CX sack 49 via DHL; impose new contract

[St_Paul_Island]

Cathay Pacific sacked 23 Captains and 26 First Officer in the last two hours, informing them by sending packages through DHL. At the same time, Cathay announced that a new contract would be imposed on the remainder of the pilots. This is despite the fact that the previous three year contract, which still has 1 year to run, was imposed under a "sign or be sacked" ultimatum in 1999.

The previous two days saw many CX services cancelled, and others flown by wet leased aircraft. CX claimed the pilots were engaging in a sick-out, but pilots were bemused to find themselves turned away from their flights, and even given days off, rather than having them fly CX aircraft. The company's engineered "strike" is likely to be reversed in the next few days, as the entirely ficticious sick-out is removed by CX management.

CX pilots are still engaged in a gradual limited industrial action campaign, which does not involve any pilot calling in sick. Unilaterally imposed contracts will not be accepted. CX still refuses to negotiate, or even meet with the pilots. The mood amongst the pilots is optimistic.

[Snake Hips]

There weren't may "optimistic" pilots hanging around HQ about 5 minutes ago. Dreadfully sad state of affairs.

[Rabbit]

Bad news,

Looks like Australia 89 revisited. So this will be second time round for some of the Aussies there. Perchance are any of the same managers from Oz involved? My commiserations.

Have a nice day

[Kaptin M]

This was posted a few days ago on the "COUNTDOWN at CATHAY" thread:

stickyb
PPRuNe Flight Deck Qualified
Member # 11916
posted 06 July 2001 02:49
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From this mornings South China morning post
Cathay Pacific yesterday sacked a captain and two other pilots in a move the aircrew union believes is aimed at forcing pilots to end their industrial action over pay and rosters.

A pilot source said staff believed Cathay wanted to make an example of him in a bid to convince colleagues to call off their campaign. "A couple of weeks ago, a senior manager said 'what we need to do is sack 20 or 30 of them and the rest will get the message'," the source said. Cathay denies the comments.

Mr Tyler said ..........


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 109 | From: asia | Registered: Feb 2000 | IP: Logged

An obviously pre-meditated tactic, by an over-the-top management.

Other airlines that have gone down this road have ended up defunct, or bare shadows of their former selves at the end of it all, and I predict the once great Cathay Pacific will be no different.

There is no place in aviation for management of the current CX mentality - they will destroy an airline tp prove their point.
"Penny wise - pound foolish"!

[Tosh26]

CX Pilots

Just seen a CNN business report depicting your man Tony Tyler who, despite coming across as a shifty bugger, was valiantly trying to give the impression of his having taken reasonable action (in sacking 49 pilots)in support of an HK population at the mercy of narrow and rapacious interests.

My immediate reaction, sitting down here in SQ land was that the HKAOA double quick needs to hire a very good HK PR firm who can get a persuasive front man facing BBC World/CNN/CNBC plus Herald Tribune and FT to explain to the planet that you are taking reluctant action in support of very reasonable requests for continued negotiation in the face of an obdurate and unreasonable management, in pursuit of equally reasonable and legitimate remuneration aspirations.

All in SQ wish you the very best of luck in your dealings with a management of breathtaking arrogance and foolishness.

Best regards

[BMed Boy]

This looks like the big one, stick to it chaps and good luck.

[411A]

The HKAOA guys sure do need that PR firm, otherwise their actions will only look obstinate and selfserving to the HK traveling public. The CX management, with their unlimited budget, seems to be getting this message across quite well.

[slj]

Tosh 26

A good posting with a good deal of common sense,especially re PR

[LevelFive]

I was just reading Cath ay sacks 49 striking pilots (http://www.bday.co.za/bday/content/direct/1,3523,885139-6078-0,00.html).

Their management is destroying their reputation as a good airline. No way would I want to work for a Lorenzo outfit like that.

Good luck to those of you who work there.

It’s sad to see a good airline like CX go down the tubes.
:(

[GlueBall]

If CX pilots don't unite and don't go on full strike in support of the 49 fired pilots, the company will make good in its bluff to intimidate all working pilots. There are no desperate situations, only desperate people. :p

[Chimbu chuckles]

Hang together CX guys....it's your only hope...and remember the AFAP PR disaster of 89 and don't make the same mistake...I know you wont.

Chuck.

[Airbubba]

From the SCMP:


Monday, July 9, 2001

Union outrage after Cathay sacks 49 pilots


VICTORIA BUTTON, ANGELA LI and MAY SIN-MI HON

Updated at 12.10am:

Cathay Pacific yesterday sacked 49 pilots including a key union negotiator and imposed a new employment deal on air crew.
An Aircrew Officers' Association committee member and negotiator, Brad Harris, is believed to be among those sacked. Meanwhile, union secretary Dave Clapson and member Peter Van der Meulen were revealed to be among three pilots sacked previously by the airline.

Before pilots met in Discovery Bay last night, the union's leadership said it would not be provoked into escalating its limited industrial action.

Union general secretary John Findlay claimed the sackings would be illegal overseas and constituted a conspiracy to break the union. He described them as ''shameful and disgraceful'' and accused the company of ''bully-boy tactics''.

Cathay spokesman Tony Tyler insisted union membership was not the reason the 52 pilots had been sacked. He claimed not to know how many of the sacked pilots were union members even though the company traditionally deducts union dues from pay.

''We have undertaken a detailed review of the employment history of all our pilots and identified those who, we feel, cannot be relied upon to act in the best interests of the company in the future. We have, essentially, lost confidence in those employees,'' he said.

The review, which started a few days ago, was prompted by the union making it clear industrial action could last as long as a year, Mr Tyler said.

Asked for examples of what pilots had done to warrant sacking, he said one had repeatedly verbally abused ground staff while another had called in sick on short notice five times in six months. The sacked pilots were 23 captains and 26 first officers.

The airline also imposed a new package of benefits and pay increases on pilots, including rises of up to nine per cent, increased education, housing and maternity benefits and improved rostering. The package was less generous than a previous offer made during negotiations because of the cost of the dispute, Mr Tyler said.

Mr Findlay called on the Government to review industrial laws to protect workers.

''Can Hong Kong ever be Asia's world city when this sort of action is allowed?'' he asked. ''What message will the Chief Executive take to the United States when one of his major companies is using archaic, strong-arm, union-busting methods.

''They are destroying the careers and family life of many of their pilots. Today's action by Cathay Pacific is disgraceful,'' he said.

Cathay yesterday operated 83 flights out of an original schedule of 122. Up to 8pm, 35 flights had been delayed by more than 15 minutes and six flights by more than an hour.

Speaking at government headquarters on the eve of his departure for Washington DC today on a United Airlines flight Tung Chee-hwa urged the Cathay management and its pilots to find a long-term and good solution to end the row as soon as possible.

''The strike or the industrial action at Cathay Pacific is seriously affecting our economy, creating inconvenience for our travelling public and affecting our tourism,'' Mr Tung said.

[raitfaiter]

It is well worth remembering that Swire group no longer hold a majority share holding in Cathay Pacific. The current bunch of tossers are employed by what is euphemistically called a 'management' contract for, I think about another 3 years. Given the mainland Chinese way of solving problems through negotiations and consensus, what price for this net fullof pond life no longer being around fairly soon.....

