! The AFAP told them so, but management still insisted.

So what happened? Nothing, that's what. These clowns soon realised that it was a battle they couldn't win. Some pilots, either lacking spine or any sort of appreciation of the true nature of events allowed themselves to be disadvantaged. Some people you just can't help. For the remainder, well done by sticking to what was true.

The only reason DJ kept on the surplus was because they had no choice. All they had to do to avoid this whole bullshit episode was to offer a comparable wages and conditions package for the E-jet. In the big scheme of things the cost would have been more than offset by the goodwill it would have generated.

But as I said, some people just can't be helped.

The_Pharoah
5th Nov 2009, 22:34
'small digression to defend my profession':

quote:
"If true - it's just another attempt by a desperate bunch of short sighted accountants, trying to ensure their bonuses."

Lets get two things straight:

1. Accountants very rarely get bonuses...and if they do, its very little; and
2. decisions such as what you're talking about are made by SENIOR MANAGEMENT (the majority of whom are NOT accountants except for the CFO), especially operational managers/GMs with limited input from accountants.

Thats like me saying 'the pilots who serve drinks/food on the plane aren't very good" or something (generalisation). :}

*rant off...we don't need to see identification, these aren't the droids we're looking for, move along...move along*

Goat Whisperer
5th Nov 2009, 22:47
I think it is worth clarifying, before misunderstanding adds surplus fuel to this fire.

VB pilots on the whole understand it may be necessary to employ DECs to cover the previously-unplanned arrival of two E190 airframes. If these chaps are taken on a contract basis, while there is insufficient time to train EJet pilots they enable VB to take on more flying and secure more jobs for VB pilots. This surely can't take more than 3-6 months. They would be welcome to stay on as permanently employed FOs once the required tenure is up, and wait in the same queue as everyone else for their permanent commands.

If they are offered permanent DECs then this is the slap in the face for all VB FOs that is upsetting not only the FO ranks but the pilot body at large. There is no clear indication from the company what basis their employment is proposed to be.

That they would be offered the most desired base, Brisbane, while there are EJet captains waiting to return to the sunshine state just adds insult to injury.

KABOY
5th Nov 2009, 22:51
Internal applicants will be given priority over external applicants provided the internal applicants have the requisite skills, performance history and experienceI think everyone needs to look at their peers regarding this, what was the failure rate on the EMB when it was introduced?

Look at the root cause, as it sounds like some of your blue badge peers have a lot to answer for.

Or maybe your recruitment department has the wrong philosophy on pilots.:hmm:

OpsNormal
5th Nov 2009, 23:26
What a formula. Employ 4 mates from SAW and piss off 800 pilots

So (at least a couple of the members of) the four are doing it again, albeit in a larger operation this time.

Oh dear, all the best chaps. I hope the Feds actually do something about it this time, they sat on their hands and were very quiet in March/April..... :=

The Baron
6th Nov 2009, 01:44
OK everybody,

The facts are, as of this morning, it hasn't happened. It DOESN'T mean it won't happen. If they have any sense,(not yet ever) , management will assess just how much this stupidity will cost in dollars and cents. Absolutely, guarranteed this will end up in court if they go down this road. Bypass pay for 80+ pilots plus legal fees, bad press and the "I am an army of one brigade" will make it so prohibitively expensive they would be utter morons to persist with this tactic. Not to mention what will happen when we start negotiating the next EBA.

Mind you, it will make a great second installment for a youtube video...:E

hongkongfooey
6th Nov 2009, 02:25
In other words, you are yet to fly into the side of a mountain

Sorry Oz, explain to me like you are adressing the 5 y/o who wrote this, what exactly do you mean by this statement :confused:
If you ever venture out of the 95% benign wx and comparatively great, english speaking ATC, you might see that intell pilot is not too far off the mark ( maybe 2-1 not 4-1 though )
In spite of this I am having trouble understanding what VB managements " jobs for the boys " attitude ( which to my knowledge has not changed since day 1) has to do with taking your frustrations out on pilots who fly out of HK :ugh:
Unless there is a recruitment ban ( BTW, the last one up here, CX and KA, was ignored by numerous Oz pilots ) what do you expect these candidates to do ?

waren9
6th Nov 2009, 06:22
I fly into Asia a few times a month on average and dont really see that it makes me more experienced or gains experience any faster or flying there is somehow more valuable than flying somewhere else.

