Class 'D' airspace radio procedures

[Jazzy78910]

Hey, I'm currently working towards a PPL and have an upcoming nav flight that takes me into Class 'D', specifically Maroochydore. I'm proficient with the procedures of Class 'C' airspace, having transited it a few times in previous Navs, but find myself a little unsure with the Class 'D' non-radar CTR procedures.

I've had a read of Airservices AIP GEN-3.4, but am still a little unsure if I'm on the right track. Here's the kind of calls that I'd consider making:


"Maroochy Tower, C172 ABC, is Ewan Maddock Damn, at 2500 on descent to 1500, inbound, received ATIS, request clearance"

Arrival request taxi to parking:
"Maroochy Ground, C172 ABC, for the GA Apron"

Request departure airways clearance:
Maroochy Ground, C172 ABC, is GA Apron for DEST, 2POB, received ATIS, request airways clearance"

Request desparture taxi clearance:
"Maroochy Ground, C172 ABC, is GA Apron for DEST, request taxi"

Departure Report:
"Maroochy tower, C172 ABC, departs at TIME, tracking 252, climbing to 4500, estimating DEST at TIME"

Any assistance or thoughts would be appreciated,
Jarrad

[SM227]

I believe that if you dont have a flight plan lodged, your first call in class D is "Maroochy TWR, ABC, inbound details"

[Jazzy78910]

I forgot to mention, I will have a flight plan and SARTIME lodged. :)

[goldypilot]

i dnt think marrochy has a ground freq dude. just cheack that one in ur ERSA. with what ya got there u should figure it out once in the air. if it all goes to **** just talk plain english to the guy and he will help u. after all its only another person on the other end. good luck big fella

[rioncentu]

Jazzy

With your inbound call, you will need to give the POB and your ETA.

But as someone else said, call first, even with a plan in the system with "Maroochy Tower, ABC with inbound details"


And with your departure call you don't need your estimate for xyz unless ifr.

Have fun.

[prop-wash]

Jazzy,
MC guys and gals are a good bunch of folk. Tower is 124.4, SMC and Clearance Delivery on 121.7. Take the time to look at the ERSA entry for aerodrome layout, and be especially careful not to taxi via the RPT apron as this is a restricted area.

As for your radio calls, technically as per AIP you should give your estimate for the first turning point or destination if tracking direct, but they won't chase you for it if you forget. Also in addition to your radial tracking you should append what it is reference to, eg vor / ndb / arp. "ABC departed xx, tracking 242 reference the vor, climbing A0xx, dest xx.

Normal procedure for VFR (low performance) flights, your level is to be cleared inbound or outbound at or below A040 as this reduces the coordination between the tower and BN CTR. Any further questions, just PM me as I have some inside knowledge.

P-W.

[Capn Bloggs]

Request departure airways clearance:
Maroochy Ground, C172 ABC, is GA Apron for DEST, 2POB, received ATIS, request airways clearance"
"Maroochy Ground, ABC to DEST, Request Clearance". GEN 5.14.2 item 2

Request desparture taxi clearance:
"Maroochy Ground, C172 ABC, is GA Apron for DEST, request taxi"
"ABC, POB 2, Received ATIS, GA Apron, Request Taxi". GEN 5.14.4 item 1.

Note: there are a lot of optional items in the AIP taxi call. IMO your destination is not required as you have already got a clearance for it, nor would be the SSR code as you may have already been given it; if so you would have read it back. Skipper's pilots note! :}

Departure Report:
"Maroochy tower, C172 ABC, departs at TIME, tracking 252, climbing to 4500, estimating XXXX [first reporting point] at TIME"
Almost! :D
ABC, Departed Time, Tracking 252 (from the VOR/NDB if using it for tracking), Climbing to 4500, Estimating DEST At Time". GEN 5.14.8 item 3.

(you're already on the tower freq - no need to name them again)

Remember: It's "taxiing", "tracking" and "Departed" :ok:

Good luck and good to see someone keen on getting their calls right at last. Maybe you're the start of the new breed, Jazzy! :E

[Dick Smith]

It is indeed fortunate that all of this pathetic complexity will go when we move to FAA NAS class D procedures as per the CASA instruction to AsA.

Why ever would a VFR aircraft have to give a departure call- there is just a chance that ATC would actually see the aircraft depart!

Oh, I know! To make the airspace look busy and complex!

