Airtours to take on Temp Airbus Pilots

[PUP]

A pal of mine tells me that Airtours will be taking on Airbus FOs on temporary contracts for the summer season. Heads up, any unemployed 320/1 pilots!

[MissChief]

Correct...6 Captains, 10 FO's, bases and pay not defined. Good luck to all unemployed Bus Drivers. Hopefully the start of a return to work for us all.

[A and C]

So as i predicted some time ago on these pages after the panic redundancys we start to see the panic recrutment.

The events of the last five months just show the poor quality of the vast majority of airline managment who all most to a man felt that they had to do some thing in a crisis and so vastly over reacted.

I am left thinking that it what else can you expect when you let the bean counters run a company without adult supervision.

I can only think of one airline in the UK charter market that has had a good leadership from the top over the last few months , so it can be done but there are very few managers that have the vision and insight to not follow the pack when the whole market has so vastly over reacted.

I am now left to ponder who will take the blame for the increase in training costs that are a result of getting rid of pilots is november and then having to recrut them in march ,no doubt the bean counters will be patting them selfs on the back for finding the "new" business and so put the extra costs down to the skillfull way they have turned the situation around !.

[ 25 February 2002: Message edited by: A and C ]</p>

[Big Tudor]

A & C

Sorry to correct you on one small point but Airours didn't lay off any pilots last year.

[nigelhayes5000]

achally that sounds like quite a big point to me! good luck to anyone who is fortuitous enough to secure a postion, all be it only for the summer! <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

[tbamber]

I think perhaps that the comment about only one Airline has shown good management since 11th must have been refering to Airtours. The management did not panic, did not make redundancies, and is now recruiting!!.. .May the rest of the industry follow.

[sky9]

I notice jobs in "Flight" this week for 757 & 767 pilots this week. . .I’m not so sure that it was the management that panicked, I suspect that it was us that were panicked into lower salaries and job cuts. . ."They" of course will get big bonuses for frightening us into agreeing.. . <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

[really not]

TB - ever the company man!! <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

[Pilot Pete]

I do not deny this is good news for any out of work Airbus pilots, but has anyone thought that this might be the start of a disturbing trend of the charter operators looking to employ summer only pilots? How do the costs of summer contract workers compare to year round employees? I don't know, but would guess they work out more expensive for the summer but less overall? Surely the best way to operate would be to find work for your fleet during the winter season (I know times are currently hard) as well, especially if your a/c are leased and not owned outright? Any thoughts?

PP

[hapzim]

Agree with you pete , a worring trend .

By the way Airtours did apply redundancies after sept 11 but with drew them after some early retirements.

edited due spelling its been a long day!!!!!

[ 25 February 2002: Message edited by: hapzim ]</p>

[flite idol]

I totally agree Pete. If Airtours were hiring for permanent positions that would be very good news indeed, however if the trend now goes to just hiring short term contract pilots for the busy season with very few permanent jobs out there then I think we are on the slippery slope.

[toulouse_le_trek]

Just checked my backcopy of Flight and the airliner Census dated October and can't find a swedish operator of 757s, anyone know who they are?

[Fly_Right]

I seem to recall IEA or Air World (Alan Dix'mob) tried to just employ drivers on Summer contracts. Come the upturn they didn't have any pilots and had to scrabble around with permanent contracts to get the people they needed. Not the start of a trend, me thinks. (not with easy taking all and sundry permanently!)

[driftwood]

In many industries (including research) you're employed for the duration of a contract, then it's goodbye and no company pension. Surprised it hasn't come to Package Flight crews

[sky9]

Jobs are with Air Atlanta on the 767 and a Swedish operator on the 757. If the rumours last year about Air Atlanta are correct our cabin staff earn't more!!

[WAIF-er]

Airtours introduced 10 month contracts for their cabin crew for the first time in november. Basically, from what I remember, they are paid a monthly salary just for the 10 months that they work ( Jan - Oct ) and in december, they got a £500 sum to tide things over xmas.

I am not sure though whether such crew are classed as permanent. I suspect they are classed as permanent. If this sort of contract is introduced for flight crews aswell, it could work IF the pay is right.

Hey, 2 months holiday - xmas & new year included - not that bad in my opinion.

I understand some peoples fears that this could be the start of a slippery slope, however, if the forecast pilot shortage is correct, then the charter guys will have to be paid a decent salary just to be retained by their employer.

[tailscrape]

Pilot Pete, as you know my friend I love to bang the drum!!

I and you have been nagging on about this in our mob since Sept.

