WHAT A SHAME

[SACSmith]

Isn't it a shame that we blue-jobbers are all afraid to air our views publicly? I thought the RAF wanted people who could think for themselves, had their own minds and weren't afraid to go against the grain. If I wanted to be a mind-less drone that just blindly followed orders, I'd have joined the Army. How wrong I was/am. I've seen so many people (including myself) who have tried to fight the system (not for the sake of it), and lost, and their 'career's' are destroyed by their 'superiors' via the annual confidential report. People should be able to state their views (as long as they don't personally insult anyone) without the fear of their promotion prospects going out of the window. I've had the privilege to meet some maverick RAF men/women who have some backbone and have not been afraid to challenge convention, but they now might as well PVR. I personally will be submitting my PVR papers this year, before my spirit is completely crushed by the system.

A 6 year SAC adminer. . <img src="confused.gif" border="0"> <img src="frown.gif" border="0"> <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

[Cooperman]

You don't work for Admin Guru do you? I'd understand your upset if you did. :)

[Molesworth Hold]

I’m surprised that you haven’t been inundated with replies telling you to go and sort out some travel claims and stop being a sad tw@t. If you decide to PVR as some kind of protest against your annual appraisal,I can assure you that no one will give a stuff. You must be extremely naïve to believe that openly expressing contrary opinions will help your career prospects, in the RAF or any other organisation.

I would suggest the following options:. .1. Get posted, play station sport, get on the NAFFI committee, run a charity event, brown nose around your boss and keep you mouth shut.. .2. Don’t buy a video; don’t buy a car, save all your money and PVR. (Taken from the Midland Radar guard hut circa 1989)

It’s worth remembering that this is a Military Aircrew forum, I’m a very blunt Air Traffic assistant who lurks, to be enlightened and entertained.

You don’t also go by the name of Admin Guru, do you?

[Taffmerlin]

I understand your frustrations, but why give up! do something about it. If you feel the system stinks. Go for your commission and try and change the system from within. I know many engineering officers who would not have made Cpl ( due to options for change etc, or maybe I am too kind), but have now got quite a healthy career. What you must remeber is that everybody is sensitive to critism, therefore you may have to improve your delivery technique.

Good Luck with the future which ever path you choose.

[Scud-U-Like]

As Taffmerlin suggests, it ain't always what you say, but the way that you say it. If you think the Service has got it wrong on a particular policy matter, why not send a letter to the RAF News? If published, not only will your letter come to the attention of the entire RAF brass (who, contrary to what you may read in this hallowed forum, are the guys who run the mob), but you will also keep a senior officer gainfully employed for a day while he drafts an official reply <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> Provided you make a calm, considered and well presented argument, it will almost certainly be published.

If the problem is more local in nature, then, take a deep breath, draft a memo (same principles as aforesaid letter apply) and send it up your chain of command.

Unfortunately, if you are just one of life's rebels, then the RAF probably is not for you. It is worth remembering that in any field of employment, you are always going to be answerable to someone, whose views will not always accord with your own. Sometimes, you just have to bite the bullet and get on with it. This can be particularly galling if you work for a complete to55er, but that's life matey.

Oh, and remember, this is a public forum, so (much to the consternation of the purists) you can air your views here on any subject you choose :)

[ 17 February 2002: Message edited by: Scud-U-Like ]</p>

[6nandneutral]

When you are asked or told to do something $hitty just smile and do it, then later either on your own or with someone you can trust with the emphasis on trust talk it over and you can slag off whoever has upset you till your hearts content, it will make you feel better. I found out that if you speak your mind even when you are right, it will more than likely go against you. So basically bite the bullet and just play the game.

[Blacksheep]

I say Smithy, its just not on, letting the side down like that. We true Blacksheep are made of sterner stuff! Dish out the criticism, take the brickbats and keep on working. You won't get anywhere but if you were a true Blacksheep you'd know you were right and you wouldn't care, you'd just get on with it. PVR? What kind of a sheepish characteristic is that? Perhaps the Royal Air Force really isn't for you, but true Blacksheep don't wimp out. We stand on our principles and either desert or mutiny. Get a grip man and do as Scud-You-Like suggests. The true satisfaction of Blacksheeping is that you can force the incompetent to respond and in doing so one hopes that they will find enlightenment when they research their reply.

