Metro lll training/endorsement inquiry

[CRJ-220]

hello

Hi, I am working for flight training school located in korea. I just received request from the boss to look for Metro 3 training centre for the new business he's setting up. As far as I know we are setting up new part 135 operation soon and the aircraft will be metro 3.

If you have experiences with any training centre who can train our company pilots to operate metro 3. Please pm me or reply the contact address and website.

p.s. it does't matter on where the training centre is as long as it can provide quality training. We prefer training in USA if we can
Regards
Thank you

[MungoP]

FlightSafety Int have an SA227 (Metro 111) course based at St Louis... not the cheapest but definately the best.. very professional.

[CRJ-220]

thanks for that
I have emailed all the managers listed in contact address but still didn't get response. Do you know where I can get POH and manual of metro 3?
We trying to pre study aircraft until we find suitable place.

Regards
thank you

[captseth]

I have 2,112 of the most miserable hours of my life in the "death tube." Perhaps you can persuade your boss to get a 1900....

[zerozero]

I got you beat.

I said, I GOT YOU BEAT!

I've got 3000 miserable hours in Metro IIIs and IVs. And I'm half deaf too, so I'd appreciate it if you'd SPEAK UP!

:8

[MungoP]

Have to agree... if you get hold of a few good 1900s you, your pax and definately your crews will be much happier in the long term.

[CRJ-220]

is it really that noisy? It seems like the CEO had good deal over that aircraft from somewhere and I am really not in the level of position to speak up to my boss to change the aircraft...
I'd personally prefer 1900 as well.

Well I will talk to him tomorrow to see if he knew two of the pilots from pprune went almost deaf after flying Metro lll

Thanks guys

[rigpiggy]

You can also try FSI in seattle, I believe they also have a sim. That said, with your temps, the 3 may not be your best bet. the garretts don't have a lot of steam in a high density altitude operation, look closely at the charts to see if you will make the second segment requirements at the airstrips/loads you will be flying into. It is however hard to beat for economics, get a good engineer though as they can be quite labour intensive.

[TopTup]

Over 4000 hrs in the Mexican Flying Cigar!

All what has been written I would say is true about the MIII. The 23 is much better. Both are VERY runway hungry and as mentioned above, is quite performance limited at high density altitudes of say 4000 ft. You're not necessarilly landing weight limited but W.A.T. (weight, airport/altitude, temperature) limited for your 2 segment missed approach climb with OEI, as the limitation needs to be calculated. A Dash 8 300 outperforms the Metro for landing distance reuquired and look at the size of it in comparison. Actually, so does the BAE 146! Be prepared to invest in a lot of water methenol if considering operating at high density altitudes in the Metro.

The 1900 is the other viable option BUT look at the running costs first!!!! I was with 2 x operators who considered the fleet shift but the runninig costs still favoured the Metro.

The Gerretts are noisy as all hell! I used ear plugs as well as my noise cancelling headsets.

The only real other option may be the Jetstream J-32 with that damn spar right in the middle though...

To be honest, I enjoyed the Metro. It is very unforgiving and would kick you in the butt if you got lazy with flying or planning. You DON'T want to get behind the drag curve on approach!!! You'll need a hell of a lot of torque to recover. Do that and then imagine the same scenario at MLW with OEI, hence the limitation as mentioned above.

I hope it all works out for you..... After a year you'll have forearms like Popeye. She's a heavy girl for a slim figure!!!

[CRJ-220]

hey guys just an update with the metro it's actually metro 23 not metro lll. I was little relieved with the fact someone said 23 is better. I think I could see why they chose metro now.
Since we will only be operating it in korea and almost all the runway is at least 2500m or longer. It's all about cutting the cost when you are doing charter business so it will save my boss bit of money than 1900.. if he wouldn't to pay the price of buying hearing aid for his pilots to operate metro...

oh boy , I am now worried since I only have standard DC headset. I might have to dig out some money to buy bose X..

Regards
Thanks guys.

any comments and experience with metro is welcomed

[TopTup]

OK, I'm digging up some old memories now....

M23 is far better than the MIII with the extra 10% power. However the same W.A.T. hasles apply. Plus you'll be ZFW limited on sectors greater than 2 hrs (from memory) if not W.A.T. limited or LWt limited.

The M23 carries its water meth in the center, at the CoG whereas the MIII has it in the nose. Therefore if operating at MTOW you'll need to shove AS MUCH as possible into the nose compartment. Try to get to it's max compartment weight, therefore think small and heavy items. When flying at around FL200 you'll be thankful. Otherwise it'll be pain to trim and very "pitchy" along the lateral axis, ie porpoising.

Metros have a history of uncommanded nose wheel inputs. Know the system. It is a "serviceable unservicability" to operate the aircraft without nose wheel steering operable. Assymetric thrust and braking plus a lot of finesse!!!

Inflight fuel balancing is simple but has led to a few accidents. Ask your ground instructor....

Wheellwell fires have also caused some accidents. It'll burn the wing right off if you can't get it on the deck fast enough. Never trust the Master Caution panel if it says the fire has gone out! The fire may have burnt throught the circuitry and give false indications.

