Air 2 Air Kills?

[Low and Slow]

Can anyone tell me?

A) How many Air 2 Air kills the RAF have made since 1945. - RAF pilots flying RAF aircraft.. .B) How many Air 2 Air kills the FAA have made since 1945. - FAA pilots flying FAA aircraft.. .C) Any combination of the above. E.g. RAF flying FAA, or vice versa.

I'm grateful for any definitive sources on this. I have contacted AIR HISTORICAL Branch about 4 months ago, but they didn't seem to know. - but I'm sure Jacko Nicko will tell me!

[Jackonicko]

RAF pilots flying RAF aircraft is easy - none except the unacknowledged Javelin kills in the Far East (Indonesian C-130 and (?) Tu-16), and the F-4/Jaguar kill, though there are a number of RAF MiG-killers from the Korean War, mostly flying USAF F-86s, and some RAF pilots obviously got kills in SHARs in '82.

FAA pilots got kills in Korea (in Sea Furies) and in the Falklands. Don't think any exchange blokes got any in USN Panthers or F4U-5Ns in Korea.

[ 18 February 2002: Message edited by: Jackonicko ]</p>

[Archimedes]

Off the top of my head RAF in FAA aircraft - . .Falklands:

Dave Morgan - various figures given from 3 plus one shared to 2 plus one manoeuvre kill plus one on ground

Paul Barton 1982 - opening 'kill' of campaign

John Leeming - one

Tony Penfold - one

FAA in FAA aircraft:

Peter Charmichael - one Mig 15, Korea

Falklands:. .Andy Auld - 2. .Mike Blissett - 1 . .Al Curtiss - 1 . .'Fred' Frederiksen - 1 . .Martin Hale - 1 . .Clive Morrell - 2. .Dave Smith - 2 . .Neil Thomas - 1. .Steve Thomas- have seen his score given as 2 and 3. .'Sharkey' Ward - 3

I suspect that (a) I may owe some of these gentlemen apologies for (a) getting their preferred moniker worng (b) getting their tally wrong and - worst of all (c) perhaps claiming that they were RN when they were RAF (but I think I've got most of them correct).

RAF in other aircraft:

At least one exchange pilot on F-86s claimed a MiG-15

I also seem to recall that an RAF exchange pilot with 77 Squadron RAAF managed to bag a Mig while flying a Meteor 8.

Apologies for the lack of certainty, but like I say, this is off the top of my head. Which is worrying...

[Low and Slow]

Thanks boys. This is damn sight further than I've got so far. Good starting point.. .Cheers

[Archimedes]

L & S,

Some info about post-war kills is in the second volume (more of an addendum, I suppose) of Christopher Shores' Aces High (Grub Street). Some of the Korean kills are also alluded to in the massive first volume (the 1990s edition, not the 1966 one), since they were achieved by chaps who also enjoyed a spot of success in World War 2.

The now defunct 'Wings of Fame' ran a series of articles on the Korean War, including kills - this had all the air 2 air victories listed, and will give you the names of RAF and FAA types who were successful.

I believe that there was one 'kill' by Lightnings (19 or 92 Sq) against a Harrier that wandered off course sans pilot some time in the 1970s.

Also, a completely unsubstantiated tale (as far as I know) - at some point in the later 1960s/early 1970s, a USAF ground crew member 'borrowed' a C-130. Rumour has it that a Hunter from Brawdy/Valley/Chivenor [depends on the rumour] achieved a swift guns kill over the Irish Sea after it was clear that the chap wasn't going to return it. Be interesting to hear if anyone knows anything about this, or whether its a happy hour tale.

[edited for appawling speeling]

[ 18 February 2002: Message edited by: Archimedes ]</p>

[Gen. Bombdabastards]

I seem to remember a Phantom shooting down a Jag over Germany in the 80's

[Whipping Boy's SATCO]

Buccaneer vs. a Cub in the Gulf War?

(OK, I think it may have been a ground kill but, regardless, great footage.)

[ 18 February 2002: Message edited by: Whipping Boy's SATCO ]</p>

[Big Tudor]

Archimedes,

I've heard the tale of the C130 but as you say it varies depending on which mess you happen to be frequenting at the time. Story seems to centre around C130, Hunter and Southern Irish Sea/ Atlantic so perhaps an element of truth.

[OldBonaMate]

Archimedes,

The pilotless Harrier in the '70s was not shot down by anyone although I believe a GAF F104 tried but was unable to stay with the cavortions of the independent minded jet. In fact, when it finally ran out of gas it completed a fairly good glide landing in which a German farm house roof was slightly damaged. The aircraft itself was remarkably well in tact after what it had been through.

