RNZAF [Archive] - PPRuNe Forums

Tiger_mate

7th Aug 2001, 23:38

No wind up, but a lady PM who had demonstrated about the arrival of the A4s a long time ago and when offered cheap F16s elected to bin all Skyhawks and Aermaccis instead. The Kiwi Transport, helicopter and Maritime fleet survive (just).

Guess there will be a few job applicants from our colonial mates to join the UK Armed Forces after this. I already know of 1 Kiwi helicopter pilot and 2 aussie crewmen in the RAF.

kmagyoyo

8th Aug 2001, 01:47

Gate gaurds...well Ohakea still has a Vampire out front which may get replaced by an A4 in the near future..oops A4's can corode what am I thinking?

Tiger_mate...stand by for the first of the colonials to pitch up soon-ish. However, it looks like the choice of Aircraft if you dont have a British passport is limited... like only one...but that beats zero in this outfit!

Incentives to stay in NZ...can anyone think of any?? (ok the beers pretty bloody good, there are some nice mountains to pole around and the 2.23 days of summer are reasonably warm but thats about it).

[ 07 August 2001: Message edited by: kmagyoyo ]

Big Green Arrow

8th Aug 2001, 01:56

They're here already..just 'processed' one with an outrageous moustache onto the Albert fleet.

Magic Mushroom

8th Aug 2001, 03:24

Regrettably, this is no wind up. I feel massively sorry for the Kiwi's. I've had the pleasure of working with some, both in BH and on exercise and they're a highly professional bunch. Their morale must be rock bottom now that they are to lose their combat capability. I sincerely hope that the RAF looks favourably upon any applications to transfer. The A-4 guys (single seat, swing (ish!) role, FJ with radar experience) must be particularly well qualified to slide gracefully into one of our many empty cockpits with the minimum of conversion. All the best to them and the RNZAF.

M2 :(

PS Whatever happened to the RNZAF exchange slot that used to be at Brawdy?

[ 07 August 2001: Message edited by: Magic Mushroom ]

kmagyoyo

8th Aug 2001, 04:39

The Kiwi mate ends up on the Jag- this changed about '95. Cant comment on what our resident Pom will end up doing (except keep laughing all the way to the bank).

As for moral, whats moral?? oh I know! lets cheer the boys up by making them be prison guards if the wardens go on strike this week.
(lucky escape A4's in Aussie!!)

Samuel

8th Aug 2001, 05:24

I fired a shot each at both the PM and Leader of the Opposition; the former for her ideological shortsightedness, and the latter for spouting crap such as, "we will reinstate a combat capability when we get the Treasury benches back." The PM didn't bother to reply, and her Opposition took six weeks to do so, and held The Singapore Air Force up as an example of what could be achieved! She totally avoided any reference to the loss of infrastucture which is a strike element, and to the disgraceful manner in which some 700 airmen have been treated. There have been no losses of any rank above Wing Commander that I'm aware of.

The trouble with the PM is that she, and many of her cohorts, are former academics with little real life experience other than as tree-huggers and protesters, and have therefore a rather simplistic view of the world. Still, the RAF and RAAF will benefit in the short-term with some very professional people who, being pilots, won't have a bruised ego or morale problem for long. Look after them! :rolleyes:

Ex Douglas Driver

8th Aug 2001, 07:07

Morale on the A4 side of the house isn't too bad, as we're reasonably busy until the end of the year. Currently we're in Darwin until end of this month and then to Singapore for FPDA exercise until end of September.

As for 14 Sqn (Fighter lead in training) they've lost it. All flying for guys on FLIT has stopped, and they've mostly resigned to exit next month. I understand the darts board is getting a good workout (although this prison guard work may change things).

I don't know how the RNZAF intends to put on all the closing down parades, as redundancy from the maintenance personnel and aircrew resignations will have taken effect. May have to call in all the senior officers to fill the ranks. There's enough of them to make up a damn good wing parade!