[Capn Bloggs]

Why ever would a VFR aircraft have to give a departure call- there is just a chance that ATC would actually see the aircraft depart!

Oh, I know! To make the airspace look busy and complex!
Pathetic's right...

[Capt Claret]

Why ever would a VFR aircraft have to give a departure call- there is just a chance that ATC would actually see the aircraft depart!

Perhaps the tower controller has other aircraft to watch & control, and can't spend several minutes watching Bloggs (not Capn) wander for a bit of a scenic before s/he actually sets course.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Gee Bloggsy,

I just dunno....ya try and help a guy out, with very NICE refs. 'n all, etc etc
:ok:
Then some A#%&'ole just comes in outta the sun............ :}:yuk:

I just dunno nomore......:sad::sad:

Seems some 'people' just carn't help themselves.....:=:=

But I CAN say that 'WE' used to record the DEP time the PIC gave, as sometimes (often?) they would actually climb out and DEP from 'Over The Top'....where we couldn't see them....it was those bloody big tin rooves ya know....:uhoh:

[LeadSled]

Dick,
Good grief, have you no compassion.

Think of the mental anguish, the pain, the suffering, the torment of Australia genuinely going to ICAO standards. How would we ever survive without the 5 to 10 times as many "radio phraseologies" as required by ICAO Annex X, Vol. II (or US/UK/Canada/NZ/etc etc).

Heavens above, we might even be in danger of using Marconi's wonderful invention for "communications", instead of a device for precisely publicly regurgitating correctly chosen aeronautical set phrases by rote, at carefully regulated times and places. Don't you understand Marconi's theory of acoustic lift, as soon a you stop talking, the aeroplane stops flying --- also known as the "flapping lip" theory of flight.

Next you will want flying to be as simple and straight forward as US (or UK/NZ/Canada/France etc etc etc), we don't really want people to be encouraged to fly, do we?? I thought it was supposed to be as difficult as possible, so the select Darwinian survivors can all be Captain Marvels.

Tootle pip!!

[Knackers]

Jazzy,

I think you should drop the "Damn".

[ZappBrannigan]

Why ever would a VFR aircraft have to give a departure call- there is just a chance that ATC would actually see the aircraft depart!For ongoing situational awareness for the pilot flying, other aircraft in the area, and for ATC. Lets everyone know what you're doing, confirms to everyone that you're doing what you should be doing, and is another checking mechanism that you are executing your departure correctly. There's no underlying conspiracy.

Same with CTAFs on lovely CAVOK days - not about to drop my IFR departure call just because other aircraft can see me, and ATC "knows" what I'm about to do (and possibly has me identified on radar anyway). And I give an IFR-identical departure call on the CTAF freq when departing VFR - I just don't give it to Centre.

[SM227]

Departure calls are also handy for jogging the controlers memory when you have been told to 'maintain runway heading' and they hav'nt gave you any more instructions since you took off 5 min ago! :}

[Dick Smith]

Why then arn't they then required at our busy GAAP airports?

[Capn Bloggs]

Because they are not necessary, since GAAP is predominately a BUGSMASHER operation where some RT calls are not required. You see Dick, Australia for years has had a graded, tailored airspace system commensurate with the risk that makes your ICAO/Yank one-size-fits-all NAS arrangements look very average. :ok:

[mostlytossas]

I find I agree with Lead and Dick here. Less unnecessary yap the better.
This coming Sunday will be a good case in point at the Jamestown airshow and fly in. Can you imagine the chaos that will occur if every VFR aircraft makes a departure report. Not only will it clog the airways for important calls but in any case nobody can possible keep track of dozens of aircraft taking off line astern.
You don't fly with your lip,so keep it shut unless really necessary and get your eyes out of the cockpit.

[Howabout]

Bloggs,

Take large wooden mallet, go to garage, then repeatedly hit yourself in head with the implement. If brick walls are in proximity, then repeatedly bash head against same.

It's more fun that arguing with fundamentalists.

[Jazzy78910]

Thanks for the info guys, I appreciate the input.

Looks like the old "Aviate, Navigate, Communicate" holds true eh?

[Capn Bloggs]

Mostlytossas,
Less unnecessary yap the better.
I absolutely agree. Unfortunately, normally the "unnecessary" yap comes from those who don't know what the other party needs to hear (aka standard R/T)and therefore they yap unnecessarily, clogging up the airwaves to get the message across.:=

This coming Sunday will be a good case in point at the Jamestown airshow and fly in.
My point exactly. That is why there will be no Class D tower there, nor at many other busy smasher airfields. It's not necessary and probably wouldn't work. Then again you're unlikely to find a RPT jet there either.

