Falklands Farce

[Admin Guru]

After a lengthy discussion at happy hour last week, as to the relevance, or indeed need of an air power prescence over the Falkland Isles I thought I'd open this up for debate.

In the light of rumours regarding the closure of another RAF base on mainland UK due to budgetary constraints, why is the government (Labour) persisting in the maintenance of A: The Falklands Isles B: Ascension - a base that only serves as a stopping point on the journey to the former. This is highlighted in the improved political relations with Argentina as it undergoes a fiscal nightmare. . .Surely we should be concentrating our resources in areas far more consumate with the current political climate. It seems to me that maintaining an aged and ineffective fleet of F3s (a jet that apparently goes fast in a straight line and little else) with tanker support (!) merely puts a myriad of holes in the RAF's purse rather than attempting to plug the existing ones.

I'd appreciate your comments.

[Jeep]

I think it is so that the Air Force don't lose an overseas posting. It's a retention thing.

[The Scarlet Pimpernel]

At least there were only a couple of small hand grenades for the sensitive souls to cotton onto in your post!

Do you really think we'd still be there if there wasn't a sodding good reason? There are many ideologies - the main one being the primary reason behind the Gulf War ..... OIL. Unfortunately though, getting at it is a bit of a problem as the South Atlantic seabed is a long way down, unlike the North Sea. The technological problems that this presents alone are taking time to solve, notwithstanding the odd iceberg thrown in for good measure (OK - not in the immediate vicinity, but within the area of exploration).

Secondly, whether you like it or not, both the Falkland Islands and Ascension are British and the adage "once bitten, twice shy" holds true. Besides, when you are effectively saying "let's forget about them" you're also forgetting that British servicemen died to keep them British. 20 years is not a watershed to give up. And, yes, I have spent 4 months down there (not long compared to some) and seen the different war memorials and done the battlefield tours......they don't deserve to die in vain.

To answer your inflammatory comments regarding the F3s at MPA - although the crews are being stretched to cover many theatres, it is still a very effective platform to cover the perceived threat. You show your naiivity with your comments - if only the real world were so black and white!!

These are only my thoughts on the subject... <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

[Kaa050]

AG,

Were you involved in the "Discussion" or just listening in?

Also, were there any F3 Aircrew involved? I suspect not, since you don't mention about being beaten-up afterwards.

Kaa

[ 29 January 2002: Message edited by: Kaa050 ]</p>

[Tourist]

AG You are a tw@t. The Falklands are British. They pay their taxes. Therefore we look after them. Its called western civilisation. Yes they cost us a lot of money. So what?

[bluntie]

This thread appears to have got some people's back's up. Personally, when I was there everyone I spoke to thought being there was a waste of time. I couldn't find anyone, except the islanders, who thought we were actually achieving anything by being there. . . For what it's worth I don't think that the Argentinians would try another invasion (once bitten etc.), unless anyone knows different!.

[chippy63]

The fiscal nightmare in Argentina that AG refers to is itself a good reason for continued vigilance over the Falklands. Fervent nationalism can easily be whipped up to deflect attention from intractable problems at home. It is the second level politicos looking for a soapbox that you have to look out for.. .Maintainiing a presence at least sends the signal, lacking before Falklands war, that the UK sees that it has a defence commitment down there.

chippy 63

[Big Green Arrow]

AG. .Have you really been to Cranwell or are you having a Steffi at your own expense. Bless you, you must have been asleep for the WHOLE Def Stud phase, as this very subject is covered in some considerable detail! Chimp.

Now quit putting inane drivel on this site and leave it to meaningful, useful posts!

Love Rules!

[Jackonicko]

AG's inane characterisation of the F3 masks the fact that for relatively little expenditure, the aircraft could also be a fully SEAD/TIALD/EO GP(1) capable and flexible tactical fighter, sending Argentina an even more powerful message.

[Flatus Veteranus]

Bluntie

"For what its worth, I don't think the Argies would try another invasion..."

That was the FCO's official policy line a few weeks before the Argies landed at Port Stanley in '82. The FCO's South Atlantic desk proved to be a waste of rations. Are you SO sure you are right? For my money there are a few other commitments we could give up before the Falklands.

<img src="smile.gif" border="0">

[stillin1]

AG. .Yet again you manage to make what you perceive to be a couple of relevent questions, but can't resist from doing so in a remarkably insulting way. You really do seem to be a uniquely balance little tw@t - chips on both shoulders. Just for a laugh try asking a question without the sarcastic and/or insulting little asides. You never know - you may actually get some answers! . .Were you abused as a child or are you like this for no good reason? <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

Oh! by the way the AAR support is fine when the jet is servicable and the F3 (same applying)is more than adequate for the job. The problem is we are there primarily for politacal reasons not military ones. Militarily we would need far more airframes in theatre to sustain a credible deterrant.

[Admin Guru]

Yet again I feel berated for little good reason. I had a knowledgable chat about this in the bar on friday, yet you still question my knowledge!. .JEEP - I think retention is about money not postings. I refer you to my previous thread "Whinging aircrew".

Scarlet Pimp - I am astounded. Oil? Colonialism? I ask you exactly how many barrels of oil do we produce as a nation in the Falklands or get any benefit from? Is this justification for closing Lyneham instead? You talk about the real world! I refer you to the real world of budgets and meeting requirements.

BLUNTIE - One of the few valid points. You obviousely understand my initial argument.

BGA - Cranwell? Of course i have been there. If you had been there you would know they hardly touch on the Falklands apart from the Vulcan (now not in service) mission.

JACKONICKO - Why do you post on a military aircrew forum? Anyone knows the F3 would not be a suitable SEAD aircraft. Its role down the Falklands is surely hours building and training.

Flattus - By your own logic should we not be suspicious of the Germans/Spanish/Romans that have invaded British territory in the past?

I await some rather more informed responses.

[simonbrewis]

AG,. .yes oil you dimwit. Do you not follow world events or even take an interest in things which may concern you while you are still in the airforce.. .Take a look at a map and then reassess your coments. You will find that the Falklands are remarkably close to a very large area called Antarctica, where there are quite vast deposits of oil. Sorry for being so patronising but you really do deserve it.. .Also Asi is not just used as a staging post for getting to/from MPA.. .The AT fleet uses it quite a bit to get to other places in the world. <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">

[simonbrewis]

That's colonialism for you!

[Social Hand Grenade]

AG "Why do you post on a military aircrew forum? ", you said it! Jacko is as welcome as anybody else on the forum, even if he is press <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> I say keep em, cos you can count the penguins on your day off.

