Flying Instructor Rates

[parkbrake]

Hey,
I've just completed my Instructor Rating and want to know what to expect from an employer. I've heard that some schools exploit there instructors. Can anyone tell me where I would find out the minimum wages / rates for flying instructors and the additional loadings assosciated with twin training / NVFR / IFR etc Also - Are you paid an annual salary or are you paid per flight?

[eocvictim]

Yep my first year I braught in $24k :}

[tail wheel]

Go work it out yourself: Pilots (General Aviation) Award 1988 (http://www.afap.org.au/files/RROI2261PX/Pilots%20GA%20AFAP.pdf)

[maverick22]

Just remember you will be starting out as a junior Gr 3, which means constant supervision which can be a bit of a hassle for some companies and so they will pay peanuts until you reach senior gr3 or gr2.

A previous company I worked for paid a weekly retainer plus an hourly rate for each flying hour. This was quite good as there was potential to earn a decent pay however as instructing goes, the weather always played a major part so some weeks the pay was very dismal:(

The next job I got was full time, so no worrying about having a bad week. Bonuses were paid for multi engine charter and IF training. Having said this though, the pay was still very low.

Had an absolute ball instructing though, and would do it all over again as it finally paid off in the end.

PS I worked for a company once who wanted me to be a contractor to them. This meant getting an ABN, paying my own tax, super etc etc. DO NOT DO THIS! I told them where to go after a couple of weeks.:=

[YPJT]

PS I worked for a company once who wanted me to be a contractor to them
And the reason they do this is so they don't have to pay you holiday pay, sick pay, superannuation, workers comp etc etc. Anyone who does that to an instructor should be strung out and all the details forwarded to the ATO.:mad:

[huntsman]

ummmmmm

you just spent how much for an Instructor Rating?
and NOW you wonder what pay you may get? :rolleyes:

[OCTA]

Huntsman my thoughts exactly... what is with you people these days! Do you ask any questions before forking out the $$$ If not come and see me and I'll have some of your cash!!!!! :eek:

[Aerozepplin]

:eek: that $103.80 sure isn't going to the instructor, they'd get a flake of that to put on their coffee I'd wager.

[maverick22]

Well as a general idea, I am currently finishing my CPL and am paying $103.80 per hour for the instructor

That is nowhere near what the instructor would get paid:= Just remember the flying school has to take their cut.

[eocvictim]

I started out on $32/hour then worked my way up to $38 WOoHoooo! :} The instructor charge rate was $90 irrespective of grade. No pay for theory.

[Jabawocky]

Just a little perspective on what any business, be it flying school, engineering accounting etc has to charge out for the employee's hours. Multiply your hourly rate before tax by around 2.5 to 2.7 and then add GST.

So if you get $38/hr before tax the school to cover all the overheads, and Tail Wheel will confirm this no doubt, will have to be charging you out at $95/hr plus GST.

Now this all depends on the industry, some may be 2.0 times, but any where there is heavy ongoing training, be it on the job learning discovering or trial and error, or formalised training programs, they all cost heaps in time and money. Add to that Super, admin costs, accounting and legals, OH&S, phone power and dunny paper........:)

Now which of you want to run a flying school? I have enough trouble running a good successful engineering business!:uhoh:

What do you think TW?

[tail wheel]

In the present context, there is no such thing as a Sub Contrator Pilot/Instructor. I also do not see how or where "payment per flying hour" is condoned or permitted under the Award or any Australian industrial legislation.

If you are remunerated, directed and tasked, then you are an employee in one form or another.

You may be casual (although I find that difficult to accept, considering the CAR and AOC obligations), in which case your entitlement is Award plus (from memory) around 23% as compensation for loss of sick, annual and long service leave. As a casual employee, you are also entitled to a minimum number of hours "call out" - check the Award.

You may be part time, in which case your entitlement is Award plus pro rate sick, annual and long service leave.

Or you may be full time, in which case your entitlement is Award plus sick, annual and long service leave.

If your salary exceeds $450 per month, you are also entitled to mandatory employer contribution superannuation.