Yes, I agree it is different experience but it is not "better".

And even if it was acually somehow better, so what? Its not like you have to deal with most of the challenges down here that flying up there brings.

Big deal.

Certainly no reason to employ a DEC over an experienced and capable F/O that passes his checks well.

wateroff
6th Nov 2009, 07:07
Kiddies,

I think as it was breifly mentioned - it is quite possibly, more than likely, a timing issue to ensure the airframes are flying, and not pissing blood sitting on the tarmac. Big picture, short words, big letters. Look at moi, look at moi, stop focusing on yourselves for a change - being pilots I know, it is all about moi - Kimmy. But an aircraft on the ground costs money, and eventually jobs - been there done that. So take a breath, and wait

KRUSTY 34
6th Nov 2009, 07:23
So what are you saying wateroff, give them the green light regardless of whether it's right or wrong. If that's the case, then why don't we simply give management the go ahead to do whatever they want irrespective of who's stuff up it is!

If pilot groups gave the OK for a breech of an EBA/Award condition everytime management cried poor (as a result of their own incompetance I might add), then pilots would have no Lifestyle/Terms and conditions left. Something, airlines have been working steadily towards for years.

Wake up. Know your adversary!

Muff Hunter
6th Nov 2009, 08:36
this aint anything new

jetstar having been hiring dec's (ex blue shirt mates) for years under the guise of lack of experience within the ranks. and when they get experience (the fo's that is) they up the command req's to bring in more blue shirt mates!!

and don't think for a minute that the afap will do anything, they are a disgrace to the industry.

unfortunately, airline managers will continue to bend us all over until we all stand up and make ourselves heard, LIKE THE QF ENGINEERS.....until then make sure you bring your own lube!!!!!!!

wateroff
6th Nov 2009, 08:46
Thats not what I'm saying - simply - nothing has happened - yet everyone is getting their damn g-strings in a knot for no 'known' reason. Which leads to inuendo - boring and depressing conversations up the front with union types - which in the end makes for a poor work environment and motivation to come to work, quite low, again - been there done that. We are our own worst enemies in most respects, but none moreso than watering the grapevine and stirring the pot, which by the time it gets round - "Pink elephant monkey wheelbarrow - Direct entry captains, I'm missing out"

As for all sticking together - yaddah yaddah yaddah - historically - when has a union worked for the good and wanted outcome of the worker ? Except for times around the Eureka Stockade?? Seniority and Unions hide mediocrity....... If theres a problem - fix it, stop whinging.

BAE146
6th Nov 2009, 08:52
build a bridge fellas........the Company will do what they want, there will be no sentiment in this decision. You all laid down when forced to take leave and no one will "strike" over this and the Company know it! It's just economics when all said and done and VB aren't the only airline run by bean counters!!!

I don't understand the big deal? Guys have got Commands with VB on the 737 with only 4years experience on type (and a heap of GA turbine time!) and the E Jet is a toy compared to the 737 & A320. New hires with more than 1500 hours metro time should have no problems qualifying for Command on the E Jet.

TriJetFlying
6th Nov 2009, 13:21
This type of behavior by vb management has been going on for ever, and it will continue for ever.

Why cry over the decision to hire DEC to crew the Embraer? This decision shouldn't come as any surprise. There has been countless other examples of how these crooks have screwed tech and cabin crew over the years! And yet, you people do nothing to help yourselves! Why not? Additionally, the AFAP should hang their foolish heads in shame.

You are the architects of your own destruction! Stand up to them and start slapping back.
Good luck fellas.

Mach E Avelli
6th Nov 2009, 13:35
Any competent pilot with 1000 hours Metro and 500 jet should be able to make command on ANY contemporary civil jet. Contrary to what some would believe, all modern jets are pisseasy to fly.
Any existing jet captain with 500 hours PIC on that pisseasy jet should be capable of doing line training on same.
So what excuse is being put forward to hire 'old mates' ? It can't be an argument based on economics, as all new pilots no matter how experienced cost money to complete various courses, sim checks and line training etc required by CASA, DOTARS and all the other regulatory stuff. At least 6 weeks non-productive (as in non-revenue) time.
Unless the base material is really really lacking in experience, or is particularly unskilled, or downright thick, command upgrades are no more costly than inductions. Ditto check/training pilot approvals - those with in-house experience shouldn't need any more time or expenditure than a newcomer to jump through the various CASA hoops.
Unless there are other 'old mates' in CASA who can be relied upon to grease the wheels? That crap did happen in the past.

rescue 1
6th Nov 2009, 18:48
Contrary to what some would believe, all modern jets are pisseasy to fly.

