Jon Stewart and Sullenberger on Pilot's wages...

[4-Daned]

The Daily Show Full Episode | Tuesday Oct 13 2009 | Comedy Central (http://www.thedailyshow.com/full-episodes/252453/tue-october-13-2009-chesley-sullenberger)

[aislinn]

Thanks 4D Enjoyed it all.

[mass debator]

He hit the nail right on the head!

Sadly it'll take a hull loss for HKA or Cx before their greedy managers realise the truth in that. Even then, they'll blame the pilots......it'll never be a management fault.

[CokeZero]

Just put the damn tabs back in the book!!!

[Rook]

Well done.

[Ex Cathedra]

Sully is an asset to the aviation business. He has almost entirely dedicated his '15 minutes of fame' under the media spotlight to fight a worthy cause for the entire industry and to help his own kind.

I know there are many others out there which would have done the same in his situation and I am proud of calling people like them my colleagues.





...Ok, so he made a few bucks and got a book deal too....
:E

[moosp]

Mass D it is probably before your time but we had a senior pilot manager some years ago who stated, "We can afford a hull loss...".

A wise chairman might have sacked him for such a statement but he retracted and stayed for a while before moving on to another jurisdiction.

I suspect that somewhere in every airline there is a number cruncher who works to the same deplorable standards of morality.

Back to the thread. Yes Sully has energised the pilot debate in the US, and I think the congressmen that he has addressed fly frequently enough to try to improve the appalling system that exists today.

[bigjames]

two thumbs up!

[AnQrKa]

"Sadly it'll take a hull loss for HKA or Cx before their greedy managers realise the truth in that. Even then, they'll blame the pilots......it'll never be a management fault."

Are you seriously lumping CX/KA pilots into the same basket as USAir. Sully probably earns between one half to one third that CX/KA skippers do.

Do you really think things are so tough in the harbor of fragrance that a hull loss is just around the corner?

Get a grip.

[Humber10]

sounds like some of our crew are complacent, a hull loss could happen to the best of us. Take Sullys scenario for instance.

[Left Wing]

AnQrKa-- 2 tumbs up..:ok::ok: ..CX/KA pilots crying for money is shameful.

[mass debator]

Leftwing

It's :mad: like you that lower that standards for everyone else.

Obviously you don't pride yourself on the effort and hard work it takes to become an airline pilot. Or did Daddy pay for your licence?

You deserve the sh!t pay you get.

Anqrka

Where did I compare USair pilots with CX? If you can read and understand english properly, its a stab at management of CX and HKA (not KA).

[744drv]

I’m a member of a number of international forums where, despite language problems, the members support each other and offer advice. The posts never drop to the base level that I have so often seen in Pprune. Why such vitriol from some pilots? A sad reflection on their maturity I suspect :=

[Lowkoon]

Anqrka, usually 99% I agree with you, but not on this one. This isnt about salaries in the Harbour, agreed. However, do you think the move towards 3 man ULH is safety driven or dollar driven? Do you think introducing LH procedures that have 'stood the test of time' but have questionable relevance to SH, and a move away from manufacturer recommended SOPS is safety driven or dollar driven, and during the introduction of those procedures, do you think your situational awareness was increased or decreased? Now that the hangover of drinking from the fire hose of learning, we are seeing an improvement or drop in standards as the guys are just exhausted by 'change saturation'? On the engineering front do you think the move to allow mechanics to sign intransit checks, but not having to sign their name so that a paper trail no longer exists is a move towards safety, or driven by the dollar because we cant attract engineering staff?

Would it be fair to say that 'it cant happen to us because we are paid ok' relative to what other operators pay, that is to say we are most at risk, when we go around saying it cant happen to us. Its not our pay packets, its what is happening around us that should be waving red flags. Mass has a point, the industry as a whole 'IS' less safe when regulators sign off on commercial pressures. The industry is less safe when companies think they know better than the manufacturers on how to operate aircraft. The industry is 'less safe' when fatigue management is ignored, and the industry is 'less safe' when money is sapped from engineering to line the pockets of investors and managers in the short term, "this quarter results" style management.

Cheers.

[T101]

Denial is a powerful thing.

You guys really believe that if Sully here was payed a trillion dollars a year, and had to do just one day trip a month, and his jet was maintained like Air Force 1, these birds woudn't have hit them? C'mon.

Hull loss is a statistical inevitability. All we can do is hope, that we wouldn't be in that hull when it happens. Want 100% aviation safety? Don't try to fly.

CX is a reputable carrier, no doubt, but we have lost airplanes in the past, can't ignore that.

