No upgrades for SO's!

[bonaqua]

As we await the new training plan 2010, word on the street is that very few upgrades are planned! This will push the time spent on a Second Officer salary to 4 - 4.5yrs at least. Can CX really expect to keep these officers content for this length of time? Especially when they should have been upgraded before the downturn and hiring of DEFO's. Loyalty from the ranks when other airlines start hiring again will be very thin on the ground!

[555orange]

Solidarity is one way! I know the "association" is weak, but if more no's joined and we voted for new management, maybe we could move in a direction where the company will respect the group as a whole more.

[Humber10]

Well you cant complain. The company really did have a good argument at the labor tribunal; as SK stated, 'it's a safety issue, S/Os just dont have the experience to be upgraded, hence the DEFOs....blah blah blah'. Nothing to do with costs etc.

[Rook]

That's funny, seeing as though some of our SO's just as and in some cases are more experienced than the DEFO's we have hired.

[bonaqua]

As expected, the upgrade numbers are going to be worse than this year, so maybe 12 or 14 upgrades total!! All these 777's are going to be crewed with existing FO's and not the 3yr + SO's waiting in the ranks. Thank you Nick! See you in court again you :mad:!!!!!!!!!!

[hekokimushi]

Well you cant complain. The company really did have a good argument at the labor tribunal; as SK stated, 'it's a safety issue, S/Os just dont have the experience to be upgraded, hence the DEFOs....blah blah blah'. Nothing to do with costs etc.

no way! if it is not COST ASSOCIATED, why did they hire those DEFO?!?!


That's funny, seeing as though some of our SO's just as and in some cases are more experienced than the DEFO's we have hired.

i concur.

AND worse, some DEFO disrespect SO that are more senior to those DEFO. hanging up hat, jacket, putting away Jepps Charts, summing up the minutes on FPLN, if you ask with some manner (please)... no SOs will say no.

[uspilot]

So I guess they will hire more DEFO. Trust me its cheaper to hire DEFO than upgrading SO, when they upgrade a SO its 2 training event, Training the SO to become a JFO than training someone else to replace the SO. But when they hire DEFO its just one Training event with bottom of scale in salary.

[Shot Nancy]

hanging up hat, jacket, putting away Jepps Charts, summing up the minutes on FPLN, if you ask with some manner (please)... no SOs will say no.

WTF are you talking about? You have to hang up someone's clothes?
Next thing you will be telling me that you have to make their bed as well!

[jonathon68]

With Oz and middle east mainly going 2 man crew under the new AFTLS there will be yet more perceived (by Management) surplus crew. :eek:

2010 will be crewed from existing crew levels with the only additions being Cadet S/O's. I forgot to confirm with my source that they will be all for the 777, but I assume so. Zero DEFO or DESO are planned for next year.

There are 20 planned S/O to JF/O upgrades for 2010, all on the 777, in the words of a training manager "to keep the system ticking over". :*

There are some HKG 744 captain conversions to the Bus and also many HKG Bus F/O conversions to the 777 in addition to continuing North American based Captains and F/O's converting to the 777.

Recent optimism about Command and JF/O courses for 2010 has been basically scuppered by the Company planning for the new AFTLS crewing levels. Obviously this will affect movement throughout the system.

For anyone not in receipt of full bypass pay, then truly the next year will suck. :yuk:

[Near Miss]

So uspilot I guess then the company had better start hiring DEC then? I mean to upgrade a FO to Capt is a 3 step training event. Train FO to Capt, train SO to replace FO, and then find and train someone to replace the SO. If I am to trust you, then DEC would cheaper for the company, and therefore in the best interest for all employees. :rolleyes:

[Flaps10]

Don't mind USPILOT he's just trying to justify his own existence as a "DEFO" in the company. Putz! :ugh:

[flynhigh]

There are some HKG 744 captain conversions to the Bus and also many HKG Bus F/O conversions to the 777 in addition to continuing North American based Captains and F/O's converting to the 777.

If thats the case who will replace those N.America Cargo F/O's who will be converting to 777, would it be SO's and JFO who are Hong Kong Base or would they have new hire's to crew them, wouldn't that be a pay cut for SO's and JFO's to take that route.

[uspilot]

Guys I think you all missed understand what I was saying. First of all I am not DEFO at CX. I have been with EK for about 3 long years:{. All I was trying to say was that’s what they will do to save a dollar. They can careless what’s fair:mad:, I know for a fact that CX has some very experience SO, but the company will hire DEFO because it’s cheaper, we do it all the time here at EK, we hire DEC because its cheaper for the company, I have work with DEC with zero time on type:eek:…but I don’t blame the DEC, they were offered a job and they took it, I blame the company for keep moving the goal post on us. I hope I was able to clear it up.:ok:

[FIRESYSOK]

..........there their they're............

