RAAF pilot retention ... any news?

[doublehelix]

Anyone heard anything?

[w_ocker]

Apparently, they cant do it!

(alright, I admit, nor can Army, and the less said about anal naviation the better.) :rolleyes:

[Arm out the window]

What I want to know is, when are they going to roll our flying pay into salary for superannuation purposes?

That rumour keeps cropping up, but nothing happens!

To all the pay and conditions people who I know read PPrune avidly:
"Sometime in the next 6 months would be good!" ;)

[DutchRoll]

(Rolling on the floor laughing)

Speaking as an experienced pilot whom they failed to retain, I truly believe that 'RAAF' and 'pilot retention' are consigned to be mutually exclusive terms for all eternity.

Of course, it would help if those in positions of power started implementing more practical means of retaining expensive & highly motivated specialist personnel, instead of coming up with hair-brained schemes like the PRB, or just saying "we'll train our way out of it" (well to do that you've actually got to get the recruits in the first place don't you?) :mad:

[ 19 July 2001: Message edited by: DutchRoll ]

[Roller Merlin]

Arm Out...

apparently it was going to happen two years ago until they saw the super liabilities blow-out that resulted. The Green Machine objected too. Give the entitlements branch a call and get a sitrep.

[doublehelix]

So, the short answer to my original question is.....

no

[DutchRoll]

Apologies in advance for the length of this post, but I just recently obtained a secret transcript of a conversation between a RAAF Recruitment Officer and a bright young 16 year old who wanted to become a RAAF pilot. Little did the Recruitment Officer know, his rasberry cordial had been spiked with a new truth serum......

Officer: So why do you want to become a pilot, Johnny?

Boy: Well Sir, I just love planes. I always wanted to fly, and I really like the idea of being in the military. I’m really keen to be the best pilot a can be, and to be really professional.

Officer: Ah, good! I see you’ve done extremely well at school, and you’d have a bright future in any professional career with lots of potential. Medicine, Commerce, Law, Engineering. But I think we can get you into the RAAF as a pilot. I understand you have a few questions about this type of career?

Boy: Well, yes I do Sir. I was wondering about the training. I know it will be very hard and very extensive. What sort of qualifications will I get?

Officer: Right, well Johnny, the training you’ll get is absolutely first class. Of course, being a pilot is a very specialised job. You’ll have to maintain the skills you’re taught to a very high level. We will spend a frightening amount of money training you to fly high performance aeroplanes very safely and very effectively. In fact, that’s all we’ll do.

Boy: Wow! That sounds cool because that’s really what I want to do, and it’s all I’ve ever aimed for.

Officer: Naturally, after completing this rigorous and expensive course, we’ll only let you fly for three years or so. Then we’d like you to do something different.

Boy: Different? Like fly a different aeroplane? Cool!

Officer: Well, er, no, not exactly. More likely some staff work, or a project or something.

Boy: Oh! Staff work doesn’t sound very exciting. But a project could be interesting! It would be excellent to get additional training in that sort of area.

Officer: Actually Johnny, we won’t be giving you any additional training. You’ll just have to pick it up as you go along. I’m sure you’ll get by. Besides, everyone else will have managed before you!

Boy: Gosh! Some of those people must have trouble doing a good job! I mean, you couldn’t just go into a job you’ve never done or been trained for and be an expert at it could you?

Officer: Yes you can, Johnny. This is the Air Force. Anyway it’s time to move on. Do you have any other questions?

Boy: Actually Sir, I do. I was just wondering about the life in a real, live, operational squadron. That would be so exciting! Flying every day, serving your country, then going home.

Officer: Yes, it sure is a great life. I mean, the flying is great after you’ve done all your menial chores.

Boy: Menial chores?

Officer: Yes, you know, all your secondary duties. OIC Flying Hours, OIC Social Club, OIC Flying Currency, OIC Fly Swatting and Pest Control, flying paperwork. All that sort of stuff. Once you’ve finished all those, you might even make it home in time for dinner.

Boy: But wouldn’t my job be just to fly aeroplanes? I mean, you spend a lot of money on training me to fly, so wouldn’t it be a bit of a waste of resources making me do stuff which non-specialist personnel could do?

Officer: You’re getting to be a bit of a wise guy aren’t you Johnny? Our job is not to worry about wasting resources. We’re here to fight wars. It’s been done this way since the Wright brothers.

Boy: But that was a very long time ago wasn’t it? I mean, my friend’s Dad is an airline pilot and most of his flying paperwork, currency, etc is computerised. They have these really cool systems that collect it all & store it, and you can access it when you need to. Granted, it might not always work 'in the field', but you could have other ways of doing that on the rare occasion that you go to war, couldn't you? They’re quite advanced! They also make sure that there are other people to do most of the non-flying stuff, because it costs them less to train those people, and so he does more flying, which means they don’t need to spend so much money training pilots, which is hugely expensive. And everyone is happier and more professional too, because they are always doing & practising their primary job!

