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surfside6
27th Oct 2009, 21:10
Qantas passengers exposed to toxic air, alleges book
By Business Editor Edmund Tadros
news.com.au
October 28, 2009 12:00am
A new unauthorised history of Qantas outlines allegations the airline continued to operate a plane despite the airline knowing it was leaking oil / Supplied
Qantas accused of safety lapses in new book
Allegations that crew, passengers exposed to toxic air
Qantas frequent flyers may be alarmed by book
Find out more: The Men Who Killed Qantas
QANTAS allowed a Boeing B747 plane to continue operating for nine months even though it was leaking oil, an unauthorised history of the airline claims.

During this time, a flight engineer was overcome by toxic fumes believed to have been caused by the oil leak.

Repeated inspections failed to find the cause of the problem and the oil was continually topped-up but passengers were never told of the possible toxic air problem, the book alleges.

Engine oil leaks are believed to directly contribute to toxic fumes being pumped into cabin air on older aircraft, the book alleges.


The allegations detailed in the book reveal that between July 2007 and July 2008 there were 31 reports by Qantas crew members concerned they had been exposed to toxic fumes while working on various planes.

The Men Who Killed Qantas states that when asked about the reports, Qantas (qan.ASX:Quote,News) said that "fewer than five claims were submitted by employees" during the 13-month period.


Written by investigative journalist Matthew Benns, the book outlines safety lapses that have dogged Qantas in recent years, including the 2008 incident where an exploding oxygen tank blew a gaping hole in the side of a Qantas jet.

The book also provides details about how a 2006 audit on maintenance carried out in Singapore found the quality of maintenance checks were "heading in a negative direction".

"The book is an alarm bell for the airline," Mr Benns told news.com.au.

"People within Qantas themselves have come to me with their concerns about future of the airline.


"I have spoken to current and former Qantas staff members so it's the full history of Qantas right from the word go and its the version you won't read on their website.

"It has cut 1750 jobs in the last year, paid its former CEO (Geoff Dixon) an almost $11 million golden parachute and sent maintenance of its jets overseas.

"It's not a book about the death of the Qantas the airline but the death of an iconic Australian brand and its reputation for safety around the world.

Qantas hits back

The airline said that its commitment to safety remained at the core of everything it did.

It denied that one of its Boeing B747 was kept in operation despite leaking oil.

"Mr Benns asked about a particular B747 aircraft and we confirmed that oil usage in the aircraft’s APU (auxiliary power unit) in the prior months was always within manufacturer limits," Qantas spokesman Simon Rushton said.

Asked if a flight engineer was overcome by toxic fumes, the airline said there was "no evidence to suggest that cabin air quality is an issue in any of our aircraft types."

"Qantas operates cabin air systems in accordance with manufacturers’ normal operating procedures and complies with all CASA (Civil Aviation Safety Authority) directives regarding air quality across our fleet," Mr Rushton said.

He said that "air quality incidents" were "extremely rare" in Qantas aircraft and maintained that staff had made "fewer than five claims" relating to toxic fumes from July 2007 to July 2008.

"These generally involved small claims for costs associated with doctor's visits and days off work," Mr Rushton said.

He added that the airline used only "reputable overseas providers for some heavy maintenance work".

QFinsider
27th Oct 2009, 22:57
Around 35,000 copies will be snapped up....:E (wonder if the board is able to read these days?)

We have been lucky to date and no amount of spin changes that. The direction the company has taken is readily comparable to the encroachment of finance/commercial into the launching of Shuttle missions. Have a read of "The Challenger Launch Decision"...

Whether it is a hospital, a space mission or an airline, accountants should be kept well away from operational areas. There is nothing on the qantas board except "money men". Their collective lack of knowledge allowed the executive "managers" (again very light operational experience) to go down the path where the safety and "brand" is levered for all it is worth whilst cutting away at the operational layers that provided the insulation. All the time they profited personally and hoped it never happened on their watch...

Maybe all shareholders ought have a read..

ampclamp
27th Oct 2009, 23:14
all employees and holders will get a free copy :E hehe.

Quill Shaft
28th Oct 2009, 05:52
Just downloaded and read the first chapter free online.

Rushing out the door now to buy the book.

A PPruner's dream.

Look forward to may of the events in the book being debated here!!

Here is the link:

http://www.randomhouse.com.au/editor/documents/themenwhokilledqantas_extract.pdf

Dropt McGutz
28th Oct 2009, 06:20
Will be interesting to see which Newslink branches at the airports stock it.

Shlonghaul
28th Oct 2009, 07:44
Chapter 16 -- Annus Horribilis ................. Something to do with Darth? :E

Obie
28th Oct 2009, 07:52
What a load of nonsense! Is it April 1? I don't think so!
Independent Landing System?...
some one wanna tell me what that is?

Hoofharted
28th Oct 2009, 08:14
What a lot of nonsense?

Because the ILS is not named correctly in this book does that diminish in any way the findings of the ATSB or the report on this incident/accident?

I knew it wouldn't take long for some QF types to start deriding this book, after all, your the best in the universe aren't you? You really gotta wonder just how far some of you people can get your heads up your own arse.:ugh:

Ngineer
28th Oct 2009, 08:26
The airline said that its commitment to safety remained at the core of everything it did.


Unfortunately the company's idea of a safe airline is no LTI's. The DMM/Supervisor that is forcing you to sign off a dodgy is probably the same one that is on your back about doing some of the countless rediculous eq training requirements. (environmental awareness, competition laws, etc).

Obie
28th Oct 2009, 09:05
Hoof has said:

"Because the ILS is not named correctly in this book does that diminish in any way the findings of the ATSB or the report on this incident/accident?"

Do you realise what you have actually said!!??