Mind you, we employed AMERICANS on BRITISH aircraft for the summers recently. And no one complained......perhaps AIH are just following our trend.

On another note, I am not sure that are that many redundant Airbus drivers out there in the UK. I dunno how many AMM laid off??

Perhaps someone can shed light....

[411A]

Temp guys/gals are THE way to go, for flight deck positions, IMHO. Good for the airline concerned...and the pilots, who have a little winter vacation, preferably in the sun.. .'Tis the wave of the future guys, like it or not...and many won't. The company shareholders/management smile all the way to the bank :)

[SFly]

Not exactly sure but I believe Air 2000 laid off quite a multitude of pilots (they were getting rid of 6[?] aircraft after all) but I'm not sure if any or how many of those were Airbus pilots. . .<a href="http://www.pprune.org/cgibin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=016638&p=" target="_blank">Air 2000 redundancies</a>

Well done to Airtours for their example during this time (despite the name change!! :) <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> ) I don't think they got rid of any aircraft this winter and in fact are looking to expand their fleet, which should bring even more jobs and frequency in the future. Also according to the annual report book (which I didn't actually read very closely <img src="redface.gif" border="0"> ) the holidays have been selling miraculously quickly for Summer and Winter 2002, especially over the Christmas period, so it looks like some more comforting times are in store in the AIH camp.

SFly <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

[toulouse_le_trek]

No 320 drivers were laid off by Air2K, they were all 757 drivers and by all accounts they are looking to take them back despite the fact that a number have got jobs with the low cost carriers. Only thing stopping the Co bringing them back too soon is the loss of face the management will face, they may even try to bring them back on short term contracts but if they aren't quick they will all have gone elsewhere. BTW we still have 10 demoted Capts who are still feeling pretty sore!

[Sailor boy]

bmi let 30 odd Airbus drivers go, many of who flew for Airtours as part of a lease during the summer.

Far from being a worrying trend the summer contract development is merely a by-product of supply and demand. The real question is when will it reverse again?

[Gomer]

Tailscrape,. .Just to remind you, we also employed UK pilots for the winter in the USA. In fact we still have a few 757 guys here this winter despite our own furloughed pilots.

[diplomat]

411A

How can you say summer only contracts be THE way to go for the pilots? It totally undermines their job security, pension rights,etc etc and their motivation to the company, which will only be to the detriment of the company, shareholder etc etc. I take it you are not a pilot. Or if you are you do not have many friends at work?

Pilot Pete and TS

It is not the nationality of the Americans flying our aircraft that is the real problem, it is the fact that they were in effect summer only contract workers (I think maybe you were actually going along this line) and so were undermining the UK job market. However I do not blame the US pilots themselves, but our management for not utilising their assets (aircraft and crew) efficiently all year round.

[flite idol]

Oh how lovely, a little winter vacation away from medical benefits, insurance and a pension. I for one cant wait.! If 411A is extolling the vertues of contracting in this fashion then it can only be bad for the foot soldiers. Replacing permanent jobs with contract third party airlines or temporary crews is not a good thing for any incumbent domestic workforce. Short term cudos for shortsighted managers but there is no substitute for loyal happy permanent employees.

[763 jock]

411A. Is your real name Bob Ayling? What wonders you could do for the industry!!! <img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> <img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">

[flying headbutt]

...well there are three virgin sun A320's and one virgin A320 parked up at Filton so there might be some A320 bods kicking their heels.

[411A]

Which would be better....

Airline "A" needs more aeroplanes in the summer than winter, so it leases extra capacity..but wait, where do they find the pilots? The answer, experienced contract crew.

Airline "A" needs more aeroplanes as above, but hires permanent staff for the summer period, only to lay them OFF in the winter, with NO pay.

Of course contract crew are paid MORE because they are temporary. What should airline "A" do?. .From managements perspective...contract crew.

[Arkroyal]

This is a very worrying trend,

bmir has got away with it in the UK by laying off all its 146 crews, and promptly re- 'employing' them on month by month contracts. Less money, no pension.

No wonder the management's lacky 411a thinks that's a good thing!

[Gaza]

[quote]Surely the best way to operate would be to find work for your fleet during the winter season (I know times are currently hard) as well, especially if your a/c are leased and not owned outright? Any thoughts? <hr></blockquote>

I think you can bet the house that the airlines do try to find as much work for the fleet during the winter as they can. Unfortunately it is simple economics, there are too few buyers for too many widgets.

