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11percent
28th Oct 2009, 21:32
Heard on the grape vine that Jet* are going to cripple Tiger by poaching it's pilot's and thereby limit tiger's expansion. Can anyone confirm?

zanzibar
28th Oct 2009, 21:46
the pilots may as well follow the passengers from Tiger ...............

Bootstrap1
28th Oct 2009, 22:03
you can only poach if they want to leave,what happens if they dont want to leave

The Stooge
28th Oct 2009, 22:16
And let me guess next, Tiger will then have to poach from REX and then we will all be [email protected]

VBPCGUY
28th Oct 2009, 22:30
Tiger to AVV was reported in yesterdays Herald Sun

Mr. Hat
28th Oct 2009, 22:42
Correct me if I'm wrong but I suspect the Tiger guys might be about to negotiate an EBA.

Shot Nancy
28th Oct 2009, 22:47
I thought Air China were recruiting pilots from Jet*.

OneDotLow
28th Oct 2009, 22:53
I had heard that Tiger were about to interview a whole bunch of jq guys...

It seems that confusion reins... everyone will poach everyone else's pilots and the status quo will remain.

Mr. Hat
28th Oct 2009, 23:00
One Dot, basically these days people move jobs like they change underwear. Conditions are gone and loyalty has followed.

Some Jetstar fo's might take a quick upgrade at Tiger and then go to Air China!

Karunch
28th Oct 2009, 23:40
Sounds like a great plan except the Jetstar pilots keep failing the Air China interview sim. Something about those crosswind landings apparantly....

Mr. Hat
29th Oct 2009, 00:41
Out of interest whats so good about Air China anyway? What is the package?

11percent
29th Oct 2009, 00:54
re the DRW guy's. heard that it was all about point a loaded gun at jq management and once desired effect occured, they pulled out of the tiger process

Metro man
29th Oct 2009, 01:30
re the DRW guy's. heard that it was all about point a loaded gun at jq management and once desired effect occured, they pulled out of the tiger process

Possibly this time it's all about pointing a loaded gun at Tiger management and once desired effect occurs, they will pull out of the Jetstar process.:E

I think it has already been tried, soon after Tiger started key personnel recieved attractive offers to jump ship.

Of course pilots moving from either company would lose their place on the seniority list and have to start at the bottom again which would be a strong incentive to stay. All the benefits and security built up by loyal service over the years would be gone. Oh, hang on that doesn't apply anymore does it.:E

Note that in Singapore both Tiger and Jetstar have a clause in the employment contract prohibiting a pilot from working for another airline in Singapore within six months of leaving. One answer to poaching but not entirely sure how it would go down in Australia.;)

Karunch
29th Oct 2009, 02:21
Mr Hat, in answer to 'what's so good about Air China'- the short answer is that they treat their pilots with respect. Something the older Australian pilots will remember & the younger ones have yet to experience (and are unlikely to in the current environment), Cheers.

quim
29th Oct 2009, 03:18
Seems that the monkeys just can't get enough peanuts....:ouch:

2p!ssed2drive
29th Oct 2009, 04:05
i heard tiger were going to poach qantas pilots :}

Wod
29th Oct 2009, 04:31
The way you blokes go on about the management of the carriers involved, I would have thought you didn't believe they could poach an egg, let alone a pilot. :ok:

Zoomy
29th Oct 2009, 06:00
Can someone please explain?

If I work for J*, is somebodey from tiger going to write/phone/email me and offer me a job?
And visa versa if I work for tiger?

The point is, personally, if I worked for either one and was not happy or thought the grass was greener, then I would initiate the move across, ie
I don't think I would be poached like an A league Baseball player.

How does one poach a pilot? Ans 6 hours on the ground at good ole Yagga Yagga or Balgo or perhaps well 33 on the canning stock route.:ouch:

The Stooge
29th Oct 2009, 06:07
Karunch, perhaps they had better send LKH over to China to see how it is done ;)

Tankengine
29th Oct 2009, 09:01
So, what is the pay [and other conditions] difference??:confused:

galdian
29th Oct 2009, 09:39
and being subtle as always:

why are you MORONS using the word "poached"??

In both pornstar and pussy you, individually, one way or another, have PAID FOR THAT ENDORSEMENT - you OWN that endorsement because you PAID for that endorsement.

