View Full Version : IFR noob

19th Oct 2009, 13:35
Hello People ,

I just finished my first instrument rating flight test (and passed) and when I look back now, although I may have learnt the 'procedures' well, there are a few things not very clear to me, and need help. Allot of my flying was in controlled airspace and we always ended up getting radar vectors, hence my doubts-

1)What would I do when the take off minima is equal to landing minima and prevailing conditions are at T/O/LDG minima AND there is no published SID??example being VOBG(Bangalore,India).

2)What when there is no published STAR, what kind of a transition has to be followed from the en-route structure to the approach structure?-especially when there is no DME arc

3)The procedure turn is out of phase with the hold(hold INB195, teardrop outbound-021)-given as an example approach plate in the 'INSTRUMENT RATING MANUAL'-pilot books(New Zealand)

Is it actually ok to play around with the procedures to suit your needs(as suggested by other threads on PPRuNe)?

No 'book' seems to explain what I want.

19th Oct 2009, 13:39
Also, would like to mention that I have 220hrs, so I am open to any sidetracking of the topic, would love to do with more knowledge.

Wyle E Coyote
19th Oct 2009, 18:28
1) the departure procedure depends on which airway you're joining. I haven't seen the plates, but on Jeps when there's no SID plate, the departure procedures are written on the bottom of the airfield plate.

2) Do the full procedure from overhead. Don't descend below MSA until established on initial approach.

3) do what is essentially a hold entry to reverse your direction. ie, overhead the beacon, parallel the hold track (or follow it if you like, but it makes the reversal turn tighter), and do a reversal turn to intercept the outbound track before the beacon.

I don't know about 'playing around' with procedures, but make sure you know your MSA at all times - especially if moving between sectors. Then if it all goes wrong, you still can't hit anything.

19th Oct 2009, 20:09
Have a look at PPL/IR (http://www.pplir.org/). It's an European Group, but IR flying is pretty international, and there is a wealth of information and expertise available.

20th Oct 2009, 01:03
If TO/LD minina are close you need to start thinking TO alternates.
Quite right there is normally info on the SID STAR somewhere but if they have radar, vectors would be likely.
Airlines also can have Engine out emergency turn procedures to keep you clear of terrain seperate to the standard Jepp/Aerad etc but I know that wont help you in your MEP.
In my opinion the IR is a great course but very geared to just passing the test. It left alot of open questions but then it is a huge subject.

20th Oct 2009, 05:03
I have experience from uncontrolled fields (non-radar) in Sweden and heavily controlled airports in USA. Depending on where you go, you can find a big variety of designs.

1) Smaller airports may not have SID. They may have:

a) In USA, ODP (Obstacle Departure Procedure) which is quite similar to SID and connects to en route airway structure.

b) An omni-directional departure, could sound like: "Climb straight ahead with MNM 280 ft/NM (4.5%) to MNM turning ALT 700 ft. Continue climb to appropriate MSA." Then off you go to next waypoint on your flight plan.

2) If no STAR, there could be other ways to connect to the approach:

a) Sometimes an airway may pass via the IAF to the approach, just exit the airway and enter the approach. Prepare thoroughly before flight so you know which altitudes to use.

b) Sometimes a Locator (NDB) may serve as the IAF for both an ILS, LLZ or NDB appr. - which is off all airways. File the flight plan so ATC knows how you want to go and when within reach of the NDB request clearance direct to the NDB. Once established in the hold/racetrack descend from MSA to initial altitude.

3) Not exactly sure if I understand what you are asking for, the hold won't take you to the runway, the approach procedure will. Stay in the hold at or above Min. Holding Alt. until you are ready to start the approach and follow tracks/altitudes as depicted on the chart.

In non-radar, high terrain the MORA/MSA as appropriate may take you to the IAF at way too high an altitude to start the approach. Then you have to descend in the hold first.

I've seen different course reversal procedures, some have been very clear on tracks to follow and timing. Other say "stay within 10 nm" and then you can choose between the 80/260 or 45/180 at your discretion.

If you are at any time uncertain about your position, or outside the protected area of the approach - climb to MSA!