I didn't think so!

ampclamp
28th Oct 2009, 09:36
hold the diatribe. you'd think a book slagging an airline would be able to get its own house in order. glass houses and all. its a glaring error in proof reading.
I dont think the reader was defending qantas and saying how good they were.Most here just want to slag them off. so maybe just hold fire a moment.

Dropt McGutz
28th Oct 2009, 10:04
Hoofharted, Obie isn't a QF pilot.

Obie
28th Oct 2009, 10:08
Look, we all know that this prang was a complete stuff up!
They stuffed up the approach, the landing and, especially, the evacuation!
But this book is a stuff up too!

Hoofharted
28th Oct 2009, 11:34
uhhmmmmmm yep, I do realise what I have just "asked" and as you don't appear to, I will ask the question again.

"Because the ILS is not named correctly in this book does that diminish in any way the findings of the ATSB or the report on this incident/accident?"

It's really quite simple. "Instrument Landing System", "Independent Landing System", "Indisputably Long Skidmarks", it doesn't matter, the fact is the ATSB report is still a valid one. Get it? :ugh::ugh:

snoop doggy dog
28th Oct 2009, 11:59
A managers all round the world are slashing and burning to line their own pockets :(.

Safety is the name of the game :ok: All these options to save wear and tear (and in turn ca$h) on the aircraft are there for when the conditions are right and the guys up the pointie end are up for it.

All days are different and all days require different considerations. We do idle-reverse landings most day, some days land with less than full flap, use low or no auto-brake instead. It's our call and if the conditions are right. :)

It's good to read stuff like this to sober ones thoughts.

Front Pit
28th Oct 2009, 12:05
Geez who farted? Ok who dropped their guts? This thread is beginning to stink! I'm going to clear my sinus and read the book whilst overlooking the Fragrant Harbour ;)

stubby jumbo
29th Oct 2009, 00:12
.......'ho hum.

If the rest of the book is a riveting as the first chapter then it will be a good door stop or cure for insomnia on my next FRA trip. All the stuff about QF 1 BKK has been done to death. Nothing new here!

As for the other chapters?????

I have some chapter headings that the "investigative journo" has missed.

QF69: My PA and me.
QF108:Lies,deceit and more lies
QF777 Divide and Conquer ........the empire
QF96:Management #101-Qantas style
QF78: The Art of Bullying( apologies to Sun Tzu )
QF89:The adventures of Chicken Little part 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,
QF56: Blue vs Red Team. Red vs Gold team.Red vs Red team.
QF999:APA-the Golden Goose that got away-doh !

The author dedicates the book to staff ( very nice-thanks) but take a tip form me buddy.

This ain't half of it!:ouch:

OverRun
29th Oct 2009, 02:34
My local ABC shop in Australia has got them in already (less the one I've just bought). Online, Amazon UK are quoting "This title has not yet been released" and the local agent, Random House Australia, are saying 2 November release.

I rather thought that William Heinemann, the publishers, had a reputation as a serious publisher. Not the sort to publish books without a sound background to them. The book seems very properly (and widely) referenced.

Annus Horribilis? - that's this year :)

quim
29th Oct 2009, 03:22
I thought that was Jetstar?

Transition Layer
29th Oct 2009, 04:02
Yep, who needs to write a book, it only needs a cover...just put this bloke on the front:
http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2008/07/18/geoffdixon_wideweb__470x329,0.jpg

and on the back cover:

http://www1.pictures.gi.zimbio.com/State+Funeral+Nancy+Bird+Walton+Takes+Place+QES8AJdF-GWl.jpg

Too easy!

noip
29th Oct 2009, 08:11
I also obtained a copy.

An initial skim through the pages was, to me, utterly disappointing - the title and the contents seem to come from two different books. I hope on a second look that I change my mind, but I doubt it.

The round filing cabinet is looking a good destination for it.

N

rammel
29th Oct 2009, 09:10
Just bought it and read the first chapter. Just going by the costings in the book it will take approx 25-30 years of the cost savings from not using reverse thrust to pay for the cost of repairing OJH. So no cost savings whatsoever, just more money wasted, and this is only the first chapter.

noip
29th Oct 2009, 09:32
Rammel,

Just a slight correction to forstall any mis-representation .. at no stage did Qantas ever have a policy of not using reverse thrust ...... idle reverse, yes. It is my belief that the concentrating on this aspect was a little over-done.


N

rammel
29th Oct 2009, 09:47
Noip,

Yes, sorry about that. The book doesn't say that they never use it. It may have been over done a bit, but it did highlight the fact that the procedure was adopted as a cost saving, without it seems too much due diligence done.

SkyScanner
29th Oct 2009, 10:22
Book is disappointing - lacks a killer blow...

lowerlobe
29th Oct 2009, 21:39
at no stage did Qantas ever have a policy of not using reverse thrust ...... idle reverse, yes.
Noip....isn't that playing with semantics?

SkyScanner....I think if you were expecting a killer blow or some startling revelation that is the death knell of any particular individual or the discovery of "the smoking gun" then you are missing the point of the book....

Rather from what I have read it is more about an exposé of some sad and expensive decisions and their impact on an Australian icon....

KRUSTY 34
29th Oct 2009, 23:33
Noip.

Notwithstanding the fact that the Captain, in reversing the decision to go-around at such a critical stage, and in a manner that removed the rest of the crew from the loop (still amazes me), the final nail so to speak was the non application of full reverse. The question of course is why?

Irrespective of what may be written in the ops manual, the reason the Crew of QF1 did not select Full reverse, is because when the chips were down and the sh!t hit the fan, that aspect of operating the A/C had effectively been trained out of them! Human nature 101. Something that the been counters and much of QF management had absolutely no idea about.:=

noip
30th Oct 2009, 00:10
Lowerlobe.
No, it's not playing with semantics. Not in the least. There is a huge difference between landing with idle forward thust set, and idle reverse. The very act of moving your hand forward and engaging the reverse thrust levers, for one thing.