[ 08 August 2001: Message edited by: Douglas Driver ]

Magic Mushroom

8th Aug 2001, 13:04

Kmaggy, Sam & D2,
Ah Darwin...enjoyed the place some years back when we took an AWACS there. On a more serious note, whilst it's a long way from home, I'm sure the RAF would rip the arm off any RNZAF pilots who wanted to defect. This would be particulary true for A-4 and MB339 mates. All you'd have to do was get used to working with us poms.
All the very best for you chaps in the future,
Regards,
M2

Samuel

8th Aug 2001, 23:35

There have always been exchange pilots on 75, and as recently as Easter this year an airshow featured an A4 display by an RAF pilot, (or so they said). There have always been Kiwis in the RAF, as I believe NZ was one of the few countries where places were made available.Certainly there are many examples that I can think of.

There is a military strip south of Darwin called Tindal. It was built by the RAAF some 30 -odd years ago, and was to be christened at an appropriate time by a ceremonial landing by an RAAF type.Before that could happen however, an RNZAF DC6 en-route from Darwin did a touch and go!Isn't rivalry wonderful!

Ex Douglas Driver

9th Aug 2001, 07:03

The display pilot at Easter (Omaka Airshow?) was the Flight Commander at 75 Sqn, and isn't the exchange pilot.

As for overseas jobs, its a fairly even split between the RAF & RAAF. RAF being favoured for some because they are offering front-line posts, although limited to Jaguar if you aren't a UK citizen/passport holder.

3 current A4 pilots are trying for jobs on the F111, but others have been told that the F18 isn't available again due to citizenship requirements. (Strange considering it only takes 3 months to get)

henry crun

9th Aug 2001, 08:22

Douglas D: This passport business is weird.
What is the difference between flying an F111 and an F18, or a Jaguar versus a Tornado ?, both are front line aircraft.

Samuel

9th Aug 2001, 13:58

There seems to be little logic in allocation of type. I can't see the difference , they are all offensive aircraft aren't they?

The crowd announcer at Omaka got it wrong, and as I watched the whole show from a vineyard tent, I too may have got it wrong!
Lovely bottle though!

Ex Douglas Driver

10th Aug 2001, 02:37

I understand that the restrictions are imposed by the US, and is for weapon types such as AMRAAM (F/A-18, SHAR) and Brimstone (Harrier, Tornado).

EmpireOne

10th Aug 2001, 05:12

Very sorry to hear what's happening to the RNZAF. I hope you chaps find some light at the end of the tunnel.
Changing the subject slightly, I was lucky enough to see the NZ Army Band play at a tattoo this week; bl**dy awesome. I think one of the best mil band performances I've ever seen. Among other great features, seeing the Drum-Major do ballet to swan lake music was hilarious.

This isn't really anything to do with aviation but I do find some irony in the fact that Trendy Labour's SDR did a good job of decimating our military bands in the UK, (one of our better recruiting tools), whilst NZ Army has a band in demand worldwide and yet is all but doing away with it's defence capability!

Guess you kiwi pilots could take up the piccolo if you can't get jobs with RAF/RAAF. :rolleyes:

PS: Having read this through, I realise this post has no relevence whatsoever. I'll get my coat.........

Dunhovrin

15th Aug 2001, 22:18

DD - Why just the Jag if you don't have a UK passport? That is not logical - types are decided at the end of Advanced Fg Trg depending on seat availability. Top Tip I'd aim for the RAF - all the Kiwis I know did well in the RAF (except me...). It's just you got to deal with pompous poms...

Samuel

15th Aug 2001, 23:31

I think the reason was explained earlier. If a Kiwi goes to war in an RAF aircraft he's only allowed to bomb things using British, or rather non-US, weaponry.I wonder if they asked Al Deere, Keith Park, Elworthy, Hannah, Ward, et al; for their passports?