[Fg Off Max Stout]

Admin Guru, I thought that your question was a little more valid than your previous thread and so I will attempt to give you a sensible answer. This is how I see it-

The Falkland Islands are legitimately British territory. There was no indigenous population, and under the right to self determination, the British inhabitants who have been there for generations wish to retain absolute British Sovereignty, (despite the willingness of our PM to entertain the idea of dual sovereignty both there and in Gib).

&lt;unrelated rant - if I had my way I'd be sending troops into Zimbabwe to protect the interests of more Brits who are being murdered, raped, abused by a corrupt, racist dictator - could start a whole new thread on that alone&gt;

As has already been pointed out, Argentina took the undefended islands with ease in 82, and reclaiming them is something of a crusade. At a time of Argie instability and belligerence we must not drop our guard. The presence on the islands is formidable and FI is one of the best defended pieces of real estate in the world.

Additionally FI makes a good training environment, free of noise complaints, and oil exploration must be seen as a speculative investment for the future which could pay off big time. Don't forget that in all areas apart from defence the FI Government makes a nett contribution to the UK economy, through fisheries etc.

As for ASI, a more cost effective way of rotating aircraft has been devised (see the C17 thread) and ASI itself is a useful staging post for a number of routes, in the same way as Diego Garcia.

Hope that helps answer the question. I've tried to be nice but I have a sneaking suspicion that you're a journo looking for column inches. ps thanks for pointing out that the government is Labour and the Vulcan has retired. Cheers. (Joke). <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

[Ed Winchester]

Diplomat,

In answer to your question of original ownership - <a href="http://www.geocities.com/little_chay/hisintro.htm" target="_blank">Have a read of this.</a>

[The Scarlet Pimpernel]

AG - you asked for opinions/comments and I gave you one! You say you are knowledgeable (based on a pissed conversation with a mirror no doubt) and yet you show an alarming lack of understanding on British Defence Policy, history, geography and the capabilities of the nation's forces. In fact you have demonstrated a remarkable lack of any knowledge at all. I pity the station that has to put up with you.

[Jackonicko]

AG: Why do I post? Do you mean what right/qualifications do I have to post?

More flying hours than you, I suspect. More military P1 hours than you definitely (Oh OK, even if only UAS). More mates who are aircrew. Probably more understanding of the strengths and weaknesses of F3. And I dare say that I know more about the studies into F3 for SEAD than you do, too, though the whole subject is a mite sensitive beyond the fact that it's been looked at (including flying trials at Spadeadam, I understand). Better spelling and grammar than you (Not Admin Sec, clearly) even if not 'consumate with the current political climate'.

Tourist had it spot on. "AG you are a tw@t".

Max Stout: He hasn't got even the limited abilities required to make it as a journo.

[Big Green Arrow]

AG

Just finished there as DS..so I have a passing interest in what's taught....me thinks natural selection will get you soon......hopefully!

Pimps: get changing Nappies!

[mikeylea]

AG

I think your posts are so eagerly torn apart is because they are so badly researched. The capability of the F3 in its present iteration is sufficient for the theatres in which it operates. The latent capability of the paltform and capabilities due to be incorporated this year seem to be unknown to you or your drinking buddies. I suspect you will never come close enough to the sharp end of operations to find out, so don't complain when people begin to build up a head of steam.

PS I enjoy the reactions they provoke it is most entertaining

[stillin1]

AG. .When you decide to go down in flames you do make a good job of it!. .Purely for your edification - J is correct, the F3 could do the SEAD job with minimal modifications. Trust me I know. You need to change your drinking buddies - they appear to know Jack-sh@t too, which in your case ain't a big help is it?

Rule 1: Walk softly and keep quiet about things you are ignorant of unless it is to POLITELY ask questions!!! <img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> Keep posting, just get a grip and stop trying so succesfully to be a tw@t

Oops for spellling

[Flatus Veteranus]

Admin Guru

So far as I know, the FCO did not assess "nil threat" a few weeks before the Germans (?) Spanish (?) or Romans invaded us. However, I would still keep a wary eye on the Germans, spanish and Romans. <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

[gravity victim]

And the French! Don't forget the French! <img src="eek.gif" border="0">

[Admin Guru]

Fg Off MS - some good points.

Jacko - amazed that you use a few bulldog hours back in the seventies as justification to knock my credibilty and talk in an authoratative way on the F3. If it is such a grrrreat fighter why is everyone so panicky and annoyed that EFA is late? Besides how good can a fighter be that has a radar made by a company that usually makes cement?!

If OIL is the main reason for us keeping the Falkland Isles I would like to see this defended on a political stance - I thought we were there to defend against the threat from Argentina. . .If it is just for training inexperienced crews on a desolate island - then there must be cheaper ways to do this. Simulator perhaps?

[pitotheat]

AG

Do you really belong in the RAF? I think you should have a long hard think of where your talents lie and follow an alternative career. As for being an Officer - I don't think so.

[Fox_4]

Pitotheat - Although AG`s comments may be somewhat inflammatory, I dont think you can really question whether he is an officer in the RAF can you? Are/were you?

There are all types of people in the RAF, commissioned or not and they are all entitled to their own opinions, at least he is expressing his, liked or not! Most people would have backed down a long time ago.

Thats not to say I agree with those views, just playing the man on the fence.

[nav attacking]

AG: Are you or were you really Admin or do you just like to act like an ignoramous? You give decent Admin Pers a bad name.

Yes the F3 is an old aircraft designed for an old threat but it is one of the newest combat aircraft that the RAF currently owns! The fault being that too many bean counters get in on the procurement phase delaying any chance of getting the right aircraft at the right time.

Yes lots of people are annoyed about the fact that EFA is late and it is just that, it is late like everything else we seem to try to bring into service. Just look at C130J, Merlin, Chinook update, GR7, MRA4......the list only ends because the airforce has shrunk!!!

As for the Falklands. They are British and so we should defend them (until the politicians see fit to sell off some more real estate to pay for MPs pay and benefits increases). It is not just the oil potential in the area but my A-level Geology taught me about some pretty useful deep sea mineral deposits in that area of ocean too (manganese nodules etc). Again,like oil, the only reasons we dont hear about them are:

a. It is too costly to extract them at the moment.

and

b. We tend not to let on to the real reasons behind fighting over a country. I refer you to WW1, WW2, Korea, Iraq/Kuwait, Kosovo ... (Afghanistan??). The real reasons tend to be a little too tastless for Jo Public.

Get a life you are holding on too tightly!!! <img src="eek.gif" border="0">

<img src="cool.gif" border="0">

[ 30 January 2002: Message edited by: nav attacking ]</p>

[Man-on-the-fence]

Fox_4

[quote]Thats not to say I agree with those views, just playing the man on the fence.<hr></blockquote>

I do believe thats my job :) :)

AG. .For what it is worth, as a taxpayer, I am quite happy - nay insistant - that the Falklands are defended. Its all about the right of self determination.