Officer: Now listen here laddy! Nobody likes a smart-arse, especially in the military! I suggest you forget all that ‘21st century’ and 'airline' crap, and face the fact that we are the Air Force. It’s hard enough keeping those fan-dangled laser-guided thingys they drop off F-111s working properly, let alone computerising stuff. And as for this ‘cost of training’ baloney – I’m a Recruitment Officer, not a bean-counter. Besides, we already have a brand new pilot working on a computerisation project. But I don’t think he’s doing it very well.

Boy: But wasn’t this what I was saying before? He should be flying planes, shouldn’t he?

Officer: Lad, I’ve just about had enough of you. That’s just the way it’s done, OK? Now would you like to know anything else?

Boy: Well, I don’t know. It’s not sounding so good after all. I guess it will make up for it when I go back flying again. I guess if I work really hard to do the best job possible and get promoted, it will help my flying career won’t it?

Officer: Johnny, Johnny, Johnny. Exactly which planet are you living on, lad? Neptune? Pluto? Some other planetary system? After you’ve done all your mind-numbing promotion courses, you’ll be MORE likely to be stuck behind a desk. After all, that’s where we really need you, especially if you’re a ‘high flyer’.

Boy: Pardon me? But I would be a Senior Officer pilot wouldn’t I? Wouldn’t I be leading formations, or passing on my experience to junior pilots and helping to train them?

Officer: Well, maybe in some cases. But not for long! Besides, we really need you to do staff work when you become a Senior Officer, Johnny. I mean, there are a lot of snap-decisions to be made reversing earlier poor snap-decisions which were made as a result of poor snap-decisions made in the process of reversing poor snap-decisions made due to earlier reversed poor snap-decisions. And this can only be accomplished by Senior Officers, Johnny. OIC Distance-to-Run Marker Boards at Air Headquarters is a Squadron Leader position. The last bloke decided to paint them green, but I think they want to paint them blue again. How about that?

Boy: Oh boy! I’m not sure about this job after all! Well, I guess I can give it a go, and if I don’t like it when I get a desk job, I can get out and try something different.

Officer: Johnny, I seriously hope my little boy doesn’t grow up to be as stupid as you are. You’re in for 10 YEARS laddy! 10 years! And that’s AFTER you finish your training! Ha! Did we forget to tell you that? Any other questions, Dumbo?

Boy: Well, maybe the excitement of doing Exercises preparing for the ‘real stuff’ could sway me. I heard they were really cool and really tested your flying abilities. Is that true?

Officer: Ah yes, indeed they are. They will certainly challenge you. They will especially test you because they realistically represent the shambles of modern warfare!

Boy: But hang on, aren’t they planned and organised in advance?

Officer: Only 3 or 4 years in advance, Johnny. This isn’t really enough time for the military to organise something so that it runs smoothly. Don’t you see? It’s the beauty of our system! You swap people around mid-plan, or just after the exercise is finished. That way, we keep making the same mistakes over and over. Reports get buried in filing cabinets and the incoming planners never get to see them. On the off chance that they do, we recommend that they ignore them anyway. This ensures that everyone learns something, even if it is exactly the same thing that was learned last time. Fantastic! Universities and Research Labs should model themselves on us!

Boy: You have to be joking! I mean, the flying itself might be great, but the organisation is a shambles! You need to fundamentally change your personnel management. You need to ensure pilots can continue doing what they do best. You can’t send them to jobs they aren’t interested in! You also need to get into the 21st century! The fact that you're the military isn't an excuse! I mean, I've heard pilots get paid fairly well, but there are so many other areas for management and lifestyle improvement which other organisations have recognised, but you haven’t! No wonder all these pilots are leaving!

Officer: RIGHT!! THAT’S IT!! I’ve had enough of your cheek! Get out of this office! We don’t want your type in today’s Air Force anyway!

[ 19 July 2001: Message edited by: DutchRoll ]

[doublehelix]

Now THAT's funny... :rolleyes:

[Arm out the window]

Nice work, Dutch Roll!

Very accurate.

I wouldn't have believed at the 'Johnny' stage that there could actually be so many costly and seemingly random snaps and counter-snaps because of personalities, but to borrow the immortal words of the Monkees:

"Now I'm a believer!" (sadly)

[ 19 July 2001: Message edited by: Arm out the window ]

[w_ocker]

I dont know whether to laugh or cry! Then again, lets face it, we havent been doing this military aviation thingy for long, have we? Surely we'll sort it out shortly when we get a bit more experience. :(

[melchett]

....so true it's NOT funny! :(

[BEagle]

Boy: So tell me, Sir, is all this O i/c Officer's Mess flower-arranging an inherent part of aviation? Would I do something similar if I was an airline F/O?