[CubaLibre]

It does look like 89 revisited.

Hang together guys and good luck

[Chimbu chuckles]

Given the climate in HK and the air clogged with pollution I wouldn't have thought 5 times in 6 months would be excessive. The next question is how many sick days had the chap accrued and was his average over his length of service excessive!
I've heard similar pisspoor excuses used before to get rid of people....pathetic grasping at straws springs to mind...hang together guys and stick to the core issues dont be distracted by management into looking silly in front of the public. Remember what political spin doctors tell their charges.....the core message over and over and over.

Chuck.

[lekkerste]

Good luck guys, if you stick together, you will prevail, remember, without you, there is no airline. My thoughts and best wishes are with you all, especially those so disgracefully sacked. I have little doubt we at BA will be joining you soon.

[Pengintai]

Sorry to hear the news guys. Best of luck.

[Ivan aromer]

Welcome to the real world guys. The gravy tain has run out of Bisto.

[wooof]

Ivan aromer

Please don't act the prat.

[receding 'airline]

I can't believe the absolute ridiculous tactics of sacking pilots. Indeed, where in the civilised world would this be legal? I hope this only serves to strengthen the union's resolve. Hang in there and stick it to the p*icks until you get what you want and those who have lost their jobs get re-instated.

[Kaptin M]

The 52 pilots sacked is equivalent to the number of crew required for 5 aircraft, working on 5 crew per aircraft, (which is pretty much the industry norm for long haul/regional ops.)

How co-incidental is it, that Turnbull, Tyler and Co., have wet-leased 10 aircraft??!

Expect another "purging" before long, to reconcile the cost and number of leased aircraft.

[ 09 July 2001: Message edited by: Kaptin M ]

[LoveGod]

It's probably cheaper to charter from the Chinese carriers than flying CX's own aircraft. Well done Dave! You are doing a job in screwing the pilots. Keep up with the good work. And don't forget, do to others what you want them to do to you. :mad:

[Tosh26]

CX Pilots

Further to my post of yesterday, I do hope that you won’t mind me reiterating the need for a very effective HK PR outfit to make your case to the world.

It would seem that your “management” is intent on winning the PR war and, as someone looking in from the outside, Turnbull & Co seem to be way ahead on points, so far.

I hope that GK will not mind me pinching his posting of yesterday from another thread:

SCMP Monday (9 July 2001) Public Opinion Poll
Should Cathay Pacific's management agree to its pilots' demands?
Answer Result Per cent

1. Yes. Anything to avert flight chaos 57.2%
2. Should give way on pay, but not rosters 12.6%
3. Should give way on rosters, but not pay 13.4%
4. Not at all 16.8%

It would further seem that in respect of the HK General Public, you would be pushing against an open door with any future PR efforts, as the wish is clearly for normal service to be resumed ASAP.

I would have thought that a campaign to clearly demonstrate that it is not the pilots who are preventing such a return to normal service and indeed continue to operate in the most adverse of industrial climates, but rather the efforts of a puerile, vindictive, unprofessional, un-cooperative, inexperienced group of egomaniacs, masquerading as a professional management group, with zero concern for the shareholders’ interests and utter contempt for the employees, that is jamming up the works.

In the same vein, I assume that the Association does have access to expert legal advice; able to adroitly manoeuvre in the shallows of HK employment legislation and that the possibility is currently being explored of personal suits against the directors responsible for the vexatious, selective, damaging and illegal termination of 52 employment contracts?

Perhaps the Association requires to be more proactive and to take the psychological war to the opponent’s camp. Remember that when bullies are confronted, they piss their pants and run away – Ayling Bob, of a million years ago, when trying the same Rambo Management stunt received a particularly sweet come-uppance from the shareholders.

Best regards

[Tosh26]

CX Pilots

Sorry I forgot to mention in the posting above - I'm told an injunction staying the individual terminations demonstrably made in contentious, heated and controversial circumstances, would be effective.

Best regards

[thegypsy]

Tosh You are correct in saying the pilots should hire a PR firm as all the media as usual bring up the salaries earned by a few as representing the norm and thus depicting Cathay Pilots as a bunch of greedy types.
This report was printed gleefully in the Singapore Straits Times as if it could not happen here and of course they are right in that respect as our recent CA was thrust down our throats without any pretence of meaningful negotiation.
I hope this does not mean that SIA will now solve their recruitment problem yet again by someone elses misfortune!

[411A]

For those that have not been in the industry for a long time, SIA has ALWAYS been able to solve their recruitment problems this way. It started many years ago with the guys that took early retirement from BA and is not likely to cease anytime soon. SIA has always been in the market for crews at "just" the right time.

[Tom Tipper]

Yes it is likely to change soon. No more military pilots, no 'self-improvers' and all airlines expanding. Supply and Demand indicate that unless SIA change their thinking poste-haste they are in for difficult times.

SIA have not enough pilots and too many aircraft. Already seeing their monthly ads in Flight indicates the pressure may be on them even now.

-----------------------
With regard to the CX boys, I put this on the FH forum but it is more relevant here:...


Amongst various tactics the bullies at H/O will now be evaluating, the next stage I suggest will be a little "gift" in the
mail from CX.

This new deal will have further "improved" conditions and an expiry date.

All most of us outsiders can say is beware Airline Managers bearing gifts. You guys have previously been forced to sign
new contracts under duress and look what that resulted in.

As a casual observer all I would ever suggest is don't sign anything and keep doing what you are doing. Don't resign,
don't go on strike just do your job safely.

The intended intimidatory pressure they are applying to you with these sackings is further reason for you to be doubly
sure of safety when at work. If you miss a Notam or inadvertantly skip a cockpit item (gear pins removed?) then you are
easy pickings for them. Take your time and keep doing exactly what you have been doing so far.

Incidentally, all you are doing is what you are contracted to do - what more could any employer require. If this has
thrown Cathay into such chaos isn't that perfect proof of undermanning on their part.

Keep it up folks - may the force be with you.

[Tom Tipper]

............oh and also, ignore anything 411A has to say!

[Kaptin M]

Agreed, Tom. Unfortunately (for the pilots at SQ), a long time local F/E at that airline commented to me many years ago, "SIA has always been blessed with Luck. Whenever they are short of pilots (for whatever the reason), another airline goes t!tsup, or retrenches their pilots. This time it looks as though Cathay will unwittingly provide the flight crew that Singapore are so desperate for, with the added attraction of basings outside Singapore, and a retirement age of 60 (and tipped to be raised). Although SQ has not remunerated as well as CX, it takes a lot of pressure off the Cathay pilots to know that their experience will be their visa to another employer, and a continued income.

Likewise, I won't be surprised to see other airlines accept a slight surplus of pilots and take on some of the retrenched ex-Cathay drivers, if only because they would be too good value to let slip away.

The downsizing of CX - which it appears Turnbull, Tyler and co., are forcing onto that company - will result in experienced pilots being released onto the market, and unfortunately for the self-improvers another period of lesser opportunities in the shorter term. However, as a lot of these CX gents are in the "upper age" bracket, the relief for employers will only be a brief respite, and the piece of elastic will not be capable of stretched any further.