If you dont like it, well thats your opinion, and people have died to you can freely express it.

[Fox_4]

Sorry "Man on the Fence". Maybe I should have said Devils Advocate. No one called that is there?!. .Just off to take the "BEagles" out for a late nite walk.

Edited for "Crap" humour inputs

[ 30 January 2002: Message edited by: Fox_4 ]</p>

[devilsadvocate666]

Fox 4 are you talking to me? Well are you?

BTW, Admin Gonad youre a fncking tool and you should be shot for the benefit of your country. How can a first tourist be so bitter so soon. It normally takes about 20 yrs of admin sec or stag on the main gate to hate the the RAF as much as you do. Now p{ss off. <img src="mad.gif" border="0">

[Dan Winterland]

I don't think we nicked them, we just sorted of ended up with them. For a while there was a French settlement on one Island and a British on the other - neither knowing of the other's existance for a while. The French named them the 'Maloiennes' from the settlers origin, St Malo. This was the origin of the Spanish 'Malvinas'. Eventually, the froggies decided the place was cr@p and went home, but we're still there!

[pitotheat]

F 4

I don't want to get in a slagging match with you, however, his general lack of service knowledge, courtesy and respect for the Service he claims to be part of lead me to hold my views. If he truly is a first tour pen-pusher then my comments are even more relevant. The RAF can not be that desperate for support staff these days that this fool has got through the system.

I am mighty thankful that I am now looking from the outside in after 20 years of serving with a truly professional team in all branches.

[Fox_4]

Apologies Pitoheat, just trying to be a bit impartial thats all. But your point is a valid one.

Devils advocate - nothing meant, didnt know u actually existed either! Maybe I should have used the word impartial initially.

Going for a cup of tea now!

<img src="cool.gif" border="0">

[simonbrewis]

I really do think we should stop encouraging the little runt to keep having a pop.. .He is clearly deluded and has probably spent too much time talking to other like minded second tourists who will obviously be far more worldly wise about all things airforce!. .I suggest we all just leave him to his paper clips

[Admin Guru]

brown eye "little runt" indeed. I don't see you with a thread named after you!. .As for nav attacking - what the hell are manganese nodules? If they are so important why is there no world market for them. By the way I did a Geography degree at university. Where do these nodules fit into the real world of budgets anyway?

Just food for thought people. Anyway we digress. Wasn't my intial question posed to seek an explanation for why we have fighters down there? Wouldn't an army garrison do the same job on a cheaper scale? If air assets are needed then the F3s can be flown down in the back of the C17 (see other thread.)

[Sven Sixtoo]

Hi AG

Have you thought of applying for the post of chief instructor at the RAF Fly Fishing Association?

Truly you make a magnificent cast - I bow to a master of the craft!

Let's see who who bites - this could be really funny.

Sven

[Jackonicko]

Great idea AG, fly em down after their needed. I'm sure the CO of Basa Aerea Malvinas will make sure his SAMs hold their fire as No.99 Squadron are on finals.....

Or that 99 will be able to LAPE the F3s out of the back after the FAA have cratered the runway. And they can go round again to drop the wings and tailplanes, after all.

A garrison without AD? Which planet are you from?

An Army garrison strong enough to repel invasion cheaper than a four FJ det intended to deter one? You, sir, are a strategic and economic genius.

[ttthompson]

Any else heard the rumour that the SAR Sea Kings may be pulled out, or dropped to one crew only. Apparently, servicability in the UK is pretty poor at present and the pool of manpower for crews is not much better.

[Admin Guru]

Jacko. .I don't think the Argies are going to invade on an ad hoc basis. If the political situation deteriorates, then send the F3s down. . .As for AD - have you never heard of Rapier?

Also - "their" in your first sentence. Should that not read "they are" or "they`re". Not very impressive for a journo really! Is it the "Beano" that you write for?

Edited for Jacko`s lack of journalistic talent

[ 31 January 2002: Message edited by: Admin Guru ]</p>

[Archimedes]

AG - either you're in serious danger of breaching EU Fishing Quotas or your BA/BSc in colouring left you with a serious lack of awareness.

Assuming it was a serious question:

1. Spin. Withdrawing from the Falklands would, most, likely, go down rather poorly with Joe Public, even though most of them have probably forgotten where they are.

2. ‘It is necessary to win the air battle before embarking on the land battle. If this is not done, then operations on land will be conducted at a great disadvantage’. (FM BL Montgomery, circa 1944). Giving the Argentine air force a free run in would not be a bright idea. I think I see where your point about C-17s is coming from: I presume (hope) you meant that there would be enough warning time to pack some F3s in the back of a C17 and send them down. But what if the warning time was low, or if the FCO failed to spot it (e.g late March - 2 April 1982)?

3. F3 CSP has AIM-120. Look at the pK/success rate of AMRAAM in ops since 1990. Any aircraft with the ability to fire AMRAAM (and maybe ASRAAM) is a threat. Particularly against a Skyhawk (even if it is an A-4R).

4. There is more than enough evidence in the public domain to show that the F3/SEAD capability is a viable idea and has been considered - but let's leave it at that.

5. Read SDR: it notes the importance of British dependencies and the need to defend them. The Falklands meets the criteria (and more than most).

6. Argentina wants the islands back. It is in a mess. It is not rocket science to envisage a government (with or without military take-over) to 'regain the hallowed ground of the Malvinas' to distract attention. Remember that if Galtieri had waited, he might have got away with it as a result of lack of Invincible, Fearless, Intrepid and several other rather important surface units. He didn't. May have been stupidity, but the lack of popularity of the government was a key driver (if you doubt the lack of popularity, look at how quickly the junta was deposed).

7. You talk about some odd issues in happy hour...

Despite the above, I still think I need to report you to the EU fisheries commissioner....

[edited for spelling]

[ 31 January 2002: Message edited by: Archimedes ]</p>

[ORAC]

AG. There are plans for the reinforcement of the Falklands. You have absolutely no need to know them. Obviously, from your comments, neither do those to whom you speak.

It is pointless discussing the situation when you are both ignorant of the facts and are not permitted to know them. Suffice it say your ignorance and grasp of such matters is appalling.

I suggest you leave such matters to those who are better informed than yourself. You only make yourself look a fool.

"Better to be silent and be thought a fool than to speak and confirm the fact".

Alas, I fear - too late.

[Dr Schlong]

AG - I believe Jackonicko was correct...