Officer: But in the RAAF you serve the nation - not just fly.

Boy: So precisely who would benefit from my floral skills? The RAAF? The PM?? HM the Q???

Officer: Not the point, lad. Now, would you like to borrow my pen?

Boy: Only if you've got the address for QANTAS, Sir!

Officer: NO I HAVEN'T!! But if you find out, do please send me a copy of the application form. Once I flew Vampires and then Maachis - now I'm expected to be a confidence trickster!! Maybe you'll be my F/O one day.........??

Boy: More likely that you would be mine, Sir!

Officer: OUT DAMN YOU!! And never darken my doorstep again!

Boy: No worries, mate!

[DutchRoll]

Just thought I'd bring the subject to the top again! Anyone from Canberra listening? Oh....silly me. Sorry, just a brain snap! :mad:

[ 24 July 2001: Message edited by: DutchRoll ]

[sunny77]

BEagle,
A little birdy from CB told me the aim will be to upgrade the current offer to ex-aircrew to 2yr(min) ROSO on re-sign up, qualify for the $70K (soon to be bigger) immediately and slot into a flying job straight away. This will apply for all three services. I may be sceptical, but it seems a bit too good to go into a flying job WITH the bonus for only 2yr!


Dutch Roll,
I would have found your post funnier if I hadn't had a similar experience and then (with stars in my eyes believing Recruiting officer was joking) joined! Oh well, now that I'm out, I do enjoy going to work, flying (alot), then going home with about 15min TOTAL time paperwork for the day. And to think, all through pilot's course they told me civillian flying was highly unprofessional!! Ba ha ha ha. :D

[Avtrician]

DutchRoll

Canberra Never listens, they only make Noise.
(now if only noise could be made to power aircraft..... Hmm) :eek:

[melchett]

Seems like it used to be that those with ROSO could get shafted with any crap job because the RAAF couldn't lose them, at least not in the short term. Now having a few years ROSO makes someone a more suitable candidate for a good job, (737's perhaps?),than those without because they can't leave in the next xx months...and hence we lose more experienced pilots and it all snowballs. Bah.

And by the way, has anyone seen the RAAF's recruiting webpage? Found a spelling error straight away, the Orion is referred to as a PC3 and it has a stated service ceiling of 28600'. Where did they get that number? The webpage told you nothing factual, just a load of PR stuff about how great the ADF is, as if they were targetting kids in grade 6 who need info for a school project. Off my chest.Bah. That's better. :mad:

[Ex Douglas Driver]

Apparently the RNZAF recruiter forgot to tell me that the 20 year contract that I signed wasn't actually a "contract" but an "understanding of service".

So after 7 years with the mob, when our fanatical PM decides to pull the plug, I get told that I no longer have a job flying, but won't be paid redundancy because "we have no requirement to do so". Technically I can go and work on one of the many committees reviewing the committees.

Off to a foreign air force I go, and very happy about it.

[Ex F111]

Me Too.

Seems like both the RAAF and RNZAF have lost the plot with retention of experience.

Douglas - Which Foreign AF??
:D

[wowie]

This sounds like I am going to have a great time in there.

I've just passed all of the tests for aircrew and I am going down to Tamworth shortly for flight screening. Looks like I might be pushing pens for a living shortly eh

(I found all of this amusing but sadly its all true)

Regards,
Wowie

[Ex Douglas Driver]

I'm talking to both the RAF and RAAF.

Initial response from the RAAF was that I could fly the F18 in the new year, after a short period of flying the Hawk.
Since then I've been told that that career path would be unlikely. I imagine that the push would be to complete FIC and then instruct somewhere like Tamworth on the CT4. Then who knows what??

Conversely the RAF have said many times that I would be able to go straight to the front-line after a short UK orientation on the Tucano. My preference is for Jaguar due to similarity to A4 ops.

From where I sit I'm swayed towards the RAF. If the RAAF wants to recruit trained jet pilots into their system I would've thought that you'd offer a semi-attractive posting first up and then talk about options after completing the first tour. I realise that the RAAF doesn't want to be seen to disadvantage its own people, but I'm in the position that I want to keep flying fast jets. If I want to be an Airtrainer instructor I'll stay here (Well probably not, the pay and conditions are crap & I know the grass is certainly greener!!)

[madcat666]

The sad thing is that in years to come, these will be known to as the good old days. Scary thought huh.
Don't dispare, all is well with life on the other side of the fence. And all those employers want from you , is for you to fly their airplanes.
Good luck, and get those ATPLs.

[Ex F111]

Douglas

I left the RAAF and joined RAF.

Contracted to fly front line aircraft [Tornado]

Left RAAF due to its inability to retain experience [too many foreigners joining and flying my aircraft] - what does that now make me!!


Good luck with the 'D' - At least the RAF offer permanent Spec Aircrew.