Then why is the industry facing the worst decade for safety since the second world war?

As for the DEC, seems still a rumour at this stage. Regardless, VB has always been keen on nepatism and friends network for recruitment. What do you think Blue Star is and how many of you have benefited from it? Be careful throwing stones.

We have to face into it - that's how big business works :sad:

MTOW
6th Nov 2009, 20:09
Any competent pilot with 1000 hours Metro and 500 jet should be able to make command on ANY contemporary civil jet.I suspect I'm not the only one who'd love to run that quote past you in ten years time, Mach.


...when you've possibly got more than 1000 hours Metro and 500 jet time yourself.



Pilots who make it look easy will tell you it's a bit like watching a swan gliiiide across the water. All smooth and no fuss on the surface. And under the water? T- two little webbed feet paddling like hell.

Anthill
6th Nov 2009, 21:26
Mach,

I dont agree with what you have said either. My opinion is that for an abinitio jet FO it requires several years of exposure to jet operations before a satisfactory competance and knowledge base is reached. This means that at least ALL of the companys' cyclic simulator training program should be redone and to a high standard. The candidate should also have had several seasons of exposure to the companys' area of operation. This would take several years (at least 3, maybe 5 years) and 2000+ hours of flying.

I have seen jet captains with the experience base that you described and they have been frighteningly ignorant of some of the pitfalls regarding jet ops. They were also lacking in the common 'horse sense' that a well grounded jet pilot should possess. Similarly is the case with 'highly experieced' turbo prop pilots who transistion to jets - it's a very different ball game!

Anyone who thinks that 500 jet time as FO is the minimum for effective captaincy is kidding themselves. In a similar vein, captains with 500 hrs on type will not know enough about the aeroplane to be effective trainers.

Furthermore, the Ejet is a real jet aeroplane - not a toy!

whogivesa????
6th Nov 2009, 23:16
What a lot of you are forgetting is not all Virgin Blue FOs have come of Metro's etc. Many have come from the RAAF (F111, Hercs, Orions, BBJs), others from Business jets (BBJs, Challengers, etc), some from other airlines (737, 747, 767, F100, Bae 146 etc) and those who have come from very senior Check and Training positions at Eastern, Sunstate and REX. These are the pilots who were recruited as FO's due to their experience to allow for a quicker upgrade.

The company needs to look at all options before offering the DEC's to cover the short fall in captains for about 2-3 months (the time it takes to upgrade a type rated FO). They could stop assigning leave to Ejet captains, some captains are still getting leave assigned each roster. They could look at increasing the hours the captains fly for the few months. Once again there are captains only doing 40-50 hours per month. If they still can't cover the flying then look at DECs on a short term contract, but not in Brisbane. Send them to PER, SYD or MEL (the only bases that have been avaliable for the last 12 months). These DEC's can commute just like the current DJ captains have to do.

hongkongfooey
7th Nov 2009, 03:33
Waren, not to make this a pissing contest but I fly into China nearly every day I go to work, I emphasise China because they have very bad ATC, talk to each other in Mandarin ( the rest of Asia use english ), very restrictive airspace ( difficult to get diversions around wx ) and extremes of wx, ie snow in winter, TS and Typhoons in summer. having spent some decades trudging around Oz, I can tell you it's a lot more difficult flying in the good old PRC.
You are right though, this does not mean some pilot from up here will be any better than someone already in VB, was just curious as to someones comment about flying into a mountain :confused:
Cheers

Tiburon peligroso
7th Nov 2009, 09:41
Then why is the industry facing the worst decade for safety since the second world war?


You can't be serious? Airplanes are falling from the skys by the dozens! Gimme a break.

Any regular guy with solid turbo-prop experience would successfully make the transit onto a jet. Of course, good training would be required. Seem to recall the AN F50 Capts went directly to the A320, with no jet time! Not to mention the EWA guys. From the F27 to F28. Again with no jet time!

Rescue 1, don't believe the crap your hero Capt's are telling you. Street wise smarts go a real long way in this industry.