Krusty,

Yes, I pretty well agree with you - the only question I have in my mind is that I don't think they selected ANY reverse thrust. When I read the report, I had the impression they became target fixated, thought "shit, the brakes don't work" and then spent all their time tromping on them and forgot to engage the reverse thrust. I'm saying this from memory, so my aging brain cells may have changed the plot a bit, but I think that's about it.

So from that viewpoint, I disagree with the report that came to the conclusion they had had the reverse thrust trained out of them. I find it difficult to believe a highly experienced pilot (I am talking generalities here) with many years of applying reverse thrust can have it trained out of him in just a few months.

But it is all history and no amount of thinking about it will fix the outcome. Like most things, there was no "one" cause of this unfortunate event. We can but learn from other's misfortune and try our best to not step in the same cow-paddy.

:)

N

PS .... I'm still sorely disappointed with the book. The round filing cabinet is looking better all the time - though I might keep it for the howlers.

stubby jumbo
30th Oct 2009, 00:56
...lets not forget that there has been a woman involved in this "murder" as well aka:

THE MEN & WOMAN THAT KILLED QANTAS

The Dame was all over it. Who could forget the now infamous quote from her ,....." if the shareholders don't vote this APA up they are DUMB" !:hmm:

And the photo of Dixon and her hugging each other after the deal was announced:yuk:

Now that is the sort of content-you need to trawl through for a good read. Its all there. Scott Rochfort from SMH was the only journo with the B--LLS to hammer QF at the time. He should of got a Walkely award for his bravery.:D

I could also name :mad::mad::mad: a number of other women in management who have spun their web and trapped many an unsuspecting victim...... But alas I know what Black Widows do after they mate.:\

KRUSTY 34
30th Oct 2009, 01:10
Thanks noip, I guess we'll have to agree to dissagree on some points.

As I said, the decision to continue with the landing after the go-around was commenced, was manifestly wrong. I'd be surprised if the QF ops manual didn't have some guidelines on that. I know mine does! But it happened. Experienced people are still capable of poor decisions, and there for the grace of God go us all! However, if the F/O had been told to land rather than having the Captain physically placing his hands on the thrust levers, then The F/O may very well have ignored this order and continued with the correct course of action. Who knows?

With regard to your assertion that someone of the Captain's standing could not have a previously routine procedure trained out of them, well I simply don't buy that also. QF had adopted this procedure for some years before it caught up with them. Plenty of time for it to sink in. Also the Capt was trained on the 744 exclusively using this method of operation.

The Captain may have been a highly respected and experienced Training Captain (previously on the 767 if my info is correct), but he is still human, and when faced with a "sudden" crisis, in this case the need for full reverse, Human beings usually revert to what they are most familiar with.

So, I actually think the Author has got this right. Ultimately a decision made years previously to introduce an SOP, by people without a clue to the dynamics of human factors in the cockpit. IMHO, a bad decision made in the heat of the moment followed by a flawed SOP!:sad:

noip
30th Oct 2009, 04:11
Krusty, we agree on about 99.9% of the stuff - my views are but a small wrinkle as far as differences go.

back to the book ........


:)

lowerlobe
30th Oct 2009, 04:40
Noip....

I'm afraid I too will have to agree to disagree with you on your definition of semantics in regard to reverse thrust...

To say there was a policy of only using idle reverse thrust in general circumstances is to say that there was a policy against using full reverse thrust....therefore it is disingenuous to say that there was at no time a policy against using reverse thrust.....and as I said a matter of semantics.

noip
30th Oct 2009, 07:24
LL

I don't understand why this has become such an issue - initially I was trying to stop the inevitable impression that the aircraft were using idle forward thrust on the landing roll. This is a HUGE difference to even having idle reverse. At least you slow down with idle reverse, and you at have to make the effort to raise the reverse thrust levers.

Oh, and don't get the impression I support a blanket idle reverse policy - I'm not trying to defend what happened, just trying to stop some journo accusing the airline of not even engaging reverse thrust.

As for me - Keep it simple is my byline. I'm old and grumpy and HATE the way the lawyers have gotten into everything so that the powers that be find the need to micro-manage every conceivable eventuality. If we aren't careful, the pre-flight briefing will end up with the S/O opening the Ops Manual at page 1 and being asked to start reading.

The FOPAM was much thinner.

sigh

N

Now ... where's that red?


And the book is still disappointing....

lowerlobe
30th Oct 2009, 15:41
noip....

I was not commenting on the BKK incident,QF or any airline in particular...

I was commenting on your phraseology....

QFinsider
30th Oct 2009, 19:55
Whilst this book may lack the killer punch(and I haven't read it yet), do not forget that until this point there had been very little comment about Q that attempted to turn the heat up on the attempts to run the company into the ground.

This is the first book to be published that at least attempts to focus some light on a dark corner of our industry. It happens all over the place in every industry. The lack of corporate governance allowed it to occur. We watched Enron, had the likes of Dunlap at Email and the idiot at HP. Funnily enough successive governments watched it happen overseas and did nothing and it nearly happened here..

Let's hope there are a few more books, Project Suzie was very real, both with Kerry and his son later on. Of course the silver donut was all over it. Boston Consulting proably too!

captaintunedog777
30th Oct 2009, 22:55
Load of bloody crap

Find some disgruntled employees Write a book slagging an airline with an enviable saefty record. Reminds of the clown on the channel 7 show titled Scarebus trying to sell his book by scaremongering

Gingerbread
30th Oct 2009, 23:31
Book or no Book; had the APA Takeover Bid for Qantas gone through, Australia, Qantas' Shareholders and Employees, not to mention the travelling public, would all have a real mess on their hands.

Thank god it didn't.

If nothing else, The Men Who Killed Qantas will help focus necesary attention on why QAN's Corporate Governance failed to protect: long run economic interest, national interest and many thousands of Australian Jobs.