Howabout,
Malletting commencing! Thump :ugh: thump :ugh: thump :ugh:

Jazzy,
Looks like the old "Aviate, Navigate, Communicate" holds true eh?
Don't worry, if you learn bad habits from Dick et al, we'll soon set you right when you become a professional pilot! :ok::D

[mostlytossas]

What's a professional pilot pray tell????
Someone who fly's with a attitude to do everything right,or someone who does it for payment,or is it someone who sits up front of one of those big shiny thingys flying in almost entirely CTA where everything is planned and organised for them while they they winge about how the industry is stuffed and they are not respected anymore?

[twisties]

Interesting...

Sensible question that seems to have been hijacked some.

Jazzy I am sure ATC and other pilots at MC will appreciate your preparation and professional RT.

[ARFOR]

Mr Smith,
Why ever would a VFR aircraft have to give a departure call- there is just a chance that ATC would actually see the aircraft depart!
ATC might well do, they might not also.

There are a few differences between the GAAP and a proper class D in Australia, and that of the FAA system.

1. The GAAP is generally a 3nm zone, a Class D is generally 5-8nm (think Visual range from the tower)
2. The GAAP does not have associated Climb and Descent airspace surrounds, a class D generally does (up to A045-A085)
3. The GAAP is a non-radar tower, so is the Australian Class D, FAA D towers are generally radar equipped
4. The GAAP do not have dedicated Approach and Departures radar, Australian Class D combine Tower, Approach and Departures, FAA D towers (up to 2,500ftAGL) have dedicated separate Approach and Departures TRACON, and in many cases separate Clearance Delivery services

Why the differences? in simplistic terms, funding and total traffic operations at each location. Australian class D handles large numbers of Regular Public Transport Aircraft (by comparison to the average US FAA class D), and generally less overall traffic. It therefore stands to reason that efficiencies in service application can be made in Australia, such as combined Tower and Approach services.

Cost difference of providing each?

From what I have observed, you take no time to understand nor accept the repeated explainations provided by Australian controllers of what they do and why. Pilots who operate regularly in those regional airspace areas seem to understand readily.
Oh, I know! To make the airspace look busy and complex!
You are not qualified to make that statement Mr Smith. You do yourself no favours by making such silly comments.

mostlytossas

You last post was insightful. Is the pseudonym a hint to deliberate tomfoolery? or self reflecting?

[Dick Smith]

CAPN BLOGGS

Bloggsy
I love your absolute confidence in the ability of government bureaucracies to act correctly. You seem to have forgotten what happened in the old Soviet Union. I love your comment,

You see Dick, Australia for years has had a graded, tailored airspace system commensurate with the risk that makes your ICAO/Yank one-size-fits-all NAS arrangements look very average

Bloggsy, re your comment on Jamestown and why you believe there wasn’t a tower there, you seem to have also forgotten that at both Birdsville and at Bathurst, control towers were put in for the races until I stopped this ridiculous waste of money and safety-reducer going ahead.

I well remember the NOTAM for Bathurst recommended that aircraft should fly to Orange or, in fact, any other airport if they didn’t want to be delayed. Of course, those were the days when Air Traffic Control actually separated VFR from VFR.


ARFOR
FAA Class D towers are not generally radar equipped – Class D in the USA is for a non-radar tower. In the US just as in Australia, some of their D towers do have a radar situation display, but the tower controllers are not radar rated and the radar cannot be used for separation purposes.

My estimate is that at least one third of the 350 US Class D towers do not have a radar display as the airspace is not covered by radar.

Your comment:

Australian class D handles large numbers of Regular Public Transport Aircraft (by comparison to the average US FAA class D)

is absolute rubbish.

The USA has many Class D towers which have a similar traffic mix to our Rockhampton, Alice Springs or Launceston.

ARFOR, just like Bloggsy, you are doing everything you can to keep the status quo. What do you think of the CASA decision, which I understand is in writing, that Airservices is to move all non-radar towers to US FAA Class D NAS procedures? Are you going to continue to hide behind anonymity, or are you actually going to say something under your own name so you will be listened to? Or do you really expect CASA to take notice of anonymous entities posting on PPRuNe?

