Italian AF

[Suit]

So,

The Italian Air Force has ordered 4 Boeing 767TK's with an option on 2 more. They are 3 point tanker transports with an option on a flying boom and have a freighter door and reinforced floor. First is due for delivery in 2004. Flown and operated by the Italian Air Force with Alitalia providing 2nd line, heavy and bay maintenance.

Doesn't this make our FSTA seem a little silly? 9 core aircraft, no freight door, no strengthened floor, owned by a contractor and not even in sight yet.

The Italian Air Force also flies fully equipped and configured C-130J's, complete with full defensive aids suite, equipped for in flight refuelling and with all those lovely little extras such as a fully automated cargo handling system and cargo winches. Oh, and they also have the probe fitted and have underwing tanks.

Meanwhile the good ole RAF J struggles along without a Defensive aids suite, has to buy winches and a cargo handling system seperatley, has no automated cargo handling system, no underwing tanks etc etc etc etc.

Are the Italians just very good, or are we just very bad?

Suit

[Dragonspet]

The 767 tanker while only in the research and development phase currently, does show promise and will eventually replace the KC-135 tanker by 2040. Having had the opportunity to visit the Boeing facility in Wichita Kansas, and looking at the projections for this program regarding Maintenance / Modification requirements I must say that I am excited about the aircraft and look forward to the learning experience.

As for the Italians, signing the partnership agreement was a shrewd political gambit not only strengthening their military capabilities but increasing and securing jobs at Alenia and Aeronavali due to the labor agreement, ensuring Italian workforce will perform all modifications for all international sales of the KC-767.

On July 3 2001 Boeing, BAE along with Strategic Support Management are soliciting bids from the private sector to convert ex-British Airways 767s into tankers for the RAF. To meet the need for 10 tankers as a result of the VC-10s being decommissioned. This was an article in the July 2 edition of Flight International page 40.

[BEagle]

Suit - we agree on this!! And the 767TTs for the IAF cost rather less than the money Bliar squandered on the pathetic Mandeldome........

Personally I think it's our Italian mates have got it right - or maybe they just made the Americans an offer they couldn't refuse....

Germany - getting A310MRTT
Italy - getting B767TT
Japan - hotly tipped to get B767TT

UK - waiting for some mercenary or other to come up with a vague notion of providing AAR in the future. With luck that might mean used ex-BA 767-300s in 2007; if we're really unlucky it could be wholly unsuitable A330Ks!

[sangiovese]

OK I'm not too hot on this topic but have I missed something:

4 + 2 options brand new 767K (with defensive aids suite , 3 hoses and boom) Alitalia and Alenia serviced = £700m

Therefore x7 = 28 + 14 ac = £4.9 billion

10 + 20 (you can borrow them maybe) old 767's (future problems similar to VC10 for fatigue etc?)without the new gucci low drag winglets(which I would imagine will reduce wingtip vortices to make AAR easier) but we'll service them for you programme = £13 billion (was £8 bilion but went up somehow, please note national audit office) and in 25 yrs we give them back.

Now since 3 -5 tankers are already deployed. That leaves er 5-7 of the ten on the line daily.... Who in hell is running this contract?

Now £13 - 4.9 = £8.1 billion. I recognise in service life costs over 25 yrs will surmount to quite a lot, but £8.1 billion! How do the airline majors do it? You can't tell me they manage to make that much on flat-beds in club-class. This is an utter waste of my tax!

Now did anybody speak to ILFC or GECAS for instance. Or have either the RAF or MOD PE gone mad. Or is this a part of the Qinetiq IPO possibly.....

Glad I left. This is mad, not owning and controlling your own fleet. The airlines lease ac and have them more or less guaranteed for when needed for the summer/winter schedule. Or is the MOD planning it's future wars in advance.

And don't tell me money is the problem. The government could use a 30 yr bond, especially with the low interest rates - see today's FT for BA's idea.

Beagle and Suit please tell....