[Tosh26]

CX Pilots

An extract from the SCMP, Monday, July 9, 2001, as posted by Airbubba on this thread yesterday:

“Asked for examples of what pilots had done to warrant sacking, he said one had repeatedly verbally abused ground staff while another had called in sick on short notice five times in six months. The sacked pilots were 23 captains and 26 first officers”.

The management action involved in sacking a pilot who had “called in sick on short notice five times in six months” begs a number of questions.

1. Does the CX management not understand the important correlation between pilots’ individual judgement as to whether they are fit or not to fly and the particular employing airline’s cultural attitude towards Flight Safety?

2. Is the CX management made up of qualified medical practitioners who are able to make continuous judgement on the day-to-day medical fitness of all pilots employed by CX?

3. Is the CX management similarly able to differentiate particular maladies which may not induce severe operational debilitation with those maladies which, in particular vestibulary ailments, are capable of inducing the most sever threats to operational capability and hence to Flight Safety?

4. Is the CX management aware that intimidation that counters individual pilot judgement as to fitness or otherwise to fly is behaviour of the utmost recklessness and irresponsibility in its coercive and knowing commissioning of unsafe practices?

5. Is the CX management aware that under the HK Companies Act – as amended from the UK Companies Act of 1948 - that they are jointly and severally responsible for acts commissioned and that in the event of reckless and unfit behaviour, they are individually liable for their actions without limitation?

6. In the event of an accident directly attributable to flight crew medical unfitness would the shareholders continue to condone (if indeed they do) their management’s current actions?

7. Is the HK General Public aware of the extremely serious implications of this particular intimidatory action to their own safety when flying CX and that of their loved ones?

8. Has any individual member of the newly contracted management any previous experience of the airline industry, before taking the reigns of CX and if so was the previous appointment(s) executed with what might be judged as competence and success?

9. If no to the above, have any of them ever successfully run a whelk stall?

Stick together guys and win the PR and Legal battles required for your success!

Best regards

[highcirrus]

Tosh26

I notice that you refer to Mr Bob Ayling of BA, as a CEO dispatched by the shareholders for incompetent handling of staff relations and in particular pilot-management relations.

Another “whelk stall” operator I can think of, with no previous industry experience and who met a similar fate (to much rejoicing) for mishandling what seems to be the all important relationship with the pilots, is Mr Francis Baron, one time CEO of UK tour operator, First Choice.

Will Mr Turnbull and friends be next to meet nemisis at the shareholders' hands?

[HotDog]

As the dispute between Cathay Pacific and its pilots escalates, analysts say the battle could cost the airline significantly more than the last time its aviators disrupted business in 1999.
Cathay chartered an additional seven aircraft and crews yesterday from mainland airlines in preparation for a possible full-scale work stoppage by its pilots.


"Those new aircraft would indicate that the airline is interested in playing serious hard ball. At this stage, it certainly seems that Cathay is interested in getting to a final resolution as quickly as possible, even if that means pushing the pilots into a strike," said an aviation analyst who declined to be named.

The seven aircraft acquired yesterday were in addition to the 10 wet-leased aircraft and crew Cathay took on last week ahead of Typhoon Utor.

Analysts estimated that the 17 aircraft charters could be costing the airline more than HK$10 million a day, add to that the cost of re-routing and housing passengers from cancelled flights each day.

Cathay said its average flight carried about 300 passengers and it was cancelling flights at the rate of about 300 to 350 a week.

While the two-week work stoppage in 1999 cost Cathay about HK$500 million, it also won back HK$1.4 billion in reduced wage costs in the 1999 contract, in exchange for giving pilots share options in the airline.

Those savings were supposed to be spread over 10 years, but analysts estimate that the savings were in fact front-end loaded.

"I'd say that Cathay has about 40 per cent of those savings under their belt already," said the analyst.

But this time around, rather than being in a position to slash costs, Cathay will be obligated to increase its payroll to satisfy the pilots. It has offered them a pay increase of up to 9 per cent.

Assuming that average pilot wages go up 5 per cent, each individual pilot will make an increase of about HK$44,000 in salary for the next six months.

That would increase Cathay's total staffing budget by about HK$65 million to HK$70 million per year. Last year, about a third of the airline's HK$7.5 billion in staffing costs were paid to pilots.

[highcirrus]

HotDog

Re: your quote of 10.07.01

"Those new aircraft would indicate that the airline is interested in playing serious hard ball. At this stage, it certainly seems that Cathay is interested in getting to a final resolution as quickly as possible, even if that means pushing the pilots into a strike," said an aviation analyst who declined to be named”.

I would think that if the Cathay pilots do not take any precipitate action that could possibly be construed as contravention of HK law and continue to fulfil their contractual obligations to the letter by turning up for work unless medically unfit, then they will be “fire proof” and no “final resolution as quickly as possible” can be attained by management.

Meanwhile the management will continue to bleed the company to death, presumably eventually prompting an intervention by the airline’s major shareholders?

[raitfaiter]

Theres a rumour making the rounds that the two aircraft currently in the desert (Classics) will be recovered and flown by ASL freighter crews to help fill the gaps in the CX ranks. Interesting moral dilemma for some....

[xs calf]

raitfaiter,
I think you'll find that, if it exists at all, that's a rumour designed to frighten and divide rather than a substantial threat.

[Liam Gallagher]

Raitfaiter,

Matters are serious enough without pouring petrol on flames.

I cannot see how ASL will get involved. Moral dilemma aside, there just aren't the numbers. ASL has only 14 Captains and 11 FO's presently qualified to fly the CX Classic. Equally, my understanding is that only one of the mothballed Classics could be made airworthy. Even then it was considered last year and rejected on the grounds of cost.

Moreover, CX showed in 99 it was best to keep the freighters moving to generate cash to pay for the charters.

Stay calm.
Liam G.

[delta4]

:rolleyes:
lets face it guys,CX was and is still one of the best paid outfits,as far as pilots are concerned,,why rock the boat so much.
Consider the austrlian sackings,chinese control of hongkong,etc.
There is no room for mass strikes etc in these or any business in the new millenium.
Everyone is dispensible.Happens every day.
Be aware !!!!

[Tom Tipper]

Yeah right delta...tell that to the Lufthansa pilots!!!
----------------------------------
Anyway, sitting here as an outsider in Oz one thing strikes me clearly:

It is a fact (though not politically correct) that passengers pay more to fly CX because they believe they have a distinctly higher chance of survival. When you look at the competition (Korean, China Airlines, Singapore Airlines) their accident/incident rates are shameful and the public know that.

Pax on CX know all this and it is a substantial part of the reason CX was so profitable recently. It is often said employees "bight the hand that feeds them" but in the CX case may I suggest it is the pilots and the reputation they have bought the airline, which is in fact directly feeding the managers. These CEO's etc are now literally bighting the hand that is feeding them.

Attempted destruction of that pilot group is 1) An excercise in futility as the much quoted Boeing Aircraft survey which indicates a critical Aircrew supply shortage will dictate that they will do as well or better elsewhere - in the medium term.

2) A recipe for destroying the very factor that makes the airline so popular.