Mach E Avelli
7th Nov 2009, 09:44
I was not suggesting that the 1000 Metro and 500 jet should be a pilot's ONLY experience before being considered for command. Most operators also have a total flying time minimum of 3500 to 5000 hours, and should give credit towards the lower amount for pilots who have acquired experience within the organisation.
But I stand by what I say - having done B737 command upgrade training on several pilots with precisely the minimums I suggest - if the pilot is competent in the 1st place. If not, no argument, no upgrade. I have also come across pilots with 10,000 hours on type who were never going to make command.

Capt Fathom
7th Nov 2009, 09:55
Well Mach, you have me a bit puzzled!

Is it:
Any competent pilot with 1000 hours Metro and 500 jet should be able to make command on ANY contemporary civil jet.

or
Most operators also have a total flying time minimum of 3500 to 5000 hours

or
I have also come across pilots with 10,000 hours on type who were never going to make command.

I get the feeling then, there is no standard mould for command!

Mach E Avelli
7th Nov 2009, 11:57
Fathom, either you need lessons in basic comprehension or maybe I was obscure, for which I apologise.
The operative word in all that I originally said is 'should'. I gave typical suitable experience for a jet command for a 'competent' pilot. In my second post I qualified my version of suitable experience - although it should not have been necessary - as very few pilots get 1000 Metro and 500 jet without some other initial experience. While qualifying my first post I added that certain individuals are genetically unsuited to command no matter what hours they lay claim to. These are my opinions, not based on science but based on checking and training of a wide range of pilot skill levels and backgrounds over about the last 40 years.
What originally sparked this debate is that it seems only 'old mates' with a few hours on type gained with another (now deservedly defunct) operator are being given DEC presumably because out of all the existing DJ first officers, none are deemed suitable for upgrade and presumably out of all the DJ Embraer captains insufficient are suitable to take on check and training roles.
I have no axe to grind in this - in fact I could not give a flying fcuk what happens at DJ - but this one triggered my anti-bullsh!t meter.
No further debate from this white man.

TriJetFlying
7th Nov 2009, 12:46
Seems the old smelly days of Australian aviation is still alive and well...

You can't fly the 210, cause you only have 206 time

You can't fly the twin, cause you only have 210 time

You can't fly the jet, cause you only have turbo-prop time

bla bla!!

I got ya drift Mach from ya 1st post, and I'm pretty sure heaps of other fellas did too.

DJ are crooks! They have sh!t loads of qualified FO's to drive their swept wings from the left seat. AFAP where is your big stick? And members, where are your balls?

hongkongfooey
7th Nov 2009, 13:54
AFAP where is your big stick

I think it was turned into toothpicks 20 years ago :eek:

Myriad
8th Nov 2009, 01:18
DEC or not. We are still our own worst enemy when a certain group of guys agree to forgoe their check and training allowances to keep their positions on the EJET.

They were on the 737 as F/O's then go to the EJET, fast tracto command and training etc then in an act of selfishness, they agree to keep those positions on less pay.

Disgraceful.....DB, SS, RC, etc

TriJetFlying
8th Nov 2009, 07:21
I hear you Myraid, but like I said a few posts back.

You are the architects of your own destruction! Stand up to them and start slapping back.
Good luck fellas.

coaldemon
8th Nov 2009, 10:55
They were B737 Captains Myriad.

living the good life
9th Nov 2009, 12:47
And all you guys that went into virgin are surprised and pissed off with this why????

Its the way virgin have run since the beginning, and the way they will run into the future. stop complaining and just get on with your jobs!

if it upsets you that much you can make a real stand, and vote with your feet but we all know that isn't going to happen

littlehurcules
13th Nov 2009, 08:14
Anyway ladies - lets get the thread back on track ....:suspect:

So whats the latest news ?

blow.n.gasket
15th Nov 2009, 22:54
Easy Peazy,
Just keep lowering the acceptable standards until the pass rate reaches requirements.
Sausage factory pilot training ONE-0-ONE.
That's sure to improve KPI's
Now where's my bonus!:ok:

gas-chamber
16th Nov 2009, 05:09
Aviation is chock-ful of arbitrary writing. Most all Ops Manuals have arbitrary minimums like 1500 hours to start, 3500 hours for a command etc. But then go on to say that the company can vary it if the mood suits.
Many numbers quoted in the regulations are also arbitrary. 500ft vertically and 2000ft horizontally from cloud is one such example that has been with us for many years. How to measure it in flight? How to enforce the unenforceable?
The practise here of quoting sections of statements is a bit like selective TV journalism. Like where they interview someone and get a full statement, but only air snippets to make their own case or to make the other person look bad.