[Capn Bloggs]

Dick,

you seem to have also forgotten that at both Birdsville and at Bathurst, control towers were put in for the races until I stopped this ridiculous waste of money and safety-reducer going ahead.
FGS, that was almost 20 years ago! Let it go, will ya!

safety-reducer
You won't be supporting the new towers at Karratha and Broome then?

Or do you really expect CASA to take notice of anonymous entities posting on PPRuNe?
Err, who said they were? I thought the NPRM process was the appropriate method of feedback to CASA. And no, I won't be submitting under "Capn Bloggs".;)

Anyway, thread drift. Stick to the radio calls, boy!:D

[Dick Smith]

Bloggsy

Yes, almost twenty years ago an enormous amount of money saved and without one accident resulting! At that time, there were people resisting the removal of those towers.

I totally support new towers at Karratha and Broome if they comply with a sensible cost/benefit formula.

Hopefully the new towers will be E with D below, and most importantly the E replacing the D when the tower controller is off duty. This means we will have the safety of a full IFR control service twenty-four hours per day.

[C-change]

Jazzy,

Disregard most of the waffle and give the staff at YBMC Twr a call. I'm pretty confident they'll help you out.

[OZBUSDRIVER]

Just a minute...Bathurst was designated class C and limited ONLY to IFR CHTR because back then it was very popular as was Birdsville at the time...it had nothing to with restrictions for restriction sake...it just got so busy that the place was running out of room.

I well remember the NOTAM restricting VFR ops for the races...it had nothing to do with control issues just space issues in a given timeframe. Had nothing to do with you,Smith....more like the change to GroupA and the coming of the internationalised race that interest dropped off...no holdens and ford V8s mate:} That and the recession we had to have...

Jazzie, you are showing good airmanship...you will go far in this industry with your professional attitude:ok:

As for the dill who tries to hijack a thread on CURRENT procedures...Dick, I think you have worn out your welcome...once again....and again...and again..

EDIT to add THE most important reason for Bathurst....Oz Iron going hard all day:ok: Not the same anymore...no more 8 and 10 laps in front, no more different classes of traffic making for interesting moves...that AND getting rid of the left hander at the end of Conrod with a high speed wiggle and giggle

[ARFOR]

Mr Smith,

If you are to have any credibility you must compare apples with apples. So let’s narrow down the equivalents

Compare;

1. FAA D towers at class 1 licensed Air Carrier airports, as is the equivalent case at all current Australian class D regional airports, then compare those airports IFR (>7t) movements (see 4. below).

2. If as you suggest FAA D towers (with radar) do not use the radar for separation, what pray tell is it used for? That is the second hint!

3. You seem to have overlooked the Approach and Departures TRACON associated with FAA D towers that fit 1. above. The overall number of FAA D towers is superfluous to this comparison as they are not servicing the same traffic mix, or volume of large Air Carrier/Regular Public Transport Aircraft as Class D Regional towers in Australia.

4. Are you familiar with the IFR AC/RPT/PTO comparison data between Class 1 American Airports and those servicing RPT/PTO (greater than 30 pax seat capacity) in Australia? I suggest you find out, the result will shock you with a CAPITAL Class C
The USA has many Class D towers which have a similar traffic mix to our Rockhampton, Alice Springs or Launceston.
Apart from Guam and Hawaii, list for us the number of mainland US Class D airports with IFR Air Carrier (licensed for >30 pax seat capacity) that are moving more IFR (> 7t) than Australian Class D regional towers?

Then list for us the number of US Class D TRSA, C and B airports moving less IFR (> 7t) that Australian Class D regional towers? The data is readily available!
What do you think of the CASA decision, which I understand is in writing, that Airservices is to move all non-radar towers to US FAA Class D NAS procedures?
It matters not what I think, the decision should be based on solid cost and safety benefit analysis untainted by political interference, not simply because a freshly minted Wyatt Erp is spraying Winchester edicts around like a skull possessed!

I ask, where is the process and analysis?

Never assume Mr Smith that contributors here are not voicing their view elsewhere. As I mentioned once before, you cannot cherry pick which anonymous contributions are valid based on alignment with your agenda. As is the case with the expat yank former Airbus driving Mustang man Duke, their views are no more or less valid or invalid because they choose anonymity on the forum. Wouldn’t you agree?

[Flopt]

What Cptn Bloggs said plus.....