Get on with it Smith, never mind the six year crap, sign on for twelve and try to really make a difference. Per Ardua and all that...

**********************************. .Through difficulties to the cinema

[Chilli Monster]

6 years - stil wet behind the ears! Try 15 and still feel frustrated!

I'm afraid in your position mate you are one of the smallest cogs in a big machine. If you want to change things then you have to bide your time, learn the hoops to jump through to move on up and then do something. But be under no illusion - the military as far as you're concerned is just that - a hoop jumping exercise. There are those above who have seen the likes of you several times before and have jumped on them too. Them's the facts <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> The Military is no place for idealism <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

But if it's any consolation my move outside is now earning me more than double what I earned inside - with a lot more job satisfaction :)

Molesworth - drop me a line - do I know you? (Ex AATC 80-95)

CM

[SACSmith]

Thanks for you advice everyone, and no I dont work for Admin Guru. <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

[SACSmith]

Thanks Arrse, and nice web-site. There is a lot of constructive advice up there, but essentially, I have to conform or get out, play the game, let the bull-Sh*t go over my head, and play my part in the generation of air power, and act as a force for good in the world etc etc etc..... I've actually got all the paperwork ready for applying for a commission. I figure, what the hell, if I don't try, I'll never know. Admin Sec looks like the natural way to go. Being an ex-ranker, I probably won't get past Flt Lt, but at least I won't be given sh*tty monotonous repetitive mundane task by a flight sergeant. <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

[StopStart]

No, you'll be given them Sqn Ldrs.

[Megaton]

Who're given them by wg cdrs.

[Thirteen-Twelve]

FIFO

[NOODY]

SAC Smith. . .With regards to your remarks about the army in your opening post... you pompus ass.. .I spent 2 years pretending to be a infantry platoon commander before joing the RAF. My experience of both services is that i never, in 8 years, met an admin anything from sac to Wg Co who showed the leadership and managemnet skills that were demonstrated by many of the very switched on l/cpls and cpls i worked with.

So a 6 year sac adminer.....good going. What a shame the airforce dosn't have more 'mavericks' like yourself to save us all.

Talent rises to the top. I can only guess that your present prediciment speaks for itself.

Enjoy serving those burgers.

[Jump jump John]

Bear in mind that scum also has an interesting habit of rising to the top (just look at a water barrel). .No analogies drawn with anyone here, cos I don't know you, but do you know anyone like that?!

[NOODY]

touche,. .had the pleasure of lunch with a certain aoc 11 gp who's name couldn't be uttered in the bar. Yes many times did i sit in the crewroom and all we talked about was the tossers getting promoted etc etc etc. In many way's that is why i am a civie now!. .The original post however contained not a single positive thread. It talked about fighting the system and mavericks! My experience, all be it not a lifetime , was that the best Sen Officers / SNCO's all shared the talent of natural leadership and the ability to get things done both with and without the sytems help.

The force's offer the chance off achievement to everyone. Anyone who want's to blame the system for their lack of success is just copping out.

[SACSmith]

Spoilt Tom, sorry if I've caused you offence, I worked with the Army for 3 years, and that was my experience of them, which obviously differs from yours, but then this is a debating forum, so opinions are bound to vary. <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

[Admin Guru]

I think there is a distinction to be drawn between reasoned arguments for changes, and a merely windmilling in on an ad hoc "this is rubbish" basis. Adminers should know better than this; where as it seems to be the aircrew perogative to slate something that doesn't directly improve their standard of living, us in the admin branch realise the channels that need to be gone through to make changes.. .I agree, that those in the army are more used to taking orders rather than giving them.

For all you doubters; Cooperman take note, I have no SAC Smith working for me. Just for the record, my staff are highly motivated by me and my drive for perfection and there is little talk of PVR. Also, I believe that SAC Smith is possibly a made up name.

Ed Winchester, feel free to not come back and criticise me again. For those interested, my new Forum will come up next week.

