Milosevic: Joke or Justice?

[Red Snow]

I must admit to having very mixed feelings about seeing our old chum in the Hague slammer.

So, he's a conniving, devious, dangerous despot who deserves all that's coming to him.

But what is actually coming to him? Just how much will he suffer if convicted?

And is this all to justify the billions of US tax dollars spent on bombing Serbia, and the billions more to be spent on policing the place for the next 5/10/20 years?? Wouldn't the money being spent on Slob be of more use somewhere else?

[mysteryman]

Well it seems very political
it's only about the money their
going to be given in aid
and the US has the purse strings
they say jump they say how high

MM

[Nil nos tremefacit]

It's the principal that is important. Milosevic was the CinC of the Yugoslavian Armed Forces at the time of some of the worst atrocities in modern Europe. The buck stops with Milosevic and hopefully, if found guilty, he will spend the rest of his life in prison.

The fact is that it is a potential deterrent to any other dictator/mass murderer if he knows that he could be prosecuted for his actions. Milosevic and Hitler were peas from the same pod, the only difference is the numbers, but once a dictator starts on the road of mass murder then, to the families that have already suffered, numbers are irrelevant.

The psyche of people like Milosevic is based on a self-centred view of the world. Milosevic now claims, without any sense of irony, to have been kidnapped. He cannot see that his position is better than those kidnapped, tortured, raped and murdered by his men. I have met young men who have been tortured and imprisoned by Milosevic's men for no other reason than they were of Albanian descent (they were citizens of his country at the time).

Milosevic also denies the charges levelled against him. He stood in front of crowds proclaiming himself President of Yugoslavia. Since his accession to power 750 000 of his citizens have died, millions have been displaced, his economy lies in ruins, towns have been destroyed and historic and religious sites have been descrated. His unified country is split into Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia (itself subdivided), Macedonia, Serbia/Montenegro (about to split), Kosovo (semi-autonomous) and there is still ongoing war. Milosevic seems to misunderstand the situation. If the blame for all of that does not lie with the President, where does it lie? He has done nothing practical to stop the deterioration into anarchy. He's not the only one who deserves punishment, but starting at the top is a good idea.

[only1leftmate!]

An interesting point Red

but I think you are wrong in suspecting that Milo's trial is a propaganda stunt for the benefit of the American public.

If it were, would we not also have witnessed Saddam's showtrial by now?

Do you feel that there are no inherrant dangers in allowing absolute dictatorship to continue in Europe? As for policing the country, look again at current developments in FRY and see if you can't draw any parallels between what is happening there and to some events in modern history.

[Gash Handlin]

Only1leftmate,

That's a bit naive don't you think?

I'm pretty certain the prosecution case for Saddam is written and filed away for the day they manage to get their hands on him, but until the time comes for someone to stand up to him and hand him in a'la Milosevic there's not much can be done about him.

And I certainly wouldn't want to see one Brit serviceman put in danger to try and snatch Saddam for a trial that we all know the outcome of just so Bush(snr), Major et al can say gotcha.

[Paul Wesson]

Correct, there is indeed a campaign to get Saddam and charge him.

The website www.indict.org (http://www.indict.org) is home to a bunch of human rights lawyers who are gathering evidence that would stick in this country as well as at The Hague (using UK subjects as human shields etc is probably something that could be tried at the Old Bailey).

Ironically, given the thread, I met up with a member of Indict when I was a supervisor in the Kosovo Municipal Elections before Milosevic was toppled (super drinkex, fantastic experience - I would recommend election supervision/monitoring to anyone).

[pana]

Well, I am really surprised by the attention you gave to ex yugoslav president.
But are you sure that it is all the truth. Actually I think that it is very good for FRY to get him on trial, but I am not sure if it's good for western politians because he couldn't do that all only by himself. FRY has always been at the very problematic place considering geopolitical interests and as it wasn't established only by itself, it was't destroyed only by itself. If he get a really fair trial lot of underground political games will come up.

[only1leftmate!]

Gash

My point is this. Milo has been handed over by his own countrymen to an internationally recognised court. He was not kidnapped and will be afforded the right to defend himself. I believe he will also have the right of appeal. This does not bear the trademarks of a showtrial. His prosecution is important for us in Europe as we have a fine heritage of absolute dictators that we wish to bring to an end. Perhaps if prosecutions of Nazis at the end of WWII had been more completely funded and more of the 'hands on' perpetrators had been caught then the message might have been a little clearer (no criticism of the work done though). As for Saddam, if we want him in chokey we have to do it legally.