The cause of the abandonment was a birdstrike followed by locked surge. There was no procedure at the time to sort this particular problem out so the pilot quite rightly took to the silk. It would appear that the rocket efflux from the ejection was sufficiently disturbing to the intake airflow to clear the surge upon which the engine accelerated back to its original power setting and flew away. There was some concern because the ejection occured over Schleswig-Holstein and the aircraft appeared at one stage to be manoeuvring towards East German airspace.

[Jackonicko]

Flight Lieutenant JM Nicholls (later CAS?) got two in Korea, while Flight Lieutenant Graham Hulse got three and Flight Lieutenants RTF Dickinson, John H Granville White and JHJ Lovell each got one. All were serving as F-86 pilots with USAF units. Five RCAF exchange pilots scored several more (eight?), as did the Aussies in their Meteors (four kills), though I don't believe any of the RAF/RAAF Meteor exchange blokes got one.

RAF exchange officers in Iraq and Jordan were not directly involved in the spats with Israel, and there seem to have been no RAF kills in 1948.

[Low and Slow]

Gold dust jacko. Can I ask your source on this? It strikes me that AIR HISTORICAL Branch might like to take note.

[Gainesy]

The Herc stolen from Mildenhall; May 1969 taken by its crew chief Sgt Paul Meyer while doing engine runs. Mayer was on TDY from Langley AFB & had marital probs back home, was later said to be mentally disturbed. Understand he was a PPL stude in USA. Official line is that he became disorientated when the aircraft went IMC, it crashed in the sea off Alderney. Rumours at the time were that he was shot down by variously: Hunters, Lightnings, USAF F-100s and Frog Navy Etendards/F-8s

Edited to remove brainfart-induced duff gen

[ 19 February 2002: Message edited by: Gainesy ]</p>

[Jackonicko]

There's a USAF Office of Air History or somesuch at Maxwell AFB who published a big lists of Korean kills, and a freelance bod in the USA has republished them 'from his garage'. The info has subsequently been used in Wings of Fame as referred to above, and in Dorr, Lake and Thompson's Korean War Aces book for Osprey (Aircraft of the Aces Vol 4).

I believe Jock Maitland (not on the lists) who looks after the Biggin airshow may also have got one in Korea, while Tim McElhaw may have splashed an Israeli Spit or Mustang back in 47-48.

[ORAC]

Jacko, I think you might find McElhaw was shot down, rather than shooting one down.

<a href="http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/2848/operate1.htm" target="_blank">IAF v RAF</a>

[ 19 February 2002: Message edited by: ORAC ]

[ 19 February 2002: Message edited by: ORAC ]</p>

[Low and Slow]

ORAC. Thanks for the link. Now can I have one that works <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

Jacko: Was the Isreali Aircraft involved an AVIA S199 - Me-109G with a Jumo engine? . .I'm not sure the IAF had Spits in 1947 and I think the Mustangs were much later. I could be wrong though. I'll check with my mate Benni :)

[MarkD]

delete the full stop after the htm at the end and the link then works.

[Jackonicko]

I think Tim McElhaw may have been a one-all, shot down once and shooting down an IDF/AF aircraft once. With regard to the chronology of the S-199, Spit and P-51D I could look it up, if necessary, but don't know off hand!

[Firestreak]

<img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> For info about air-air victories in the Falklands, the best source is "Air War South Atlantic" by Jeffrey Ethell & Alfred Price, a book that tries to sort out the correct stories from both sides.

Ref the C130, Wattisham Lightnings were called upon but the best bet is that an F4 from Bentwaters took it out.

The pilotless Harrier again alerted the Lightnings from Gutersloh but as stated in a previous post, in the best traditions of mud movers it crashed itself!

[Jackonicko]

Beg to differ, Firestreak, the best source for the Falklands is The Falklands Air War published by BARG, an exhaustive spotter-tome which details the history of every airframe used (on both sides) with details of where when and how losses occurred, and with details of virtually every participating pilot.

ARSSE: Think that the RAF's kill-to-kill opportunity ratio is probably much higher than that of almost any other air arm. In other words, where have the RAF had kill opportunities since 1945?