If a first timer, be ready to write down your taxi clearance.....They can be amazingly long winded at YBMC , for a 'little' airport.

eg " ABC cleared taxi via taxiway delta to holding point alpha RW18 , hold short RW12 ,caution R22 hovertaxiing to 'beckers south'.

When you read back the clearance make sure you read back the taxiway, holding point, runway, hold short instruction,acknowledge the traffic, and if you don't happen to guess where 'becker's south' is ,ask them!

Have the ERSA open at the correct page in case they want you to hold short at bravo2 just to be different!Or taxi via delta and echo to holding point juliet RW12.

But above all ..........be prepared and have fun!

Flopt.

[ARFOR]

Jazzy

Forgot to mention. Ignore all the airspace category tech stuff, as Flopt and others have said, do the small amount of prep needed, if your not sure ask ATC, but most importantly stay relaxed, and enjoy. If your timing is right, you will get up close experience with all sorts of interesting traffic, from A320's, to helo's to Lear's etc, all in a safe ATC environment.

Also, appologies for the techo thread drift.

[Frank Arouet]

Civil Aviation Safety Authority - Project AS 09/19 (http://www.casa.gov.au/scripts/nc.dll?WCMS:PWA::pc=PC_93438)

[Howabout]

It's interesting to note that CASA, in its recent aeronautical study at Alice, sees no need to change the architecture of C over D. Common sense prevails with respect to cost/benefit and risk.

[ARFOR]

How ironic the timing. The message might be sinking in with government and the CASA

History
15 Oct 2009

Project AS 09/19 - Amendments to CASR Part 172 Manual of Standards
Project approved.

Project Objective
The objective is to complete a Notice of Proposed Change for an up-to-date edition of the Part 172 MoS by 10 December 2009.

Presumably the CASA and SCC will provide the Part 172 drafts and other applicable documents to industry for comment in a timely fashion.

[ARFOR]

Mr Smith,

Let me help you!

http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Order/7400.9.pdf

A tantalising hint, in the spirit of cross ocean friendship and awareness.

Let us know when you are ready for instalment 2

[ARFOR]

Mr Smith,

Part 139 Certification – Classes of Airports (http://www.faa.gov/airports/airport_safety/part139_cert/?p1=classes)

US Class 1 Airports (Scheduled Air Carrier >30 seats)

- How many have FAA D and E airspace associated?
- How do the Large aircraft IFR numbers compare to Australian D and C locations?

Let us know if you cannot find the data!

[Gippsland Flyer]

I note as a new user that this forum, like many others contains everything from concise and useful information to useless self gushing rubish. I guess that sums up our society generally; however. As a GA pilot of some 40 years I have always found controllers to be most helpful if you have done your best to comply with the process. Whether some poeple beleive that too much talk on the radio causes confusion, I for one believe that it is better to communicate more than less - with the proviso that is relates to safety and the ciscumstances at hand. I am keen to see how CASA prepare the pilots of Australia for new Class D; especially us poor unfortunate second class VFR pilots.:cool:

[Lookleft]

My pet hate is the RPT blokes (who should know better) when they are on a SID e.g. HB and LST when they waffle on with "tracking on the blah blah radial blah blah" when all they have to give is the SID identifier. If you are not going to give an enroute position report, because you will be radar identified, you don't have to give an estimate for a reporting point you will not have to report at.

[Gippsland Flyer]

No Frank, this is a GENIUNE concern - I am not wasting my time nor and I being cynical.

[Fantome]

Would you believe we sometimes had to use a party line, operator connected telephone to cancel SAR. It was called a "airmove priority" call and was free by the way.



And would you believe that the late lamented stammering C.C.Chris Braund
wrote on the flight plan form in the box for method of canceling SAR - 'SMOKE SIGNAL'? Gentleman that he was, he appended the box where PIC wrote his name, adding 'Yours sincerely', and then signed with a flourish.

[Frank Arouet]

Gippsland Flyer;

Your question specifically related to dot point 2 of your post;

2. What happens when I am on a CTAF and have a problem and there are no other aircraft to hear me? In the millisecond between an engine out and "oh #$^T" I don't think I would be looking for the radio frequency for the CTR. So I guess the 7700 is the next best. Not as good as being in constant touch with the FSU of old.

Then you go on to ask;

So my question is - while all this diatribe is going on about class D and Class C, who is considering what happens to poor old VFR pilots on CTAF frequencies in class E when there is a problem.