[Red Snow]

Gents
Thanks for the replies. Especially NNT, very eloquently put, sir. I always agreed with your sentiments, perhaps not the means.

But..my 'mixed' feelings have changed somewhat after seeing the b@stard on TV tonight. Good point about Nuremburg....but how did we let the Japanese off the hook so easily? I can really understand how those Forgotten Army veterans feel today.

[pana]

I carefully read NNT's opinion and I 've found some false facts which may affect other's opinions: at that time (you were speaking about 1991) Milosevic didn't proclaime himself the president of Yugoslavia , he was elected at regular elections (first multypartial after WWII) for president of Serbia. I must remind you that almost in the same time all republics of ex-Yugoslavia conducted elections and in Croatia won Tudjman, regular nationalist, in B&H Izetbegovic (also nationalist), and only Milosevic proclaimed himself as a socialist. So, cards were shared and party begun. But, here is not such a problem with facts. It is problem of your thinking. You see everything "black and white", I call it CNN image. Serbs(Milosevic) are bad boys and everybody else are good boys. Are you sure that it is only and one truth. For example, did you know that massacre at marketplace in Sarajevo wasn't commited by Serbs(source: UN monitor officer).Do I have to remind you that immidiately after that NATO started to bomb serb forces (and what about Racak,Kosovo). Of course, Serbs did they best to insure NATO that they are doing right thing.And it wasn't dictature like Hitler's and Pinoche's dictatures. But it almost bicame after NATO aggresion ("Angel of mercy"-to whom?!) but what else could be expected. At the end, my conclusion is that he should be tried, but first in his own country and all of that mess with NATO and Milosevic reminds me of situation where one thief with stalen purse in his hand screaming "get the thief, get the thief" showing in opposite direction, to another thief.

[Nil nos tremefacit]

pana

I don't think anyone really wants to blame the Serbs for everything, nor to identify all Serbs with Milosevic. That would be simplistic. Milosevic, however, is to blame for much of the problem by supporting Arkan and Karadjic and other Serb 'leaders' throughout the FYR. Tudjman and Izetbegovic certainly exacerbated problems by pandering to their own extremists, but the number of massacres of Serbs is considerably less than that of the other national groups (it obviously doesn't make it right).

Milosevic did influence the internal politics of Serbia and other countries and, like dictators before him, suppressed opposition and apparently had many of his opponents eliminated. You point out that Milosevic was elected, but so was Hitler under a system of proportional representation. Both left their countries in a reduced state with vast numbers of their own citizens dead.

Whether Milosevic called himself a nationalist or socialist is almost irrelevant, the effect was the same. Milosevic sought to maintain the Serbian hegemony in FYR. In that he has failed, at a phenomenal cost to the Serb people and to the other peoples of that region. The problem is still ongoing in Makedonia and the Albanian parts of Serbia proper.

It will be good if Milosevic, as the boss, were to shoulder the blame, since it will allow those Serbians who were less willing participants in the civil war to be exonerated. It would be nice, also, if some of the bandits and terrorists of the other nationalities were also made culpable for their actions. Peace and reconciliation, which are not common features of Balkan history, will be easier to achieve if all parties feel that the bad men on all sides are getting their just desserts.

[pana]

NNT,
main problem with Den Haag tribunal is that Milosevic is already sentenced before beginning of trial. I don't think that it is prevailing principle in modern justice. As you said: he supported Karadjic and other Serb's leaders. Support of Karadjic has to be proved.As you remember, FRY established total blocade of Republic Srpska,1995.After that the only one man who supported Karadjic was present prime minister of Serbia, Djindjic, he was there during NATO bombing in Bosnia.As I see he has completely different treatment now.
More about Den Haag:why USA did not accept UN suggestion to convert that court to court for war crimes for all wars at the planet(globalisation, isn't it).
You mentioned Macedonia in same way as Kosovo. I can't find similarity between Kosovo and Macedonia.You don't want to say that Milosevic is also guilty for that, or for Southern Serbia, I hope. It is possible that there is similarity from other belligerent side, Albanians and their project of Great Albania in cooperation with very powerfull patrons especially if you see recent evenys in Macedonia, but it is topic for some other discussion.And I don't think that there was serbian hegemony in ex YU so you can say that he tried to achieve it in last 13 years. As I know, some people say the same things for UK (England versus others).
But even we discuss this topic for years, Milosevic is in Den Haag and he will go on trial. I think it will be very interesting to hear what he has to say.