A national vote of thanks needs to go to Matthew Benns for having the courage to do what he can to make sure this sorry episode isn't simply brushed under the carpet and forgotten.

History can not be allowed to repeat itself.

MrSydney
30th Oct 2009, 23:52
I saw it in Borders in Parramatta yesterday but bought something else instead. Migh wait for the local Library to get it.

lowerlobe
31st Oct 2009, 00:34
captaintunedog777....

Let's look at one of the chapters....

How about the one involving price fixing with cargo ....

Can you explain to me what part of that is a load of bloody crap.....

OlAME
1st Nov 2009, 03:38
Read it with great expectaions , outcome ,totally boring , still the author will make a quid . Now I wonder what the reall story is ?

HotDog
1st Nov 2009, 10:12
As an ex QF employee in the sixties, based in Singapore; two very serious incidents occurred that I can not find any reference to. The first one involving a 707 night landing and go around on 02 at Paya Lebar Singapore, resulted in a rescue team of QF engineers patching up a severely damaged airframe due to a hard touch down on the nose gear. The aircraft was ferried back eventually to Sydney unpressurized for permanent repairs. The second was a jet upset over India en route to Singapore where a captain followed a toppling AH, disengaged the AP and and severely stressed the fuselage in an attempt to rectify a false attitude indication. I haven't read the book, nor am I inclined to do so but I'm certain these incidents remain unrecorded by the authors who may not have been borne yet in 1965.

QF94
1st Nov 2009, 11:16
.....one involving a 707 night landing and go around on 02 at Paya Lebar Singapore, resulted in a rescue team of QF engineers patching up a severely damaged airframe due to a hard touch down on the nose gear. The aircraft was ferried back eventually to Sydney unpressurized for permanent repairs..... I haven't read the book, nor am I inclined to do so but I'm certain these incidents remain unrecorded by the authors who may not have been borne yet in 1965.

The aircraft you talk about was VH-EBK (707-138B) on 23 December 1964. This was caused by an error of judgement by both pilots at the point of initial touchdown which caused the aircraft to bounce, incorrect technique was used by the captain in the attempts to reland the aircraft, which placed it in a nose-down attitude causing the nosewheel to strike the runway before the main wheels. Nil injuries or fatalities, but I'm sure a damaged pride nonetheless.

One doesn't have to be born at a time an event takes place, so long as the event is recorded and it is known where to find such information years down the track. How many of us are old enough to remember WW1 or WW2?

BrissySparkyCoit
1st Nov 2009, 15:04
Hoofharted said...
I knew it wouldn't take long for some QF types to start deriding this book, after all, your the best in the universe aren't you? You really gotta wonder just how far some of you people can get your heads up your own arse

Get off you high horse buddy, some of us "QF types" actually applaud the launch of this book. I'd suggest that it is YOU who needs to remove ones head from their anus.:ok:

Richard Kranium
3rd Nov 2009, 00:30
Well last time I looked Qantas was still flying, infact one flew over my head today...so what is the problem, all you Q types are getting paid, thats all that matters, I would suggest most of the guys accused of killing Q were really involved in up to their armpits in killing Ansett.:sad:

Shlonghaul
3rd Nov 2009, 02:23
Whoops another thread drift alert !!!

RK wrote........

I would suggest most of the guys accused of killing Q were really involved in up to their armpits in killing Ansett.

And nothing to do with mis-management by Ansett executives, and those who couldn't even keep tabs on aircraft servicing schedules, and the bastardization of the airline by Air New Zealand? :rolleyes:

QF94
3rd Nov 2009, 04:19
Whoops another thread drift alert !!!

RK wrote........


Quote:
I would suggest most of the guys accused of killing Q were really involved in up to their armpits in killing Ansett.
And nothing to do with mis-management by Ansett executives, and those who couldn't even keep tabs on aircraft servicing schedules, and the bastardization of the airline by Air New Zealand? :rolleyes:


All of the above are true, but there was one John Vincent of QF engineering who went to Ansett before its demise, and then slinked his way back to QF after the demise of AN. Just some food for thought.

teresa green
3rd Nov 2009, 05:14
When carbon brakes appeared on the scene, QF was one of the first to start stuffing around with reverse thrust, and started to include in the training their new flight procedures, all in the name of saving a buck. Us old bastards were appalled, and at least 6 very senior QF Captains told them to stick it up their kyber pass, leaving no doubt that they would be ignoring the practice. I witnessed a very heated meeting at the AIPA over this very issue.QFs luck held out once again over the BKK "incident" as QF like to call it, I don't blame the crew, I blame the training, and mostly I blame the fact that until QF get some REAL technical people up there in "Wally World" (as was always the practice in the "good ol days") instead of bean counters, hangers on, and the CEOs good looking, but backward nephew who takes care of everything beginning with R eg: rubber bands etc. nothing is going to change. The old ways are boring to you young blokes but they WORKED, pilots and engineers had a big say in the everyday running of the airline, bean counters job was to keep the joint solvent, and somehow it worked. TAA and Ansett were,until taken over by the beancounters, excellent airlines in their own right, another era, yes, different costings, yes, but nothing changes the fact we are dealing in Aircraft here not jam tin lables, and a bloke who does not know a APU from a camels arse should stick to beancounting, and pilots and engineers should be heavily involved in the running (and costing) of the technical side of the airline, in theory this should produce a solvent and safe airline (and God forbid a happy one). rant over.

QFinsider
3rd Nov 2009, 08:33
TG,

Have a read of Normalisation of Deviance..The challenger launch decision.
It is a scary read as commerical pressures weaved their way through every facet of the operation of the STS at NASA.

The result an accident.
Accountants ought be kept away from anything operational. An airliner is not a widget, it carries many people. Look at the board of Qantas and even the "senior management" team, not an operational person amongst them..