Full time employment is 1,824 hours worked per year. CAO48 restricts flying hours to slightly less than half that total (900 hours per year). In practice, a high utilisation pilot will achieve at best, 750 to 800 flying hours per year. A Grade 3 cost (wages + leave accruals + super + workers compensation + uniforms etc) must be around $45,000 per annum; 700 hours flying = $65 per hour at cost.

For a flying instructor, where the business recovers all costs within an hourly aircraft hire rate, and considering the constraints of CAO48, I would expect the instructor cost within that hourly aircraft hire rate would need to be at least three to four times the instructor's hourly rate of pay, depending on instructor utilisation (i.e. ratio of flying hours to total work hours.)

$100 to $120 per flying hour for a Grade 3 Instructor would be about right?

Please do not come to PPRuNe and whine about being paid less than the Award or working under an employment agreement that is not in accordance with Australian industrial law. You can not contract out of your legal entitlements, your employer is acting unlawfully - and your complaints are :mad: boring! :=

[strim]

As an instructor you should have a complete understanding of the award, how it works, what you are entitled to etc..

You need to teach your students this too. It is important they enter the industry with a knowledge of their rights so they can make informed choices when it comes to employment. Too many fresh CPL's out there willing to work for nothing. Sure there are times when we have to go above and beyond our job description, but not being compensated for hours of work is not on.

I find some students start training under the delusion that they will be a millionaire by 30. The sooner you show them what they are legally entitled to, the sooner they can develop a mature outlook and expectation to future pay and employment.

I can't believe anyone would complete a CPL, let alone a FIR without knowledge of the award.

[Howard Hughes]

in which case your entitlement is Award plus (from memory) around 23% as compensation for loss of sick, annual and long service leave. As a casual employee, you are also entitled to a minimum number of hours "call out" - check the Award.
For casual employees, it is 1/800 of the annual salary per hour, plus 25%, with a minimum payment of two to four hours, depending on the tour of duty.*

As I have just posted on another thread, the award is a minimum (safety net award), not something to aim for!:eek:

* Source: AFAP website GA pilots award dated 30/10/2008.

[Peter Fanelli]

Yep my first year I braught in $24k


I cannot for the life of me imagine why you might have been so poorly remunerated.

[bushy]

There is lots of sound advice and information here. Wisdom, from those who know.
Please everyone try to make sure this spreads far and wide.

[deano65]

My previous flight instructor at a school starting with SFTC told me he was on $25k per year, and employed full time.

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

Well said Tailwheel. I get sick of the "I'm not getting paid enough" brigade AFTER they have AGREED to and ACCEPTED rubbish wages in the first place.
Walk away and look for a decent job!

And although it seems odd to do a course without doing this research first, good on this guy for asking around now and hopefully other newbies are reading this too.

If the employer tells you that you will have to get an ABN and be a "Contractor" then turn around and walk away. A flying instructor acts under the direction of the CFI at all times so it instrucing doesn't fall under the definition. Plus it could leave you with some very unpleasant insurance liabilities if something goes wrong. The only way we will stop these "You are a contractor" types is if no-one will work for them. Tell me I'm dreaming.

They undercut the employers who are doing the right thing because they wriggle out of super, compo etc. And they do it by telling the eager newbie that this is the only way they will ever get a start in the industry.:mad:

[40Deg STH]

Well said CFI.
If looking for a flying school, research and see if there pilots are full time award pilots. If not, go else where. You will also find the quality of training will be higher at a more professional school who treats their instructors as professionals. It will pay off in the long term if you spend a little extra now.
Better still, look for a school who has an instructor or 2 who has seen some variety in the industry and can also mentor the younger instructors.:ok:
My first instructor was an ex AG pilot, Regional pilot and former Cat A (an old qualification). Having said that, I still fly like ****e:O

[tail wheel]

Yes CFI. And I get bored to death in Dunnunda Forum with the repetitious number of posts and questions about "contractors", "rates of pay", "am I underpaid?" etc etc.

I simply can't understand how or why a mature, presumably rational person would decide to become a commercial pilot, fork out zillions of $$'s to a flying school, study CPL and learn to fly for a year or two - and still have no idea what return to expect on his/her investment!!!

A wise old mining company Managing Director once said to me: "A person is judged by the company they keep."