[SACSmith]

Dear Admin Guru, I can assure you I am an SAC adminer, and if you read my reply to Fay in 'ONE TO ONE WITH CAS', you'll see I've had a change of heart. Are there any vacancies in your section?? And why are you so........ popular within this cyber-debating type place?

[Megaton]

If it was between AG and SACSmith, I know which one I would rather have as sqn adj!

[uncle peter]

admin guano

to paraphrase python - its tw @ ts like you wot cause unrest.

your naivete is breathtaking. the proper channels to which you refer are quite simply ar$e. after 15 years in the service, following proper channels with suggestions of improvements leads to dilution up the chain, until it reaches the level where there is no problem whatsoever.

your comments about the army are arrogant in the extreme. I, personally, would rather serve with any member of the army than you. You would learn something about professionalism if you spent any time with them.

as regards your comments about your highly motivated staff, i put to you the monkey up a tree syndrome, where those up the tree look down to see smiling faces, whereas those looking up the tree can only see @r$eholes. i suspect the peter principle is applicable in this instance also.

i think there is quite a good case in this instance for enforced euthanasia.

best wishes :)

[SACSmith]

Thanks Douglas and Ham Fisted, but I'm starting to feel like a pawn in some elaborate grudge match between Admin Guru and the rest of the RAF. <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

[KayGridley]

Join the Navy... problem solved <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">

[SACSmith]

Join the Navy? Have you been on one of those floaty things? I've never seen such cramped, claustrophobic conditions, how anyone could enjoy operating in such an environment is beyond me. Plus you have to share rooms with people, who you may not like, and where can you go to get away from it all? Jump over-board? No thanks. As I said before, thanks to the replies I've had from this thread, it has made me realise that it aint all that bad afterall. <img src="cool.gif" border="0">

[Ed Winchester]

SAC Smith,

You're right there - it's a great life in the Forces. Rememember, the grass might be greener an the other side, but that's probably a result of the amount of manure thrown down from above.

Admin Guru,

Thanks for giving me the option of not replying, you're a true sport. Interesting that I should be singled out by your esteemed self (on two threads, no less), given the number of posters who have shown less restraint and just called a spade a spade.

Feel free to expand on which criticism irked you so much, so I can hone it further.

Meanwhile, let me just clear something up for you. Your 'new forum' would probably not make it on to this bulletin board. 'Military Aircrew' is a forum. 'WHAT A SHAME' is a thread. This is a reply. If you are happy to dish it out, don't go all http://www.stopstart.btinternet.co.uk/sm/gaga.gif when you get it back.

[D-IFF_ident]

If you think you can't have an opinion read here:

ARTICLE 10

1.Everyone has the right to freedom of expression. this right shall include freedom to hold opinions and to receive and impart information an ideas without interference by public authority and regardless of frontiers. This article shall not prevent States from requiring the licensing of broadcasting, television or cinema enterprises.

2.The exercise of these freedoms, since it carries with it duties and responsibilities, may be subject to such formalities, conditions, restrictions or penalties as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society, in the interests of national security, territorial integrity or public safety, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, for the protection of the reputation or the rights of others, for preventing the disclosure of information received in confidence, or for maintaining the authority and impartiality of the judiciary.

. .And if you think that Big Brother can track you through this site, read here:

ARTICLE 8

1.Everyone has the right to respect for his private and family life, his home and his correspondence.

2.There shall be no interference by a public authority with the exercise of this right except such as is in accordance with the law and is necessary in a democratic society in the interests of national security, public safety or the economic well-being of the country, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others.

[keiysersaucy]

So spoilt tom - anyone who complains about their lack of success is copping out? that is why you are a civvy now? That is why you can comment about service themes now? that is why you tried the army for three years before the RAF? Copping out? you would know about that. I think the shut up or your copping out mentality you display coupled with the do as I say not as I do ethos is exactly why SAC Smith is leaving this joke of an organisation

[SACSmith]

Kiersaucy....... what a speech &lt;claps&gt;. I think you've put spoilt Tom well and truly in his place. <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> :)

[Mr C Hinecap]

SAC - I'd have to take issue with something in your 1st post here - don't fight the system, use the system. I'm not someone who blindly follows the rules - they are there for guidance and trust me, it is far more fun when you use them like that. Yes, there are things I'd love to change about the RAF, but I accept that something as big as we are (not compared to what we were) you're never going to agree with it all. Find the good bits & the good people - they are in the most unusual places - and enjoy what you can out of it. Here endeth the lesson. There - I feel better. Now, where is that AG gimp...... <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">

[NOODY]

Copping out.......mmmmm

Mr Sauzy, i would never work for an orginisation i thought was a joke! who's copping out here?

