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trailfinder
5th Jul 2001, 15:14
New Report Unveils £420million Government Subsidy To Arms Exports

(Source : Oxford Research Group; issued July 3, 2001)

The arms trade debate has often hinged on a trade-off between economic and employment benefits on the one hand, and moral and foreign policy costs on the other. As with many policy debates, the reality is a great deal more complex. Some military exports may be seen to have foreign policy and even moral benefits if, for example, they redress an imbalance or prevent aggression. On the other hand, the perceived economic and employment benefits have little evidence in proven fact, the debate resting on unchallenged assumptions.

A report published by Saferworld and the Oxford Research Group on July 3rd 2001 estimates that the British Government subsidises the defence industry and arms exports with an estimated £420 million of tax payers’ money each year, a net £4,600 subsidy for each person employed.

The report questions the economic, military and industrial rationale for this subsidy and calls on a comprehensive government review of its impact and effectiveness.


Direct subsidy:
The report outlines four main types of government subsidy and estimates the cost in each area:
* Export credit guarantees (£227m)
*Marketing and other support through government agencies (£68m)
* Tax breaks on bribes and other corrupt practices (£64m)
* Distortion of Ministry of Defence (MoD) purchasing and other priorities (£60m)
* Total direct subsidy: £420m


Wider export subsidy
The report also highlights a number of other significant indirect costs including the estimated subsidy of £570 million to arms exports spent each year by the Government on researching and developing (R&D) new weapons. Despite the fact that these weapons are for export, the taxpayer foots the bill.


Subsidy to support a UK defence industrial base
Developing the argument further, the report identifies potential savings of up to £4 billion if the UK Government were to rethink its whole procurement strategy.


The employment myth
The report disputes the claim that arms exports and supporting a UK defence industry are vital for jobs and calls for a new government initiative on defence diversification. The report estimates that the government spends £4,600 for each of the 90,000 jobs that are dependent on arms exports (0.3% of UK employment). In addition, the Government spends £12,300 per year subsidising each job in the wider UK defence industry.

The report argues that it would be in the long-term benefit of the British economy and employment for the Government to invest the money currently spent supporting the ailing arms industry on stimulating new jobs in other sectors of the economy.


Faulty equipment for British troops
The report argues that the government subsidy of the UK arms industry leads the MoD to pursue a "buy British" policy that has distorted procurement decisions. Furthermore, despite this support to the UK defence industrial base, British armed forces have found themselves with inferior and often faulty equipment. Examples include:

* Tornado - In the late 1980s Tornado aircraft were being brought into service without effective radar. The modification of the radar by a UK firm with inadequate experience of manufacturing radar equipment, led to a six-year delay and a 60% increase in costs.

* SA80 rifle - The army’s SA80 rifle has had serious problems since its introduction in 1986. It is known to have jammed during active service in the 1991 Gulf War and more recently in Kosovo. In May 2000, because their SA80 rifles failed, British troops in Sierra Leone were left defenceless when they came under attack.


Recommendations
Saferworld and the Oxford Research Group call on the UK Government to:

--Undertake a comprehensive review of arms subsidy policies.
--End Export Credit Guarantee Department (ECGD) support for arms exports.
--Close down the section in the MOD that promotes UK arms exports, the Defence Export Services Organisation (DESO).
--Levy charges on government services to defence exporters so that government costs are fully recovered.
--Institute full parliamentary and public transparency of government support to the defence industry.
--End MoD payment for military research and development (R&D) costs.
--Move the Defence Diversification Agency (DDA) from the MoD to the DTI and mandate a review of economic and industrial policy.
--Commission an independent study of UK defence procurement options.


Report joint-author Dr Ian Davis, Arms and Security Programme Manager at Saferworld said:

"At least £420 million of taxpayers' money goes directly into enabling foreign governments to purchase British arms. Ending the subsidy to the UK defence industry as a whole, which has no clear benefit to our armed services or national security, could save a further £4billion. We question whether this is an effective and justified use of public resources."

