Afghanistan-your thoughts on this?

[nosefirsteverytime]

Just after seeing the documentary on Channel 4, looks like a worthy topic for politically-minded people like yourselves. If it's not, then sorry for putting it here.

All I can say is this: MY GOD, is there NOTHING we can do? It's obvious these bastards won't listen to the outside world (they had the nerve to insult us by asking the outside for money for an excution arena! The bastards!). I'd almost send arms to the opposition there, if I were in any sort of position of power! I feel really pissed off about this, I was half-thinking of joining the armed forces at some point, but now I'd say, if it gets me somewhere where I can combat this type of tyranny, wherever it may be, then I'm in!

Well, that's my thoughts on it, futile, but at least I let off some steam! Any thought yourselves?

(Editing this because i just found out i'm supposed to put this in jet blast! sorry everyone!)

[This message has been edited by nosefirsteverytime (edited 26 June 2001).]

[BEagle]

Shouldn't we think about Southern Rhodesia first?? Or whatever they call it now that it's no longer coloured pink in the atlas. Your comments would be just as appropriate applied to the charming Comrade Bob......

[Man-on-the-fence]

You as for "my" thoughts on Afganistan, well I am sorry but I dont have any. Nor do I give the slightest damn what goes on there. I have tried but there it is.

Wasnt it Bob Dylan who said when asked about his views on the Vietnam War "I have no views on the Vietnam War"

Edited to agree with BEagle, now that IS somewhere that we should stick our noses into (as part of a UN force or whatever)

But Afganistan, nope sorry but I dont give a toss.



[This message has been edited by Man-on-the-fence (edited 26 June 2001).]

[Nil nos tremefacit]

Afghanistan is in much the same state as it was when we foolishly tried to civilise it. The people appear not to have changed. I think it was Kipling who wrote:

'When you're lying on Afghanistan's plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Roll to your rifle and blow out your brains,
And go to your death like a soldier.'

Plus ca change.

[Jackonicko]

If the Taliban are an accurate reflection of what Islamic fundamentalism is like in power, then it's a very sad situation and a very worrying one. Even if they're a local phenomenon, shaped by Afghanistan's turbulent recent history, it's deeply sad for those they're persecuting and murdering. But having said all that, I don't see what we (or the International Community more widely) can do about it. I don't see our new ForSec having the balls to start a massive arms supply programme to the Northern Alliance (or even via neighbouring states like Uzbekistan), and I'm at a loss as to how pressure could be brought to bear on Pakistan to stop them giving the Taliban aid and sanctuary.

[Suit]

Man-on-the-fence,

So, we should intervene in Zimbabwe but NOT in Afghanistan, what's the difference to you, is it perhaps anything to do with the colour of the skin of the victims I wonder?



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If the suit fits.........

[Man-on-the-fence]

Suit

At no time in any of my posts have I mentioned Colour or Religion, and come to think of it, HOW DO YOU KNOW THE COLOUR OF MY SKIN. For your information I find racial abuse abhorrant.

I await your apology



[This message has been edited by Man-on-the-fence (edited 27 June 2001).]

[only1leftmate!]

Get involved in Afghanistan?

And the threat to the European Border is what exactly?

Any other countries or people (s) you wish to kill or persecute?

If you care so much about the situation there that you are moved to take up arms then what is stopping you? Buy a ticket, dress up as rambo and go poncing around brandishing whatever easily-picked-up weaponry you fancy. I'd give you 3 days - Maximum.

[Nil nos tremefacit]

In Zimbabwe the colour of the skin is not our issue. Most victims of the lunacy that passes for government are black. For Mugabe land reform is not the real issue since he and his cronies own hundreds of farms each. Mugabe wants to see the back of the whites, but also wants to hold on to power for as long as he lives.

The problem is that the constitution that Mugabe is abusing to achieve his aims was written in England by Brits. It is that constitution that is also being used where possible to maintain what little law and order remains. Those of us who are old enough will recall Southern Rhodesia, UDI ('weeks not months') and the Lancaster House Agreement.