Not everything that can be counted counts and not everything that counts, can be counted..Albert Einstein

skybed
3rd Nov 2009, 20:52
funny that in the Qf teminals domesticially you cant get the book in the stores as the store owners have been told they cant display them.in the bookstore near the Virgin checkin (tulla) they have build a large dsiplay of the man that killed qantas:}

stubby jumbo
3rd Nov 2009, 21:37
"funny that in the Qf teminals domesticially you cant get the book in the stores "


This is not funny and definitely not surprising. The QF Concessions team would of "muscled" the outlets.

DISPLAY ZE BOOK AND YOU ARE OUTZIE ON YOUR ARZIE

Free Speech...... you have to love it:hmm:

packrat
5th Nov 2009, 04:20
The book is basically a number of newspaper reports cobbled together.
It debunks a few myths and alludes to management screw ups and poor behaviour but little else.
The mployees hold the place together.Nothing new.
Qantas will never be the airline it once was.
Sir hudson Fysh must be turning in his grave

GlobalMaster
5th Nov 2009, 08:45
The word from CAPA is:
Qantas (http://www.centreforaviation.com/profiles/airlines/qantas) operates arguably the most successful organically developed dual brand airline model in the world. Its Jetstar (http://www.centreforaviation.com/profiles/airlines/jetstar-airways) low cost subsidiary has effectively insulated it from domestic LCC competition, while allowing it to complement the full service airline on marginal international routes and provide a platform for expansion within Asia.


But Qantas itself is an airline with little future – as an international full service airline at the end of the line in a world where it is helpless to compete with the market and pricing power of efficient Middle East and Asian intermediate airlines able to pick the eyes out of its European and Asian services.

Bet they haven't flow Dragon Air

the rim
5th Nov 2009, 10:40
well i said i would not put pen to paper again ....but ...packrat you are correct i have just flicked thru this book,and its just that a collection of stories put together in book form ...nice read with a lot of truth and quite funny in some sections and a few names from the past....if you look hard you will see my handles name ...but you will have to been around in the 70's in servicing to remember it ....a hint his first name was bob....thats all

wayne_krr
6th Nov 2009, 00:05
Mods, pardon my paranoia, just wondering why my post was removed.

Ka.Boom
7th Nov 2009, 22:14
Of the modern era John Menadue was most likely the best Qantas CEO.
He doesnt get a mention in this book

OlAME
9th Nov 2009, 01:02
Memadue , almost bankrupted the company , loved the glory , but spent like a drunken sailor ( or ie that pilot ) .

ampclamp
10th Nov 2009, 07:18
Go teresa green, both barrels and right on target!

teresa green
11th Nov 2009, 02:20
Yates, was a good Boss, as was Capt. Bert Richie, yes guys a CAPTAIN ran the show and ran it well, also Capt. Frank Ball, who ran TAA. This was the era the Boss told the beancounters what was required to run a safe airline, and can well recall the time when asked to come in to do a compass swing (remember those, you ol bastards out there) and witnessed a beancounter trying to explain to Capt Ball, even at the engineers request, a spar part had not been ordered for a F27. It was pure theatre, old Ball left up and down on the same spot, rage spouting from every opening, and the beancounter was left in no doubt when a engineer ordered a part it was to be delivered, so different now, hey guys? It seems they have the donkey by the tail, instead of the technical side of the airline, requesting funds to run the airline in a safe, and cost effective way, the beancounters are telling the very same people they must save money and cut corners, and hope for the same outcome!:ugh::ugh:a :mad: disgrace.

OlAME
11th Nov 2009, 02:25
tg , keep dreaming or wake up its 2009

B772
6th Jan 2010, 01:14
I understand stocks are now very low. If anyone still wants a copy I suggest you move fast.

OhSpareMe
6th Jan 2010, 01:19
When it inevitably ends up in the $2 bin I might shell out for it. In the meantime it belongs on a spike in the back toilet.

RedTBar
6th Jan 2010, 04:14
Obviously some here don't like to read about what has happened in the past.

I was given the book for Christmas and think it's a very good read without the usual journalistic sensationalism.
When it inevitably ends up in the $2 bin I might shell out for it.
I really enjoy those who criticize a book without having read it:yuk:

RedTBar
6th Jan 2010, 05:48
The old Ostrich syndrome of sticking your head in the sand...love it.

"Charter boat......what charter boat...How could you not see a charter boat":E

OhSpareMe
6th Jan 2010, 05:59
I perused it in the shop (Perth) just after it came out. Was tempted to buy it, but felt it wasn't worth the dough. I had a flick through most chapters and checked out the photos but felt it was mostly sensationalism coupled with some very sketchy analysis. I mean what the hell has that poor girl who tangled with the actor in the dunny got to do with the management of QANTAS? Was she one of the so called 'men' who killed QANTAS? So why was it necessary to have a photo of her in the book with an explanation? I also did read the first chapter on the QF1 and thought that was crappy writing as well.

If it was any good we would have received it as a Christmas present from the company. They like handing out glossy books.

Like I said - I would probably shell out $2 for it, but not $39.

ditch handle
6th Jan 2010, 06:08
I mean what the hell has that poor girl who tangled with the actor in the dunny got to do with the management of QANTAS?

I can think of a reason.

She was another example of QF management incompetence in that she [allegedly] caused havoc when flying internationally out of the AKL base so was "managed out of the business" [the term used I believe].

Only to reappear a short time later re-employed by Qantas in Australia as a short haul casual flight attendant. This done despite management being fully aware of her record of [allegedly] questionable behaviour.