SilverSleuth
19th Nov 2009, 21:18
Well Apparently the two direct entry captains have started and the company has not responded to the afap's letters to confirm this. (thats from the afap themselves)
Very disappointing. Piss off 800 pilots to bring in 2. (Who will be as popular as .....well you guys get it.)

KRUSTY 34
19th Nov 2009, 23:40
If that's the case, then why aren't the AFAP and the company already in the IRC?:confused:

Perhaps once the "letter" from DJ confirms the appointment, that's exactly were they will be.:ok:

BAE146
20th Nov 2009, 00:00
Perhaps once the "letter" from DJ confirms the appointment, that's exactly were they will be.

.............and then what? VB are permitted to employ DEC, it's written into the agreement.

The only way to "fix" this problem is to take industrial action and get serious about objecting to being pushed around by Management. :mad:

Can you see that happening Krusty..............no, I didn't think so.:{

littlehurcules
20th Nov 2009, 01:14
Where is that written in the agreement??

Did they take "all steps" required before employing DEC??

balibo
20th Nov 2009, 09:14
That was a well negotiated EBA. Allows for provisions of DEC's.

Everyone must be pretty happy with the AFAP over that!

woodja51
20th Nov 2009, 10:55
hey guys - just going to have to wind you up here but what is wrong with DEc's?

If you were to ask anyone in the other than aviation world about promotions etc it is based around the best man for the job principle.

yes I know aviation is different but the travelling public dont see it that way - they expect the best and most qualified pilots to be driving them around... they are in no way concerned with who got the number from the KFC que first..so with that in mind if a company can get a qualified , experienced captain or crew externally and not pay rating costs etc then so be it. I would expect the shareholders would see if that way...

Of course trying to explain to punters that the pilot profession is unlike others and we cant just transfer around is another thing altogether...

will await incoming for making such a bold statement that bypasses the sacred seniority cow... I would think VB would know what their legal options to employ DECS is before doing so..maybe??

WJA

apache
20th Nov 2009, 19:02
I would think VB would know what their legal options to employ DECS is before doing so..maybe??

one would asume that they would know their LEGAL obligations!
However, you can do whatever the hell you like, when there is no one to fight you.
Who is going to take VB management to court to fight this? VIPA? AFAP? independant group of pilots?

Management KNOw that they can ride roughshod over the EBA, and will continue to do so until such time as SOMEBODY has the [email protected] to stand up to them.

and it is NOT just VB. Any company in the world who knows that something is dodgy, but cheap will do so IF they think that they can get away with it. Can you imagine being a fly on the wall at the manpower meeting:
manager A: "ok, we can save $xxxx by empoloying DEC's off the street ahead instead of upgrading others"
Manager B: " the pilot body won't like that!!!"
Manager A: " yeah I know. but what are THEY gonna do about it? "
Manager B: "................... ummm............. yeah................. I see your point."

rescue 1
20th Nov 2009, 20:02
if you were to ask anyone in the other than aviation world about promotions etc it is based around the best man for the job principle....yes I know aviation is different

Agree with your post woodja51. Except for the bit about aviation being different? How is it different?

Seniority is driving down terms and conditions as it dilutes an individuals competitive advantage. Seniority is a contributing factor to the decline in the industry, while other executive roles continue to go from strength to strength.

A clear example of this was the extreme shortage of pilots 2 years ago yet there was no significant increase in terms and conditions. Why? Because experienced captains could not enter airlines at the command level - rather join at the bottom. Think about it.

Tempo
20th Nov 2009, 20:07
Any competent pilot with 1000 hours Metro and 500 jet should be able to make command on ANY contemporary civil jet. Contrary to what some would believe, all modern jets are pisseasy to fly.

Absolutely, generally the more modern the aircraft the easier they are to fly. However, it's not the A to B in fine weather sectors that demand the crew to draw on years of experience....it's the days when things are not really going to plan. 500 hours on a Jet is NOT enough to make a competent captain. In my opinion, we had it right years before JetStar and Virgin....when joining airlines like Ansett, Qantas, TAA meant many years in the right seat (and back seat) before the opportunity for command came up. After 10 years or so as F/O, there is plenty of experience the fall back on once you become a junior captain.

psycho joe
20th Nov 2009, 23:30
yes I know aviation is different but the travelling public dont see it that way - they expect the best and most qualified pilots to be driving them around

Surely the best & most qualified pilot in this case (An established airline) is the person who has spent several years with a company learning the routes, manuals, procedures, aircraft etc.