Junior instructors should be aware that if they work for free or below Award there is a 99% chance they are working for a cheap skate operator with less than acceptable standards and reputation.

Aviation is a small industry - by adding a shonky operator to your resume you are probably dooming any application for employment to rejection.

[eocvictim]

I was wraped with getting $24k for a years worth of FREE flying :ok: Better than the $30k i got WORKING in a servo. Although I did find out that for the time I worked at my first job I was and still am (for another year) entitled to $15k in underpaid wages.

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

don't feed the troll

[tio540]

Grade 3 instructor wages can be more easily calculated as exactly half your rent. A Grade 2 instructor gets longer flights between paying the rent. A Grade 1 instructor goes back to flying on one engine, even longer flights, and earning exactly half the rent. :ok:

[parkbrake]

To those of you who have taken the time to reply...Thank you.
However, from reading the posts I feel that some of you have interpreted this the wrong way. I am perfectly aware that the money earned is minimal. I can assure you that I am not so stupid as to start something I knew nothing about. :ugh: But as I am unable at this time to move out of my current location I am unable to look at work other than instructing.

However, what I dont want is to work for 25 bucks an hour when the minimum hourly rate is say 50 bucks an hour? I simply want pointed in the right direction.

What I am also trying to attain is what YOU or your school pays its instructors. Are the majority of you instructors on salaries or paid by the hour? Do you get any perks with the particualr company YOU work for?

[tail wheel]

parkbrake.

HERE (http://www.afap.org.au/files/RROI2261PX/Pilots%20GA%20AFAP.pdf) is a little light reading for you.

All will be revealed! :ok:

[tio540]

Tailwheel

I think he also wants to know what the pay really is, not just what the award says.

There can be a significant difference, like renewals, on call and minimum daily pay rates.

[eocvictim]

Parkbreak, by the sounds of it you're doing instructing as a means to an end with the intent to move onto charter when you can. Now before someone shoots this down, I did it as a means to an end but I did actually want to instruct and do love teaching. I'm not going to assume that you are anything other because I'm sure you've dealt with crappy instructors yourself.

If this is the case, then you need to factor this into your plan. You need to look beyond the hourly rate.

Some better paying, bigger schools look great but they can take more time to get on your feet and get decent hours. They will also limit your progression into charter. Smaller/cheaper schools will often see faster progression and often branch into more charter ops.

Ask the instructors at each school how long its taken them to get on their feet and the number of new students walking through the door. Also ask them a rough timeframe for progression onto charter, multi IFR training and finally greener pastures. The last thing to ask is a rough idea of their hours in the first and 2nd years.

If you're earning a great hourly rate (award) but doing stuff all hours with very slow progression you're in a far worse position than the guy raking in the hours. Remember that hours mean progression. The faster you build your hours the faster you move onto grade 2, 1 and multi IFR. Yeah, ok, its at a lesser pay rate to your peers but what about the guy you did your instructor rating with who's still a grade 3?

The final caution with my advice though; Good hours with a "dodgy" operator are always subject to high scrutiny. So ask around for what people think/say. Unfortunatly rumours are often worth more than facts in this industry.

N.B. I'm not saying do it for nothing or to offer yourself for less but if you have a choice dont just look at the hourly rate.

[inxs]

Makes you want to go and join a union.....AFAP ??? naaaahhh, don't think so, maybe we should start our own union and unionise the whole GA sector, f/instructors especially - mandatory membership guarantees a healthy income but not pay the same membership rates as AFAP naturally (even though I am usually against compulsory union membership but this is one industry that needs it badly !).
Comments welcome please....

[GADRIVR]

"Please do not come to PPRuNe and whine about being paid less than the Award or working under an employment agreement that is not in accordance with Australian industrial law. You can not contract out of your legal entitlements, your employer is acting unlawfully - and your complaints are http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/censored.gif boring! :="
Geez Tailwheel.............what the hell is the site for then???!!!:ugh:
Perhaps YOU need to come out of your sheltered workshop and give helpful, well intentioned and RELEVANT advice for a newbie in the REAL dog eat dog world!
Not the rubbish that your good self and CFI have written above.
Waffle.....absolute mean spirited BORING waffle!!
Back in MY day blah blah blah.....Jesus! How boring is that!
Have a nice day girls!:*

[YPJT]

GADRIVR,
You have been given honest, well intentioned and VERY RELEVANT advice.