Didn't get tired of the army mate, got offered the chance to fly! I'm not the one blaming the raf for my lack of promotion/oppurtunities. I quite understood and accepted that i would never make wg co without doing staff crap and being nice to blunties. Can't argue with that. However I can look back to my time in the RAF with a huge degree of pride and satisfaction. I got to achieve my childhood dreams. Having spent 8 years having a ball i decided i'd rather earn twice as much doing half the work. If thats your idea of copping out then guess your right!

My decision to leave was nothing to do with the 'system' or my promotion prospects. The Mrs wanted a better standard of life and as i already had the leather jacket and watch i left. Yeah knowing that the raf had it's fair share of tossers who would end my career overnight made the decision easier. However i worked with considerably more talented and exceptional people on my 2 squadrons, air and groundcrew, than i've met anywhere else since.

You would both do well to read and absorb superstackers post.

Achieve or leave.

[ 23 February 2002: Message edited by: spoilt tom ]

[ 23 February 2002: Message edited by: spoilt tom ]

[ 24 February 2002: Message edited by: spoilt tom ]</p>

[anytimebaby]

The only thing that makes this organization a joke, is the amount of influence and power awarded to the less capable who walk amongst us. Those who don't actually strap a rocket to their backs once or twice a day and put their butts on the line. . .If those people would (or could) only perform their small (but occasionally significant) roles efficiently and professionally and not constantly whinge about the fact that "My job is just as important as yours (doh)!", maybe those of us actually doing the job would stay and put the Air back into Royal Air Force(!!??!)

Spoilt Tom was bang on, it's about time someone was, any surprise sur-f*****g-prise it took a ex-fighter mate to say it! The rest of you are just peeved that you don't have the choices some of us have - bit late to whinge now, you should've thought about that when you were at school

Nice one Tom - hope you don't bend your Speedbird as often as you bent your cars!!

<img src="mad.gif" border="0">

[opso]

Unfortunately, that attitude of 'I've burnt holes in the skies so I know everything better than anyone else in the RAF' is exactly that displayed by 2 senior officers who are often mentioned in the Chinook thread. It's an attitude that has served the RAF badly for a very long time. <img src="frown.gif" border="0">

I hope that you made it on to Harriers or Jags, because your team building skills make you poorly equipped to get the maximum effectiveness out of other types.

[NOODY]

Opso.. . . .A rather innacurate picture of anytimebaby dear chap. He won't show you but he's got a nice sword that he was given for being rather good at team building and leadership. In fact since he started as an airman and ended up doing the job/jobs that most AD mates would give their right bollock for he should be a role model for all the airman in the RAF that want to go out and achieve something. In fact the last time i had the honour of flying with anytime he was leading the biggest m'fkr package i ever saw and did it with a style and humour that from your post i can only guess you will never understand or be capable of.

Anytime, nice to see your still alive! Allways.

[ 24 February 2002: Message edited by: spoilt tom ]</p>

[opso]

Good for him - and I hope he displays it proudly somewhere appropriate. But on an anonymous board, you can only assess poeple's attitudes from their posts. (As you have accurately got me pegged as a style-free and humourless individual.)

Anytimebaby's post certainly comes across as doused with the arrogant 'prima donna' attitude that has not helped the management or image of the RAF for a significant time. I do not, nor would not, suggest that all jobs are equal within any organisation, but neither would I say that unless you're a FJ mate, your job in the RAF is predominently insignificant and that you are either incapable or unwilling to do it. Anytimebaby does however say exactly that and whether he meant it that way or not, it is an attitude surprisingly frequently held by the FJ hierarchy (which is also the majority of the RAF hierarchy) despite having only limited validity.