----------------------
So although your management seem to have Stallone Syndrome (Ready to Fight but not real smart) I can't believe they would be stupid enough to let you guys disappear.

To do so by say systematically sacking 40 guys every 2-3 days would destroy their own livelyhoods. CX is a 'world class' carrier in no small part because of your contributions.

The airline may threaten to employ say hungry Romanians and good luck to them, but such is the media interset the airline reputation will suffer and along with it that reputation which these guys want for their future careers (like Eddington).

[locgreen]

Tom Tipper...you can't be serious!!! Are you lumping SIA with the likes of China Airlines and Korean Air?? Yikes...

CX pilots...stick it out guys.

[maxalt]

You guys in CX better watch yourselves now. Don't think there's any shortage of guys over here in the likes of Ryan and Easy, or Go, who aren't just wetting themselves at the thought of fast tracking to a heavy left seat!

After all, fairs fair, you Ozzies ruined our careers in '89 when you flooded the world market with losers. This time it'll be different 'cos we won't be 'nice guys' again, and get shafted like before.

This time we're going to HK.

[xsimba]

Maxalt, how can you sit there and gloat at the misfortune of other pilots - your peer group. The situation is no different to you being sacked and being replaced by a wannabe with less experience and ability. I doubt you would be smirking then.

Next time you contribute to this discussion please have the courtesy to engage whatever brain cells you may have and consider the implications this dispute has for all of us.

[smith]

CX pilots, take care of your health because your company will fire you if you are sick and unfit to fly. CX just fired 49 that are sick. If you are sick but decided to go to work, CX will fire you because you contravene the ANO. Good luck with you health. :eek:

[ 10 July 2001: Message edited by: smith ]

[ironbutt57]

Wow maxalt!! that's very....blunt, anyway going to hkg, would certainly be shortsighted, as anybody who does so would most certainly be subjected to the same treatment in the future..if they pull it off once, they most certainly will do it again..don't there will be any loyalty to those who might go there as a replacement pilot if they will sack senior pilots...anybody is fair game...

[Augustus Finknottle]

"It's just like '89 again" is the cry. By that I assume you refer to a period when a bunch of overpaid whingers from Downunder engineered a fruitless and ultimately disasterous strike that got them nowhere (except into other peoples jobs overseas). Now the same guys are in Cathay and causing the same trouble. Will the outcome be the same - I just hope the rest of the hard working and modestly paid pilot community don't have to suffer the consequences of hundreds of Ozmates roaming the world in search of our jobs as in the post '89 days.

Just in case some of you think my post a little harsh, would anyone from CX care to post the average monthly takehome for a mid ranking B777 skipper - then we can all make a judgement as to the validity of these "A Scale" type payrise demands.

[fire wall]

maxalt...."all hat and no horse" ... or is it "Big mouth = Little Brain" ahhhh whatever. Frankly I do not see what you are complaining about, you were used to being shafted at your little public school .. non?

[ 10 July 2001: Message edited by: fire wall ]

[Notso Fantastic]

In view of the mass sackings starting at CX and the alleged introduction of mainland equipment and crews, is it time to whip up support so that CX aeroplanes that do go abroad might not get back to HKG? Blacking used to be an effective tool, and if handling is done by other airlines abroad, then that is the way to prevent strike breaking.

[fire wall]

that is a very good suggestion.

[Kaptin M]

all in all, no real surprises...if Tony is confident, let him go ahead and sack the lot.
If everything goes "to (the Turnbull/Tyler) plan" and follows the Aussie 1989 format, the pilots will cave in after 8 months..CX will offer (at least) a 50% salary INcrease over the HKAOA's original ambit...and CX will wallow in the doldrums for the next 10-12 years, as Ansett has done!
Remember, in 1989 there were 4 - FOUR - airlines who entered the "Dispute" - East-West, IPEC, TAA, and Ansett.

ONE "survived" - Ansett - and IT is struggling to eek an existence!!

A 75% FAILURE rate is NOT a good foundation upon which to base future/current industrial "wars"!!

[maxalt]

Well hey, what comes around goes around.

Maybe some of our sad colleagues in Aer Lingus might be glad of your jobs too...their crummy little company is going down faster than a lead balloon. Serves the smug b'stards right too. As far as I'm concerned you CX guys are just like those ALT guys...looking down on us 'budget types' as being rubbish and yet expecting our support in your exorbitant pay claims. Get real. it's reality check time.
Your all going to feel the pinch.

-----------------
FR rule the skys.

[Sir Algernon Scruggs]

The AOA really do need to get their PR machine out and running. This little quote is in a piece in both the New York Times and the International Herald Tribune: Cathay Pacific's rocky relations with its pilots may seem odd, given that they are among the best paid in the world. A senior captain can earn more than $450,000; many are British or Australian expatriates.


Invest in some proper PR and get the misinformed journalists updated on salaries and even more importantly working conditions otherwise you will find yourselves increasingly isolated. The journalists have obviously been fed this cr@p by the Cathay bosses and they love it because it makes 'exciting' reading. We all know that the press never let the truth get in the way of a good story so wise up and give them something to use on your own behalf. War is always dirty.

[emdeeeighty]

I think any pilot on this board who bashes a Cathay pilot should get his head examined. Being a pilot and a devout unionist goes hand in hand. We're all in it for the same things, and those things need to be fought for and supported by all. If you're so unhappy with your current situation, then by all means, apply for a new job. But don't get sauced and spout your ignorance on the internet. Otherwise you just sound like a few of the "undesirables" I have to work with on occasion.

CAL MD-80

[ 10 July 2001: Message edited by: emdeeeighty ]

[Kaptin M]

Sorry Alge, I think I might have posted this on another thread, in reply to your response above. Anyway here I go again...Alzheimer's...seems like a disease CX management are suffering from -

You mean something along the lines of:
"Cathay pilots exploited as Asian Underdogs!"
Whilst American and European employed pilots enjoy conditions that suitably reward their long struggle to achieve that elusive and highly responsible position of 'caretaker of aircraft and contents', Asian pilots - and in particular, Cathay Pacific pilots - are denied recognition of this same responsibility.

Cathay management have refused to acknowledge (that) their pilots' precious (human) "cargo" is worth the same financial value as western countries' passengers, by attempting to force that airline's (Cathay's) cockpit crew to accept lesser conditions than their American and European counterparts!

Is a Chinese passenger's airfare, life, and right to technical expertise, any less than a citizen of a non-Asian country?

Shall I continue...or would you gents like to enlist some PROFESSIONAL help??

[411A]

Emdeeeighty---
<being a pilot and a devout unionist go hand in hand>
Well my friend, I can think of at least a hundred guys who would think your statement is a load of rubbish.
Hmmm, think you are totally misinformed.
If this is the second "action" by the CX guys.....maybe third time lucky.

[ 10 July 2001: Message edited by: 411A ]

[Prof2MDA]

Who is flying the wet lease for CX, does anybody know? Who are these pilots?

[ironbutt57]

Emdeeeighty....full of crapola...ask all the former braniff, frontier, and eastern how great the union is...wait 'till good old alpo screws you once or twice then let's hear you start crying...

[what_the_hell_was_that?]

Yet another intelligent post from Maxalt. After a quick search of your previous posts it appears that you have nothing better to do than flame individuals or companies.