[quote] I'm sure the CO of Basa Aerea Malvinas will make sure his SAMs hold their fire as No.99 Squadron are on finals..... <hr></blockquote>

"...SAMs hold their fire..."

...in other words, he was talking about the possessive - have you ever studied grammar/English or do you always utter complete b.ll.cks?

A lesson for the future, or maybe a piece of advice - if a thought or opinion springs to mind, ponder it, dwell on it, then sleep on it, maybe mention it to a fellow colleague and get his/her opinion, ask your dad about it (assuming you had one!? :) ) and then, and only then, inflict it on fellow members of this forum!! <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">

[simonbrewis]

I assure you "litle runt", having a thread named after you is in no way a complement but if that's the way you see it, crack on.

ps Good luck with the cross over and i am being serious.. .Maybe, given time, you might come to know why we are like we are.. .As a doctor at CAM once told me, "All aircrew are wire locked to pissed off!"

[Archimedes]

The good Dr S is correct, AG (as was Jacko).

Their = of them, possesive

They're = they are

Do you not have a copy of the DWH in your office? It covers such matters.

From what I recall from the distant days of youth, the Beano was never particularly slack over its spelling or grammar.

[Not BVR]

Sorry chaps but much as it pains me I have to defend AG on this one. He talks about Jacko's first sentance (mis-identified by Dr Schlong) which states... . ."fly them down after their needed."

Referring to the F3s, the correct phrase would in fact be 'they are'.

Hate splitting hairs over something so trivial as this but you did jump on the anti-Guru bandwagon without cause this time!

[Jackonicko]

As my noble friend suggests, the possessive 'their' (the fire of the SAMs) is correct grammar, though that first 'their' was a slip, caused by angry typing. After your appalling grammar and lacklustre spelling on this and other threads, I'm surprised that you should choose to highlight such things. And no, I don't write for the Beano, as you can doubtless check, once you reach the required reading age. Besides which, I don't need to spell 'cos I have editors to do that for me!

But if you want to turn your attention to a more relevant subject, why not start with knowledge of the subject you discuss?

Even for a blunty, your ignorance of air power matters is unbelievable from someone who professes to have even the most cursory interest in aviation, let alone to be a commissioned officer in the RAF.

I don't wish you luck with your nav crossover, either. People often say that "you don't want to go to war with a w@nker on your wing." The description seems apposite, and I'd pity anyone who had to share a crew room with you, let alone fly with you. :)

[ 31 January 2002: Message edited by: Jackonicko ]</p>

[Not BVR]

Steady on. Don't lose your cool Jacko!! He's NOT wrong - check my above post and your first sentence!

[ 31 January 2002: Message edited by: Not BVR ]</p>

[Fox_4]

Jeeez Jacko, even with my self confessed appaling grammar, I would have to agree with Not BVR and AG unfortunately. Even after your edit you confess to being wrong that time. Suck it in and move on mate.

[Jackonicko]

Not BVR,

Caught it and edited my post to rid it of some of the spittle-flecked bile, before anyone could notice, except you, ace!

I'll buy you a beer next time I'm anywhere near St Andrews.......... <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

[Jambo Jet]

Why dont we end this thread. Its got very personal. If we dont like what AG has got to say then be a man and ignore him. He'll soon stop.

Remember Moderated by No-one means moderated by US.

[Archimedes]

Quite right, NotBVR. Should have read Jacko's post again <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> (although Dr S was absolutely correct about the 'their' he highlighted!)

Jambo - good idea. My last contribution to this thread.

[Jackonicko]

Hope I'm big enough to apologise to anyone who thinks I went overboard - but this bloke has really 'humped my hamster'. And low abuse always brings out the worst in me.

[intermeshing]

Diplomat,

As I recall it, the Brits and the French established settlements at about the same time (Port Egmont, Saunders Island, and Port Louis, North of Stanley, respectively) in the 1820s, but both were then ejected by some piratical Spanish outlaws from the forerunner of Argentina. These then plundered passing shipping until the USA got fed up with it, and the US Navy went in in about 1830, thus removing the Spaniards. Then the Brits went back in 1833 and stayed. Or at least that's how I remeber it from John Smith's excellent lectures down there. But I could be wrong...

And I reckon we are staying a) because the British Government still can't afford the political impact of not defending the islands again, and b) because it maintains the UK's claim on a big chunk of the oil and mineral rich South Atlantic and Antarctica (the extension to the Antactic Treaty now expires in 2047 - now that's forward thinking!)

[Admin Guru]

The Falklands chat continued at happy hour this week as well.. .Firstly, a good point from 'intermeshing'. Thank God for an informed response. But the question is... if the motives are financial ie the oil/mineral resources, do they justify the massive financial burdens of 2000 (?) people and many air assets in recent years and for the future. . .As for the colonialists argument - keep the Falklans British; but do we need an ageing fleet of F3s as an invasion deterrent. If the Argies are going to invade - and I personally don't see this happening - could they stop a persistent force?. .My view - save the money, keep Lyneham and V Sqn going.

Thoughts?

[6nandneutral]

Good God AG for once you have said something that I agree with "Keep Lyneham". <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

[ 01 February 2002: Message edited by: 6nandneutral ]</p>

[Jackonicko]

Deterrence is always a slightly dodgy concept. Who can predict with certainty what will deter a potential enemy?

But we're talking about deterrence (eg imposing an unacceptable cost on any enemy attempting to take the Falklands) and AD during the time required for reinforcement. We're not talking about four F.Mk 3s having to defeat an enemy invasion on their own. They don't have to stop a 'persistent invasion' on their own, they don't necessarily even have to guarantee holding out 'til the cavalry arrive. They merely have to threaten sufficient cost to the enemy to make the game not worth the candle.

And while the cost of the military presence on the Falklands may be high, that is because some of the forces there are there for training, rather than for the core mission of deterrence/defence. In my opinion, a four-jet det (equivalent to the Jag det at Incirlik) seems a relatively cost-effective solution to the political necessity of defending what good men died to recapture, and the economic necessity of keeping Britain's claims on South Atlantic oil and Antarctica's resources intact.

Moreover, the RAF in the Falklands is not facing an opponent equipped with F-15s, Mirage 2000s, Su-30s or MiG-29SMTs. Against the threat, the F.Mk 3 seems an entirely credible BVR fighter. The tragedy is that so much latent capability has not been 'activated' due to short-sighted budgetary constraints, while even in the primary air-to-air role there are obvious cheap improvements which could and should have been made.

[ 01 February 2002: Message edited by: Jackonicko ]</p>

[MrBernoulli]

I have done several stints in the Malvinas and I think the place is FAR more effort than its worth.