Flatus Veteranus

16th Aug 2001, 22:23

Although I'm a Pom (and proud of it), I had the great fortune (due to WW2) to do my secondary schooling in NZ. I did ATC camps at Ohakea during the war and saw my first jet there. An early mark Meatbox based at Ohakea beat the **** out of my school about 30 miles away at Wanganui just before I left in early 46. When I came home (unaccompanied) I needed my first passport. In those days if you were British you were BRITISH - Civis Romanusand your passport was issued by whichever red bit of the map you were perched on when you applied.
My first passport, which I still have, was issued by "The Dominion of New Zealand", but labelled me as "British Subject By Birth". When it eventually needed replacing in UK I did it through the Passport Office and received a standard UK passport. When I applied through the UAS for a RAF commission, the MEC asked me whether I considered myself English or NZ. I replied "British". Dissatisfied, the rather prickly don who was chairing it then asked me whom I would support in an England/All Black rugby test. I replied "England" but added that I would support the Blacks against Wales, Scotland and Ireland. Since the old buffer was a Welshman, it didn't go down too well!.

All ex-RNZAF aircrew joining the RAF should be offered a full UK passport as of RIGHT. They should also be allowed to retain their NZ passport and so to become dual-nationals.

There were two Kiwis on 208 in my time. Sadly Gp Capt "Snowy" McKee died about two years ago. RIP.

Samuel

17th Aug 2001, 11:29

Lovely sentiment Flatus, but I'm afraid the faceless ones behind perfidiuos albion would be loath to agree.In 1939 there were already 500 NZ aircrew in the RAF. Seven NZ Squadrons served within the RAF, and there were kiwis in nearly every RAF Sqn.They served in every theatre and the 11,500 aircrew suffered along with the RAF.At one stage some 25% of all aircrew in the Fleet Air Aim were kiwis.They have also fougth in every Pom war since, including the Gulf.

However, that was then, and today is now, and Princess Tony has discounted NZ 'cos he's too busy to accept an invite to visit after the CHOGM in Oz, and his minions declare kiwis as foreigners.

Personally I prefer it that way!!He's worse than ours!

mrfish

17th Aug 2001, 14:34

On the bright side, the new jobs for kiwi strike pilots a rolling in daily. (Of course adding to the Govts 'brain drain')

4 to F111s in Oz
3 to RAF, F3s and Jag
1 to the FAA

.....and the fax is just warming up!

So long NZ, its been great...thanks for all the fish!

Flatus Veteranus

17th Aug 2001, 23:19

Samuel, you speak the truth! Let us never forget that it was Labour who refused Bomber Command a campaign medal after WW2, so they are unlikely to bend their PC rules and favour white Old Commonwealth nations who gave their all for us before Tony and his cronies were born.

We visited NZ in 96 and I spent a bit of time contemplating the In Memoriam boards in the WCS school chapel. Even though the casualties were read out each Sunday while I was at school, I was struck by how many of them were aircrew - probably in Bomber Command. :(

Samuel

18th Aug 2001, 00:12

Beware the F111 Fishie, the RAAF have lost a few, including at least three in NZ, one of which lost both engines on take-off at OH a few years ago (it was water ingestion). The aircraft ended up off the end of 09, sans crew capsule which the pilot had wisely initiated.Said capsule came down very close to now burning heap of carbon fibre and aluminium and crash crew drove a vehicle between the capsule and the wreck.This was of course a very wise move, much appreciated by the Aussie's who later shouted the beers, but not by the MTO who's budget was blown by the repaint. He got quite upset until leaned on!

There was a sequel, (there always is!)in that the RAAF Court of Inquiry, having completed their work, were boarding their C130 to go home, but couldn't find the Duty Storeman to release the duty free stuff from the Bond Store.C130 Captain wanders over to the Crash Crew and explains the problem. "No worries Sir, we have a key" wherupon a large crowbar was produced, duty free duly freed, and happy skippies sent on their way.

cribble

18th Aug 2001, 10:15

At the End of Force P/U I trust another piano will bite the dust? As a 3 tour 75Sqn pilot I would be delighted to make a financial contribution to it (You out there Oz?). Also, I would be delighted to provide the pike on which to stick the head of That Bitch (if only in effigy)
Ake Ake Kia Kaha.

Samuel

18th Aug 2001, 15:02

Get in line! There'll be a long line ahead of you for that job.

mrfish

18th Aug 2001, 17:11

total of 4 now to the F3...