Maxalt, if you have nothing sensible to say, then don't bother at all, particularly on a thread like this where people's futures may well be at stake.

There's enough as*holes out there without adding your name to the list... :mad:

[ 10 July 2001: Message edited by: what_the_hell_was_that? ]

[receding 'airline]

Augustus - I came across this article on their union's website a few days ago. Cathay's salaries don't appear to stack up that well compared to other airlines.

salary figures (http://bbs.hkalpa.org/public/information/Press/2001%20Press/SALARY~1.PDF)

For the record, I don't (and never have) worked them and had nothing to do with '89. Just trying to bring some reality and objectivity into the debate.

[ironbutt57]

Would be interesting to compare the whole package provident fund, housing school alowances etc...etc...while the salaries sure don't compare to a us major airline for sure, all the goodies must make it reasonably close...

[Cisco Kid]

If the guys at Cx feel it´s not enough then it´s NOT ENOUGH ! They have no interest in destroying their livelihood ,the rostering situation ,for all you wannabees who don´t know the downside is dire,maybe it isn´t only money,prhaps it´s about respect ,& whatever they can achieve can only benefit us all.So stop the jealousy crap & start looking at your own contracts...AAhhh feel much better now! good luck Cisco..

[CaptSensible]

Hi what_the_hell...
maxalt is the alter ego of one 'Compton', an alleged Ryanair driver.

If I was a Ryanair pilot I'd be feeling pretty ashamed and disgusted at the bile from this guy. It's rather surprising that no-one in FR has yet told him to shut up.

Perhaps his attacks on ALT crews amuse his comrades.

Unfortunately you CX folk are now attracting his attention.

You can rest assured that there is much sympathy here in ALT for the CX guys. We wish you the best of luck. Your struggle is ours too...don't forget we are 'oneworld' partners.

[Slasher]

I wouldnt exactley discount maxalt. His posts and others prove at least the sc@bs are aware of whats happening and waiting in the wings readey to pounce at the earliest oportunity. Unfortunatley this mutant breed of subhuman will always be around our industry.

Good luck to all CX pilots.

[The Prisoner]

My prediction is that the company will reinstate the sacked pilots as long as the industrial action is called off. The union members will accept the 6+3% rise for "B" scalers, and call off the action. Unfortunatly management may have this dispute sussed.Most the second officers are quivering in their socks over industrial action.None want to return to Australia just yet.

[Tosh26]

CX Pilots

Come on guys, you really must wake up – it’s only your friends looking in from afar who can tell you this. Your battle is going to be won or lost on the PR front and you’re not doing well at the moment. Your opponents have to be shamed by public opinion into resuming negotiations – once that happens you can call the tune but not until. Similarly, a few holes below the opponent's waterline are going to rally your own troops no end!

Quote: Ms Sandra Li, HK Economic Services Secretary

(The economy)”should in no way be hijacked by the actions of a few hundred people or a number of people who have repeatedly in the last few years been threatening actions of one kind or another”

That followed a preamble of:

“More than 90 percent of Cathay Pacific’s flight crew are foreigners – many being British or Australian expatriates – and expecting them to be accountable to HK’s wider interests may be asking for the impossible” (Reported in the Straits Times, Singapore, 11 July 2001).

Now if that isn’t straight from the CX PR department then the moon is made of cheese.

Perhaps a PR response may be along the lines of:

“Most of our pilots are long term HK residents, accompanied by their families and whose childrens’ education and development is tied to the long term social and economic well being of the Special Area of Responsibility (SAR). Unfortunately a dispute has arisen between the pilots and a newly arrived, 100 percent foreign management, who now refuse to enter further discussion, to secure their shareholders future interests and the SAR’s wider interests and development”.

However, the above is far better as an attack than a defensive counter – so get moving – your opponents are arrogant, prickly and personally dislike the pilots they deal with (obvious from watching CNN interviews) so any proactive PR move on your part is really going to rattle them – then they’ll get personal and start making emotion induced mistakes - as well as looking like horses’ arses.

Best regards

[mutt]

Ironbutt57,

I don’t believe that you can consider housing and schooling to be goodies. They are necessities required to bring you up to a regular standard of living.

In this part of the world (ME), we do get housing packages but we will never own the property, as for schooling, if I was at home my kids (if any) would go to a free state school, around here we would be required to pay a fortune for schooling, hence the requirement to include it in any pay package.

Mutt http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/guin.gif

[highcirrus]

I read the same article in the Straits Times from which Tosh quotes. He did not mention that the same theme was echoed in the Chinese language Ming Pao Daily News which went on to further say:

“Pilots who command salaries considered amongst the highest in the world should fulfil their responsibility to the travelling public by putting an end to the industrial action. Senior pilots earn about HK$3.4 million a year, which is more than twice the pay of pilots at Germany’s Lufthansa Airlines”.

I would think that the above also emanates from the Cathay PR Department and I do believe that the negative perceptions aimed at must be countered with professional assistance.

Further, Associate Professor Andy Chan of Hongkong Polytechnic University’s Department of Management (tame academic in the pay of a PR firm?) noted that all members of the HKAOA organising committee are foreigners, before continuing:

“(The foreign pilots) attitude towards the territory’s wider interest would differ from that of local pilots. Pilots recruited overseas could switch to another airline if sacked – although this could mean a loss of seniority – but would be less feasible (why?) for locally trained pilots to do so”.

Cathay spokesman Tony Tyler then said;

“I think the pilots will make a choice. Do they want to carry on with industrial action or get back to work? We’re pretty sure a large number will do that (how many and what is your source of information? – ed). The average pilot doesn’t want any of this”.

The only thing the pilots union came up with was that it was not backing down on its demands for higher pay and better rostering practices.

I must agree with Tosh. You really must do better than this, as the last bit sounds pathetic. You must drop all this stuff about how the management has been playing dirty tricks for the last few years. Get your own offensive going, using the same weapons. Root around a little and find the track record of your opponents, their salaries and bonuses, their options when moving on from HK having left Cathay a shell of its former self, your shareholders' feelings on the declining value of their holdings. In short, use the guerrilla tactics they use.
If you don’t, they’ll beat you using the twin tactic displayed so vividly above – foreign devils ruining HK + divide the ranks and rely on a drift back to work. So please do not fall into the trap – get your own PR people to plant your own stories with your own spin – it’ll work wonders on a population that doesn’t give a toss about roster practices etc!

[Nihontraveller]

Are you sure about that Mutt?

Would your kids really be in government schools at home? Would those schools be anything like the standard that you enjoy in HK?

With a housing allowance maybe you won`t ever own the property but it`s for free right? Presumably you are buying another place somewhere in the world or investing the money you don`t have to lay out in HK.

As a long-term expat in Asia I know how easy to take those things for granted.

That is not to say that the CX management is not heavy-handed but the pilots should be careful not to lose sight of that reality.

[Tom Tipper]

PR Improvements needed from CX pilots - agreed wholeheartedly.

Messrs Demery and Findlay: PC wants job with Airport Authority (bypassed recently to current incumbent). Dislikes CEO intensely. TT wanted Air NZ CEO post (bypassed to Dixon) now off to BA after all of this (?). Investigate further and use judiciously.