Make no mistake, this sort of move has absolutely nothing to do with safety and everything to do with economic convenience. It costs a few bucks & a couple of months to train F/O's; & F/O position on an Emb is an unpopular/difficult position to fill due to being underpaid.

Seniority is driving down terms and conditions as it dilutes an individuals competitive advantage. Seniority is a contributing factor to the decline in the industry, while other executive roles continue to go from strength to strength.

That's truly the most stupid thing that I've ever seen written anywhere in the history of the written language.

Are you seriously suggesting that collective bargaining should be dropped in preference to individual contracts? Perhaps we should be more like GA, individualism has worked well there. :ugh:

Grogbog
21st Nov 2009, 01:22
I would suggest collective bargaining and seniority are two very different subjects.

Many organisations bargain collectively and also have a competitive promotion system. It's about getting the best person for the job, not the next in line for it.

A seniority list protects those towards the bottom of a 'food chain' and leaves those near the top with little or no bargaining power.

Think about it for a minute.... If you could tell VB to get stuffed and slot in at the same level (or higher) at JQ, QF, CX or the Kitty Cat you have bargaining power. Or, if a disgruntled REX Captain could move over to QF Link at the same level, he has bargaining power. At the moment management know you won't leave in droves (generally) because you'll have to start at the bottom as a SO or FO somewhere else. Changing jobs is like starting a new career (for Pilots) because of the seniority systems in place at most airlines. I suppose the exception is contract flying or a DEC position of course:=

If there is going to be a "real" pilot shortage in a few years time then removing seniority lists may well be the best way to drive up T&C's for experienced crew:confused:

grrowler
21st Nov 2009, 03:02
Getting rid of seniority certainly does not guarantee that the company gets the best people for the job. It opens up the opportunity for nepotism (which of course can happen in any non-seniority based company, whether aviation or not), but more specifically, the awarding of positions for purely commercial reasons. This is more unique to aviation because the training costs are so much higher, as has been mentioned. In this economic day and age, why would a company then choose to promote from within?

T&C's would most likely go down, due to the increased supply of pilots returning from o/s. Once they run out, companies will lobby for more 457 visas. In turn this leads to a pilot group who has no incentive to improve conditions (retiring soon or company sponsored). Currently this happens with startups, imagine if their (Tiger, VA, etc) T&C's were the norm?

psycho joe
21st Nov 2009, 08:44
Many organisations bargain collectively and also have a competitive promotion system. It's about getting the best person for the job, not the next in line for it.


I'm sure that's true, but I've never seen an airline pilot in Australia receive a command just because they were next in line. :hmm:


Think about it for a minute.... If you could tell VB to get stuffed and slot in at the same level (or higher) at JQ, QF, CX or the Kitty Cat you have bargaining power. Or, if a disgruntled REX Captain could move over to QF Link at the same level, he has bargaining power. At the moment management know you won't leave in droves (generally) because you'll have to start at the bottom as a SO or FO somewhere else. Changing jobs is like starting a new career (for Pilots) because of the seniority systems in place at most airlines. I suppose the exception is contract flying or a DEC position of course


I agree that's awesome if you're a line Captain or higher & don't mind saying to hell with the last vestiges of industry cohesion amongst your compatriots.

Whilst captains are playing musical chairs their expat counterparts would surely flood the market to get home (who wouldn't) = Lower conditions.

FO's & SO's would forever stagnate unless they find that elusive command time & so will go to the lowest paid operator to do so or worse still, enter into a payment agreement for command time = Lower conditions.

However I do admit that my hypocrisy knows no bounds, in so far as I believe that Pilots leaving an Australian airline to work as an expatriate should be allowed a window of opportunity to return with diminishing seniority commensurate with time absent. This would reduce the incidence of expats accepting lower T&C's just to return home. ;)

neville_nobody
21st Nov 2009, 09:16
A clear example of this was the extreme shortage of pilots 2 years ago yet there was no significant increase in terms and conditions. Why? Because experienced captains could not enter airlines at the command level - rather join at the bottom. Think about it.