By the way, whilst anyone that climbs the dungheap successfully must have some admirable qualities, but it doesn't guarantee what they are. Just ask anyone who knew TCC - JT to Wg Cdr, but still a ******!

[Scud-U-Like]

Have to agree with opso on this one, Anytimebaby. Your attitude sucks.

(Edited for expletive deletion)

[ 24 February 2002: Message edited by: Scud-U-Like ]</p>

[sleeper]

...

[The Motley Fool]

SACSmith,

If you have been wronged on your F6000 then simply use the chain of command and issue a QR1000 Redress of Complaint. If you have tried this line and failed then write to your MP who may raise a PQ in the house or he may write to the under secretary of state for defence on your behave. Visit your MP at his surgery and discuss the matter.

On the subject of Commissioning, you sound like an ok chap so you haven't got a hope in hell. Remember there is a test simply put do you have the C's or the S's in your character -

Co-operative. .Compliant. .Considerate etc

or

Self-centered. .Selfish. .Stupid. .Self-serving

If your an S man then you don't know the first thing about Honesty, Loyalty & Integrity and you are ideal commissioning material.

[6nandneutral]

SAC Smith. .Question, why didn't you fill in your 'Comments by Subject Individual' box on your assessment form?, that's what it is there for. Or did you ? and if so what did you say? At least you now have the facility to officially comment on your annual assessment, and that was not how it used to be. So if you did't use it last time you know what to do next year.

[Admin Guru]

anytimebaby. .It is comments like yours that make me want to start another Forum along the lines of 'Whinging Aircrew, still hitting back.' However, for PC reasons I am reluctant to do so. I am amazed at your provocative and unsubstantiated claims. What do you mean... "it takes a fighter pilot.." Has it ever occured to you that not all of the hard working and professional admin staff ever even wanted to be pilots? Or that some suffered under the eyesight ruling? Was your profile (the clue being in the fact this is your first post) created as a windup in between Eastenders and Millionaire?

SAC Smith - sorry, no vacancies although you sound highly motivated. Bear in mind there is no grudge between the RAF and I; some have just taken longer than others to see the sense in my Forums.. .JJ John - why do you continue to unleash your drivel onto these Forums? Get some time in.

Ed Winchester - again feel free to exercise your right not to reply to my post. However I found your sentence "This is a reply" particularly informative. I'm sure that my fellow PPruners were extremely grateful for that explanation.. .I can take banter aswell as the next guy, after all I've spent more than enough time around the chaps in SSS who like to dish it out!

uncle peter. .Your comments concern me greatly. If the proper channels are complete arse, then exactly how do you advise going about things? If you see them in a bad light, then surely they need changing for the better. I shudder to think how you would go about business if this is your view of official procedures.

Ham Phisted. .Many thanks for the support and offer of job as your sqn adj. Maybe if my Nav cross over doesn't work out I can move your way!

[SACSmith]

6nandneutral, first of all, I've had some drinks, so bear with me. I did fill out the reply section of my F6000, but as you well know, you have to play the game. I said something along the lines of "This is a fair and balanced report, and the 1st RO has encouraged me to excel. I will strive to do better". If the promotion board see me whinging, they'll immediately cast my report aside like a piece of rubbish. Despite my shift in attitide from my initial thread, I like to think I have enough sense to know that on my F6000 I should be the 'token SAC'. <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

[NOODY]

admin guru,

it's post like yours that make me remember why i wanted to take a shotgun down shq and unload it until all i could hear was adminers begging for mercy. If you had half the witt a first tourist aircrew mate had you be oc digby by now and then we'd be able to treat you with the pity you deserve. You sad talentless loser. I would rather serve burgers in the naffi than have you work for me (as you would have due to my gd superiority) in front of anyone i cared about.

Anytimebaby............nice fist post, even if it was a wind up. How do you spend all the loa mate. Do the blunties there call you sir and salute nice like. Apparently admin guru never fancied a real job and spent his childhood years dreaming of being king of the 1771. Wish we'd perform'd so badly at biggin as to get an admin sec courses.