PR Point: THESE ARE HARDLY THE ACTIONS OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE CX BEST INTERESTS AT HEART (the very public basis of their problems with aircrew).

These guys are out of CX ASAP and are only using victory over you guys as personal milestones for their CV's. Use this stuff wisely in the press and it makes great 'sound-bites' - the stuff PR battles are won and lost by.

Sound Bite 1: Many of our pilots have been with Cathay Pacific for over 20 years. They have and will contribute far more to the long-term success of the Company than many of the individuals at Cathay orchestrating this vendetta against them.

Sound Bite 2: This is a thinly veiled vendetta against expatriate employees. It is taking on the appearance more of retribution for years of colonial control of Hong Kong than the real issue - a dispute over the degraded working conditions of Cathay pilots.

These aren't definitive and may sound overly-dramatic but are an example of stuff that makes newspaper headlines and can effectively alter the mood of the dispute.

Good luck.

[ 11 July 2001: Message edited by: Tom Tipper ]

[ 11 July 2001: Message edited by: Tom Tipper ]

[Thrust]

The contents of this post, which pointed to the identity of one of the contributors to this thread, have been removed to the Administration forum for review.

We don't like people being outed and take the hump, no matter who they are. Don't do it again please.

Sick Squid
Rumours and News Moderator
[email protected].

[ 11 July 2001: Message edited by: Sick Squid ]

[ironbutt57]

Thrust..you unionizers are so childish...why do you even give him a thought if he upsets you so much ignore it...so what? anybody with any ga light airplane experience knows what a heap a cessna 411 is anyway...flown 'em lots before...a nonsensical airplane for sure....anyway sure you have to go back to pissing out the fire in the harbour...good luck....but there are lots of current ansett pilots drooling over your jobs so beware..matey...know lots of them hear the comments...hope it doesn't happen for the sake of the industry...cheers

[411A]

Would have to agree with IB57, the union guys sure are childish, and would also expect that CV's are being polished up now by many, to fill the new positions that will certainly materialize at CX. These guys missed their opportunity to settle their "problems" weeks ago and now find themselves on the short end.
Some guys never learn.

[Tom Tipper]

Well Ive er seen it all now - that sure is some fancy detective work there boys! :p

[Kubota]

411...You don't upset me half as much anymore now that you have a face. :rolleyes: In fact, you seem quite pathetic.

[mutt]

Nihon traveller,

I guess that I didn’t make this clear enough, In this part of the world (ME), The ME part was supposed to stand for Middle East and definitely not Hong Kong. Sorry for the confusion.

Mutt.

[ironbutt57]

So why hide like children there Kubota post it here...Kubota...japanese copy of a real tractor caterpillar...good name for a wannabee...suppose you ride a harley-shaped honda as well?

[FL390]

Hmmm, ironbutt57, that name sounds as though you have a butt made of iron and it is 57 years old! :p :p :p :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[caulfield]

The gentleman aviator of bygone days is now a defunct notion.In those hey-days of Imperial Airways where a Captain really was a Captain and simple virtues such as good manners werent derided,you never saw the turmoil that plagues the airline industry today.Pilots were drawn from the ranks of the military with a strong sense of respect and discipline.They werent flight-deck managers,they were pilots!Tradition and the nobility of the profession meant something.
What we've got now is a pale shadow of the real article.Automation and CRM,whilst intrinsically a form of progression,did have their negative effects.THey levelled the playing-field and left us with an egalitarian and antiseptic environment in which to work in.Inevitably,the changing role of the pilot led to the "new-breed",indistinguishable from a bank manager with one eye on their bank balance and the other on their unions ballot paper.Of course pilots werent alone in this social and cultural metamorphosis.The decay of British society(for it is mostly a British disease) that started in the sixties has left its mark on all corners of life.Whereas once we had Churchill,we now have Blair.Family values have been replaced by single-parenting.Bedtime stories have lost out to Nintendo.
So if industrial action is now a part of our lives in much the same way as it was once the domain of a coal-miner,so be it.Let us use this tool with restraint and fairness.Otherwise its going to turn around and bite us where it hurts.

[SLF3]

To summarise:

Management:

'We will pay you identically what it costs to keep you for as long as we need you, and nothing thereafter.

Pilots:

'Never forget we have a choice.'

It seems that management (rightly or wrongly) think they are paying too much, and the pilots (rightly or wrongly) they are receiving too little. Differing perceptions of the supply and demand situation.

Don't get mad, get even. Take what you are offered. If it is not enough, find another job and quit. If it is enough, stay.

If you strike you will damage the airline, possibly fatally: who then benefits?

[411A]

SLF3---
More or less, you've got the picture.
In some of the smaller companies, say for example 10 aircraft or less, the flight crew and management still do tend to work together for the common benefit of both. There is a mutual understanding for both to succeed. As companies grow larger however, the "us vs them" mentality creeps in, and the larger the company becomes, the larger the problem.
When I started with SIA years ago, they had only 14 aircraft, were a very small player in the worlds' market with great ambitions.
When I left 5 years later, they had grown to 29 aircraft and the contentious attitudes had started.
There is a definate benefit to remaining small in a niche market.
The CX guys have a very big problem. The Brits are no longer in charge in HKG and accountants now run the airline. Shareholder value is to be preserved by keeping expenses low (including pilot's salaries) and if management don't do so, they will be run over by the cement truck of cheaper competition.
If the CX pilots want much higher salaries, they will have to look elsewhere.
I notice that they still do not choose to reveal what their senior guys make now.
I wonder why? Could it be that they will be embarrassed?

[Wino]

Ahh 411, 20 or 30 aircraft and it got contentious? As I recall you are management. Could you have been the problem?

I can point to an airline with more than 350 aircraft that has fine labor relations. Take a gander at Southwest. That is what GOOD management can accomplish. By the way, only half way through their contract, managment is working on giving the pilots a raise to keep up with the rest of the industry (inspite of this alleged recession.).

Southwest is very heavily unionized, yet enjoys good labor relations.

Its all in the management.

Frontier just gave its pilots a mid contract raise as well (a rather hefty one I might add).

Are these company's "caving"? I think not, they are realizing the value of a happy work force, and they continue to make money as a result. The oportunities for waste in an airline business are staggering. If everyone isn't on board and smiling you just can't make money.

Management must make their employees happy, simply ruling with an iron fist has been repeatedly disproved in this industry.

Cheers
Wino

[Kaptin M]

In my opinion, the pilots are WAY AHEAD of the knee-jerk reactions exhibited by Turnbull, Tyler and co.
To date, the pilots have taken no action at all...they have followed CX's operating procedures to the letter - as the company would undoubtedly expect them to - making the scheduled times unrealistic. Previously, the company had relied on the pilots "goodwill" to get the aircraft out on sched, however, goodwill is supposed to be a 2-way street. And it hasn't been.