[Big Tudor]

Also, winter is traditionaly the time for heavy maintenance on the aircraft. What do you do with the pilots when there are 3 or 4 aircraft out of service at any on time. Lay them off?? . .Cabin crew have been employed on this basis for a number of years at charter airlines. Isn't it good sense to have enough permanent crew to manage the winter program and then bring in extras on temp contracts for the summer? Permanent positions could then be offered as and when they come up to people who are already known to the company and who have valuable experience on the aircraft and routes.

[ShotOne]

It is encouraging to see a company taking on pilots, and a sign that the downturn is not so bad as some airline's management would have us believe - but while a six month contract is definitely better than nothing, it is not the same as a job -and when jobs do start coming up through the summer, it would be very surprising if a pilot with a few months contact to go were to turn one down. What do Airtours do then?

In the short term, 411 is right in that this is a good deal from the management perspective. In the longer term though, the industry will cease to attract young people prepared to fund their own training. Indeed even those who wanted to would be unable to raise the funds without the prospect of a job, as opposed to a temporatry contract, after becoming qualified.

[The Overloaded Man]

Listen fellas, I need a break. I'm A320 rated and got dumped/made redundant recently. Who do I contact at Airtours and/or Air 2000? I don't mind which seat I sit in, as long as I can earn a crust. All help really appreciated. A summer's contract would be just fine ...

[toulouse_le_trek]

I wouldn't bother with Air2Bob my friend they are laying people off, not taking them on!

<img src="eek.gif" border="0">

[Few Cloudy]

Interesting - if this thread had been about Crossair taking on pilots it would have been in Wannabees by now - here we get three sides...

[airwalker]

Toulouse-le-trek. .In your previous post you said that A2000 were looking to take those pilots made redundant back, now in your latestpost you say that hey are looking to get rid of folk. Which hymn sheet are you singing from ?

[Clarence Oveur]

Or could Airtours be keeping this inhouse, and be using pilots from Premiair?.

They are known to have A320/330 crews in surplus.

[BigRab]

They are in addition to the Vikings, who are part of the group; and also in addition to the 4/5 320/330 from Canada, who are not part of the group nor EU.

[FLEX42]

Overloaded, for Airtours (My Travel) try the Chief Pilot, Norman Dance. All the best <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

Clarence, Premiair crews are being used + Skyservice as usual in the summer, but still more are required.

[newswatcher]

Overloaded, try:

Airline Pilot Recruitment. .0161 232 6701

<img src="smile.gif" border="0"> <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

[The Overloaded Man]

FLEX42 and Newswatcher, thanks for sensible positive replies. Have just spoken to Airtours and my CV is on its way. Thanks again.

[toulouse_le_trek]

skyvoyager

Apologies, should have explained:

Air2K pilot management want to take guys back but are not being allowed to by First Choice board who are saying make do with what you have. The Crew Council belief last October was that the board were trying to change the airline into something like the Airtours model, crew for winter, surge for summer with wet lease or temporary contract. It may well be that there will be more redundacies at the end of this summer to complete the change to winter model.

[mindstorm]

The reason for the temporary crew is uncertainty over next winters requirements so an unwillingness to recruit permanantly as yet. The airline was about 20 FO's short but is using extra Skyservice aircraft this summer. . .I would have thought that anyone in on a seasonal contract this year would be a good bet for permanant employment when recruitment starts.

Airtours made nobody redundant after Sep 11 (retirement or otherwise) - they only flew 70% of their work.

Don't knock it - do you see anybody else recruiting?

[Ignition Override]

In the US, a retired (from twenty years active duty, a few with eighteen or so) Lt. Col or Navy/Coast Guard Commander etc receives a modest, but steady paycheck and often is hired by major or smaller airlines: many have paid for type ratings. i.e. Southwest, Airtran, Midway, maybe Jetblue... Some might not need permanent flying, depending on a spouse's paycheck, for example.

A FEDEX Airbus (300) Captain told me a few years ago after I jumpseated on his plane, that some retired military pilots he had worked with at his company had stated that they would almost fly for nothing. Even if an airline has a "B-scale", they are much better off financially than civilian pilots in their new-hire class. Mr. Fred Smith ("Mr. FEDEX") was somehow listening.

What do those pilot attitudes do for present/future industry-level salaries and for pilots who are rooted in one place with a family? Some pilots with a second income don't need a competitive airline salary: what perfect robots/ignorant suckers to order around (and with no civilian experience-what a bonus for mgmt).

[ 28 February 2002: Message edited by: Ignition Override ]</p>

[sapco2]

Don't worry chaps, Airtours will not be employing any retired Lt. Cols from the USA!

[BusBoy]

BigRab the Canadian Pilots and A/c to which you refer are a part of the Airtours (MyTravel) group. I believe they are now MyTravel Airways(Canada).