Zimbabwe is part of the Commonwealth; English is the official language because of our colonial past. Some of the whites do still have close familial ties with this country. Many of the more prosperous and wealthy blacks were educated in our universities. There are still a few serving RAF officers who have the medal for establishing the peace after UDI ended. We have only recently stopped providing military advice.

If we as a country were to be asked to help in Zimbabwe (which is landlocked), then with the agreement of neighbouring states (South Africa, Zambia) we should help in any way possible.

Afghanistan is a mess. It is a problem that we cannot get too involved in even if we had the capacity. Our last forays were disastrous and cost thousands of British lives for no political gain whatsoever. We should help Pakistan if they ask, because again that country is of our making. Indeed many British citizens of Pakistani origin and many Pakistanis resident in the UK do get involved in Afghan support groups and charities. It would be really nice to see the end of the Taliban, but what would replace them? Most educated Afghans live outside their own country. The remnants of the pre-Soviet government (remember 1979/80) are not a coherent force. It will take a generation just to purge what little society survives of the madmen that run it, unless the UN allow whoever takes over to do unto the Taliban as they have been doing unto others (the traditional Afghan way).

Just my thoughts.

[Man-on-the-fence]

NNT

Thank you, you put into words exactly what wished I could. Unfortunately my pea brain had run out of shillings in the meter.

Thanks once again

MOTF

[EESDL]

Who feels that if it was a white dictator/butcher killing black farmers and families, how many student union buildings would have had their names changed from "The Mandela Building" in protest.
The British Gov turned their backs on Rhodesia and we sit and fart in the political wind.
PS I'm married to a foreign, deigo, wopp, so I can say what I like...hell of a price to pay mind you:-)

[Suit]

Nil Nos,

Nicely put and very clear, thanks.

Man on the fence,

I do NOT apologise for asking a question!

EESDL,

"The British Government turned it's back on Rhodesia?"

What the hell do you think UDI was all about? If they hadn't gone down that road none of this would be happening.



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If the suit fits.........

[Man-on-the-fence]

Suit

It took it as an insinuation that I was racist, hence my anger (I believe you should now have got the message on that one).

In answer, as Zimbabwe is a former British Colony I feel we have some sort of responsibility towards it, so the answer to your question is NO! it has nothing to do with the colour of anybodys skin.

And no I still dont give a toss about Afganistan

[opso]

To be fair to M-O-T-F, Suit, your post was phrased more as an insinuation against M_O_T_F's attitude to race issues than it was a simple question to further understand the motives of his view. I think that it was the inclusion of the '...I wonder?' that turned your post. In this day and age of PC gone mad we have all seen people ruined through insinuation against EO or toher things. Whilst that is unlikely to happen on an anonymous bulletin board, I can understand why M-O-T-F was/is angered by your post, especially as the insinuation was based on scant information within a single post by him.

If you don't believe me, try this (totally fictitious) example on for size. Imagine you were a strong believer and supporter of the various youth movements (scouts, cadet forces, BB etc) feeling that a structured voluntary organization moulds the youth of today ready for a prductive place in society. Putting your money where your mouth is, you become a youth leader and in a post to a bulletin board, you state your opinion that leaders like yourself need to keep the youngsters constantly supervised whilst away from their parents. Which reply would you prefer:

Why constant supervision - doesn't that stiffle their development and breach their privacy? or

So, Suit watches little boys whenever their parents aren't around - I wonder why? Even in the shower, Suit?

Whilst that example is somewhat contrived, I hope that it illustrates why M-O-T-F was upset by your post and that he's not simply asking you to apologise for asking a question. Not that there's any need to apologise - judging by his recent performance I'm sure that BEagle will be along shortly to apologise on your behalf! http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/awink.gif

[Man-on-the-fence]

opso
Thank you, you have hit the nail on the head.