BTW the book is available airside at SIT in the bookshop at the top of the arrival level, escalators.

argusmoon
6th Jan 2010, 08:41
QF has been dead for years.
What you have now is just a rotting carcass being picked over by a leprechaun with ambition and a Chairman in his twilight.
The official burial service will be held sometime in 2014

rmcdonal
6th Jan 2010, 09:09
The first 1/3rd of the book just goes through and tells of how many QANTAS aircraft have crashed in its history. It would be a fair topic to bring up, however I don’t see the relevance of aircraft being shot down in WW2, or brand new A model types in the 20s 40s crashing in the Australian outback, yes they crashed, but everyone crashed back then. Of the actual bits about the ‘Men who killed QANTAS’ there is very little. They state that some things they would have liked to have written were not allowed due fear of being sued.
Over all I was not that impressed with the book, I figure that if they had any sort of insider knowledge then they could have brought all the walls down with little effort.
Bit of a Michael Moore effort but in book form. :hmm::suspect:

stubby jumbo
6th Jan 2010, 10:43
Agree-its not a bad read BUT its missing massive chunks as I have stated in a previous post.

One book that is aviation based that I just finished is the story of Sir Charles Kingsford Smith by Peter Fitzsimons- a top read.

Smithy was a larrakin / legend and a top pilot. How he survived some of the flights in the "Old Bus" is beyond me.

I asked the CSM how come we don't have... "Welcome to Sydney's Kingsford Smith Airport"....as part of the welcome PA anymore.

Reply=ditched some years back -by order of the Black Widow:hmm:

Its sad to also read about the pioneers of Q.A.N.T.A.S. ( in this book)- they too were hero's with a true Aussie spirit.

Fast Forward to 2010 ...........:(

Keg
6th Jan 2010, 12:09
I asked the CSM how come we don't have... "Welcome to Sydney's Kingsford Smith Airport"....as part of the welcome PA anymore.

Wow. Hadn't noticed that. I normally make an effort to mention the specific name of the airport as part of my descent PA. It's normally prefaced by the town and then the name- if it's got one. Sydney's Kingsford Smith, Singapore's Changi, Bangkok's Suvarnabhumi (even had a local teach me how to say it properly), Hong Kong's chep lap kok, Melbourne's Tullamarine, etc.

I shouldn't be surprised though. When the office whallahs are focusing on the small stuff like that (and sending out memos to crew reminding them not to wear any Chrissie gear) then you can be confident that there is a whole bunch of big stuff that they're missing. :(

LeadSled
6th Jan 2010, 14:17
Folks,
I thought it was a book typical of a journalist, not a real "author", and certainly not of the calibre of Fitz. Somebody has already said it reads like a string of newspaper stories strung together.

His "revealing of the true QANTAS crash history", with the implication that it was hidden, was just plain silly. His "secret crash history revealed", revealed nothing other than he has copied from the appendices of the official (and excellent) QANTAS histories by John Gunn.

Indeed, the DH 86 crash at Longreach was arguably not a "QANTAS" crash, it was an Imperial Airways crew on a delivery flight.

On the safety angle, if you do a bit of homework, the only claim made is that QF have never had a fatal jet accident.

I am glad I was given it as a Christmas present, I would have been pxxxxx off if I had spent those $$$ myself.

Tootle pip!!

RedTBar
6th Jan 2010, 20:17
I notice none here have mentioned the chapter about the cargo price fixing debacle and the lack of loyalty shown.

It might have been better if the author had written the book in a check list format so that many of those posting here could find it easier to read.:E

It's obviously escaped some here that if you are going to write a book about the decline in an airline then you should really show some back ground information in the first few chapters.Hence the stories about the first aircraft,it's work and history during the war and so on.

Personally,I found the fact that he talked about the BKK accident in the first chapter before giving a historical back ground to the airline interesting.It looks like that was probably a little too subtle for some here.

Flight Detent
7th Jan 2010, 10:57
Yes RedTBar...

When I started reading thru the initial chapters I was also looking out for some sort of confirmation of the credibility of the author (as I always do).

All was going well right up to the Bangkok accident explanation where he mentioned the 747 intercepting the ILS, you know, the "Independent Landing System".....
Unfortunately, that simple line blew away any cred for me, it simply indicated the author didn't know, and his technical QA guy missed it!

I read the rest anyway...interesting...though he did seem to get bogged-down in some areas!

Cheers...FD :)

Sue Ridgepipe
7th Jan 2010, 12:59
Wow. Hadn't noticed that. I normally make an effort to mention the specific name of the airport as part of my descent PA. It's normally prefaced by the town and then the name- if it's got one. Sydney's Kingsford Smith, Singapore's Changi, Bangkok's Suvarnabhumi (even had a local teach me how to say it properly), Hong Kong's chep lap kok, Melbourne's Tullamarine, etc

Maybe you should have got a local to teach you how to say Chek Lap Kok.:E

OhSpareMe
7th Jan 2010, 21:18
Like so many anti-QANTAS types that frequent this fourm if you are in the business of prejudicial reinforcement then this book could be considered a good read.

Timed perfectly to take advantage of Christmas, it was guaranteed sales when purchased as gifts for family members that work for QANTAS. I suspect that will prop up the sales figures. The author probably knew he could get a few thousand sales from that alone.

I can safely predict that it isn't going to be receiving any accolades for hard-hitting investigative journalism.

RedTBar
7th Jan 2010, 23:12
As I said some people like to stick their head in the sand and pretend that nothing is happening or at least they didn't see it happen.

You cannot objectively analyze any area of society if you have not read or acknowledge the mistakes the participants have made in the past including your own organisation.

To do otherwise is simply to be delusional or at best disingenuous.
Timed perfectly to take advantage of Christmas
This is a perfect example of the pot calling the kettle black.

Can Oh Spare me tell us that any business including Qantas would not make the most of a time such as Christmas?

To mention just one chapter,I would like Oh Spare me to explain the cargo price fixing rort.

Keg
7th Jan 2010, 23:18
Maybe you should have got a local to teach you how to say Chek Lap Kok.

I'm a pilot rather than a typist so perhaps the odd typo can be forgiven! :ok:

RedT, it's possible to damn something as mostly full of crap even though there may be 1 or 2 truthful and/or good bits in it.