If another business wishes to offer you more to use YOUR endorsement that YOU paid for then...up to you.

"Market forces" saw the LCC carriers emerge, "market forces" also says if I pay for my endorsement I can go where I like, when I like etc.

Not as I would prefer but times change - however if anyone is stupid enough to say the LCC model encourages 'loyalty' I'll be more than happy to p*ss myself laughing!

Cheers all.

Mud Skipper
29th Oct 2009, 10:06
The true problem galdian is the seniority concept.

This should have been abolished as soon as pilots started paying for endorsements. To be truely free agents and not slaves to company XYZ we need to move as any other modern executive - into a position relative to our experience not DOJ. The old fashion concept has served us well while employee loyalty was the rule but now has become an anchor around our professional necks which only favours a very few senior pilots and mostly the employers.

At some stage in the future we will see a court challenge on this most descrimatory practice but it will be a protracted case as it so heavily favours employers which enjoy a slave like control of their pilot body.

Consider a world, with all it's pro & cons, with no seniority:}:}:}:}

gobbledock
29th Oct 2009, 11:24
It is JQ attempting to poach from Tiger, not the reverse. JQ pay rates for Drivers are huge compared to Tigers 'bowl of rice' salary.

Tankengine
30th Oct 2009, 01:21
"huge" verses "ricebowl":rolleyes:

Anybody prepared to name approx numbers?

like : Capt about $180k, F/O $100k etc??????????:confused:

apache
30th Oct 2009, 01:39
Note that in Singapore both Tiger and Jetstar have a clause in the employment contract prohibiting a pilot from working for another airline in Singapore within six months of leaving. One answer to poaching but not entirely sure how it would go down in Australia.


well it seems to be working, as certain companies allegedly have 'agreements" with other companies to not "poach our pilots please". PERHAPS, the Singapore way of doing things has encroached on Australia already?

hongkongfooey
30th Oct 2009, 02:14
JQ pay rates for Drivers are huge compared to Tigers 'bowl of rice' salary.

BS ! @ 75 hrs a month, there is little difference.

Air China is around 14KAUD/month after tax , all you need is 500hrs command A330 and to pass the interview, medical and Chinese ATPL ( to the best of my knowledge they are not taking A320 drivers unless previous widebody experience )

Metro man
30th Oct 2009, 15:46
Poaching implies contacting the pilots and offering them jobs directly, which might be seen as a bit underhand.

Now on the other hand if an advert were to be placed in Fridays Australian offering attractive terms and conditions to pilots with specific qualifications which just happened to match those of the pilots you wanted to lure away that is obviously a different matter.;)

captaintunedog777
30th Oct 2009, 22:48
Hey Longdongpooy

According to my sources. Most 320 drivers are on at least 190 upto 220 per year and 330 drivers on 220 and as high as 260 ish. Peanuts aint it. Yeah right. And that does not include Super and limited overnights. Your 14 clear a month with Air Chong is surpassed by most 330 captains.

Beer Baron
30th Oct 2009, 23:40
captaintunedog777: I find it very hard to believe JQ330 drivers are pulling in 260K. Why not just let the QF 330 crews fly them?

I'd be happy to be corrected, good on em' if it's true!

KABOY
31st Oct 2009, 00:35
Hey Dog,

That must be why their 330 Captains are applying to Air China, ignorance is bliss!

Prior to unleashing from the hip, ask the 330 guys that have applied to CA why they are interested.
:ugh:

Sand dune Sam
31st Oct 2009, 03:53
JQI had Emirates guys return back to the desert and even one go to V Australia? Both glowing about the company...not!

Metro man
31st Oct 2009, 07:09
The Air China contract may not be as good as it appears, particularly with an Australian base and therefore Aussie taxes. Quick search on the Far East forum needed.

Korean Air may be worth looking at, but once again do some carefull research first.

If anyone finds any decent jobs going please let the rest of us know.