[ 20 February 2002: Message edited by: Jackonicko ]</p>

[jbc2001]

Back when Lightnings still ruled, an acqaintance of mine, who had worked for Defence Sales, showed me a series of pix of a Firestreak on a trailer in a sandbag revetment. The story was that he had to check the reloads for a F55 being used to stop Foxbats from overflying RSAF facilities. Apparently he stopped when one missle took it into its head to go into terminal mode (the target light bulb must have glowed brighter) and blew up. Exit tech on second (unofficial) passport. The pilot was rumoured to be an ex-RAF Wingco - anyone know any details?

[s650588]

RAF (on exchange with RAAF) - Korea - Flt Lt M Scannell in Meteor F8 - shared credit for Mig 15 (along with whole of squadron) - page 31 in Stewart Wilson's "Meteor, Sabre & Mirage in Australian Service" 14 Meteors flew - 3 shot down, 2 Migs also.

RN (on exchange with RAN) - off Sydney - Lt J R T Bluett & Lt P F McNay in Sea Fury's - shared(?) credit for Auster! Took off without pilot - shot down off the coast - page 67 in Wilson's "Sea Fury, Firefly & Sea Venom in Australian Service". This was after an RAAF Wirraway chased it - but the guns froze, and an RAAF Meteor also chased - but the guns jammed. Another Meteor arrived as the Auster was shot down. <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">

[MT Edelstone56]

If I was worried about the investment in Eurofighter a more pertinent question might be how many RAF/RN pilots shot down post 45,in air to air combat.

Think RAF/RN still the second best fighter pilots in the world.

[Low and Slow]

Date Unit Aircraft Pilot Weapon Victim Country
22May48 208 sqn RAF Spitfire McElhaw 20mm Spitfire VC REAF
22May48 208 sqn RAF Spitfire McElhaw 20mm Spitfire VC REAF
7Jan49 6 sqn RAF Tempest B.Spragg 20mm Spitfire FL.9 IDF/AF**


These are 3 kills i didn not know about and nor does the Air Historical Branch. Can anyone confirm these?:confused:

[John Farley]

Jacko, I think you might find McElhaw was shot down, rather than shooting one down.

Thats right by another Spit actually

[ORAC]

The RAF has been responsible for UK AD since 1918.

Result, complete success - including a rather well received performance during the BoB. If that doesn't satisfy you I don't know what will.

And whenever requested to support the RN or Army out of area the RAF has been there. Indonesia, Suez, etc.

And yes, I include the FIs where; leaving out RAF AAR, Elint, MRR, AT and other missions; the RAF provided the carrier based GR3s which undertook all the OAS missions and 25% of the SHar pilots.

It would seem that, in peacetime, the Admirals and the Generals choose to chop aircraft to save tanks, soldiers and ships. The advantage of the RAF is that it focuses on the aircraft. The risk you take in transferring any air assets to the Army and RN is of the same thing happening with the assets either being frittered away, not maintained or upgraded and, eventually, being in their turn surrendered as an offset against things closer to the army/navy heart.

(I believe the RAAF encountered such a problem when it handed over it's SH force to the army - and had to take it back?, perhaps someone can elucidate?).

[Low and Slow]

I recieved this and thought it right to share:

RE: MecElhaw

The first REAF Spitfire to go down was one flown by Flg.Off. Abd al-Rahman
'Inan, shot down by the combined fire from RAF Regiment Bren gunners, Sgt.
Atkinson, and AC Waind of 52 (Rifle) Squadron. The same aircraft was
apparently also hit by Flg.Off Roy Bowie of the 208 Squadron (that's what
McElhaw said in an interview to Cull), but apparently not claimed as shot
down by him. 'Inan's Spitfire came down near the Kibbutz of Dalya, and was
salvaged by the IDF and used as source of spares.

Subsequently, Flg.Off McElhaw (in TZ228) and Flg.Off Hully of the 208 Sqn
took off and established a CAP over their airfield, when the next REAF
attack appeared. On page 144 of "Spitfires over Israel", there is the
following statement by McElhaw:

"We came back from Haifa at full throttle. I saw a single Spit turning over
the airfield and came in behind it; in fact I was going so fast that despite
using coarse pitch to slow down, I had to pull up outside it. It had clear
Egyptian markings and, terrified of precipitating a diplomatic incident, I
called the tower telling them that it was an Egyptian and asking if I could
shoot it down: the CO said something like: "Yes, get him."

Meanwhile, this chum dives for the deck and nips up a narrow valley in the
hills, at about 15 feet, hoping to lose me, I suppose. Well, my excess speed
was so great that I had to cut the throttle to avoid overtaking him. I gave
him three short bursts from close up and he just went straight in. It was
the first time I had ever done any air-to-air firing."