[buggaluggs]

LowKoon , well done, totally agree :ok:

[Lowkoon]

T101, Sully wasn't saying that, and neither are we. If you think his entire speech was about the safety implications of a single event bird strike on that particular day, then you maybe missed the whole point he was trying to make. The industry wide degradation of terms and conditions is just one of the symptoms of an even bigger problem.

The problem is that those who are responsible for implementing safety improvements are remunerated more in the form of a bonus if they don't implement the safety improvement, simply because safety costs money. Think about it, when was the last time you can remember a safety enhancing system or procedure that was introduced and paid for that wasn't legislated by one of the countries we fly to, and a requirement imposed my them, or something that the manufacturers had to implement themselves, in the form of an 'extra' included in orders or something that they were pressured into by the unions, public or other operators? Scratching your head? Now try and think of an example of where management actively set out to reduce safety in a blatant effort to increase profits? Both their own personal remuneration and that of the 'group'? I mentioned 3 recent ones in my previous post. This is what Sully is actively and openly referring to.

Stupidity is expecting managers to improve safety (ie spend money in a way that can not be statistically quantified to accountants) when their own remuneration is derived by them not spending the money. This is the ultimate source of the problem. Think of the childhood game "kerplunk". Needles are pulled out of a cylinder, and marbles sit above these needles. The aim of the game is to pull as many needles out, before the marbles fall. Management get to play this game blind folded. They get a bonus for each needle they pull out, but they don't know how many marbles are balanced precariously above the needle they are pulling on. The inevitable hull loss you mention becomes more inevitable while this fundamentally flawed system remains in place.

[Rook]

Well said.

[junior_man]

4 minute speech at ALPA awards banquet. Well worth watching.

ALPA Channel Player > August 6, 2009 ? Capt. Chesley ?Sully? Sullenberger at the ALPA Awards Banquet (http://www.alpa.tv/ALPAChannelPlayer/TabId/404/VideoId/246/August-6-2009--Capt-Chesley-Sully-Sullenberger-At-The-ALPA-Awards-Banquet.aspx)

[crewsunite]

Very gd speech in particular from 3:20 onwards.

Ie Our promise to operate with great care & preparation etc..

I have certainly noticed some pilots have lost track of this.

You could argue many ways as to why..

At the end of the day it is the Governments & the airlines responsibility to ensure
that in the long term those pilots with strong integrity & assertive personalities are maintained and nurtured.

Dismissing those that stand up for what is wrong, unjust and unsafe. (49's) Then using that to manipulating others that remain will certainly change the very core of the future of those that remain.

At the same time cutting costs in maintenance, shortcuts in training, and messing with FTL (Fatigue) and then ultimately HR continually changing career paths / contracts & remuneration & other benefits adds fuel to the already unstable fire of ever changing personalities of those that operate aircraft.

Sadly, it is unlikely that the majority of consumers will realize this and put more pressure on Gov & Operators to change their ways. As long as not more than a constant percentage of planes fall out the sky & ticket prices are affordable to ensure bums fill seats most will be happy.

What happened the no1. Priority SAFETY FIRST! :sad:
Always aiming to improve etc..

[coolio]