BeerBaron
31st Oct 2009, 21:04
captaintunedog777: your sources are waaaaaaaaaay off

25.1 Base Salary
25.1.1 Pilots covered by this Agreement will be paid the base salary contained in
the table below per annum, from the date of employment, or after
achieving Checked to the Line status following conversion, re-conversion or
upgrade training. Base Salary rate changes will apply from the dates below
and be paid in the first full pay period on or after the dates shown.
WIDE BODY CAPTAIN FO Lvl 1 FO Lvl 2 FO Lvl 3 JUNIOR FO
1 Jan 2008 $165,523 $91,038 $99,314 $107,589 $59,588
1 Jan 2009 $170,489 $93,769 $102,293 $110,817 $61,376
1 Jan 2010 $175,603 $96,582 $105,362 $114,141 $63,217
1 Jan 2011 $180,871 $99,480 $108,523 $117,565 $65,113
1 Jan 2012 $186,298 $102,464 $111,779 $121,092 $67,067
NARROW BODY CAPTAIN FO Lvl 1 FO Lvl 2 FO Lvl 3 JUNIOR FO
1 Jan 2008 $145,195 $79,857 $87,117 $94,377 $52,271
1 Jan 2009 $149,551 $82,253 $89,731 $97,208 $53,839
1 Jan 2010 $154,037 $84,720 $92,422 $100,125 $55,454
1 Jan 2011 $158,659 $87,262 $95,195 $103,128 $57,118
1 Jan 2012 $163,418 $89,880 $98,051 $106,222 $58,831
Note: First Officer rates are calculated as follows:
Level 1 FO 55% of applicable Captainís rate (for initial 12 months)
Level 2 FO 60% of applicable Captainís rate
(after initial 12 months up
to and including 5th year)
Level 3 FO 65% of applicable Captainís rate (after 5th year)

25.5.1 In addition to the annual salary rate, Jetstar will pay pilots an Extra Flying
Allowance for each averaged calendar month Roster Period where the
pilotís total credit hours exceed 75 hours in that roster period.
The Extra Flying Allowance will be paid for each credit hour in excess of
75 hours in that roster period, at the rate calculated as follows:
Annual salary/787.0.

Superannuation 9%

Pay for your own conversion - priceless

Jerr
31st Oct 2009, 21:24
My understanding as an employer here in Oz, that you can put a clause into a contract prohibiting employment within a geographical area after leaving that contract.

Interesting the HR people say that it is actually quite a grey area, it would need to go to court etc, the employee could then say well I have a mortgage, family to feed, so the employee would win...

I know its quite different in Singapore...work over there 6 times a year.

JERR

Anthill
31st Oct 2009, 23:08
Mudskipper, you are absolutly correct. The 'seniority' concept have been the most significant factor in keeping out T&Cs down during a period where market forces should have seen our renumeration blossom.

Seniority is outdated and should be abandoned ASAP, if our conditions are to improve.

I can't wait to hear the responses from the Flat Earth Society...:bored:

Ramboflyer 1
31st Oct 2009, 23:36
SQ may buy into Qantas , Tiger becomes Jetstar or vice versa and no poaching needed. :bored:

Led Zep
1st Nov 2009, 01:32
Junior FO?

Captain Marvel
1st Nov 2009, 01:02
If you flew 1000hrs per year, added holidays on top, got the performance bonus and the retention bonus and worked quite a few days off (generous day off payments), then you might get up to the figures quoted by tunedog, and a very few probably have.

The cost is you would be knackered and probably have no life!

BeerBaron
1st Nov 2009, 01:23
...you might get up to the figures quoted by tunedog

No you wouldn't. He quite clearly said:

...320 drivers are on at least 190 upto 220 per year and 330 drivers on 220 and as high as 260

So he reckons 320 drivers are at least 190, where they are in fact on 149,551 +6% retention bonus, which works out close to $158/$159k.

If you wanted to compare apples and apples, then talk about a QF driver on 1000 hours pa and then compare to the LCC rats.

Tunedog also said Your 14 clear a month with Air Chong is surpassed by most 330 captains. which is also not true.

But don't let a few facts get in your way. Sheesh, 5 mins with google...

Captain Marvel
1st Nov 2009, 02:21
I find it very hard to believe JQ330 drivers are pulling in 260K

As I said, if you worked your butt off including quite a few days off, then you could earn up to that amount.

As I said, there are probably a very few who have, but it is certainly not the norm, far from it.