RedTBar
7th Jan 2010, 23:25
RedT, it's possible to damn something as mostly full of crap even though there may be 1 or 2 truthful and/or good bits in it.
I would say the opposite and that there are probably only 1 or 2 mundane bits while the rest are very interesting Keg.

Ngineer
8th Jan 2010, 05:48
I think that QF should have bought a copy for each of its staff for Christmas. I bet it would have been the first book given to it's staff that didnt go straight in the Sulo.

an3_bolt
8th Jan 2010, 09:31
I'm confused now:

Isn't it actually HKIA which happens to be located at CLK on Lantau?:ok:

aay yahhh - chee sin gweilo

Keg
8th Jan 2010, 11:29
Just as well I don't fly there anymore then! :}

teresa green
8th Jan 2010, 12:00
For Christmas I got three copies, yes three, my relatives so kindly thinking of my interests. My summary at the present time is there are a few mistakes (and what was that flight attendant who joined the mile high with some film star or whatever) doing in it? But basically was fairly on the money. The only thing that bothered me was the general public could easily get the impression that QF just lumbers from on disaster to another, without any normal periods of safe flying. The first chapter really shows the appalling lack of training re cabon brakes, flaps 25 and reverse thrust. No wonder many senior Capts told them to stick up it up their ar$e (and believe me they did) previous to the "incident," shame it did not go down the ranks. It truly bothers a old pilot like me that the ability to think for themselves has been taken away, and their working lives revolve around a manual. If ever there was a reason for a very senior pilot and engineer being consultants to the board than this is it, they would never passed this sort of stupidity in the first place.

OhSpareMe
8th Jan 2010, 20:02
Dear RedTBar,

Why do I need to explain the "cargo price fixing rort"? Anyone with more than a passing interest in things airlines would know that QANTAS - along with a number of other carriers - was prosecuted for that. It was widely reported in the media, and indeed acknowledged by the company in the Annual Report.

Do you think that they are going to do it again? Hardly. So perhaps they have learnt their lesson. And I bet they didn't need to read "The Men who killed QANTAS' to adjust their behaviour.

I am rather certain that my head remains clear of the sand. QANTAS will still be here after OhSpareMe and RedTBar are long gone. QANTAS will still be doing a good job - not a perfect job - but a good one.

BTW are you Tech Crew?

As for:

This is a perfect example of the pot calling the kettle black.

I think you need a better idiom. I don't think I am hypocritical when I say that the release of the book was strategically timed, just that it was opportunistic. With 35000 employees it was probably guaranteed a few thousand in the Christmas stockings.

On the number of book sales (provided by Teresa Green) I rest my case.

For Christmas I got three copies, yes three, my relatives so kindly thinking of my interests



For TeresaGreen - I acknowledge your opinion but when I was on the -400 I don't recall too many Captains complaining about using Flap 25. In fact I think I heard of - yes heard of - one complaining directly to the Chief Pilot. Up until QF1 (and for sometime after) the Flap 25/Idle Reverse was used, in my opinion, in the majority of landings including during cyclic renewals. It remains a valid landing technique to be used in the appropriate circumstances. The greatest criticism of that procedure was in that it was not properly risk analysed before being implemented.

I don't wish to drag this thread back to over analysing QF1 as over the years that has been done to death. But I wish to say that the major cause of that accident was not due to the crew intention of using the Flap25/Idle Reverse landing technique. That is, of course, my own humble opinion, having digested the ATSB report and spoken with the acutal crew members involved.

Also I am not sure having a pilot consulting to the board would have made any difference in this case as the implementation and awareness of the Flap25/Idle Reverse technique never made it up the hierachy past Flight Ops. In any case when required (or if requested) the Board has specialist advice on flying aircraft from the Chief Pilot.

The Mr Fixit
9th Jan 2010, 00:15
You would think that a book with such a title would've blow the lid off QF's management and it's decrepit behaviour full stop, it didn't, as stated earlier it was just a collection of 'stories' put together from say newspaper article research, in depth research didn't seem to play apart.
Also you would think that the Engineers' dispute, the only real one under John Howard's tyrannical rule besides the wharfies would've rated more a mention, openly agreed by QF execs as costing them over 150 million just to fight it and countless millions maybe even a billion in forward bookings and reputation. That dispute exposed the despisement QF management had for even it's most trusted and valued employees, their complete and utter disregard for anyone but themselves and their unadulturated greed in continuing to feed unabated at the trough.
The simple fact that that dispute and it's victory by the engineers broke the glass ceiling that had reduced ALL employees at QF to nothing more than 3% PA should have been a few chapters on it's own, once again a little in depth research wouldv'e provided fair dinkum reading.

RedTBar
9th Jan 2010, 04:24
I had no idea that this was going to be so formal but :oh:
Dear Oh Spare Me,Why do I need to explain the "cargo price fixing rort"?
Because it is one example of poor and as it turned out illegal management decisions in the book which you have rubbished without reading it.By the way stealing a few glances at it in a book shop does not give you the ability to be able to give an accurate synopsis.
Anyone with more than a passing interest in things airlines would know that QANTAS - along with a number of other carriers - was prosecuted for that.
To you it might have been or more to the point wish it might have been but to anyone else it has not.In fact it is still an ongoing saga so I can understand why you and others want it to be pushed under the carpet.
Do you think that they are going to do it again? Hardly. So perhaps they have learnt their lesson. And I bet they didn't need to read "The Men who killed QANTAS' to adjust their behaviour.
How do you know what present and future mangers will do especially when no manager in Australia was punished for their part in this costly mess?
The book is not meant to act as a sort of penance for the persons responsible but for everyone else who would like to know what happened.
QANTAS will still be here after OhSpareMe and RedTBar are long gone
You obviously have a short term memory and have not read the chapter about the failed and ill conceived (for Australians and employees) takeover bid.
As I saidYou cannot objectively analyze any area of society if you have not read or acknowledge the mistakes the participants have made in the past including your own organisation.