The Falklanders like it because its the biggest gravy train going. Can't abide the place meself!

[eviltwin]

If only the F3s would get their big jugs out it would release the tanker for more productive service! Four F3s aren't the only chicks we like to fill with juice.. .This place isn't really established as a training base (except for those officers with career captions, purple command blah blah blah). However, as a consequence of being here there are some exceptional training experiences to be had at little expense to el-taxopayer like you and me, now that can't be bad can it AG.. .Bangs for bucks without the hurt, not half.. .Spicey is dead cheap too.

[Max R8]

As a "Falklands War Vet", albeit in a very non-charging-up-Tumbledown-being-bombed/exoceted sort of way I can say I was proud as punch to have done my minor bit in '82 to see off the Argie aggressor. Since then I have also done several stints on Q helping defend the last vestige...etc...etc. I think our forces deployed down there should match the threat, which is arguable negligable but up to the politicos to decide. However, before we all die in a ditch over the rights of the locals to be Brit, can we consider how Maggie sold our Hong Kong citizens up the Yanktse and handed their soveriegnty to the people who brought you Tianamin Square, and how Tony is going to let 20,000 odd Gibraltarians "go" for the sake of a bit of Euro harmony. Both colonies had been treatied to the UK in perpituity (bar the new territories of course) and we probably had a stronger case in international law on them.

Just as long as we don't pretend that the principle is all that matters then the whole thing comes into perspective.

Sorry about the appollign spolling an' punktewashun, its very late.

[BEagle]

'Spicy' is about the only worthwhile reason for being in the Islas Malvinas! Yes - after the dictators clashed over the damn place in '82 we were right to eject the Argies by force - but that was nearly 20 years ago! Mission creep Malvinas? Absolutely!

PS - Captain Morgan's Spiced Gold is a good deal in the Akrotiri Duty Free shop as well!

[Admin Guru]

Basically I'm shocked.. .So far the only reasons that have been given are:

OIL. Don't we have plenty of this in the North sea, and in the new Atlantic field W of Shetland?

Manganese Nodules: What use are they?

Colonialism: Gentlemen please. We are not in the habit of imperial rule and "they don't like it up 'em."

Training value: Excuse for pilots to break UK LL Trg rules in a more flexible environment.

Spicy Rum: Seems to be the main reason for detachments down there. Is this a beer goggle substitute?

Islas Malvinas: Can we stick to topic please. I don't know where these places are, but I'm quite sure they're not relevant.

Are we planning to send 4 Eurofighters down here in two years time? (Or will all the experienced crews be kept in the UK - for The Air Defence of London?)

So apart from weak political reasoning I can see no other point of us being down there.

[OldBonaMate]

Wind-up Merchant!

<img src="wink.gif" border="0"> <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

[Jackonicko]

AG: Much enjoyed your Islas Malvinas joke.

But training value is a relevant factor. . .And so is defending the rights of the Falklanders.. .And so is oil. We don't have enough in the N.Sea (no such thing as enough).

And no-one of expects four EFs to be detached to the Falklands in two years. Many of us don't expect the damned thing to actually even be in frontline squadron service by then! The Falklands Flight will doubtless be the very last home of the F.Mk 3, just as Belize was for the Harrier GR.Mk 3, so no EF in the Falklands for the foreseeable.

[devilsadvocate666]

Admin Gwuwu,. .it all becomes clear now. Your last post was so completely retarded that you can't possibly be for real. 16 year olds flipping burgers for McD's in Manilla have better OS knowledge! Congratulationson a great jape - nearly 200 takers but now you can fcuk off.

<img src="cool.gif" border="0"> <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

[MrBernoulli]

Jackonicko

Oil? What oil? Thats a bloody ruse used to justify hanging onto the garrison. I do not decry the battles fought to get the place back from the Argies but the amount spent on garrisoning the place is NOT justified. Bloody nonsense.

[Megaton]

Didn't he say on one thread that he was a university graduate? If so, I'd like to hand mine back since they're apparently meaningless now.

[Taffmerlin]

Just joined the thread and see that AG is taking a bit of a battering. If he is so wrong, then I just wondered how much oil there was off Gib. I suspect there cannot be much, otherwise we would not be negotiating to give it away!

[SirToppamHat]

Admin Guru

Spicey = Cap'n Morgan's Spiced Rum.

A ridiculous price when I did my second 4 month stint 4 yrs ago. Two bottles of fizz to go with it cost more than the rum itself. Made a welcome change from Reds Whites Greens etc etc . . .

The worst thing about the FI is the fact that no-one in the UK gives a flying f**! about the quality of life down there. Facilities are cr@p, and cost of calls home extortionate for reasons various.

In fact the best thing that happened while I was there was a looney coming to rescue us in a small private plane. He brought tea bags (one for every serviceman) oranges (for vitamin C) and flour so we could make bread. Also had a petition signed by a load of Argies saying they wanted to be friends. Didn't get much of a welcome though, intercepted by an F3 then pounced on by the RIC when he landed and marched off to jail. Anyone out there remember it?

[eviltwin]

AG there is more to training than just low level flying, believe it or not. Come to think of it you'll probably only believe what a bloke said in the pub, rather than reasoned argument from men and women with experience.. .I imagine the hierarchy (god I love that word) would be very interested to here of the LL rules that are flexed here. I think that you will find that they are very much adhered to, and safety is indeed the number one priority.. .Ok so the airfield gets beat up fairly regularly, but we're all tax payers and we deserve to get a flypast whether we want one or not. <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

[cheapseat]

So where are you Evil Twin? <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

[eviltwin]

Cheapseat,. .In a far galaxy a long time ago...........

[DESPERADO]

Been away for a bit. Come back to PP and I find the whole site up in arms about somebody called Admin Guru.. .Read all your posts my friend. I have to say I was sitting on the fence as to whether or not you are for real or a wind-up merchant.

However, when I read your last post I fell off the fence, I am just very embarrassed that I hadn't figured it out earlier. I think you overplayed the gross stupidity bit and should of stuck with the outrageous sweeping statements, and the pompous controversy, they were really working well, and getting some large fish.

My guess is that you are definately aircrew; probably, because you seem to like navigators, a nav (too obvious?). And coz of all this Falklands drivel, an F3 mate. I bet you are one of those guys responsible for the in House Coningsby fanzine, Viz type thing that was going about a few years back (very very funny for anyone that hasn't seen it. Anyone remember what it was called?). . .I digress, I take my hat off to you sir for an outstanding wind-up and I look forward to your next topic with baited breath.

Please tell us if I guessed right. Then again, keep it up, never seen Jacko so excited.