[blah blah blah]

So what happens to SO pay if upgrades dont happen? I thought there were only 4 years of pay scales. After this are you just stuck at that rate or does Bypass start? Or is Bypass just a dream now?

[quadspeed]

Bypass pay?

Well, most CoS 99 Second Officers are completely unsuitable since they haven't been assessed. And with no more upgrades needed, no more assessments. Hence no more suitability, and no more bypass pay. Year 4 pay scale indefinitely.

As for the CoS 08 Second Officers, bypass pay is automatically triggered when a DEFO or DEC bypasses you after you've done 3 years making bunks. Any bypassing before that doesn't count. But you could well see CoS08 SOs collecting bypass pay before Cos99s.

Truly beautiful system, isn't it? Creating a winning team for the future.

[Loiter1]

Guys, just save your dollars for a deposit and make sure CX pays for your Hong Kong pad (if you have a housing allowance!), then get that free endorsement and the worlds yours oyster. Don't make the mistake of setting your heart on a CX career: the days of CX being an aspirational airline are coming to an end. If you focus on what you can get out of these people it will get you through, otherwise be prepared for many years of frustration.:ok:

[Humber10]

any of you written to the AOA to voice your concern? No mention of this in the AOA forums or from the AOA either, it will fall on deaf ears here.

[Captain Dart]

So who you gonna call then, Billy?

[WakeUpJeff]

Ghostbusters!!!!......nah nah naaaaah nah!!!!

[bonaqua]

This thread is stupid. No one gives a crap in the real world. Please, please, please email the AOA or have a personal meeting with top management. I think we all pay the HKAOA to do something, so let them be our representitive!

[yokebearer]

Sure...lets ask the AOA. Lets see - last time they were involved in anything all the A scalers got 3 more years of A scale and then B scale to 65. All the B scale commanders got 65. All the curent FO's got bypass on a base where they can sit forever and collect Cpt pay. And all the SO's got sweet F all. They have to sit on SO scales indefinately and then wait 15 years for command and then retire at 55.

Way to GO!!!

[quadspeed]

Well done, Mr. Bonaqua.

With a single post, you've managed to reduce a healthy argument to nothing, (but rest assured), in the real world the rest of us "give a crap". Ads for the email to the AOA, good on you! I think I might even roster a little one-on-one time next week to explore the idea of mutual-trust/co-op management/little-did-we-know-about-ass-*******-of-newly-hired-dumbasses with management.

Oh, let me trust my family, future and career with an airline I believe in. Because, as things stand, my buddies' contract at Easyjet is worth more than your undersigned FO will ever earned in the Fragrent Harbour. Sink or swim?

[Blogsey]

And all the SO's got sweet F all

Clearly, if they had of done better at school, things would be different.....

(oohhh, this is gonna hurt......):ouch:

[SloppyJoe]

With Oz and middle east mainly going 2 man crew under the new AFTLS there will be yet more perceived (by Management) surplus crew. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/eek.gif

Don't think this is going to happen, don't think the company do either. There are 117 Airbus SO's and more are getting trained each time a new batch of cadets graduate. Where will these guys go? All I do is ME and AUS trips as an SO, if there are no more SO's on those patterns my roster is going to become awesome.

[411A]

Second Officers.
This sort of idea went out with DC-7's, Constellations and Stratocruisers.
And...Qantas.
Get real....directly hire FirstOfficers and leave this SO cr*p behind.
CX...stuck in the past.:rolleyes:

[T101]

A'men, 411A! Very far in the past indeed...

[411A]

A'men, 411A! Very far in the past indeed...
Absolutely.
CX hires Second Officers, then....goes around 'em and hires direct entry First Officers.
Imagine....how demoralizing is that.
Now, some might say, 'well on our longer sectors, these Second Officers are very useful.'
Baloney, I say....hire pilots to be pilots, not just sit there keeping the plog up to date.:rolleyes:
SQ had the right idea....train new guys to proficiency, then put 'em to work actually flying the airplane.:}

[CXChildLabour]

As far as I know, there's even a surplus of graduated cadets now. Apparently the latest group of graduates will not start working for the company for another year, *if* they get offered a contract which is not a guarantee.

Simple mind doing simple math here. Natural career progression: SO->FO->CN->retiree. Now all of a sudden there would be no one retiring for another 10 years (suppose all CN stay on till 65), it ain't hard to do the math backwards. There's simply no need to change the status quo if they ain't losing anyone from the top of the chart. Even if the fleet keeps expanding by say maybe 1 per month, they would still have no problem crewing them for quite some time, considering the fact that they have too many CN's as of now and make them do relief sectors all the time.

[Blutack]

So what is the answer then clearly Billy Sex Crime and yokebearer do not think it is worth contacting the AoA.

What else can we do to ensure we are not screwed over on BPP, especially when the hiring of DEFO's start again in the next upswing?:ugh:

[jonathon68]

Sloppy Joe.