Exactly what part of their posts offended you? Perhaps the bits that you yourself are guilty of perpetuating or having been sucked in by?

[aussiefan]

I haven't bothered to ask the question on the forum, I have looked at the award on the AFAP site, while the rates at the end of the awards make sense the rest of it is a bit of a struggle, as awards normally are. It also seems there are a lot of people payed under and over it.
I have heard a lot of people carry on about their pay without actually saying what it is, they don't have to say, but it is of no information.
It would be good to hear I fly xxx aircraft as an xxx and earn roughly xx a year. Not as a bragging exercise but so newbies could actually see.

For the record, I have asked some people and from looking around I know what I can expect to earn and am delighted! More so for complete newbies.

[aussiefan]

Awesome, a lot more income than I expected. Good to have some actual information.

Now to try to verify it.

I am a firm believer in "I saw it on the internet, it must be true" Not to say you are wrong but this should be one source.

[bushy]

If you can't get a full time job you will be VERY short of money.
And the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow is only there in about ten years, for a few.

[Fonz121]

aussiefan,

Grade 2 instructor, $54,000 if that helps.

[Stretch06]

Grade 2 Instructor NVFR = $38,800 (before tax)
Working 80-90hrs duty / fortnight and avg 550hrs flying / year.
Renewals and upgrades paid by company.

Wow, wish I was on Fonz121's salary. Fonz is that SE or ME training?

[world instrucor]

Do you live with parents? Do you eat? does parents still pay your bills? DO you date? Are you celibate? Do you own a car? Can you sleep in back of car? Can you eat at local soup kitchen missions ? Do you have a sugar momma ? then you can expect to earn enough to qualify for all government programs:)

[Skydiveandy]

Full Time

Retainer of just over $40K + a reasonable hourly rate..

Grade 1 Multi IFR

works out to around $50K+ depending on the hours..

Hard Work, loads of politics, wouldn't give it up though..

[M14_P]

I personally charge $40/flying hour GST inc. Only doing it part time (busy with other commitments). I have 3 PPL's on the go at the moment. Just enough to keep out of trouble - these fellas are self funding students too.
If you are after a salary then clearly this won't work for you (contract flying) but it sure does work for me. :)

[A37575]

Just remember you will be starting out as a junior Gr 3, which means constant supervision which can be a bit of a hassle for some companies

The so called constant supervision is a farce. There are countless stories of new instructors hanging on to students for many hours with no check flights conducted by the CFI to ensure the student's progress is being closely monitored. How many times do flying school chief flying instructors actually fly with their junior instructors to check their instructional skills? Who pays for the aircraft time? Too much hassle? Too right.

My understanding of the reason for the formation of the CASA Flight Standards Testing group was that the standards of new instructors was so poor that CASA intervention was warranted. So much for the constant supervision of grade 3 instructors by their own CFI's

[Dangnammit]

As long as you can pay your bills and lend you knowledge to others while filling up the log book. That's my short term goal when I finish my fir.

Pay wise, if it's not enough, then other work as well will have to do.

Will be hard after coming from civil works with good money.

Sacrifice now for the future.....

[havick]

$88/hr + super for single engine piston.. doing average at least 5 hours a day.. minimum 2 hour callout, ie you turn up and flights are cancelled due wx..

more money for single engine turbine, and lots more for multi turbine IFR..

keeps me busy doing as a nice little extra earner on the side of my normal flying gig..

[havick]

WannabeQF..

That's pretty typical casual rates for helicopter instructing..

Most guys that instruct casual tend to be higher hour guys that do it for something on the side from their fulltime gig

[senshi]

I know of a company on the Goldy who pays GR1's $65K (more if they teach ME IFR). $10 less for each grade of instructor.

S

[M14_P]

Looking at what some people here are earning instructing, there is hope for those wanting fulltime work yet! Some impressive numbers if you ask me. I don't know of anyone earning more than NZ$40K / year instructing..