I am not into a pi$$ing contest with what they earn at QF, I am simply stating that it is possible to earn that figure in J* and I am certainly not defending the pay rates.

As I said, to earn that figure is putting everything else second.

aulglarse
1st Nov 2009, 03:45
CM, you are quite right in that you can earn that amount-however it comes at a,excuse the pun, price....health and lifestyle.

blow.n.gasket
1st Nov 2009, 05:14
Sounds to me like Tunedog just kicked an own goal.
If JetStar are earning as much as what tunedog makes out ,then where is the cost difference between Jetstar and Qantas?????:}

Like I've pointed out elsewhere there appears to be a growing disenchantment with the travelling public reference the orange star.
Try and Google "Qantas sux" and see how many pages there are,
then google "jetstar sux "and wade through ten pages of animosity,
google "tiger sux" and you're lucky to find a couple of pages,why is that?:ooh:

Enema Bandit's Dad
1st Nov 2009, 08:46
Maybe because a lot of Tiger passengers can't spell "sux"? :bored:

hongkongfooey
1st Nov 2009, 08:48
Hey Tunedbog

I think thats USD, not sure, but either way Jeffstar drivers are not earning 260K, thats from my sources who actually work there ( in fact around 240K for a very busy Checky ), if they were, after paying OZ tax they would take home around, wait for it, 14K AUD/month :ouch:
Also, they are not flying 10-12 days/month for that money more like 20 days/month, comparing apples to oranges mate.
Don't remember mentioning " peanuts ", maybe thats what your on :confused:

Most of the Air Chong guys as you so eloquently put it, were earning circa 30KAUD +/month up here before they left so I guess they can afford to live on a paultry 14K net/month in Oz.

Jetbest
1st Nov 2009, 09:02
If JetStar are earning as much as what tunedog makes out ,then where is the cost difference between Jetstar and Qantas says blow.n.gasket


Allow me to enlighten you.The cost difference is you 655+page EBA.
1.QF need over 40% more crews to operate there A330 than JQ.When the QF A330 went from the SH award to the LH award there was a 40% increase required in crew numbers to satisfy the LH award efficiencies!!!!
2.No load planners done by crew[not that hard].QF have 210 people in load planning.
3.All flap settings avail for takeoff as per airbus FCOM.This allows better flex and thus money saving[QF only use flap 2,not efficient on long R/W]

I cud go on but not enough time.The money figures for the A330 are close to the mark [$220-260]You shud not be afraid of a bit of hard work.I fly over 900 stick [not credit]every year and manage 15 days at home every month.This will get better with the new A/c and increased frequency to current ports.This is the norm with most overseas carriers.Blank lines ETC are something only you guys have!!!
Unless you and you companions break out of the mindset that there is only one way to operate IE QF or nothing,you will all have plenty of time off:ok:

Fatguyinalittlecoat
1st Nov 2009, 09:29
Jetbest. How does it go? Better to be thought a fool...............
Something like that.

2.No load planners done by crew[not that hard].QF have 210 people in load planning.3.All flap settings avail for takeoff as per airbus FCOM.This allows better flex and thus money saving[QF only use flap 2,not efficient on long R/W]What has that got to do with the pilots contract?


Wow. I'm speachless.

Tankengine
2nd Nov 2009, 01:40
Jetbest, the % numbers you are quoting are BS!:ugh:
So all QF Pilots do <500hrs a year? - crap!

You really think working more for less money is a good thing for you?:confused:
"It's the 3rd divorce that will really screw you!":eek:

Tempo
2nd Nov 2009, 02:31
Ahh JetBest,

Unless you and you companions break out of the mindset that there is only one way to operate IE QF or nothing,you will all have plenty of time off

That's a bold statement to make.

These new aircraft you speak of....are they the 330's and 787's(maybe....if the thing ever actually gets built) that will eventually be crewed by JQ Asia and JQ NZ?????

Unless the JQ Australia pilots breakout of the mindset that there is only one way to operate i.e. JQ OZ or nothing, we will all have plenty of time off.