STATEMENT OF CAPTAIN CHESLEY B. SULLENBERGER, III
CAPTAIN, US AIRWAYS FLIGHT 1549
BEFORE THE SUBCOMMITTEE ON AVIATION
COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORTATION AND INFRASTRUCTURE
UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
FEBRUARY 24, 2009
Chairman Costello, Chairman Oberstar, Ranking Members Mica and Petri, and other members of the committee, it is my great honor to appear before the Aviation Subcommittee today. I am proud of the fact that I have been involved in aviation for the last 42 years. During that time, I have served our country as a U. S. Air Force pilot, served as an Air Line Pilots Association Local Air Safety Committee Chairman, accident investigator and national technical committee member, amassed a total flying time of almost 20,000 hours and flown approximately one million passengers in my 29 years as a professional airline pilot. I have served as a Check Airman and a Crew Resource Management course developer and facilitator. I am also the founder of Safety Reliability Methods, Inc.
Before I begin, I must first say that my heart goes out to all those affected by the tragic loss of Continental Connection flight 3407. Words cannot express my sadness and grief at the loss of 50 lives. The families of those no longer with us are in my thoughts and in my heart.
The events of January 15, 2009 have been well-documented, and rather than recite them now in great detail, I want only to reiterate to the subcommittee that the successful outcome was achieved by the actions of many. Lives were saved due to the combination of a very experienced, well-trained crew: First Officer Jeff Skiles, and Flight Attendants Donna Dent, Doreen Welsh and Sheila Dail, all of whom acted in a remarkable display of teamwork, along with expert air traffic controllers, the orderly cooperation of our cool-headed passengers, and the quick and determined actions of the professional and volunteer first responders in New York City.
The events of January 15 serve as a reminder to us all of the daily devotion to duty of the many thousands of aviation professionals who keep air travel safe, and also as a reminder of what is really at stake. Like thousands of my fellow professional airline pilots, I know that flying a large commercial airliner is a tremendous responsibility. We understand that our passengers put their lives in our hands. We know that we must always be prepared. We must always anticipate. We must always be vigilant. Expecting the unexpected and having an effective plan for dealing with it must be in the very makeup of every professional airline pilot.
I am not only proud of my crew, I am proud of my profession. Flying has been my life-long passion. I count myself fortunate to have spent my life in the profession I love, with colleagues whom I respect and admire. But, honorable Representatives, while I love my
profession, I do not like what has happened to it. I would not be doing my duty if I did not report to you that I am deeply worried about its future.
Americans have been experiencing huge economic difficulties in recent months – but airline employees have been experiencing those challenges, and more, for the last 8 years! We have been hit by an economic tsunami. September 11, bankruptcies, fluctuating fuel prices, mergers, loss of pensions and revolving door management teams who have used airline employees as an ATM have left the people who work for airlines in the United States with extreme economic difficulties.
It is an incredible testament to the collective character, professionalism and dedication of my colleagues in the industry that they are still able to function at such a high level. It is my personal experience that my decision to remain in the profession I love has come at a great financial cost to me and my family. My pay has been cut 40%, my pension, like most airline pensions, has been terminated and replaced by a PBGC guarantee worth only pennies on the dollar.
While airline pilots are by no means alone in our financial struggles – and I want to acknowledge how difficult it is for everyone right now – it is important to underscore that the terms of our employment have changed dramatically from when I began my career, leading to an untenable financial situation for pilots and their families. When my company offered pilots who had been laid off the chance to return to work, 60% refused. Members, I attempt to speak accurately and plainly, so please do not think I exaggerate when I say that I do not know a single professional airline pilot who wants his or her children to follow in their footsteps.
I am worried that the airline piloting profession will not be able to continue to attract the best and the brightest. The current experience and skills of our country’s professional airline pilots come from investments made years ago when we were able to attract the ambitious, talented people who now frequently seek lucrative professional careers. That past investment was an indispensible element in our commercial aviation infrastructure, vital to safe air travel and our country’s economy and security. If we do not sufficiently value the airline piloting profession and future pilots are less experienced and less skilled, it logically follows that we will see negative consequences to the flying public – and to our country.
We face remarkable challenges in our industry. In order to ensure economic security and an uncompromising approach to passenger safety, management must work with labor to bargain in good faith. We must find collective solutions that address the huge economic issues we face in recruiting and retaining the experienced and highly skilled professionals that the industry requires and that passenger safety demands. But further, we must develop and sustain an environment in every airline and aviation organization – a culture that balances the competing needs of accountability and learning. We must create and maintain the trust that is the absolutely essential element of a successful and sustainable safety reporting system to detect and correct deficiencies before they lead to an accident. We must not let the economic and financial pressures detract from a focus on constantly
improving our safety measures and engaging in ongoing and comprehensive training. In aviation, the bottom line is that the single most important piece of safety equipment is an experienced, well-trained pilot.
Despite the bad economic news we’ve experienced in recent times – despite the many challenges we face as a country – I have faith in America, in our people, in our promise. I have briefly touched upon some major problems in my industry today – but I do not believe they are intractable, should we decide to work collectively to solve them.
We all have roles to play in this effort. Despite the economic turbulence hitting our industry, the airline companies must refocus their attention – and their resources – on the recruitment and retention of highly experienced and well-trained pilots, and make that a priority that is at least equal to their financial bottom line. Jeff and I, and our fellow pilots will fly planes and continue to upgrade our education and our training, while we attempt to provide for our families. Patrick and the other talented Air Traffic Controllers will continue to guide us safely through the skies, our passengers will spend their hard-earned money to pay for their travel, and our flight attendants, mechanics, ground crews, and administrative personnel will deal with the thousands of constant details and demands that keep our planes safely in the air.
You can help us, honorable Members of Congress, to work together across party lines, and can demand – or legislate – that labor, management, safety experts, educators, technical experts, and everyday Americans join together to find solutions to these problems. We all honor our responsibilities in good faith and with respect for one another. We must keep the American commercial aviation industry safe and affordable for passengers, and financially viable for those who work in the industry day to day. And for those talented young men and women considering what to do with their lives, we must restore the narrative of a compelling career path in aviation with sufficient economic resources to once again make this vision a reality.
Thank you for your kind attention, and for the opportunity to share my perspective with this Committee.