No. Airlines seemed happy to cancel flights and contract their businesses in a time of massive expansion rather than pay more money to retain pilots. REX also tried to get 457 visas but discovered that they were paying below the minimum salary to qualify!! :rolleyes: That's what really happened.

Over in WA the same would have happened except that I think the mining companies who have had the gun held to their heads in terms of salaries may put some subtle pressure on the charter operators to start paying some decent coin.

What we also saw was a ridiculous reduction of the minimum requirements that were once apparently written in stone.

Captain Kellogs
21st Nov 2009, 23:15
Sorry guys, didnt read this thread till just now, and couldn't be bothered re-reading the same arguments so I may be repeating someone else however.

Why is everyone so surprised VB is not treating their pilots well, they chose most of you guys because you were the first lot of guys that were willing to pay for your own training in a time when this was not the norm, just so you could call yourself an airline pilot, and jump ahead of the guys above you with real experience and morals, Then after the training that you paid for you were paid a lower than average salary for an airline job in that day. The management at VB picked most of you for your morals not your experience so that could use this to control the pilot group in the future.

I have a number of friends in there, even they have commented on this and you cant make a stand on anything because there are enough people in VB that will sell you out for your position, which is a shame because there are a lot of great guys and girls there too.

You guys made the bed :-), now your complaining again come on. its life same way you got in others are getting in, it's the true VB way.

and to head a couple of comments off, No I have never applied, and never will apply I have a good job!

(Ducking now)

Wellhung Unit
21st Nov 2009, 23:24
Why is everyone so surprised VB is not treating their pilots well, they chose most of you guys because you were the first lot of guys that were willing to pay for your own training in a time when this was not the norm

Incorrect.....National Joke Systems started that........

I have a number of friends in there, even they have commented on this and you cant make a stand on anything because there are enough people in VB that will sell you out for your position

As is the norm in this industry.....Pilots are there own worst enemy..

BAE146
21st Nov 2009, 23:31
Hear Hear Captain K !

No need to duck as you speak the truth and another thing. There are a number of Captains on the 737 and JJet that got their Commands, shall we say, out of "seniority" order so the precedent had been already set for DECs.

You see in this game you cannot say one thing and do another when it suits. Play by the rules ALL the time and you won't have a problem.

Unfortunately the rules were set a long time ago and there ain't no turning back now. As Captain Kellogs has alluded to - you guys made your bed and now you are going to have to lay in it. :{

Captain Kellogs
21st Nov 2009, 23:33
I didn't realise national joke started it, who in there right mind would pay for an endorsement on a gas chamber? but then if this is true, why have they since stopped it? I had a mate that went there a few years ago no money required for training!!! he was bonded but nothing required up front, and when he left they didnt chase him for it either.

I have no problem with a 2 year bond for recovery of costs, i do have a problem with charging for training, especially when you are then left with a lower than average wage at the end of it (for the era that is, now everyone has followed there example).

Pilots are there own worst enemy.

BAE146
21st Nov 2009, 23:37
That's not correct, early days NJS never charged for ratings.

They went through a stage of brown nosing to Qantas and initially charged for B717 ratings on the Qantaslink services, but I think that has changed now.

Captain Kellogs
21st Nov 2009, 23:46
I didnt think so, thanks for clearing that up.

Mary P.
22nd Nov 2009, 09:07
VB hired four DECs. So what? This is Australia after all, I heard you chaps work for peanuts and let things like that happen to you without doing a thing.
As much as you critisise them, the French would never agree to such miserable practice, not when ripe F/Os are waiting to be upgraded. There is a lot to be learned from the French when it comes to not putting up with Sh.t.
You don't want VB to do this, strike or stop complaining.

fence_post
22nd Nov 2009, 09:49
Captain Kellogs

My understanding from ex-military friends in VB was that they paid $30,000 and got $15,000 refund on their tax return for this training. They then got back around $6000 or $7000 Dollars a year retention bonus until it was stopped a few years ago. Thus, they got back more than the endorsement fee.

Donít QF have a training wage until endorsed on a particular aircraft? This is what I am told by ex-military mates in QF (joined 2 and 3 decades ago, so maybe different now) Ė If correct this is same thing as paying for endorsement, as full wage is not paid until endorsed, thereby, remainder of full SO wage going towards the endorsement. Similarly, Cobhams (National Jet) did have a bond for three years and should you leave early you paid back pro-rata. This has happened to a few ex-military friends. Donít know anyone in Jetstar or Tiger. But donít they also pay for endorsements with tax refunds available? Come to think of it, all Pilots who paid for any flying lessons must not have been good enough for the military; otherwise they would have gone through the military. Isnít that what some QF pilots try and tell you when an applicant fails QF selection? Well, these QF pilots must have paid for flying lessons, unless they went through the military. You must be ex-military too, Captain Kellogs?