Report joint-author Paul Ingram said:

"UK Government support for arms exports and the defence industry has been based for too long on an unchallenged belief that it is good for jobs, the economy and our military. Defence export jobs alone are each subsidised by £4,600. It is time for an open and public debate on the arms subsidy trap in which the Government finds itself." (ends)

-ends-


Good to see someone else recognises it publicly.

Suit
5th Jul 2001, 17:02
HHhmmmmmmm..............

The last time a British Government went down this road was in 1965. It decided that too much was being spent on UK military R and D, that the UK defence industry was absorbing far too much of the UK industrial effort and that the UK could no longer afford gold plated "UK only" solutions that frequently turned out to be unexportable and frequently faulty.
The solution then was to cancel a number of prestigous UK defence projects and replace them with US equipment.
The Government that took that decision has been villified and hounded from that day to this for wrecking the UK aircraft industry and for over reliance on the US for defence equipment.

There have been many and various calls on this site for an end to the "buy British" policy, frequently from the very same posters who criticise the cancellations of TSR2 et al.
You can't have it both ways.



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If the suit fits.........

swashplate
5th Jul 2001, 18:18
As an ex TA, anyone who implies we'd be better off with..well, any other rifle than the SA-80, they get my vote!

..goes to wash mouth out....

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Live long and Prosper.....

trailfinder
5th Jul 2001, 19:05
I don't have a problem with the principle of 'Buy British'. Industrial policy and jobs are a major consideration for any government. However doing so at the expense of:

a) giving the forces the right kit to do the job when the govt of the day puts them in harm's way;

b) wasting time and (our) money on bespoke UK versions when there is an acceptable OTS option

is not on. Furthermore, it is a self-defeating exercise. What incentive do BWoS et al have to sharpen up and deliver functional kit on time and budget when they know, chances are, failure to deliver does not lessen their chances of getting future orders? They have little incentive to become more effective in delivering UK kit. Would be interested to know what BAEs delivery record for the US is like (as they have to operate in a more competitive environment over there).

I know, old argument, old issue, but its still important.

Rant over. One of my bugbears..



[This message has been edited by trailfinder (edited 06 July 2001).]

Cat.S
5th Jul 2001, 21:57
The SA80 and LSW weapons systems are worse than awful- they're criminal! Perhaps we should give them away as foreign aid to countries like Iraq, Serbia etc in the hope that we may find them used against us sometime in the future and go on bended knee to the Sierra Leone government and ask for nice, reliable SLR's back? Mind you, how can we expect a reliable rifle when the suppliers can't even make a pair of boots that work!

TangoMan
9th Jul 2001, 16:52
Why on God's Earth did we get SA80's and LSW's??? They are sh*t, pure and simple!! The Cadet General Purpose Rifle L98 is more reliable shot per shot!! The SLR was a gift from the God's!! Durable, Reliable, packs a REAL punch ( none of that 5.56 rubbish!!) Heavy yes, kicks hard yes but over all much better!! Although the Gimpy is the dogs knackers!

TangoMan

You Know When You've Been Tango-ed!!

N Genfire
9th Jul 2001, 21:21
Would the assistance given to the defence industry have anything to do with the majority of "kingpins" in corporate positions being ex MOD procurement guys, or general staff.
maybe I am cynical and the old boy network does not exist anymore.......

Its not what you know.........

Regards N Genfire. :confused:

only1leftmate!
10th Jul 2001, 00:05
Lets not get suckered into believing the last item we read.

Who sponsored the 'research'?

What are their motivations?

Are all their findings correct?

Do we accept their accounting assumptions?

How does the so called MoD subsidy compare with the many other subsidies that are given out to other industries i.e. farming?

We all know that we have been lumbered with some atrocious kit, especially before the privatisation of some former Government companies (Royal Ordnance) but that is a completely different issue.

We are by no means the worse offenders for giving our arms industry a boost, and just as well that we do. Shorter production runs of highly sophisticated equipment usually means that we do without all together or have to buy the Yanks' old versions.