[Ali Barber]

Desperado,

I think you're right; that last post was a giveaway. AG, you're going to have to try and work a little harder at the banter. I wait for the next AG topic with baited breath. Maybe we should start a "who is Admin guru" topic? <img src="cool.gif" border="0">

[UncleFester]

Well, after 42 years plus in the RAF, (Ancient Truckie!!) first in & last out in many places AG probably has never heard of I am astonished by his attitude and lack of knowledge. Firstly, if he has a geography degree, he should know that manganese nodules are a prime source of high grade magnesium, heard of this AG? It is used not only in the aviation and space environment but also indutry. manganese nodules have the highest ratio of metal to waste known so can be even more valuable than oil.

. .Secondly, is he really in the RAF? Happy hours are great fun for chest poking, beer swilling, slagging off, etc, but does he really believe everything he hears there. He either doesn't drink enough (he remembers what was said!!) or if he is a wannabe Nav....I wouldn't fly with him with that attitude....Me, I have 12000 hours+...not in bulldogs, not on auto-pilot, 21 different types, still slaggin off handbrake house and lovin it!! :) <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">

[Mach the Knife]

Desperado, the mag you refer to, I believe, was called The Irrigator (incorporating metal detecting monthly) an extremely original and very funny publication, my thanks to the XXIX personnel who brightened my time in the flat lands and risked certain posting to somewhere near Iceland if OC Admin ever found out who was responsible. ps do not confuse with the 43(F) Sqn attempt at a similar publication (The Cautious Cock)which was an incredible bunch of cr@p.. .Uncle Fester you are my hero (or you would be if you flew FJ's instead of trucks)I like your attitude.. . <img src="cool.gif" border="0">

[Admin Guru]

Right, here we go again. Firstly, manganese nodules - of course I didnt study them at uni in depth. I did a geography degree, not geology. You must have fun nights in reading about them! However, in the quest for knowledge, I have looked them up online. Your argument does not stand! The UK does not have exclusive rights to these and in fact we dont even mine them in sufficient quantity for it to be a large factor. In fact that is just the same as the oil argument. By the way thank you for informing me that aluminium is used in the aerospace industry. I thought it was lead. Tw@t!. .And before you come back with the lame oil argument agian, I know that the new oil fields west of shetland have more forecast oil than the falklands region. So we have enough to last us well into the next century, with an infrastructure already built to handle the production thanks to the N sea.. .Secondly, it seems that the opinions of young people in the RAF are dismissed readily because they haven`t got enough "time in". Young people such as myself have just as much to offer, especially new ideas - probably more so than FESTER! Who is stuck in his crusty old ways.

Oh and I am not a Nav but I have applied for my crossover (application waiting on my desk). I only hope when I get my brevet(even though i think they are elitist) my opinions will be listened to more than they are now.

<img src="mad.gif" border="0"> <img src="mad.gif" border="0">

[ 06 February 2002: Message edited by: Admin Guru ]</p>

[Admin Guru]

And another thing.

I had droped the pompous IOT style of posting because it was apparently not chatty enough for this God like forum. And my last post gets slated due it lacking credibility for its casual nature. MAKE YOUR MINDS UP CRETINS.

I have tried to change but have decided to stick with my original style of prose - whether it conforms or not. I think the Indian cricket chief was quoted in today's Telegraph as describing the English team as "Champion whiners." I think this is a VERY apt phrase for you lot.. .Please read my above post and coment constructively. Jacko - I let the mis-spelt 'opposite' (you said "apposite") go before but now I'm angry.. . <img src="mad.gif" border="0"> <img src="mad.gif" border="0"> <img src="mad.gif" border="0">

[Megaton]

[quote] Islas Malvinas: Can we stick to topic please. I don't know where these places are, but I'm quite sure they're not relevant. <hr></blockquote>

So much for your geography degree. :)

And do you really not know what "apposite" means?

Point for JN: only use words with one syllable.

[ 06 February 2002: Message edited by: Ham Phisted ]</p>

[Jackonicko]

AG, mate, might I draw your attention to the maxim: ‘Proper Planning Prevents **** -Poor Performance’. In other words, why don’t you check before you gab on and make yourself look foolish? I didn’t when I defended my typo (their instead of they’re, as I recall), but fortunately had time to edit my post and backtrack a tad. Hope the following grammatical advice will be ‘constructive’ enough for you, however.

When I referred to the phrase ‘****** on your wing’ being apposite, I meant apposite. Not opposite. Please check before correcting my spelling.

Apposite, as in ‘apt, well suited for the purpose, appropriate’. Look it up in a dictionary if you need further clarification.

And while you’re at it, how about didn’t (not didnt), again (not agian), Shetlands (cap S), Falklands (cap F), North Sea (not sea) and please tidy up the sentence: “And my last post gets slated due it lacking credibility for its casual nature.” I’m modern and with it and recognise that stylistically there may be justifications for beginning a sentence with the word ‘and’, but the rest is a bit untidy. Do you mean ‘due to its lacking credibility’ or ‘because it lacks credibility due to its casual nature’....?

I don't know where you got your Geography degree, but can only assume that it was a former Poly that has hit fairly hard times, since most Universities still demand a better standard of written English than you display. I'm horrified that Cranwell do not have a higher standard, too.

With regard to the oil and other natural reserves around the Falklands and in Antarctica (which our ‘posession’ of the Falklands gives us some claim to) it is a simple fact that a country like ours can never have too much oil, and the potential oil wealth in the South Atlantic (which remains unclear) cannot simply be set aside. Just because we still have untapped reserves in the North Sea does not mean that we can or should ignore other potential reserves. Because you eat breakfast in the Mess doesn’t mean that you won’t also want lunch in the Feeder.

And it’s not because you’re young that people slag you off, it’s because you open your mouth before you engage your brain. Young people’s energy and enthusiasm and ‘freshness’ often means that their contribution is useful, but there’s a difference between being an enthusiastic ideas man and an embittered and arrogant gob-*****. I don’t know you, but I’d lay odds that ‘crusty’ Uncle Fester is worth a dozen of you.. . :)

[EESDL]

I'm abusing EESDL's handle since YET AGAIN he has left a console logged on!. .1. Fester IS an and bold aviator and has some valid points. . .2. AG is a complete nob. . .3. Perhaps Danny will unmask the tw@t if he continues his personal assaults on all and sundrie for their responses, most of which are generally constructive. The others are justified in their vociferous reactive comment to absolute twaddle.. .4. AG do the service a favour and resign, if you are actually a member.

AGAIN THESE ARE NOT EESDL'S comments but a guest who is so pi%%ed off with AG's mindless wind ups!