.....if its just the piano, the pmc will be happy!

fighting 14th unofficial farewell dinner this thursday (as non of us will be here for the final curtain in dec)

Swingwing

19th Aug 2001, 15:40

Can you guys keep us up to date with the plans for the end of force do? We're thinking about bringing a few jets over around December for a bit of "mountainous flying training", but it might be nice to have it coincide if possible to pay our respects - has been fantastic working with you guys in the past.
Plus, last time I lucked in on a piano burning at Ohakea it was a fantastic night!
Cheers to all and for those heading to UK instead of Oz, two things:
1) Why?
2)Godspeed, fly safe....

kmagyoyo

20th Aug 2001, 03:20

Endex function (formal messkit type)13 December 01.
Massive get axed and smash the bar up function 14-15 December. (from the CO75's mouth two minutes ago so guess thats as accurate as your going to get).

Cribble: Oz reading loud and clear-he will get back to you.

Swingwing- Hopefully see you before the end of the year in shiney new RAAF uniform. Going to have to get used to sunshine, 76%more pay, 50% more leave and a big f-off jet but think I will cope!!!!! :D :D How many frames you guys bringing??

Booger

21st Aug 2001, 16:47

To Kmagyoyo et al,

firstly, may I say that the RNZAF's loss is the RAAF's gain and we look forward to getting you guys into the Squadrons.

I can only imagine the anger you guys must be experiencing as you watch a professional and proud outfit get screwed due to the flawed logic of a bunch of short-sighted, tree hugging hippies, led by a woman with a face like a bucket full of bashed crabs. Was at Ohakea in April - I still didn't think that the PM was going to go through with it.

Politics aside, don't be disappointed by 81WGs decision not to allow you onto the Hornet... As Swingwing and I will attest, there's nothing quite as sweet as M1.2/750KIAS on the deck, watching the twin tailed tupperware jet disappear into the distance and hearing his soulfull call of "Cobra 2 Bingo, tracking for homeplate". It's then that you realise you've still got 15000lbs of fuel so you turn around and bomb the bastard on his landing roll!!

Take it easy and see you all at the bar (in Amberley?!?) :)

[ 27 August 2001: Message edited by: Booger ]

Ex Douglas Driver

23rd Aug 2001, 05:38

Quick update on where the ACF is ending up (if anyone really cares anyway!!)

4 to F111 (that's fairly much all the RAAF will get)
5 to Jaguar
1 to Harrier GR7
3 to F3
1 to Sea Harrier

A couple more of the more junior guys are seriously looking at going thru the TWU at Valley.

Arm out the window

23rd Aug 2001, 06:10

Just remember you Kiwis, once you've used the 'Ausy' callsign on an overseas trip, you're not allowed to barrack for the All Blacks any more. ;)

tenth stage compressor

23rd Aug 2001, 13:45

HEY BOOGER
What the F%$@! are you doing -Ah **** !! I've got some dog**** on my shoes..

Sqwark2000

23rd Aug 2001, 15:40

Kmagyoyo / Doug Driver

What's the RNZAF's first female fighter pilot going to do now? Is she looking overseas?

Interested to hear.

Cheers

S2K

Charlie Luncher

23rd Aug 2001, 21:06

Had a great night in Oz with the sqn

But have you thought about cooking food in an oven instead of everything tasting of soil!

What about the boyz on 5 have they survived this, and is there any truth in the rumour the project is back on?

kmagyoyo

24th Aug 2001, 03:31

Booger me old china,

Looks like you've pissed off a twin tailed tupperware jet pilot.

[ 23 August 2001: Message edited by: kmagyoyo ]

Ex Douglas Driver

24th Aug 2001, 05:20

She's penciled in for a Herc conversion with 40 Sqn mid next year.

One of only 2 non-QFI knucks staying here... everyone else is seeing the light and departing the land of the long white cloud. :D

Dogsbreakfast

26th Aug 2001, 05:22

Don't want to add too negative a note to this whole Kiwi exodus to RAAF and RAF thing but would like to make the observation that our posters in Canberra are frothing at the mouth about having some Kiwis instantly solve their 'fighter pilot problem' by jumping ship to join us. I don't think it will work and it has the potential to **** many of us loyal RAAF types off.