Question.. why dosn't the mod make all admin sec post's staffed by civies( i know that it already appears they are) thus that the front line staff in the raf, the atc/aircrew/engineers/regiment etc, could at least be served by a someone who made no pretense at being in the military.

SAC Smith/admin guru, my excuse for taking an interst in this site is that i was ,for a short time at least, military aircrew. Why are you two bluejobs wasting space on this site? Complete the travel claims, issue the aircrew retention bonuses and be thankfull of the pityfull jobs you have.

To those i may have offended, ram it , i'm pissed.

[ 27 February 2002: Message edited by: spoilt tom ]</p>

[KD]

" I was , for a short time at least , military aircrew "

Oh , so that`s why you are the authority on such matters !

As for your Gun-ho SHQ thoughts save them for the therapist mate . Admin Guru may come across as having some odd ideas but he doesn`t flash up like you have . And personally , the guy although Admin , can be a bit handy outside the clubs at 2 am if you know what I mean.

He may be a bluntie , but he`s one of us . Ram it yourself

[ 27 February 2002: Message edited by: KD ]</p>

[Admin Guru]

Spoilt Tom - With such a single minded view of anybody Non-Aircrew, you must be a joy to work with. Wait till you get to the private sector and have to deal with people rather than just playing with yourself in cockpit.. . [quote] Be thankful for the pityful jobs you have <hr></blockquote>. .Again I actually find this one quite funny. You show such a blatant disregard for other branches of the RAF it is pitiful. For all those adminers who actually joined to be non-aircrew, I can only apologise on your behalf Tom. I again reaffirm my point, not everybody joins the RAF to fly.. .Hope your next claim gets bounced back to you Tom, then maybe you can go to SHQ and introduce yourself to your helpful admin staff, Im sure they would love to meet you! <img src="eek.gif" border="0">

[SACSmith]

Spoilt Tom, I enter this web-site because I find it entertaining, informative and it's interesting to see people's views on a wide range of matters, whether they be aircrew related or otherwise. I think you'll find that the PPrune gods are not particularly bothered that non-aircrew frequent this site and I think it adds to it's richness, in terms of diversity (see "is it time to make this forum a closed one?". I can express any opinion I like, and furthermore, I can comment on a particular thread if I choose to do so. Whether my comments are interesting or valid is neither here nor there, I have as much right as you to be a member of PPrune, and there's nothing you can say/do/think that will alter that fact. You can rest assured that if I worked in allowances flight, and you had submitted a claim, there would be a strong possibility that your F1771 would go straight to the bottom of my in-tray. Perhaps then you would appreciate administrative support, rather than being a bigoted, dogmatic, intolerant, narrow-minded, blinkered, non-team player. :)

[anytimebaby]

What a mess!!

I may have come over 'arrogant', but my message has been missed. It was the power and authority awarded to people not actually flying the planes, that annoys a lot of aircrew. Not, as appears to be the understanding, all non-aircrew!!

More importantly however, the reaction i received just typifies the bluntie mentality of being on the defensive, they can say what they like and anything fast jet aircrew say is bigoted or whingeing - we only whinge about people not doing their jobs, people not being goal oriented - just lunch break oriented. Sure plenty of people aren't like that, but then they don't pi** us off.

Finally,once again Spoilt Tom hit the nail on the head with his remarks. He has already moved to the outside world, flies his big civvie jet as a part of a big team, who are goal oriented, don't whinge and, like Nike say, Just Do It.

Keep on trucking Tom.

[Mowgli]

There's a lot of dirty washing going on here boys/girls. In my experience, the majority of admin people are well motivated and share a common objective of supporting the people doing the job at the coal face.

The majority of aircrew appreciate the support they receive and are courteous when dealing with the admin support people. Unfortunately, there will always be examples where this hasn't been the case, from both sides. Therein lies the problem: I said "sides". All should remember that they are in the same team.

I found that if I treated the support people with respect and courtesy, I generally got a good service. The system is often confusing to aircrew: what to claim for, how to claim etc. The adminers sometimes were probably too snowed under to explain it all, but those individuals who went the extra mile to help were worth their weight in gold. The "system" did seem to create its own problems, and I often left SHQ non the wiser, with the impression that if I didn't know it then that's my problem.