Engine bog down has cost some operators more than a few $$. DO NOT select speed levers low too early after landing! And never go into Beta mode with speeds low!! Again, you're ground instructor may spend an entire hour or 2 discussing this point. This is a disadvantage of a direct drive turbine on the Garrett.

It flies nose high so icing can be a HUGE problem. It will shed it from the intakes, prop and wing leading edges but if you get it on the belly you have no option but to descend. I learnt that lesson the hard way and was lucky to walk away.

It will not perform at all well on one engine at MTOW or even MLW. I don't care what the AFM says. Driftown will get to you FL120 at a weight between MTOW and MLW, but more likely budget for FL100 or 8000 at best. If landing, you may as well be committed as mentioned, the Approach - Go Around performance is woeful.

At very low weights be VERY careful of torque roll when recovering from a (simulated) engine failure after take off or in a go-around. Know what to do "if".

Respect the girl and she'll respect you. That ESPECIALLY goes for maintenance. Shonky maintenance and you're on borrowed time....

I liked the Metro and would like to think I'm a better pilot for it. Good luck with the endeavor, and more over, ENJOY! I hope the above helps. Bear in mind it's been more than a few years!!

[zerozero]

Good advice re: the Metro. Much better than I would be able to do after 7-8 years....

One thing I do remember re: the nacelle and prop deice. The spinner is NOT heated. So you'll be able to remove ice from the intake lip and the prop but just keep the ignition on CONTINUOUS until the last slug of ice from the spinner is gone--this is important if descending into warmer temps because you'll turn off the heat and ignition and then that knob of ice will melt off and may be ingested.

Continuous ignition is cheap insurance.

Have fun, be safe. It's a pain to fly, especially with no autopilot but your instrument skills and scan will be SMOKIN' HOT after just a few hundred hours.

:ok:

[Carrier]

Quote: "We prefer training in USA if we can"

Have you not heard of the TSA security nazis, foreign pilot security clearance for entry for pilot training, visa hassles, etc. that visitors to the USA face? It would make more sense to arrange for all your training to be done in countries that are more welcoming to visitors and foreign business, such as Canada and most countries in Europe.

[MungoP]

Carrier Quote: "We prefer training in USA if we can"

Have you not heard of the TSA security nazis, foreign pilot security clearance for entry for pilot training, visa hassles, etc. that visitors to the USA face? It would make more sense to arrange for all your training to be done in countries that are more welcoming to visitors and foreign business, such as Canada and most countries in Europe. [QUOTE][/QUOTE

True, but the difference in costs, not only for the training but also inc hotels etc... might be worth the cr*p that the TSA throws at you.

[CRJ-220]

hey guys

Yes, we had reply from FSI regarding to TAA process the lady said it would take 3-4 months to process that since it was C-26 customised metro 23. But we are actually not limiting ourself to USA, we had quoatation from Canana and Australia as well. Thanks for answering anyways. :ok:

Do any of you have study material regarding to metro ? My boss just like to pre-study metro before training.

Thanks
Regards

[TopTup]

CRJ-220... PM me and I'll see what I can dig up.

[TopTup]

CRJ-220,

Email sent.

I hope it helps and best of luck with your operation. Respect the Metro, never get complacent, get good noise cancelling "whatevers" and you'll end up liking her.

[CRJ-220]

hey any of you guys have Flight Manual for Metro 23? or checklist for normal and emergerncy situation. Anyone has them please pm me.

Thank you

[ODGUY]

I flew the Metro 3/23, -11 and -12's for over 2,000 hours in the great white north of Canada.

Some great advice given already. The continuous ignition is just as described above. I've seen it first hand how it works.

We used it all on pavement, in an airline environment. WAT limited during the summer, both take-off and landing. The 23-12's will obviously give some better numbers.

It hates the ice, and you will see your TAS drop by a good 20kts, it's time for you to leave. When the airplane gets loaded up with ice, you will get the tail wagging the dog effect.

The same applies with improper loading of the baggage and pax. A full bird will also try to control you from the tail.

Fly the numbers, and stay ahead of the plane, and you will be fine.

I've got all the FS study books, systems, POH, however I am reluctant to send them to a stranger over the internet.

Have fun with it.

[CRJ-220]

Hello

I was wondering if anyone has flight operating manual(FOM) and Aircraft Operation Manual (AOM) for metro 23?

Regards
Thank you

[swaziboy]

"It is however hard to beat for economics, get a good engineer though as they can be quite labour intensive."

From my years in ground ops with metros... very important point!! Make sure you buy the newest you can get and have someone good check it thoroughly... cheap can be nasty!

[swaziboy]

"As far as I know we are setting up new part 135 operation soon and the aircraft will be metro 3."

Just by the by... can you use a Metro 23 for 135???

[captseth]

>>>>>Just by the by... can you use a Metro 23 for 135???<<<<<<

Don't see why not. 19 passenger seats. Or all cargo don't see an issue.

[swaziboy]

Ok, wasnt sure how it works in Korea.. in these parts, 135 ops is limited to max 9 seats with MTOW of 12500lbs / 5700Kg and under.

[captseth]

Oh, in the US it's not quite the same. Under 30 pax seats can be operated 135.