To date, the pilots have effectively done NOTHING at all - it is Cathay management who have been running around like a beheaded chicken - hiring outside aircraft and crews (regardless of cost) trying (unsuccessfully) to guess the pilots next move, which to date hasn't been anything!.....sacking pilots whom they want to believe were at the crux of the problem, when in fact it is the majority of the pilot group who have had it up to their back teeth!.....desperately attempting to win public support for their anti-worker, jackboot, Gestapo tactics, by flooding the media with press releases and offers of interviews which attempt to portray the pilots as overpaid, white devil elitists, whilst conveniently ignoring their own salaries and benefits packages which would EACH pay the salary of 7 pilots. But the truth is, Chinese RESPECT big salary earners, they understand and accept AUTHORITARIANISM and OPPRESSION, but they (secretly) yearn for FREEDOM from the regime that SUPPRESSES them - Tianamen Square massacre; Bruce Lee's "Fists of Fury"; CX pilots' struggle with tyrants Turnbull and Tyler!

Winston Churchill's "We have not yet begun to fight", would be a fairly appropriate quip in the CX pilots' current struggle to free themselves from the foreign oppressive management who show no recognition to their workers.

That Singapore is playing this to the fullest is no surprise, for they have the most to gain from the fallout of Cathay Pacific's pilots - historically, CX pilots have chosen SIA as the airline they will work for when their time with Cathay is over.

[emdeeeighty]

"Ironbutt", I wasn't referring to ALPA, I was referring to pilots thoughout the world. And you were there for Eastern, Frontier, et. al? You make me sick.

[ 11 July 2001: Message edited by: PPRuNe Towers ]

[ironbutt57]

yes was there my friend where were you...embry riddle? highschool? disneyland?

[SEAT 81A]

I have warned about the poor PR of HKAOA long time ago (page 1 of the thread Countdown at Cathay). Unfortunately, no one seems to take it seriously until now.

My next warning is, CX got full spport from China. Most HK people is prepared to take some risk to fix this "expat pilot problem" once and for ever.

And Captain M: at the beginning of this thread, you mentioned that 52 pilots could operate 5 a/c. CX has about 65 a/c and on this base, they should have just 676 pilots. Either your number is wrong or CX has got 1,000 pilots more than what they need. In CX, each a/c is look aftered by about 25 pilots.

[mcdude]

seat 81a - yes Kaptin M is wrong with his maths; more like 15 crew per aircraft.

The problem is purely between the AOA and CX - it is not a PR exercise for the aircrew.

"China" has never been a big fan of CX - i.e. why don't they fly there now?

What about the "expat management problem"?

[411A]

If the situation is carried full circle, China may well tell the HKG government that Cathay is to be wound down or, in the interim, CX are to maximise wet-leasing of aircraft to cover for the obstinate CX expat crews, planning for their eventual replacement.
Echo of OZ '89 perhaps?
As for the CX pilots SIA, having had so many problems with these guys before, may well choose NOT to hire them, preferring to avoid the pain in the neck. I wonder, where will they go then?

[slam_dunk]

SLF 3, 411A you disappoint me very much!!
What side are you on ??

Wino, I fully agree with you.

United we stand, divided we fall !!! (Quote from a former Dutch Alpa president)

Slam_dunk

[Applycarbheat]

Looks to me as if they are on the side of fairness and common sense.
Unlike some of the greedy and OVERPAID pilots.

[bertieb]

Spot the tube watcher! Ping.... :p :D ;)

[bertieb]

Oh and good luck guys don't let the BA%&*$DS grind you down. :)

[ClearDirect]

Applycarbheat
What's your problem?

In this fine capitalist system we live in, free collective bargaining is supposed to be the fair way of doing things. Their system is not really free and it will take extra skill to offset that disadvantage.
If they have the power and skill to negotiate a good deal in the circumstances, more power to them.

You sound a little envious,perhaps you come from a more socialist environment?

Maybe if you applied the capitalist philosophy you would be more prosperous and less envious.

[Kaptin M]

SEAT 81A and mcdude, the "5 crews" per aircraft is "crew" as in Captain, F/O, F/E, AND S/O, which is a short term figure as used in the 1989 Australian Dispute by the airlines, but cited by them as "being all the pilots we need"...it carried them through for about 5 months, but is totally unrealistic for longer term operations.
And I don't believe any realistic management is going to base an industrial battle on the 1989 Aussie Dispute - of the 4 Airlines that were there at the start, only 1 (barely) remains today, Ansett.
East-West, IPEC, and Australian Airlines (TAA) were all so severely financially crippled that they ceased to operate - Australian (TAA) were amalgamated with QANTAS (to become QANTAS domestic), to enable cash to be injected more freely for survival.

CX would be utilising around the 5-7 crews per aircraft, then factoring in non-availability due to leave (recreation, and medical), recurrent training and licence renewal (simulator), conversion and upgrade training, etcetera. The 1600-odd number that SEAT 81A cites is total PILOT number - not CREW number.

[ 11 July 2001: Message edited by: Kaptin M ]

[Mapshift]

If the people they sacked are all "89ers...then good on them.who needs miserable rabble-rousers as pilots anyway...hope they are all blackballed by other carriers looking for pilots...most know them for what they are....

[Mapshift]

Look boys it's like this...we are expats working as contract pilots...if it goes to crap..it's bad we all have families to feed, and bills to pay and futures too look forward to..we all know when we become expats, this is subject to the whim of some tosser running the airline...it SUCKS..but it's life..so fight as we must.."coz our cause it is just"..we have to realize that it may turn out bad...lets not fall into the same trap as those morons did in oz in'89, and lets not let those miserable loosers lead us down the same path to destruction they so blindly followed a few short years ago...capitulate???..NO...use our heads??? yes...lets save this airline from them...and ourselves.....

[ 11 July 2001: Message edited by: Mapshift ]

[Tom Tipper]

...........oh and Mr Mapshift, suggest you have a few little aggression problems to deal with. Just relax, take a deep breath and calm down young man, perhaps a little therapy - your posts will be far more eloquent then. Next time you're in Dublin go and have a Guiness, that always works wonders.

"Morons" Losers, no sorry "Loosers"...jeez, well thought out stuff though - keep it coming eh! :)

[Bob Hawke]

Hey Tommy, the barstards have been doing it all their lives, selling out to Management, dumping on anybody that is in their way, trading their grandmothers/mothers/daughters for a quick gain here and there.

Mapshift and co., don't know integrity if it bit them on the arse'ol. They would prefer to be in the industrial revolution days of despotic little management snitching shivers, looking for a spine to run up.

He's obviously a company stooge, and you can bet he's got something to gain.

Meanwhile chaps, keep up the good work. Don't worry, I won't send in the airforce this time.

[ 12 July 2001: Message edited by: Bob Hawke ]

[raitfaiter]

Remember that 4 of the sacked pilots are Union committee members, in some cases part of the negotiating team. With that in mind,how can there be any sort of negotiated amicable end to this dispute? Where is the exit door for either side? :confused:

[Capt PPRuNe]

Just a shot accross the bows! Before those of you who are incapable of keeping a debate, even a heated one such as this, from disintegrating into a pathetic brawl get too carried away remember that those with opposing views to your own have as much right to air them as you do yours.

You all know who you are and if you think that slagging one person off just because they hold a different or opposing view to your own will get you anywhere then you had better wake up and get a reality check! You may not like what people like 411a have to say but remember that there are many other people out there who have the same views but are not prepared to make them public. Just jumping in and trying to be clever by 'outing' these people on here or even worse, just using pathetic ranting to try and knock them down isn't going to work.