The organisation is not undermanned for pilots it just doesn't have the right type of experienced pilots in fighters, transport and maritime. In fact fighters are much better off than transport and maritime. The organisation has never made a valid effort to hold onto its experienced people prefering to train it's way through the problem (for which you need QFIs and they are in pretty short supply right now). Now we hear all sorts of rumours of Kiwis being fast tracked ahead of our guys and even rumours of our recent graduates being put in holding patterns to get the Kiwis in the door ahead of them. One unbelievable rumour has a RAAF pilots course 'scrubee' getting a shot at fighters because he went to the RNZAF, graduated got 339s and is now coming back !

We currently have a solid crop of good, motivated transport and maritme people who would like a shot at fighters but they're on hold (and unlikely to get one) because we are recuiting laterally. Having taught advanced pilot training in three different countries, to eight different nationalitites, on four diffrent types over 12 years my observations are that the standard required by our people to have a shot at fast jet is dramattically different (won't say better (maybe I will in regard to the USAF))to the other organisations.

So..... Sorry Kiwis that you lost your Air Force but be aware that taking slots from good people here is bound to cause some bad blood. Not that it's your fault the blame lies with short sighted people elsewhere.

Ex F111

26th Aug 2001, 13:13

Agree with Dogsbreakfast.

Glad I left when I did. More foreigners taking MY cockpit.

Samuel

26th Aug 2001, 23:26

Are you seriously suggesting the influx of four(4) F111 pilots from the RNZAF, (none, repeat, none to F18's) has causesd a problem?

I think you are off your target.

mrfish

27th Aug 2001, 08:13

Im afraid to say the RAAF has made a shambles of attempting recruit here anyway. As detailed above you can expect 4 to the Pig and 1 to the CT4....(woop-de-do).....

....your people have planned interviews and physc testing, performance appraisals and flying reports....offering the might of the $AUS and a reduction in rank as incentives.

The RAF have simply looked at kiwi exchange pilots and said "great we'll have more of them please" and offered promotions and the GBP.....and Eurofighter in 3-5

Dogsbollox dont fret dear chap.....ex-pig boy dont lose sleep over losing you sheepskin seat..... the gaffa wont ring to the larconic tones of kiwis.

To the rest that have supported us and visit ohakea to drink our beer (and monster the ladies)....thanks for the invite! you are getting 4 great lads in jan. enjoy.

;)

[ 27 August 2001: Message edited by: mrfish ]

Booger

27th Aug 2001, 12:17

It appears I may have offended some people with my "twin-tailed tupperware jet" comment... It is therefore fitting that I no longer hide behind this thin PPrune logon veneer and reveal myself to the world:

My real name is Jason Richardson and I think the F-111 is heaps better than the Hornet.

[ 27 August 2001: Message edited by: Booger ]

Ex F111

27th Aug 2001, 21:35

Booger,

Oh really???

Samuel - and yes - 1900 odd [F-111] hours and I couldn't get a refresher following a tour away from Amberfield until I revealed my plans to leave. Then they came asking 'what can we do'? - Too late. I was even asked to be on the Board to select some of them... - What an insult!!

Good luck to the Kiwis, I just wish I could fly the jet more. - Pity there are no hours to fly.

Chinook

29th Aug 2001, 12:30

Hey Arm out the Window....

I resemble that remark!!

Go the All Blacks .... Aussy 134 ops normal!!

And for the interesting attitude shown by the uncharateristically whiney puke complaining about the Kiwis coming over and taking good jobs from good solid Tpt/Mar chaps waiting for a fighter slot ..

Eat me!! That is the kind of short-sighted attitude that continues to force the ADF to wallow in that 'best little army in the world' daydream that frightens me so.

It's called market forces, and if RAAF can't give these good blokes fast jet courses fast enough, thats an RAAF problem, not one for the RNZAF exodus.

I REALLY hate whiney Aussies!!!

doublehelix

30th Aug 2001, 03:37

Chinook.