Get it..

adam210
2nd Nov 2009, 03:50
touchť!.....

galdian
2nd Nov 2009, 08:01
Getting back to the question of $$$ between pussy and porn a friend recently commented that, yes pussy get paid less BUT have a confirmed 22 or so days off per year more than porn.
Yes pussy go to work on a 5/2/5/4 sequence and are rostered 900-950 hours per year but the pattern allows for recovery and (allegedly) pussy techcrew sickleave is very low; no idea of porn sickleave.

As always depends on your needs/desires/drives at the time but appears pussy ARE paid less but have more time off and a more predictable schedule therefore maybe more stable homelife?? - lifestyle Vs $$$, every individual will view the equation differently.

And to the best of my knowledge (IMHO) pussy have not yet assigned crews to the new base of...AD...and then told them to pack their bags and go to...PHE (or similar.) ;)

Mind you - who knoes what's ever going on in the back office!

Cheers all
galdian

EXEK1996
2nd Nov 2009, 09:28
5/2/5/4 has been canned by the CEO!

galdian
2nd Nov 2009, 11:39
discussed and debated but no change in policy to best of humble knowledge.

more than happy to be PROVED wrong, talking to a few guys they're still turning up to fly the 5/2/5/4 roster..

EXEK1996
2nd Nov 2009, 22:05
From what I was told if you join on the MEL base you used to get it but if you chance seats and/or chance base or you are a new hire you lose it or dont get it. Apparently its a loophole in the contract. The only ones who still have it are those that are originally MEL based have not changed base or seat and joined before a certain date earlier this year. Told this by some angry Tiger drivers.

No Idea Either
3rd Nov 2009, 02:29
Hey Cactus.

You leave VB out of this one please. But for the record, no Danish butter, just Belgian, OK.

MrSheffield
3rd Nov 2009, 04:37
Apparently its a loophole in the contract

wrong. its actually not in the contract, but was given on 'goodwill' to the pilots from day one. However, step in 'The Madam', and now its been abolished for anyone who joins, and if you are on it, and change base, you will lose it. But watch this space, AFAP / new EBA may see this change.

Seems Tiger Management have no idea how to run an airline in Australia, they are copying tactics and ploys set by their mothership in Singapore but fail to realise that Australians are a completely different race and they must adapt to stay alive. 2 Flights ex Melbourne cancelled yesterday due lack of cabin crew. again. Havn't learn their lessons from about 12 months ago.

hongkongfooey
3rd Nov 2009, 08:30
As I said, if you worked your butt off including quite a few days off, then you could earn up to that amount.

According to Beeries figures, a 2009 330 Captain could earn 216,500 if he did 1000 hrs ( an average of 95hrs/month for 10.5 months ), where does the other 43,500 come from ? 6% bonus is just over 10k so still looking for another 33K, anyone ? Bueller ?

Mr. Hat
3rd Nov 2009, 09:42
But watch this space, AFAP / new EBA may see this change.

Will be interesting to see how it will compare to vb jq.

flying-spike
3rd Nov 2009, 10:40
You mean you eat it too?

Jet Jockey
4th Nov 2009, 23:23
Hong Kong fooey. I can confirm most J* 330 skippers earn between 230k-280 that is regular drivers including allowances. What you can't read in their eba is the shit woeful rostering software they have and an inexperinced crewing devision with an umlimited budget to patch up what the rostering does not. With the latest Eba and increased days off. Most pilots get single day standbys rostered which are useless because most trips are at least 4 days. Crewing are always chasing pilots to do extra trips, nearly always including a day off. These are by mutual agreement. Most pilots take the day off payments. Most trips are 20hrs stick. You talk to the average driver there they can easily pickup a few days off payments a month which greatly boosts the pay packet. Additionally they are famous for giving people holidays and sometimes forced leave them asking them to fly for weeks at a time all on big $ day off payments. Most drivers are happy with the coin but are unhappy with the amateur hour everywhere else. Flight attendants totally difference scenario. Shit money and flogged to death.

hongkongfooey
6th Nov 2009, 02:43
Sorry to sound like a broken record Jet, but the fact remains ( if the base figures and O/T figure printed previously are correct ) if they flew 25hrs a month O/T every month including their leave, you still can not get close to 260K let alone 280K.

Widebody Captain 2009, base $170,500
O/T $170,500/787 = $217/hr
25hrs O/T per month over 11 months = 217x25x11 = $60000 ( of course this is assuming dispensation to fly 1075 hrs in a year :confused: )
still can only get 230,500 ? maybe if you add in super and bonuses etc etc ?