Grow up and realise that the only way to make a point is to use reasoned argument. If it gets a bit heated then stop and count to ten before continuing. There is nothing more pathetic than watching someone 'lose it' in an argument by resrting to name calling and hysterical screaming!

If there were no people out there that disagreed with what this topic is all about then there wouldn't be a debate and there probably wouldn't be any industrial action in HK. Act your ages and get it through your heads that the only way to convice anyone that you are right is to put forward a proper and well thought out argument. Calling someone petty names shows you to be sad and a loser.

If you are incapable of debating the points then please find another forum. :mad:

[Red-liner]

Capt PPrune,

You're quite right. My apologies to anyone who may have been offended by my previous posting. (that'll probably be the non-ignorant and non-loudmouthed variety of American) :o

[abfgh]

All the best to you guys at CX. :cool:

[FL390]

Just heard from a Captain that has been "removed from service" :(. DOnt' give up mate (and the other 51). You'll be back soon.

[PCav8or]

I have been following this mess for a while now. I don't work for CX & seeing what's going on I never would want to, but figured I'd just add my two cents worth anyway.

We have a management here who appear to be talking $$$ all the time. They feel the pilots are overpaid and must be brought in line. It makes me wonder what their wages are like & what sacrifices they intend to make to "keep the ship afloat"????!!!!!

All this makes me think about the early 80's when Chrysler was going belly-up in the States & Lee Iaccoa was at the helm. He took a salary of $1/yr before instituting any cuts for the employees. Now that's a manager!!!!! Turnbull & the rest of his sharks should take a page out of that man's book.

I have to add that I thing the pilots at CX are a tremendous bunch, very professional & commited. I have flown the airline a number of times & have also had the opportunity to be in the cockpit for landings, take off & in the cruise. You boys should hang tough now & knock Turnbull & co for six!!!

Enough said!!!!!!

[ 12 July 2001: Message edited by: PCav8or ]

[SEAT 81A]

Kaptin M: Thanks for the explanation, and my apology for mis-spelling your name on my previous post.

mcdude: To be exact, China is on the side on Hong Kong. For both economic reason and political reason, Hong Kong's prosperity is still extremely important for China. It will ensure that everyone going to Hong Kong will have a smooth journey, thus off set any damage from the industrial action. In comparison, the "expat mgmt problem" is minor. They don't care about a few people in CX being overpaid as long as the carrier can provide smooth operations at reasonable cost. Nevertheless, HK will open up its sky faster to reduce reliance on CX.

And for those who tell the CX pilots to keep on fighting: ask yourself how much details you know about the situation. Do you know the labor law in HK? (HKAOA never use the word STRIKE because there is no law to protect them and company can fire people who go on strike without compensation) Do you know how much a Chinese pilot made in a year? (US$20,000) etc etc. If you do believe that you have enough knowledge, and your suggestion is made after careful thoughts rather than wishful thinking, then say so. Otherwise, although you have the good intend, you are not really helping them. Most of the time, reality is bitter and not what we want.

[411A]

Seat81A---
You are quite right about the Chinese government intending to reduce reliance on CX for travel to HKG.
Suspect however that the Cathay pilots would rather think back to yesteryear when CX was the only game in town. If CX is to continue to grow and proper, it MUST keep costs in check, for that is exactly what its competition is doing. If the 'A' scale is to disappear, then that is the price that the pilots will have to pay to keep their jobs. The HKAOA simply does not have the muscle in the present regulatory and economic climate to do otherwise. If they were, for example, Delta Airlines, then the story would be completely different. But they are not, so second fiddle is the only seat available in the orchestra.

[Bigpants]

Chinese Pilots on $20,000 a year Second Fiddle? Like the Captain said reasoned debate please.
Just what is the safety record of theses pilots both of you mention with such enthusiasm?
If you think that any sensible sized company is going to send its top people on an aircraft crewed by people like that I think you have lost touch with reality.
The Cathay Crews are top notch professionals and should be paid a decent wage for what is a First Class Safety Record.

[411A]

Bigpants---
The general Chinese airline safety record is, without a doubt, abysmal. I would now expect a very big push toward a safety audit of these carriers, much the same as the KE audit of the recent past. Once this is done, expect to see these airlines give CX a run for the money. In the meantime, expect CX to soldier on as best it can, with or without the co-operation of its present pilots.
Interesting times ahead in the Pearl river delta.

[GlueBall]

It's not just Turnbull and his pitbulls who are posturing and creating upheaval at CX.
The big picture, if you can't quite imagine it just yet, is that HK companies are being cued by the mainlanders. Which is to say that highly compensated CX pilots may all be reemployed as, or replaced by, lesser compensated "Air Crew Services" type pilots from anywhere. Political and practical realities will prevail. Communist style.

[Poke Guy]

GlueBall:

If what you said is true then the first few to go should be Turnbull, Tyler, Barley, Leggat, et el instead of the 52 pilots. Philip Chen and Alan Wong can take over and run CX with help from Stanley Hui and Tung Chihuahua.

[gaya]

SEAT 81A, that's spot on. The legal system in HK doesn't give much credence to union activity, and there's little protection against mass sackings. Think management will be looking to get less demanding "docile" pilots as replacements - does anyone know for instance if any Chinese pilots were amongst the sacked ones? And were the majority flying long haul or short haul routes? You need to get a lot more emotive on the PR front if you are going to stand a chance, guys - best of luck!

[newswatcher]

Latest report from BBC has CX mgt claims of "close to 90% service". In fact it goes on to suggest that some of the "loan" planes will be returned.

"This weekend, it plans to return three of the 17 planes it chartered from other airlines to plug gaps in the schedule caused by the dispute over pay and conditions.

Furthermore, it will "look to release more of the 14 remaining chartered aircraft over the coming week".

Services to three destinations - Perth, Hanoi and Penang - will be restored over the weekend but scheduled flights to seven destinations remain disrupted, the company said."

[raitfaiter]

I understand that 4 of the sacked pilots are Chinese.

[SEAT 81A]

I have to clarify that my "Chinese Pilots" refer to those employed by the Mainland Chinese airlines, not the ethnic Chinese pilots employed by CX who are from Hong Kong.

The US$20,000 number is what they said to the media. I do not see any reason for them to lie, and this is still very respectable income in China. I am just a SLF so have no idea on the licensing system, but I think they porbably went through similar trainings and exams as you guys. Next time before you complain your own salary, try to think of your poor comrades in China first.

About safely of the Chinese airlines, it is actually quite good. Most of their accidents are on the very old planes (USSR made, Trident etc) and by now, they should have all been replaced. Second, there are significant safety reforms in recent years. If I remember correctly, there are only three fatal accident in the past 6 or 7 years. One is the crash of a TU144, the other is a local made turbo prop crashed in Wuhan, and I will count only the hard landing of a 737 by China Southern Airline in Shenzhen as the typical accident that we count.

Most people prefer CX for safety reason, but not a must. I have no problem flying on any Chinese Airlines but I would avodie CI, KE, and GA as much as possible. I also remember when I read the thread about the SQ006 crash, a lot of the discussions were about that an airline's system is an important factor for safety.