I like an optimist! :D But I don't think the Company are going to let you sit around doing nothing. I believe that the papework is being done on S/O type conversion courses to shuffle people onto busier ULH fleets.

There is a planned trickle intake of the newly graduating Cadets, but it is correct that most will be waiting on the sidelines for 6-12 months.

(Edited for bad speeling.)

[boxjockey]

Why on God's green earth would the company do type conversion courses for S/Os, instead of simply doing an upgrade and better utilizing them? Makes zero sense. Therefore, it must be true..... :yuk:

[Liam Gallagher]

All the current FO's are not on base on BPP. In fact very few are, however, the next command is going to be offered to the senior most FO, based or not. Should the Command be turned down, BPP will be reallocated. Stand-by for fireworks on that one!

I understand about half the current SO's are on COS 98, RA 65 and no BPP. That was the deal they signed and surely there can be no complaints about that. When they joined DEFO's were being recruited, so with an element of homework they should have known the score upon joining.

The other half-ish who joined on COS99 had the option to stay or go. Maybe not ideal, but at least they had an option to stay on the deal they signed. The company are determined not to pay BPP, and the only leverage is coming from the very hard work of a few AOA members and the cash provided by the AOA members.

I am not sure which category you are, COS08/ COS99 or whatever; in any event the only people protecting your interests in any way, shape or form is the AOA. Judging by your post, I would guess you are not are member of the AOA and should the AOA get a cash settlement for the litigation relating to the unpaid SO BPP, I don't expect you will want a payout.:eek:

[yokebearer]

Liam - you misanderstand. I am a member. And I am cos99. I am not talking about the SO bypass - if you read my post properly you won't find it anywhere in there. The AOA is doing a great job on that court case so far.

What I am talking about is the absolute cluster failure the so called negotiations a few months ago became.

It was essentially teh old boys club protecting themselves by awarding themselves 65 - and absolutely nothing came out of it for junior crew. And the AOA failed to stop the shamefull way in which cos99 vs cos08 was used by the company to achive this aim and split the pilot group.

blablablablablaaahhh and so on

[uspilot]

Hello Guys
Just a quick question. Few of my friends who are based in N.America their 3 year commitment on the freighter is coming up and I think all of them are moving to HKG on the Pax side of the operation, will that effect you SO's if they move, than who will crew the open slot they leave behind in NA freighter side, Can you SO's bid for those slots. I am sorry for what is happening to you guys:ugh:

[boxjockey]

Pretty sure that the guys coming off the freighter have to wait until the SO above him has had a crack at JFO. I believe that is the case, or at least it used to be....

[411A]

JFO
More CX horsepucky.
Junior First Officers went out with Stratocruisers at most other companies:ugh:

It should be, either First Officer or Senior First Officer.

Train to proficiency...something CX seems to have left behind with their Second Officer nonsense.:eek:

[Five Green]

USpilot:

In order for a freighter FO to move on to the pax basing several things need to happer:

1. There is an FO slot available in seniority order. Meaning the more senior officer has been offered the upgrade/slot.

2. The freighter basing can be covered. FOs have been kept on the freighter for up to two years if there is not enough FOs to cover the roster.

3. The officer elects to take the base offered.

4. The officer agrees to take any course (ie any airplane)

The co. will want to keep the freighter FOs on the 400 but with the changes in the pax 400 schedule it may not always work that way from now on.

As for who will replace them, all new hire FOs and SOs on COS08 are now on the unified payscale and therefore if 400 qualified will fly either freighter or pax. As such the freighter FOs after their commitment is up, may be able (or forced) to stay on the freighter base, but move on to unified pay (cos08). It should also mean that FOs and SOs can bid for 400 bases be they freighter or not.

As with anything stand by for new message !

Cheers

FG

[2longhk]

Seem to recall NR promising everyone there would be no delay in promotions with age 65.
Oh well, lets blame the AOA.

[bonaqua]

Emirates are recruiting First Officers!! They have been since Sept 09, requiring FO's for expansion plans. Current fleet 138, 200 by 2012 and 300 by 2016. Good command prospects vs CX's 14-15yrs to left seat. CX is a Capt's airline, so are you happy to sit in the back and eventually the left seat for most of your career?

[BusyB]

They are recruiting because so many are resigning:confused:

[Aussie]

Last i heard only 2% resigning...

[BusyB]

From the ME forum

"Regarding numbers I confirm the 130plus guys, see my post on another thread.

And theres more, 2 out of the 3 FOs I flew with last have either resigned, or are waiting on course dates to resign, and the other one that isn't leaving has several job offers so is not about to take anymore s#@t."

If thats 2% they must have 7000 pilots:}

[Harbour Dweller]

DEFO's recruited into Pax basings in Europe are already relocating to the HKG base.