[C130KBloke]

Hi Gang;

18 years in the mob...12 as truckie aircrew (the kind that do not get the FRI!!!). I take my hat off (when I wear it) to campaign aviators like Fester...I probably know him, just gotta work it out.

As for the other bits of threads going on....

AG...you are a prizeT****R Sir..if you are worthy of the respect.

Falklands...I loved it ...on each of my three tours it has been different but great.

FRI...What a load of cobblers....from chatting in the crewroom, even the Royals don't get a great deal (except for a few!!). I wouldn't fancy giving up my pension rights till 55. Me...I'm waiting with baited breath to see what A**e they offer us Baldricks.

Spelling.....Stuff you all. I don't do ISS...except for 'In Swindon Shopping'.

Grammar...I'll leave that to Jacko and AG!!!. . <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> <img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> :) <img src="cool.gif" border="0">

[6nandneutral]

I feel I must re-quote . ."Islas Malvinas: Can we stick to topic please. I don't know where these places are, but I'm quite sure they're not relevant.", as it's the funniest line that I've seen closely followed by " a hedgehog and it's extended family.". .Uncle Fester welcome to PP, had many a good route with you especially Kuantan in Malasia about '92.. .I don't like swearing on PP but to use your own words AG you are the tw@t.

<img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> <img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> <img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> . .Edited due to the lack of a good spellchucker.

[ 08 February 2002: Message edited by: 6nandneutral ]</p>

[Barn Doors]

Admin Guru?! What sort of self-proclaimed, ego enhancing handle is that! I've read, with interest I may add, your posts over the past few days and I really think your attitude stinks. What do you want? This space is here for people with a genuine interest in "Military" aviation. You, on the other hand, use it to get people's backs up. They are people who DO work hard, work highly un-sociable hours quite frequently and you, a so-called "supporter", have the dis-respect to mock!?

We are tired of you, go to the "administration" forum if you are what you say you are.

BD

[Dan Winterland]

Anyway, at a risk of being boring and returning to the original subject of the Falklands, I would like to quote Dr Samuel Johnson, on hearing the Islands had been captured from Spain in 1770.

"We have maintained the honour of the crown and the superiority of our influence. Beyond this, what have we acquired? What, but a bleak and gloomy solitude, an island thrown aside from human use, stormy in winter and barren in summer: an island which not even the southern savages have dignified with habitation: where a garrison must be kept in a state that contemplates the exiles of Siberia: of which the expense will be perpetual and the use only occasional: and which, if fortune smile upon our labours, may become a nest of smugglers in peace, and in war the refuge of future buccaneers".

What a jolly astute chap he was!

[Overstretch]

JN/AG

Advantage JN

AG

That's (as in that is) magnesium not aluminium therefore potentially hugely valuable if not yet economic to extract from the seabed around FI. . . .Dan

You blew that one. You should have saved the author and date until last, or even a later post!!. .PS How's life?

[West Coast]

Hey Jacko. .A word of caution, you mentioned holding on to the islands for the potential gas and oil assets. The US was beat up by the liberal media for fighting a war to do the same a little over a decade ago. A world war was fought in part to control natural assets.. .BTW, that humped my hampster comment had me rolling, you Brits....

[G.Khan]

If AG hates all air-crew so much why does he want to be a Nav.?

Won't he fail the apptitude tests anyway, "wrong attitude"?! <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

Any worthwhile degree in geography includes a hefty section on geology, (as does 'O' level geography).

[ 09 February 2002: Message edited by: G.Khan ]</p>

[Luca_brasi]

Is it true that Argentina invaded because the HMS Invincible and sister ship had been sold and delivered (or were on the way) to Australia??

[Admin Guru]

G Khan - I hope that attitude does not come into the Aptitude (sp) tests seeing as they are all computer based, hand/eye and mental arithmatic based programs. It would be hard to fail those based on my opinions would it not? <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">

Again people feel the need to slate my education! My geography degree did not HAVE to contain an inordinate amount of geology! Especially not to the depths of manganese nodules. It was actually based more on political geography I will have you know.

<img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

By the way if you actually do know about these nodules would you mind telling me whether they are hydrogenous or hydrothermal or diagenetic because they all have very different mineral components, some more useful than others.

I rest my case. 2(1) is exactly what it says on my scroll!

<img src="wink.gif" border="0">

[Ed Winchester]

AG,

Glad to see that you are keeping this thread alive by pointing out more spelling errors.

By the way, I think you will find it is arithmetic. <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

[Ed Winchester]

Oh, and whilst you are resting your case, perhaps you could explain why manganese nodules have to be hydrogenouos or hydrothermal or diagenetic. The terms are not mutually exclusive, Einstein.

[Megaton]

Don't do it, don't get involved, you're only making it worse for everyone. I can't help it, I can't help myself...

Political geograpy, was it? Didn't tell you much about the Islas Malvinas then? Or was that not political enough for you?

And, by the way, these forums do not belong to you so they are not your forums.

[quote] Jacko - Thanks for YET again pointing out my error that you so clearly and eloquently repeated on myother forum. <hr></blockquote>

You may have started a thread on Danny's BB but we are all here under sufferance.

[bootscooter]

excellent work AG, let us know how selection goes. You're absolutely right, attitude is not taken into account at OASC....yuk,yuk,yuk :)

[Megaton]

I'm surprised they let him through Cranwell in the first place. Soccer really isn't an Officer's sport. :)

[WE Branch Fanatic]

In reply to Luca

Yes there was some truth in your question, John Nott's Defence White Paper in 1981 included such great ideas as selling both the carriers the Royal Navy had at the time, and the ambphibious ship and much else. By doing that the Argentine dictatorship got the idea that a) the UK wouldn't be willing to fight and b) we wouldn't be able to recover the Falkland's anyway.

So they invaded, and a thousand lives were lost, laregly due to the bean counters...

[G.Khan]

So which university are we talking about here AG?. .A BSC Hons. degree from Cambridge, in geography, will not leave you asking questions about nodules!

So, sorry, I can't spell "aptitude" but, fortunately for me, Biggen Hill said I had it!

If you dislike the manners of aircrew so much what makes you think that any pilot will want you on his crew?