The story continues on page 145:

They raced back to the airfield when warned over the R/T that a second
Spitfire was strafing; McElhaw continued:

"I had barely completed the turn over the airfield when I saw another; I
check his markings - green, white, green - but h just ignores me. I break
away; Les takes a pot at him, then I put in a longish burst. Some bits come
off and down he goes - he made a good bang when he hit the ground as he
still had one bomb on! I think he must have been preoccupied with dropping
his second bomb not to have noticed two Spits up his rear. We patrolled for
an hour more with our eyes extended on stalks but nothing more appeared and
we landed about ten."

[ORAC]

2. B****r all air threat, but a shed load of Helo, OAS, AT etc. Or doesn't that count? Or do only nice shiny medals for aces count?

3. The RAF deployed and flew a couple of squadrons worth of GR3s from the carriers during the war. More than "Some blokes on detachment". They also flew all the OAS missions - and took the casualties - while the SHars were doing the AD. As for the AD, there were also more than "Some blokes on detachment". The RN was only just running back up the FW AD force and a large number of the pilots of the RN squadrons were RAF - of whom several got kills.

4/5. You are being illogical. I say they concentrate on aircraft, you say they don't, then complain about buying 232 aircraft!!

On this point it should also be pointed out that this should be laid more at the door of BoWS and the politicians. In light of certain articles over the last few weeks I also expect a large cut in the order.

Since aircraft bought and paid for don't bother the unions and MPs much, it should also be noted that the front line strength of the RAF has been cut by more than 50% since the order was placed. If you take the period 90-98, the RAF manpower shrank 38%, the RN 30% and the army only 30%.

As for the comment about costs. The biggest factor in any budget is manpower costs. The RAF is extremely manpower efficient for the power it brings to bear. The cost of hotels (if and when used), is miniscule against the cost of deploying a carrier. The point has been made on the latest detachment that the cost of providing admin/transport/catering staff and equipment (which an army formation has organically) to support the aircrew/groundcrew is far in excess of the hotel bill for living on the local economy in a hotel. But, in truth, I don't think it is actually the cost which annoys you.

The army has a very small procurement budget (The majority of it's budget goes on wages, because it is manpower intensive). To say that in only spends 20% of an already small budget on air assets makes my point. e.g. The original order for the AH-64 of 140+ was eventually cut back to 67, which is far too small and has lead to the army to renege on it's commitment to put any aboard the carriers for deployment. (Also please note it is the RAF chinooks which are being used at the moment because the RN cannot support the needs of the operation with their knackered Commando Sea Kings).

7. The RAF were pulled out of the low countries because of the losses they were taking. Please look at the RAF casualty figures. I think you find, for example, that the Battle squadrons died to a man. If they had not been, they would not have been available to fight the BoB. It would also have been irrelevant to the result on the ground. The army, no doubt, would have frittered them away and stripped the UK of cover. Another good reason for having an independant air force.

Air power is not just an adjunct to the battlefield. They army tries to employs air assets like a hand grenade or tank and wastes all the advantages of their flexibility. I have read with great interest the AAC concept of operations of the AH-64, employing flexibility, data-links etc. I hope they succeed in being allowed to implement it. But I have my doubts.

[steamchicken]

On the subject of Sgt. Meyer, at the time "Private Eye" published a lengthy feature in which they retold the story much as related here, but with the important difference that according to them, Meyer was "persuaded, after being addressed by his commanding officer and others, to activate a selfdestruct device fitted to all aircraft"! Aside from this, they also claimed that the incident "showed up glaring faults in the much-vaunted USAF" and seemed not to have realised that the C-130 is a transport aircraft. Incredibly they still considered this article worthy, twenty years on, of being part of their 30th Anniversary review book. BS factor high...

[Flatus Veteranus]

The one time the Army really needed the RAF they bu**ered off. If you don't believe me, then I suggest you read about France 1940/Dunkirk" - Aarse

Aarse, I have taken your advice.

The Meuse, 13/14 May 40

“…But now the French High Command, thoroughly alarmed, called for a maximum effort against the German pontoon bridges at Sedan and the armoured columns approaching them. All the AASF bombers available (77) were accordingly prepared and 71 actually took off to attack between 1500 and 1600 hours on May 14. Some 250 allied fighters were there to give them protection, a figure which is impressive until one notes that the Germans had more than three times as many flying in that sector. And, as ever, there was the “flak”. With that extraordinary organizational brilliance which characterized the whole (German!) Sedan operation, Guderian had somehow disentangled his flak batteries from the columns still stretching across the Ardennes and rushed them forward so that they now ringed the pontoon bridges with an imposing concentration of fire power. What with this and the fighters, the result was that, out of the 71 sorties, 40 (or 44) aircraft were lost, a total of 56% (or 62%). The AASF fighters lost 5 Hurricanes, and another 11 were lost by the Air Component (against a claim of only 12 enemy aircraft destroyed). “For the RAF the Meuse that day was an unimaginable hell, a real Valley of death from which few returned.” No 218 Sqn alone lost 10 out of its 11 Battles. The RAF’s total losses for the day were 71, making it a “black day, indeed.” (The Right of the Line – John Terraine.)