However, I also do not think that it is right that they are coming over here to fly UK routes when ther are so many UK pilots who would kill for the jobs.

[BigRab]

Bus Boy,. .Unless there has been a recent change Skyservice Canada only has a service agreement with MyTravel Group plc and are not part of the group in terms of ownership.. .This may well be due to Canadian government ownership by foriegners rules.. .Those similar protectionist rules seem to be far more restrictive on UK or EU pilots being allowed to work in Canada than appears to be the reciprical case.. .I couldn't care less where the airframe is registered but I do question the ethics of employing no EU Citizens at a time when there are probably many suitably qualified EU citezens out of work.. .Now of course if there was equal reciprical rights that would be more acceptable, but as I see it the chances of EU citizens working in Canada (or US are pretty slim). .Unless of course you know different?. .It may of course make sound economic sense for MYT to operate this way, and may well be in the interests of its share holders and possibly staff, but that is a different issue.

[WAIF-er]

the Airtours - Skyservice agreement works both ways and thus benefits Airtours in that they can lease SSV A320's for short haul work, whilst agreeing to take the SSV A330 for winter work, when the A330 would otherwise be out of work.

What must be remembered here is that as mentiond earlier, Airtours havent laid off any pilots. One reason for this is good management of the AIH fleet size, ensuring 100% utilisation all year round. This Is achieved through leasing and sub-chartering of other aircraft for AIH flights and this includes the Skyservice A330's and A320's.

Sure, it would be nice if British crews could fly C-reg aircraft and so on, but we cant have everything can we.

I personally would not like to be looking for work in Canada at the moment, those guys are having a rough time on the jobs front.

[Ignition Override]

Sapco2: I attempted to describe only the situation whereby many US airlines, regional, national or major (cargo and pax), have been glad to hire retired military pilots, who don't rely on an airline paycheck for their total income. And by the way, I have so far been glad to have worked with any and all who have been paired with me as my FO. This applies just as much to all of my FOs, male and female, with only civilian backgrounds. Luckily, neither the retired fighter/attack/recce or trainer/transport/tanker/heavy bomber pilots are bothered by initially flying here several years as First Officer.

By highlighting only a (very?) small fraction of such pilots, who seem not to need or expect industry-level pay for work at US airlines for industry-level responsibilities and workload, which they enjoy anyway, this was not intended as any type of generalization.

Good luck with the job market over there, anywhere.

[MissChief]

Interviewing starts Monday...CV's still being reviewed. Good luck all.

[moan_on]

...so who's got interview dates?. .. .....and which bases? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="tongue.gif" />

[Rowley]

Good luck to you all.... .. .Ive always said when i qualify i want to work for Airtours. Fantastic airline and obviously well managed.....just makes me want to work for them even more!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" />

[nigelhayes5000]

Moan_on. .. .Bases at East Midland, Bristol, Birmingham, Cardiff. Interviews started yasterday and I'm not sure when they finsih but if your in the frame then good luck!

[Mialo]

Have spoken to Airtours. They are after 8 F/O's have to rated A320.

[Star of the County Down]

Hey 320/1 guys....Why don't you apply to Region Air in Singpore? . . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" />

[Prince Of Darkness]

Because, Star of the County Down, it might give me a hernia!

[Star of the County Down]

Funny that I've just had an operation for one two weeks ago!

[pilot26]

Great for out of work pilots,not good for all the guys awaiting command training at airtours.. . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="mad.gif" />

[The Overloaded Man]

Do any of you have an address/fax/e-mail for Region Air in Singapore? Thanking you.

[Rock and Hard Place]

Interested to know what the final T&C were?. .. .We who were made redundant from Air2bob and are being offered Summer contracts have been told: mid-May to Mid-October, one month notice either way, no leave, no company pension contributions but a £2500 gift in place at the end of the contract. I appreciate this is a better offer than no offer and better than some guys will get fullstop but are these T&C to become an industry norm or are we being taken advantage of? BTW what is BALPA doing for you?