[Big Tudor]

AG

Just to point out the value of oil. The North Sea has approx. 50 years supply left before it is as good as empty. If proof of this statement is required then the number of drilling and production platforms that are being mothballed years before the end of their life should suffice.. .The new fields discovered west of Shetland are of a different viscosity and, therefore, cannot be processed in the current refineries without major modifications.. .The world is still reliant on oil from the Middle East which does not sit comfortably with a lot of western governments. Hence the need to explore for more oil deposits in order to remove the dependancy on that area for supplies.. .As has been pointed out, the South Atlantic is a rich source of oil. However, drilling and production from this area is not easy and will require some serious development work before it can be a viable proposition.. .As to the value of keeping a military presence in FI to defend this oil reserve. Try multiplying $30 per barrel by 120,000 barrels per day then multiply by the number of years the oil fields will produce for. And finally multiply that by the number of production platforms that will be in operation. Result = shed loads of money and less reliance on Middle Eastern oil.

Source of info = my brother, senior manager, Shell UK. All in the public domain but couldn't be bothered searching since he knows it all off the top of his head.

Could give a rats gonad about the spelling so don't waste your keyboard slagging it off.

[Megaton]

To sum up then, I think we can fairly safely say, without fear of contradiction, that:

a. AG's knowledge of Air Power is sadly lacking.. .b. His English grammar and vocabulary are somewhat limited.. .c. He is deficient in his self-proclaimed specialist subject of political geography.. .d. He's an admin officer.. .e. He's an admin officer (or did I say that already?).

:) :) :)

[keiysersaucy]

If paying taxes guaranteed protection by the uk government to it's loyal subjects, could someone explain the present governments policy of selling Gibraltar and N Ireland down the river!

[Jackonicko]

Economic benefeits of potatoes and monkeys less obvious than oil and penguins?

[Megaton]

What kind of monkeys do they have in NI? :)

[Ed Winchester]

SH Monkeys - a vicious breed! <img src="eek.gif" border="0">

[Admin Guru]

Ed

In answer to your question, they are mutually exclusive in that they cannot be a mixture of more than one type. In retrospect, a better placed comma would have made the sentance grammatically better, but I was just trying to achieve the 'chatty, aircrew style' (paraphrasing before someone checks) that I was slated for after my initial post.. .As for Jacko, I note no-one picks him up for claiming that Gib was just about monkeys or Northern Ireland about potatoes. Imagine the thraping I would have received if I had come out with that crap. . .Big Tudor. .My source of information about North Sea oil, a drilling consultant in the North Sea. I rest my case.

[andrewc]

I'm not inclined to think that Admin Guru is. .simply a troll.

It comes down to real-politic, losing the islands. .now - after the 1982 War - would bring down the government.

The RAF presence is a visible token that the UK is taking the FI seriously and its control should not be casually messed with.

There are a raft of good secondary reasons for holding onto the islands,. .- Islander's self determination,. .- Antartican treaty rights via South Georgia,. .- long term oil and mineral rights,

However the real truth is that while there is a. .politician alive who was active in 1982 we will. .not let go of the Falklands,

-- Player of Games

[Jackonicko]

AG:

Another couple of words for you to look up in your Children's Dictionary:

Humour. .Joke

I was inferring that there was nothing like such a pressing UK 'interest' in either Ireland nor Gibraltar - though in fact, I don't think that either is necessarily being 'sold down the river' and I believe that there is a recognition in Government as to why this should not happen.

There! But Monkeys and Potatoes was at least funny!

[SACSmith]

Taking into account Argentina's current slide into economic oblivion, are they in any fit state to try and invade the Falklands again? Even if their economy recovers, surely they'd know better than to take on the British Armed Forces again when we've already kicked their a*ses. The presence of all 3 services in FI should be scaled down to a minimum, this would aid retention etc and free up manpower for more important causes, like RESINATE SOUTH/NORTH.

[6nandneutral]

AG please don't just rest your case go the whole hog and rest in peace

[Chimbu chuckles]

AG a question for you.

What would all the British assets currently ensconced in Islas Malvinas be doing if they were back in Blighty?

I would suggest to you that they would be training at much the same rate they are now. That being the case the only additional expences are those associated with the remote nature of their basing.

Sounds like cheap insurance against the 'Leaders' of Argentina deciding that another war is a good way to divert the attention of the people from their current woes.

And put a price on the quality of the training that can be accomplished in the uncrowded airspace around IM.

Factor all the other stuff about minerals etc in and it all sounds like good value to me.

I am not and never have been a Mil Pilot but I find myself in uncharacteristic agreement with them........you're a TW@T!!!

. .Chuck. :)

PS While I'm not a purveyor of things wot go bang(although I have flown 'tactically'to avoid being shot, and had tracer fired at me) I note your assertion way back about your PPL experience giving you all the insight you believe you need to judge the efforts of experienced pilots! Please re-read my last comment above.....very carefully!!!!!

[Whipping Boy's SATCO]

AG, returning to your opening comments on this thread, I think you will find that ASI is used for rather more than just being a stepping stone to the Falklands. Ask anyone who has been to Central Africa on Ops over the last few years.

As for all the other verbage, it does not deserve response.

[Admin Guru]

Chimbu. Great idea about training; if it's just all the associated costs that are the problem, then why worry? Perhaps we should stick some GR4s out in the Alps, because there's probably some great LL training to be had there. Etc Etc.

Monkey Boy. .Glad whybegood is well, the old git. Has his stairlift arrived yet? Hmmm as for SH Monkey, I'm thinking L**** or BS. (By the way, reveal the identity of the SHQ I work in and never have another 1771 completed again!)

[St Johns Wort]

SH Monkey

Where've you been? You can tell me who he is mate, I wont tell a sole!. .P.S. Wannabe my driver again.....please! <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

[Ed Winchester]

St John's Wart,

D'ya get me card? Drop me a line sometime, you daft auld giffer.

http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/smokin.gif

SH Monkey,

Hope you'll be changing yer moniker soon, you'll be giving us diehard chimps a bad name.

http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/Gif/SPphil.gif

[PercyDragon]

SH Monkey

I like your 'guiness drinking happy face' gremlin. How do you do that?

[Archimedes]

PD,

Right click on the litte Guinness smilie; left click on 'properties', and lo! - you should see the URL for Stopstart's excellent site which has a whole array of them.

[hypersonic hotwings]

<a href="http://www.falklands.gov.fk/oildept.htm" target="_blank">http://www.falklands.gov.fk/oildept.htm</a>

As stated above... OIL is the carrot that the government has one eye one. see above link.

[The Brown Bottle]

Right, I'm not falling for the wind-up, merely making a point. Its not just the Falklands, its the fact we have South Georgia also. This means we get that rather large slice of the pie when Antarctica is divided up. At the moment I believe there is an agreement which forbids the exploitation of the continent, this is subject to review. The spoils will be divided between those whose territory is in the region, therefore suddenly the UK has a border which stretches from the Falklands to South Georgia. The subsequent rape of the environment should benefit us enormously.. .Incidentally, not interested in corrections as a Mr Thicky D.E.