Arrogant pilots spoil it for the rest of us who don't deserve the preconceived ideas about pilots created by a few who had behaved inappropriately. There is a lot of pressure on aircrew, and sometimes the pressure can affect their behavior, but that's no excuse.

I'm not in your team anymore, but to those reading who still are, I suggest you don't burn your bridges with each other.

[SACSmith]

Good one Mowgli. <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

[Terry Rumble]

Anytime, I'm 100% with you Baby!!

RTB'd from the land of Camels and Shower bags last week, and this latest det' only proved how much you are correct.. .First push into Oman Great! Scribblies couldn't do enough for you. Second push and they've taken over the place and flying and aircrew are just a pain in the arse and inconvenience.

First day there now taken up with filling in this form, signing that form, checking kit Blah!! despite it all having been done at homeplate at least twice before we departed!. .Mowglis comments about aircrew being under stress, excuses for attitude etc. are typical of a modern scribbly, so forget them.. .When he screws up, it means no beans for tea! (or no plates as was our case!) when you or I screw up, it's often a trip skywards, to that big squadron in the sky!. .I'm off soon, hopefully to a company that still puts flying aeroplanes as the number one goal. One day people will see the light and understand that the aim of the air force is to fly aeroplanes first and foremost and complete the mission! Some people are under the impression that CCS, AFT, IRT, Blah are more important, and seem to put that first - crap.. .Power to the flt deck!

[NOODY]

Ah......... Admin gimp and Sac sick,

did you read any of my posts.

Unless you are both civvies then you won't be holding up any of my expense claims!

Here's a shocker for you, my expenses are now paid automatically into my pay at the end of the month based on where i go and how much i fly. On the few occasions there are errors all i have to do is have a chat with our "flightcrew admin girls", magic pure magic, and it gets sorted straight away. No hassle, no forms, no attitude.

My job is not to kill anyone and make the company money. Their job is to make my life as easy as possible, which includes ensuring i am paid every penny i'm due, so i can get on with mine.

Now the chaps who do the flying in the RAF deserve the same treatment. Whilst they of course spend the companys money and kill people you could try and act a bit more like our adminers and make their life's easy.

And please, don't turn this into a aircrew v groundcrew thing. You cannot even begin to compare yourself to the hard working, under staffed , over tasked Engineers, FC's, Int, ATC, regiment, et al who deserve proffesional respect. In my time in the RAF there was not a single incident where any OC Admin and their assorted admin muppets did anything which would make me think of your branch as anything other than a joke.

Once again i hear the voice of reason from anytimebaby. Since he still has to put up with you admin clowns ( all be it on the end of a phone for 3 years) i can only guess by his posts that things have got worse instead of better. Patience of a saint mate. Wish i was there.

Enjoy your weekend.

<img src="tongue.gif" border="0">

[Stan Moore]

Hear Hear!!!

There is not an Aircrew/Groundcrew 'thing' as you put it.... there is a 'thing' between those who do and those that can't/won't/don't. Most of our still, believe it or not, world respected team put 100% and more into what we do - ie. project airpower. We are all undermanned, overworked and generally ******ed around but do it because we think the job is important.... the thought that some small minded t**t makes himself feel important by putting a 1771 to the bottom of his pile is actually very sad - perhaps he ought to be chatting to fellow SACs guarding the airfield at Kabul - those guys are really important. AG and SS need to grow up or f**k off and those professionals amongst us... and I include everyone apart from AG and SS in that soubriquet should ignore their puerile and morale sapping posts.

[Mowgli]

FGLFB . .. .Just like to point out that when I screw up, </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">it may mean no beans for tea</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">,but that's for me and the 300+ people I will take with me. The profile button is quite useful in making sure you have your facts straight. I recommend you adopt more of a team player attitude for your future career. Who knows, we may share the same flight deck one day and we can discuss it then.. . . . <small>[ 18 March 2002, 12:46: Message edited by: Mowgli ]</small>

[SACSmith]