Suit
Its all water under the bridge (or fence) now. Life is too short

MOTF

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Afg - i wish to see not one British hair risked in that theatre.

Zim - well. We do have a remit being the previous owner... It is very very true that there is little sentiment in the popular Western culture for expression of outrage that white africans are being forcibly removed from their homes and persecuted as a matter of government policy.... in fact let me firm that up - I am pee'd off that Mr Mugabee is allowed to get away with this; he is in contravetion of several well respected international conventions so lets see him in the Hague next week... FAT chance.

We should never set oursleves to be the worlds peacekeeper. However, we *do* have a limited commitment to help out commonwealth countries because we did nick all their gold in exchange for marbles. The line should be drawn very shortly afterwards. In addition we have an obligation to lead the censure of those ex-colonies that descend into the genocide that Mr Mugabe seems intent upon...

WWW

[This message has been edited by Wee Weasley Welshman (edited 29 June 2001).]

[Chinese Vic]

The difference between Zimbabwe and Sierra Leone?

Could it be $330 million per annum in diamond sales? Or is that being a tad too cynical?

Launch the Wing! Send the Fleet! What's the motivation there I wonder?

Afghanistan is one we should stay well out of - look what happened to the Soviets...
but it's interesting that Russia is now becoming extremely worried about the expansion of Islamic Fundamentalism along its southern borders - witness the heavy handed tactics in Chechnya (Scuds/MRLs/Fuel-Air Explosives). Our colleagues in Moscow are taking it very seriously....

[Overshoot Kenobi]

Guys, have we forgotten that the Taliban provided most of what were commonly referred to as the Mujahadeen? They were brave independance minded freedom-fighters battling against the Soviet ogres, but now they're biting the hand that fed them. Well, not so much the hand, but the hand's principles. But then we (as in the West) have a bit of a track record for this. Don't forget that the CIA financed Gadaffi's rise to power, as they rather naively thought that a Muslim hardliner would be anti-communist by definition. Sadly they underestimated his pragmatism.
But back to the Taliban; yes, they're an evil bunch of thugs, but I did feel that the programme was likely to be less than objective considering the background of Saira Shah. I'm not saying she was wrong in any of the conclusions she drew about the Taliban, but having had personal experience of the Bosnian conflict I think it would be naive to paint things in black and white, and suspect (with no evidence other than past experiences) that the opposition probably indulge in the odd atrocity themselves.
As for Zimbabwe, it's the way the African continent is going. Mugabe has probably read Henry IV, and is familiar with the concept of 'dizzying English minds with foreign quarrels' and that I feel is the basis of the land-reclamation programme. But Arap Moi in Kenya is no better, although he hasn't quite gone as far as Mugabe. A leader from a minority tribe, he's damned if he's going to agree to free elections if it means he loses power.
The real failure, in my humble opinion, is our supervision of the original elections in 1980, when soldiers were ordered not to intervene when Zapu and Zano guerrillas were pointing rifles at people's heads to ensure they voted the 'right way'. Hence the utter defeat of Bishop Muzerewa, the moderate candidate. In the light of all that's happened in sub-Saharan Africa, I think that whilst S Africa is far from peaceful, the transition was far less traumatic than it could have been, and Mandela deserves massive credit for his tolerance.
I also recognise some of the earlier posts point about it being seen as very difficult to comment about such matters without provoking instant accusations of racism.
Enough, methinks.....

[only1leftmate!]

Must disagree

The Taliban are not the Mujahadin. Many former Mujahadin fighters have no option other than to join the Taliban, to refuse would be blasphemy and that carries the death penalty and some severe penalties for the family.

By European standards what is going on south of the Hindu Kush is unacceptable, but the Taliban are not European nor are they carrying out their atrocities in Europe. Similarly they view us as ripe for culling and would probably do so if they got the chance. Does that give us the right to prosecute the fourth crusade?

Ask the French.