What John Terraine did not mention was that this catastrophe cost the RAF the flower of the pre-war regular air force.

Dunkirk

“So No 11 Group gave battle over Dunkirk and the Channel. It was, effectively, a seven-day contest, with the honours going to the Luftwaffe on two of those days – May 27 (the first full day) and June 1. The distinctive character of Operation DYNAMO was settled straight away. The surrender of the Belgians, a retreat by the French which brought Dunkirk itself under German artillery fire, and above all a massed attack by the Luftwaffe on the port and town, all combined to make 27 May a day of crisis. It was on this day that the decision was taken to conduct the main evacuation from the neighbouring beaches (though the port was never entirely eliminated). Stretched to its limits, No 11 Group now faced the insoluble contradiction of its task: Park had 16 squadrons available for the battle and with these he was expected to provide continuous air cover for the beachhead, which could only be done by outfighting the Luftwaffe. There was thus a direct conflict between the demands of continuity and strength.

The only possible (and evidently unsatisfactory) solution to this dilemma – which otherwise threatened to see the destruction of Fighter Command’s squadrons in detail – was to increase the numbers of aircraft in the RAF’s patrols, but to make these less frequent. The hazards of this policy were seen on June 1, when the Luftwaffe, taking advantage of gaps in the RAF’s patrolling, sank 31 ships, forcing the decision to restrict evacuation to the hours of darkness. The result, of course, was a very sharp drop in the numbers of men brought away. Furthermore, the policy of the stronger, but less frequent, patrols was the cause of a persistent and sad misunderstanding.

For the ordinary soldier, air support is the support that he can see: the fighter formation driving the enemy away, the bomb line ahead of him, the supply drop. An air battle fought out of sight is a battle that never happened; attacks on enemy communications or distant assembly points are equally non-events. At Dunkirk the cry went up, “Where was the RAF?” The soldiers were not to be persuaded by argument or statistics; they “never saw a British fighter” – and that was that. Feelings were very bitter between the Services. Thus Spitfire pilot Alan Deere (no 54 Squadron), having been shot down some fifteen miles from Dunkirk, made his way through the confusion of the town to the mole, where destroyers were taking off soldiers in the teeth of Luftwaffe attacks. As he tried to board one, he was stopped by a Major, who told him: “For all the good you chaps seem to be doing, you might as well stay on the ground.” When he finally did get aboard he was greeted in stony silence by a crowd of other army officers. “ Why so friendly?” he asked, “what have the RAF done?” “That’s just it” someone said, “what have they done?” It was a typical case.

It need hardly be said that when we do look at the statistics of the event, they tell a very different story. During the nine days’ battle, Coastal Command recce aircraft flew 171 sorties, Bomber Command 651, and Fighter Command no fewer than 2,739 directly concerned with DYNAMO…The losses tell the story…a table in the Air Historical Branch narrative shows that in the nine days the home-based RAF lost a total of 145 aircraft (excluding casualties to those borrowed from the Fleet Air Arm). Of this total Fighter Command accounts for 99, of which 42 were Spitfires. Churchill, no doubt alarmed at the bad feeling towards the RAF, which was being fed by gloomy tales from BEF survivors, told the House of Commons on June 4:

“Wars are not won by evacuations. But there was a victory inside this deliverance, which should be noted. It was gained by the Air Force.”

It was firmly believed at the time that the Germans lost 262 aircraft over Dunkirk…but as the Official History shows, this claim was greatly exaggerated: the true figure was 132. This still gives an advantage of 33 “kills” to Fighter Command…and when the losses to the other Commands involved are taken into account, we see that it was in fact the RAF which suffered most severely at Dunkirk” (The Right of the Line – John Terraine).

It is not only the RAF which has suffered the Grunt’s whingeing. I was in the Army Dept at the time of the Falklands campaign and the fashionable “joke” was that the Carrier group should not receive the Falklands medal but the Burma Star, because they stayed so far to the East of the battle zone.