Checkie 170,500 + 20% check allowance = $204,600 plus O/T ( lets assume he only does 1000hrs ) $260 ( O/T rate ) x 250 hrs = $65000
Ok, now we are getting close $270K for a checkie that does 1000hrs/year.

Maybe I need to use an LCC calculator ?

Jetstar pilots are paid quite well, so why the need to BS about how much they get :rolleyes:

Shot Nancy
6th Nov 2009, 03:05
Dear hongkongfooey,

I think Jet Jockey's reference to:
Most pilots take the day off payments and
easily pickup a few days off payments a month which greatly boosts the pay packet
My emphasis. Is key.
Sitting around and the phone rings. Fly to DRW and position straight back. Fly up in the evening and back on the next morning = two days of day off payment. Several thousand dollars just for one duty period.
Now flying whilst on leave may give you a day off payment for every duty day that month! I will let you work that one out.
Sometimes the detail is in the fine print.

Cheers.

Muff Hunter
6th Nov 2009, 08:42
hongkong

you have not added the retention bonus (6%) and the profit share bonus (this yr $0, last year around $15-20k)

along with day off payments (anywhere b/w 10-30k)

you then see the true package

Watchdog
6th Nov 2009, 10:34
Great to see that a better EBA was negotiated on the widebody fleet than the initial miserly '10% above narrow body rate for that duty on the widebody' (words to that effect).

From my days as a porn-star I recall that the call out pay was very lucrative. On one occasion I operated on a day off SYD - HBA and deadheaded home for a sweet one G(less tax :( )....home in time for lunch! I can see that it would be easy to add 20K p.a. to the group certificate if such is still on offer.

KABOY
6th Nov 2009, 23:25
Sitting around and the phone rings. Fly to DRW and position straight back. Fly up in the evening and back on the next morning = two days of day off payment. Several thousand dollars just for one duty period.
Now flying whilst on leave may give you a day off payment for every duty day that month! I will let you work that one out.
Sometimes the detail is in the fine print.

Can we keep this pay in perspective! I know QF Link Dash 8 pilots that will earn $170K for working on days off and holidays but this is not long term sustainable. By doing these things you are removing employment opportunities for your colleagues.

Keep it real, if pilots from QF etc were to do this they would dwarf a Jetstar salary.

Bank managers will not loan to you on what you received, they will loan to you on what your salary is. The Air China boys will always receive a bigger loan than the Jetstar guys.

P.S And did I mention the other day I was entitled to a taxi, but I took the cash instead. That increased my year salary by another 50 Bucks!!!!!! Now I just need to do this 20 times and it is worth a grand.:ugh:

hongkongfooey
7th Nov 2009, 03:24
Ok, fair enough guys, then working on max everything, as an A320 F/O I earn 2,325,800HKD ( currently 7.1/AUD ) = 327,577AUD/annum, not taking into account the fact that tax is 1/2 of Oz.....

That is for an A320 F/O

Yep, apples to oranges but thats the way this thread is running, max pay :ok:

Outtahere
7th Nov 2009, 05:39
Exactly Kaboy, and as you & I both know, the Ca boys are not in need need of loans anymore. Mortgages are for those who've never left Australia. Only those who aren't getting paid enough feel the need to justify their pay (Not the Ka/ cx guys).

The 170K is currently being paid for Dhc8 checkees at Surveillance Australia. Good on them for getting a good market rate. Cheers

Mr. Hat
7th Nov 2009, 07:24
The 170K is currently being paid for Dhc8 checkees at Surveillance Australia. Good on them for getting a good market rate. Cheers

Thats the way to do it. During the boom they creamed it. Others signed whatever they could get their hands on.

blow.n.gasket
7th Nov 2009, 22:53
Jetbest:
Allow me to enlighten you.The cost difference is you(sic) 655+page EBA.

Funny thing is most of the Qantas Contract you heap so much derision upon is very similar to the jetstar contract.
Where most of the difference occurs is in scheduling matters and the descriptive nature there with.
Therefore since the contracts are very similar in most areas, the JetStar contract must be crap too, excepting of course for your rostering agreements !