UnderPowered
10th Jul 2001, 01:19
Tango,

Perhaps your points on the SLR and GPMG are valid because both designs are nicked from FN of Belgium??

Thud_and_Blunder
10th Jul 2001, 17:49
U/P

The Belgique products were hardly nicked, were they? Their presence in our arsenal (and those of other knowledgeable discerning nations, like the Canadians, Rhodesians, Ozzies and Kiwis) dates back to the days when we were able to buy the right kit for the job. In the same way as, back in the 30s, we bought the Brno ZB26 off the Czechs, improved a few bits and pieces and called it the Bren. Indeed, the Spams finally acknowledged the qualities of the Belgian designs when they not only adopted the Minimi-derived SAW but also took on the MAG (GPMG to you and me) for various vehicle-mounted tasks.

Yeah, time to say bye-bye to the bullpup - or at least our version thereof. I never had any complaints about the Steyr I was issued with in the Middle East in the early 80s - which other discerning nations (Oz, NZ - sound familiar?) soon took up.

FODA
10th Jul 2001, 18:40
only1leftmate

Perhaps the reason we "buy" British is the fact that these companies allow us to "rent/hire" kit from them, (Challenger 2?), rather than having to purchase it outright. :eek:

only1leftmate!
11th Jul 2001, 00:09
FODA

a little bit like the huge br*bes that often get paid to ease a contract through, only with an acceptable British slant.

Or am I being too harsh, lessening the impact on the cash-flow statement is an important financial management tool. Just ask the Germans next time you're around an A400M stand. ;)

HEIGHTSGOODBACK5
11th Jul 2001, 10:52
I THINK YOU WILL FIND THAT THE SLR IS ACTUALLY 1 lb LIGHTER THAN THE SA 80

REMEMBER IN THE NEXT FIRE FIGHT "YOUR WEAPON WAS MADE BY THE LOWEST BIDDER"

Thud_and_Blunder
11th Jul 2001, 11:01
Heightsgood,

THERE'S NO NEED TO shout! I know it's noisy back/down there...

:D :p :D

HEIGHTSGOODBACK5
11th Jul 2001, 11:13
T&B
SORRY oops sorry its all the years of working under whining gearboxes and SHOUTING HEIGHTS GOOD!!!!


is a sucking chest wound gods way of telling you you've lost the firefight????

TangoMan
11th Jul 2001, 15:32
Yes the basic design for the SLR and GPMG were taken from FN but they were updated and modified before been produced under lisence over here. The result, the dogs bollocks of a weapon each time. Us British can make the weapons and we can modify existing ones to make them better, so why the fu*k cant we design them from scratch???

You Know When You've Been Tango-ed!!

only1leftmate!
11th Jul 2001, 23:53
The SA 80 was developed from a design sitting in ROs filing cabinet for a waepon that was initially meant to replace the Lee Enfield .303. I'm not sure why, but we were given the SLR as a stop-gap and the many modifications we made to it included removing the fully automatic function and folding stock. The breech block was also slightly cheaper and tended to melt when the obligatory unofficial modification to the firing mechanism (upgrade to fully auto with a matchstick or washer)was made.

When RO fished out the bull-pup design they decided to modernise it by replacing the wooden furniture with plastic. Unfortunately the polymers they used were obviously chosen by someone who had never heard of chemistry and the subsequent performance in extremes of temperature are a matter of record.

Shortly after selling SA80 to HMF RO was made a private company (with the lucrative deal already done to help RO on its way).