I feel I have to defend myself. I am a team player, I understand that the whole is greater than the sum of its equal parts. I do my best to provide my superiors with a 1st class administrative service, so they can get on with achieveing their goals, and make their bosses happy, and so on. This isn't a air/ground debate, the flyers do the real operational stuff, and adminers are there to support them. I just don't like being slagged off by spoilt Tom, with his inferences that because I'm an SAC Adminer, I'm basically pond-life and have nothing to contribute & my job is worthless. I even apologised to Spoilt Tom somewhere in this thread, which seems to have fallen on deaf ears. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="confused.gif" /> Whilst I have nothing against Admin Guru, just because we're both Admin doesn't mean we are joined at the hip. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="cool.gif" />

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Dear All, . . What a wonderful thread this has become but it would appear that there are a lot of us in here who are suffering from the traditional British trait of envy. If we could all just accept that the "main" task of the RAF today, as it has always been, is the projection of of our Air Power and that anything we can do as individuals to streamline that is simply in the best interests of us ALL, what a different Air Force we would have. Most of us have to grasp the fact that we will never be CAS, or the like, and find our niche in life and strive to do the best at what ever level we reach. I am now approaching my 28th year in the mob and after 15 years fixing all 3 types of aircraft I have spent the last 12 and a bit either hanging out of a Puma door or tending to the needs of those unfortunate souls aft of 245....whilst making the odd coffee for Alberts drivers, two less to cater for on my electric jet! I realised, a few years ago, that I had reached my particular rung on lifes ladder and am very happy with my lot, however I believe the system is at fault as it seems to want to breed a continous succesion of "aspiring chiefs", but frowns on anyone who is happy to accept their "indian" status. And lets face it without a happy buch of indians what's the point of being a chief? . .. .There can be absolutely no doubt that we do select the most capable people to drive our aircraft, even if they often seem to have the people skills of Attila the Hun, the patience of Basil Fawlty or the petulance of most two year olds, often displayed in here with great aplomb! However, if we were all honest with ourselves the job they do is one we would all love to "ave a go at" but for most of us this is a dizzy height we will never attain. That said I have managed to reach FS ALM, and proud of it, without a single O/A level to my name and at the senile age of 31 so the oppertunities are there but are limited. . .. .So for the very very small band of "AG" clones out there who, more often than not sit in the "big" seats in handbrake house or other admin outposts counting very important beans, please spare a thought for Blogg's next time he/she, nice PC touch there, show's exasperation cos your section's not manned over lunch,imagine Albert stopping for lunch...now there's an idea, or he/she can't get a medical/dental appt to fit with their flying prog, or they have been dicked for the classic Admin job of Ord Officer cos most adminers have some sort of manufactured stand by duty and therefore are exempt....go figure!!..... sh@t! the list is endless. Just pause and ask yourself what has he/she been doing or how long has he/she just been away while you have been sat there drinking your tea and thinking up new ways to f..k up the meagre spare time they have.. .. .End of diatribe. Bit disjointed but I think the sentiment is about right. Wonder if anyone will disagree?. .. .Happy Herc Mate. .. .All spelling mistakes are alcohol induced.....hic!. . . . <small>[ 06 March 2002, 10:01: Message edited by: Always_broken_in_wilts ]</small>

[left one o clock]

Is this a Clark Kent/Superman thing?SACSmith/Admin Guru...one and the same?

[Admin Guru]

Gentlmen,. .I have just returned from another stimulating happy hour - the chat was racy and the lager free flowing. . .. . </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica"> OC Admin and their assorted admin muppets did anything which would make me think of your branch as anything other than a joke </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">Ridiculous comments like this really annoy me. How uninformed and unappreciative can you get? Glad you're in the civvie sector now because attitudes like yours, both ill-informed and outspoken, would not cut it in the modern military. Hope the admin staff you deal with on a day to day basis appreciate your amazingly patronising view of their status. However, I was interested in the fact that you said your allowances were automatically processed. You may well have read in one of my Forums that I make reference to such an integrated digital system such as this.

[walesjr]

First time posting on this site however,smiffy, word of advice on 6000's. Dont write anything in your reply box unless it's creepy ****lick brown nose stuff as this box is considered by the staff at PMA(Blunty Central) as a suicide box. Fill this box with anything non complimentary to your 1st RO and thats you off the promotion board.