Well said. I'm in Maritime and as far as I'm aware there isn't a long line of people who are trying to get to fighters. In fact, I don't know any, so if the Kiwi's want to come over

and fly Strike,
and are qualified
and can get on to the line faster
and solve the immediate problem of manning,

then the RAAF are going to take them.

Market forces.

doublehelix

Dogsbreakfast

30th Aug 2001, 18:00

Helix

Just because you don't know of any guys waiting for fighters doesn't mean there aren't any. I know of several in my Sqn who are capable, suitable and are sitting on their hands while DPO slobbers over the foreigners. Their not being looked after because they have ROSO. They will remember their treatment when it expires.

You just don't get it do you. Look after your own people and you won't have to go searching the world for others.

Chinook.

Behave boy.

[ 30 August 2001: Message edited by: Dogsbreakfast ]

Chinook

30th Aug 2001, 19:04

Helix,

I'll behave when you come down to Townsville and make me laddie!

How's that for some servile-apologetic-I'm-not-a-native-born-Australian-bulls@(t?

Honestly, some people are so xenophobic ....

Kia Kaha boys

doublehelix

31st Aug 2001, 06:01

Chinook,

DB told you to behave, not me.

DB,

I do get it.
I get that 4 kiwi's are going to join the RAAF.
I get that they will fly strike.
I get that you don't like it.
I get that the RAAF are taking them because they will make good drivers.

Are 4 RNZAF pilots going to cause that much concern? If they can slot in ahead of some transport or maritime(if there are any :p )pilots because they have some skills that the others don't possess then good luck to them.

[ 31 August 2001: Message edited by: doublehelix ]

Samuel

31st Aug 2001, 08:27

A bit emotive don't you think DB?

The response would seem to indicate that the DOPA (or whatever they call Postings these days) in the Head Shed are overreacting (if in fact they are!)because they actually have some people they can post who are not going to moan from now until their Qantas seat becomes available, and they want to make the feeling last!

Personally, I don't believe four Flt Lts could possibly make that big a difference given the reputed number of vacancies.They should be regarded as a gift!And they'll be good at it.

[ 31 August 2001: Message edited by: Samuel ]

Dogsbreakfast

1st Sep 2001, 07:36

Helix

OK Fine. No problems, sorry I brought it up. Will you still feel the same when you're in a ground job?

I'm not stressing it anymore.

Ex Douglas Driver

1st Sep 2001, 10:42

Thanks Chinook, Helix et al.

As one of the soon-to-be ex RNZAF ACF pilots we certainly don't want to be seen to be taking slots but...
if the RAAF doesn't want single seat jet pilots to fill holes on their front line sqns, then I feel that they're missing out.

There is a difference between a fast jet pilot (albeit from a foreign air force) and a transport/maritime pilot and their ability to go straight to a jet sqn. We already have the majority of the skills required on the F18, and shouldn't find it too hard to pick up the knowledge required.
As for a pilot from another role, you'd need to start back at the FLIT stage to learn things that we've been doing for the last 7 years.

The RAF have recognised this and are willing to put us out on the front line following a UK orientation (ie bad wx!) and then the OCU.

[ 01 September 2001: Message edited by: Douglas Driver ]

Chinook

3rd Sep 2001, 13:54

Douglas Driver: Look me up in Townsville when you come over .... ask any CH-47D driver at C Sqn. Beers on me next time you are in TVL

Helix: Apologies ... put it down to 'only Kiwi in a room full of Aussies' syndrome .. tend to come out punching as an IA!!

Ka Kite A No

kmagyoyo

4th Sep 2001, 17:57

Dogsbreakfast: to ease your mind the individual who was chopped won't be making a comeback to the RAAF (you seriously think he would have been taken back??).

Chinook- see you in Townsville on Tuesday 25th September during 75's redeploy home.

Swingwing/Booger- see you in Amberley for the airshow dudes...bringing up a jet from Nowra for the static display :D

Finally, as one of the four 'seat stealers' can I just say I am REALLY looking forward to making the move to Aussie (and going super at 100').

Kia Kaha lads

[ 05 September 2001: Message edited by: kmagyoyo ]