So as far as I can ascertain, everyone pays for their endorsement within Australian major airlines in one way or another. Some get commands many years before others too. I donít think VB was the first to pay for endorsement as Wellhung Unit points out, others through training wages and bonds were first.

Iíve got no axe to grind as I am now in my 60ís and retired with many ex-military friends (also in their 60ís and close to retiring ) still in QF, VB, Ansett (when operating) and Cobhams (National Jet) who have provided me with info.

sockedunnecessarily
22nd Nov 2009, 21:25
Fence Post, you make no sense.

Pilots hired in on a lowered training wage (such as QF) are PAID FROM DAY 1 of training.
Pilots who scab jobs by paying for endorsements do all their ground school and sim training on NO PAY.

QF - three months at 50k/yr + free endorsement = +$12,500
VB - no pay for training and pay for endorsement = -$30,000

How can you claim this is the same?

Captain K is right on the money. As long as VB, J* & Tiger pilots pay for endos, the industry will only ever get worse, and DEC on the JJ will continue.

Capt Claret
22nd Nov 2009, 22:05
Incorrect.....National Joke Systems started that........

I think you have your timeline incorrect.

Toluene Diisocyanate
22nd Nov 2009, 22:10
There is a lot to be learned from the French when it comes to not putting up with Sh.t.*cough* Would that be the same cheese-eating-surrender-monkeys that arrogantly nuked the Pacific and murdered a peace protester on NZ waters?? :=:yuk:

Yeah, we've got a lot to learn from the Frogs :rolleyes:

Industrial laws in THIS country make it very difficult to just "strike" (as you put it).

yowieII
23rd Nov 2009, 09:01
Wasn't Impulse one of, if not the first to charge for endo's, on the 1900? NJ didn't have pay for endo until the 717 intro, didn't last long AFIK.:hmm:

Dragun
23rd Nov 2009, 11:24
QF - three months at 50k/yr + free endorsement = +$12,50

I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure the training salary at QF is closer to $32K per year. Anyone got the exact figure?

MONK
23rd Nov 2009, 11:41
sockedunnecessarily

Why are they scabs?....I don't see any strikes or picket lines....so why use such emotive language?....

Transition Layer
23rd Nov 2009, 21:32
The TSO (training) pay at Qantas is now about $37,000/yr.

I'm a bit confused if at Virgin you get paid from the day you walk in the door to commence your training. So you handover your hard-earned $35k for your endorsement, then they pay you a wage of approximately $22k (worked out at $85-90k/year for 3 months) while you're training?

Why not just handover the $13k difference and not get paid for the few months training? :confused:

KRUSTY 34
23rd Nov 2009, 22:49
Because some people still have to eat in the meantime! :rolleyes:

blow.n.gasket
23rd Nov 2009, 23:06
Let me guess what Mary P. would probably say,
"Let them eat cake?":}

Transition Layer
24th Nov 2009, 01:13
Nice one guys... :}

I just don't get the logic in borrowing (and paying interest) $35k and then getting paid a salary. Salary sacrifice would make more sense though.

I guess if you're already endorsed from a previous employer then it's a whole different story, and probably why the policy is the way it is.

Dehavillanddriver
24th Nov 2009, 02:36
transition layer

I am not sure that what are you talking about is correct

You say...

I'm a bit confused if at Virgin you get paid from the day you walk in the door to commence your training. So you handover your hard-earned $35k for your endorsement, then they pay you a wage of approximately $22k (worked out at $85-90k/year for 3 months) while you're training?

Why not just handover the $13k difference and not get paid for the few months training?

Unless I am mistaken you either pay the 30 grand (not 35) for your endorsement or you get paid a training wage.

If you joined with an endorsement I understand that you are on full pay from day 1

Transition Layer
24th Nov 2009, 04:26
Unless I am mistaken you either pay the 30 grand (not 35) for your endorsement or you get paid a training wage.

Yeah, that makes a bit more sense. Doesn't really concern me anyway, was just curious how it worked at VB these days.