The SA80 is, however, a weapon orders of magnitude better for non-Regt RAF pers because virtually anyone can hit a target with it after 35 rounds per year practice (if you remember to forward assist, tap the magazine, close the dust cover, 3-point check and all the other ***** things that have to be carried out on the weapon to ensure it doesn't jam). :mad:

speedygonzales
12th Jul 2001, 19:48
As an infantryman who has used all three rifles I would ask anyone looking at the SA80 to ask a few basic questions before blaming industry.
Was there a weapons engineer on the MOD committee that designed and approved the weapon?
Why did it go successfully through the Army's weapons trials without comments?
How many modifications have there actually been to SA80?
Have you got the information on the far greater number of mods that were carried out on SLR/GPMG?
Why not Wait for the Heckler & Koch mods to SA80 and see what happens.
But before you jump to conlusions on the original post of this thread. Check out the web-sites of the organisations that criticise industry. Their ultimate aim is to put all the UK's armed forces out of business.
In fact I am always amazed how many threads on this site quote newspaper articles and then criticise industry, And a few days later are castigating the press as a whole.
A sense of proportion is needed. :eek:

BEagle
12th Jul 2001, 20:02
I hear that one no longer put the shot in the muzzle end these days? And that one no longer needs a percussion cap to set off the gunpowder?

That news stunned Bwigadier Sir Hardly-Worthitt:" Desh it all, cheps", he is reported to have said to the west of the wedgiment, "Next thing they'll be tellin' me thet we'll be giving up aar cevelwy chargers. Demmed unsoldierly, what!"

The Sweeper
13th Jul 2001, 11:48
Apologies for intruding on the Mil board.
As an arch-coward, I couldn't ever do that whole fighting thing. I have nothing but total respect for you guys that are prepared to go to war on my behalf, and I'd like you to armed with the best possible kit. To that end I thought I could expand a little on Only1leftmate's observations on the SA80:

Only1leftmate,

You're not quite right on the SA80 history: The .303 replacement you were thinking of was the 7 x 45mm EM2 (think that's the right des., writing this from memory). It was designed by a Czech ex-pat (whose name escapes me) and was the dogs dangly-bits - it could be fired fully-auto accurately one-handed! Probably the best rifle the Army never had. It was simple to strip, reliable and relatively easy to manufacture. It was cancelled due to pressure from Uncle Sam to accept the 7.62 x 51mm as a NATO standard - US Army quote "we cannot forsee a time when a smaller rifle calibre round would be used by the US Army..." The EM2 couldn't be converted to the NATO round easily, so we went to the Belgians and borrowed the FN-FAL design.

The only common feature 'twixt SA80 and EM2 is the bullpup design. The SA80, if memory serves me right, is descended from the Armalite/Sterling AR18 - a huge pile of poop.

And that ends my ha'penny's worth!

Hope you didn't mind the input of a civvy supporter of HMs forces.

Regards,

Sweep.

Thud_and_Blunder
13th Jul 2001, 13:34
SpeedyG,

I believe the SA80 series - like the FAL/SLR - went through its first major evolution long before it entered service. It was originally designed (and produced in a limited batch) in 4.85mm calibre, which was deemed too small (sounds familiar...). I can remember a TV programme (Nationwide?) which showed a bunch of Grannies who'd been invited out of the Darby and Joan for the day to fire a few 10 round groups in the smaller calibre - they seemed to have no problems.

Sweeper,

Not quite the rifle we never had - the EM2 was bought in limited amounts and entered service under a Labour Government decision to go with the findings of the NATO competition. Not entirely trouble-free; the original optical no-mag sight was prone to misting. As late as the 1980s, the safety posters on the range at Aldergrove and elsewhere still showed squaddies avec EM2s. I believe it was the head of a new Conservative government (Churchill? political history isn't my best subject..) who scrapped the deal and, acknowledging the industrial might of the US, agreed to implement their unilateral 'not invented here' decision.

I remember seeing the Sterling bullpup AR18 - what a mess. Looking at the SA80, I would think that the bolt may owe something to the original Stoner designs. Pity we couldn't learn anything about keeping the weight under control, eh?

The Sweeper
13th Jul 2001, 15:21
T&B,

Thanks for the extra info. Didn't realise we'd bought the EM2 in any quantity at all!

Intersting point about the optical sight misting up - too ahead of its time? Perhaps it would have been replaced with iron-sights had full service gone ahead?

Ah well, another bit of interesting kit assigned to the dustbin in the name politics.