To do otherwise is simply to be delusional or at best disingenuous.

OhSpareMe
9th Jan 2010, 04:45
Continue to maintain your rage mate. You are doing a great job.:D

RedTBar
9th Jan 2010, 04:49
Dear of Spare me,
No rage here at all mate,in fact the complete opposite.
Especially after reading some posts including yours.

What The
9th Jan 2010, 05:06
To further understand the greed that exists within the management levels of Qantas I wonder who has noticed the following category slip into the staff travel pages.


41 Executive Trip
This priority is for executive level employees(with grade 5 and above) and eligible Group A beneficiaries travelling on Qantas flights.


What does this mean?

Every single Executive (grade 5 and above) and there are approximately 1000 of them, will be uplifted before any other staff member except Long Service Trips with priority 40Y. This is a significant change to the staff travel benefits of every employee within the Qantas Group and should be seen for what it is.

This priority also applies to domestic staff travel and therefore the date of joining formula has been thrown out of the window. You will sit there all day whilst the execs and there families show up and bump you off. Remember there are 1000 of them.

Feel engaged now people?

Time for a revolution. This stinks and must be fought by all loyal and long serving Qantas employees. Advise your colleagues and representative organisations.

What The
10th Jan 2010, 12:40
Given that the GREED thread has been deleted by the mods, let's pump this one up the tree.

Is PPrune moderated by airline management?

skybed
12th Jan 2010, 09:46
certain issues don,t last long by certain moderators. I hope the resident union blokes/ladies pick this (QF execs staff travel) one up and start doing something about it. :ugh:

Ngineer
13th Jan 2010, 09:30
I am very sure that the watering down of staff travel privileges (due to the Jetstar model), combined with the removal of salary sacrificing of portable computers will develope into an EBA bargaining point for unions in upcoming negotiations. These 2 factors alone easliy equate to a loss of several thousand dollars P/A for many staff members.

Jed Clampett
13th Jan 2010, 09:41
But what these computer screen jockeys with university degrees don't realise is that they may save a few dollars here and there and feel good about their success and how they beat down those pesky pilot conditions but those of us with control over the fuel ordering can blow thousands of dollars out the the tailpipe with the stroke of a pen. Every $10 they charge or dock us equates to an extra 1000kg of gas in the tanks. Now that's what I call ENGAGEMENT!!!

BogeyBoy
13th Jan 2010, 11:10
Jed - I could only hazard a guess as to the target of your "computer screen jockeys with university degrees" stereotype - but lets not tar all of us that fill that decription with the same brush. There's many such people throughout the company that also play a vital role in the operation. I assure you that we too must fight for our conditions and far too regularly can only shake our heads in disbelief at our mgmt's latest "direction".

RedTBar
13th Jan 2010, 19:45
The problem that the employees have is that every section of the airline thinks that they run it.
I have seen time and again one section working against each other or at least not helping during a dispute.
Each section is only interested in themselves and the company not only knows it but is happy to help that along.
Divide and conquer.
What would be the best for us all would be for a single airline employees union however for the obvious self interest,political and egotistical reasons that will never happen.

Pegasus747
13th Jan 2010, 22:40
Well in fact we did have a single Bargaining Unit for EBA 1 going back to the early 90's following the SEP.

The ACTU under senior Industrial Officer Les Ayres led the negotiations for wage outcome at e very senior level in Qantas. We all got the same wage outcomes and each union dealt with its own details in a series of appendices which were handed up in the AIRC by the ACTU and the relevant Union.

there was a real strength in that "Single Bargaining Unit" and the Company hated the ramifications. SO what the Company did was got a union to break away (TWU actually) and do a separate deal which broke the "single bargaining Unit". In return the TWU got a good deal in the first instance for their members and then as the unit lost grip, the rest of the unions fell like the proverbial dominos.

We now all bargain at different times, are held to ransom by the Company and have no "joint" or collective strength anymore

The only group from memory that were not part of that arrangement were AIPA as they were not affiliated with the ACTU. Ian Woods the previous AIPA president affiliated with the ACTU upon his teams election a couple of years ago.

Here endeth the history lesson

RedTBar
14th Jan 2010, 01:43
Here endeth the history lesson
Thanks pegasus747 and yes most of us have seen the Untouchables and it was a good movie but a more concise version of cohesive collective bargaining as I said is this.
however for the obvious self interest,political and egotistical reasons that will never happen.

my oleo is extended
27th Jan 2010, 11:34
Nice one Jed,

but those of us with control over the fuel ordering can blow thousands of dollars out the the tailpipe with the stroke of a pen. Every $10 they charge or dock us equates to an extra 1000kg of gas in the tanks. Now that's what I call ENGAGEMENT!!!

Finally somebody just as disturbed as me !! Mate, spot on. Let them play their games, these money grabbing grubs and pen pushing overpaid gimps. Bring it on. I too, am more than happy to play my part in reversing the revenue climb by costing these chumps a few thousand dollars everytime they bend me over a barrell and deliver another thrust that diminishes my career earning capacity!
Nothing better than the satisfaction of creating a 'level playing field'. Parasites.

teresa green
28th Jan 2010, 00:57
Are they going to make it into a movie? The possibilities are endless, John Travolta, Humpfrey B. Bear, and who gets to play Marg? Cannot wait!:E

my oleo is extended
28th Jan 2010, 08:53
Teresa green,
Are they going to make it into a movie? The possibilities are endless, John Travolta, Humpfrey B. Bear, and who gets to play Marg? Cannot wait!http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/evil.gif
When Darth and Marg fronted the media to announce the deal was done, and they started grinning, hugging and virtually dry humping I thought that a porno movie was about to be played out !!