[Blakey]

Rock and Hard Place,. .. .It looks like your log in name is extremely apt. I notice that it is a new name and can only hope that you have reason to change it to something more upbeat in the future.. .. .I cannot talk for the Airtours contract and it is sad that no-one has replied to your heartfelt plea. Therefore I will try to answer your questions on temporary contracts: You don't say how much you are being offered (and frankly why should you) but unless it is significantly more than your previous pay, I suspect that you are being taken advantage of. Contract pay should take into account the fact that you have to live off it for longer than the contract itself. You mentioned pension provision, there is also health and licence insurance to look after all year. The fact that you will have no leave, unlike the permanent guys, means that the company are already getting a few weeks for free as it is. You can't expect to get a year's pay in 6 months but the company should not expect to get you for the same rate as the permanent employers are paid and certainly not for less. You may get more of an insight, and an idea of the going rate at <a href="http://www.cockpitforum.com." target="_blank">www.cockpitforum.com.</a>. .. .However, the rate at the end of the day is a question of supply and demand which isn't in your favour at the moment. Back to a rock and hard place!. .. .As for it becoming the industry norm, that will depend on BALPA. Enough said I think.. .. .No it's not! They will gladly take their cut of your pay but will they earn it? I suspect (and I do hope I am wrong) that you will not be looked after by the company reps as you are no longer employed by the company. I expect that if BALPA have been contacted they will have said yippee for a few temporary jobs (and more money for them) and not looked at T&C for temporary contracts. BALPA please tell me that I am wrong and that you have looked after Rock and Hard Place and his colleagues and got them what they deserve.

[moan_on]

OK, so who's got/are taking these jobs??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="rolleyes.gif" />

[nightstopmonster]

Going back to Toga Partys' comments. This latest practice will definitely condemn any new permanent pilots to the right seat for as long as they could possibly imagine. So if you want to be a career FO, you know who to go to. Those that wish to get on will just apply elsewhere. I cannot imagine that this will be good for the company in the longer term. . .Still, time will tell eh?

[763 jock]

AIH are just being careful. If the market expands as predicted then Commands will still appear. I joined in 1992 and expected to wait at least 7 years for a left seat. Growth has been fantastic at AIH and nearly all are very happy with career progression. This is not all doom and gloom!

[Down Three Greens]

Well said 763 jock mate...glad somebody being is being realistic.

[Sailor boy]

Surely the whole temp contract thing is purely driven by supply and demand. Right now there are type rated pilots without jobs and if companies can hire them for their busy periods at no cost (i.e. no training, commitment or premium for contract work) why wouldn't they? I doubt very much whether this will be the case next year.. .. .To answer R&C's question the T&C's are standard AIH year 1 FO rates with no holiday. Not too sure about the command package. . .. .Whilst I can understand Airtours being careful, to my knowledge no one has actually been offered a contract yet and the first course is due to start on Monday. . .. .My guess is there were an awful lot of ex bmi pilots interviewed who may go at 1 months notice if offered a permanent job back with Midland (sooner rather than later) and/or they may be having difficulties getting cheap leases for aircraft which means they may yet buy in a third party contractor. . .. .I could be accused of being very cynical and it is a slow HR department that is causing the problem, but I doubt it.. . . . <small>[ 20 March 2002, 11:18: Message edited by: Mike Rosewich ]</small>

[pilot26]

Airtours are running a performance course for the Airbus next week. This is specifically for the contract pilots Captain`s and F/O`s, numbers between 6-12.

[nigelhayes5000]

Is there anyone out there who has had 'OFFICIAL' notice that they are on this perf course next week? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="confused.gif" />

[nigelhayes5000]

I'll take that as a no then! but for those A/bus drivers who are quite anixous to hear if they are on said course, I have it on v good authority contracts were being sent out yesterday..good luck . . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />

[Sailor boy]

And today they arrive. How do they know how many will turn up on monday?

[Mr Angry from Purley]

Might as well take advantage of a temp job whilst looking for a perm job. With 1 months notice they can quiet easily move on if/when something comes up. . .Pre Sept 11 there was a lot of banter from AIH Pilots about moving on. Perhaps we now appreciate the grass is a little bit greener at AIH than most.. .. . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="mad.gif" />

[HiSpeedTape]

SkyService are not only intending to send over their Aircraft and Pilots but Engineers as well!. .They obviously think this is a good move because they can get Airtours not only to pay for the lease of the Aircraft but also the wages of their pilots and engineers. I cant see this sort of arrangement working in a reciprocal fashion. So whilst UK pilots and engineers languish on the dole, the Canadians are over here taking away our livelihoods. It sucks at there must be some employment law especially an EU one that would prevent this. Don't these guys need work permits over here?

[Spearing Britney]

All seems to have gone very quiet, anyone know when the next start date is and when/if contracts are likely to appear for it?

[Rock and Hard Place]

Likewise quiet in Air2bob. Rumour is that the redundant FOs will be offered Summer only temporary contract or Part-time 60% annual salary paid in 12 monthly instalments for working Summer only.. .. .JMC to loan 10 of their FOs who are working notice to Air2bob for the Summer and then make them redundant?