So firstly one should ask why would you be on a CTAF frequency in class E airspace? (you know, above 8500ft), and secondly ask where you got your information that we ever were in constant touch with the FSU of old.

Really, to be safe, I think you should just stay in bed.

[Frank Arouet]

Fantome;

And one listed "souls on board" in case you were carrying dead bodies. One famous aviator of the time wrote the number of live chickens he was transporting from Sydney to Melbourne in a Piaggio as an indelible mark of his Christian upbringing. (this, at the time, was tolerated).:suspect:

Dare I say his initials were BJW?:uhoh:

[LeadSled]

Folks,
Maybe we should have a separate thread just devoted to the many hilarious utterances of CCCCChris.

Just for starters, those with a long enough memory:
(then) "Correct" word when passing Glenfield on the 07 ILS at ASSY (as it then was, until some bureaucrat decide that Australia wasn't in the league where nations were identified as A for Australia, N for N. America, G for GB, F for France, D for Germany etc):

"Sydney Tower, XXX Glenfield inbound, left 3000"

or Chris ( in an EWA DC-3):
"SSSSSydney TTTTower is our TTTTower,
WWWWe hear tttthem every ddddday"

All to the tune of the Aeroplane Jelly song.

Tootle pip!!

[Fantome]

He also had his own sung version of the 'Sydney flour is our flour' jingle . . 'We use it everyday, for cakes and scones that mother bakes . . . '

'S.S.Sydney Tower is our T.Tower, We c.c.call you everyday. This is Echo W.W Whiskey Alpha, over B.Broken Bay.'

There's at least half a dozen priceless Chris stories in the book 'Laughter in the Air', a collection of 'Tales' from the back page of 'AVIATION' when Jim Thorne had it.

Chris being chipped by Tamworth Tower for being a mile inside the CTR without a clearance. 'S.S.Sorry . . . c.c.could it be er.er. earth rotation?'

[OZBUSDRIVER]

Ohhh, how I love listening to these ol timers who just hated having to deal with FS and use that guldarnit radio.:}

[Frank Arouet]

Crikey!:uhoh: Someone's lost the plot!

OZBUSDRIVER;

I thought FS gave Sterling service and made flying enjoyable with face to face briefings, met conditions, and courteous and efficient radio interaction. I shared many a cup of coffee on early morning briefings and they never yelled at you.

The simple fact was that VHF coverage below 5000ft was very patchy and offered no mantle of constant coverage over the vast parts of Australia.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Thanks Frank......

So did I........:ok::ok:

[Fantome]

The temerity ! Been round here days, zero cred, has the gall to berate and abuse in language uninviting one who consistently respects the rules and moreover has a wealth of relevant experience . Should be standing out in the passage for the rest of the period.
That or bend over.


Says he likes to talk on the wireless. Does not say how often he has to change hands.

[CaptainMidnight]

You are a f%^&*g know all and you really add no value.Gee, that's a good post for a newbie.

This isn't usenet, buddy .........

[OZBUSDRIVER]

Ahhh, so extending that just a little further , Francis. If we have the VHF coverage(Which we now do) You would wish that we had FS back instead of dealing with ATC, work permitting.

:ok::ok:

[Frank Arouet]

OZBUSDRIVER;

You would wish that we had FS back instead of dealing with ATC, work permitting.

I don't deal with ATC any more because they yell at you.

The post after yours sums up that judgemental and intolerent attitude.

wealthy nufftie

Indeed. Spare me the commo spam!:*

[max1]

I don't deal with ATC any more because they yell at you.


Frank,
I consider that ATC to be unprofessional. Did you report them?
Could you give an example of when an ATC 'yelled' at you.

[Frank Arouet]

max1;

I must admit every ATC interaction I have had in the real world has been professional and unabrasive. I have heard ATC become very short with students at times and one example I can quote happened at Rockhampton during one of the Kangaroo exercises. Very busy indeed.

Bloke I know had recently beecome PPL and was nervous when flying to "the big smoke" which he had to do on a regular basis for medical treatment for his child with cancer. I was RH seat with him on this occasion. He stuttered when under pressure but managed to get most everything right until a long winded airways clearance for departure had him toss the microphone at me. (no headsets then either).

I questioned one part of the clearance and the ATCO thinking he was talking to the original pilot, started to berate me most vigourously until I pulled him into gear and the penny dropped.

The fact he was busy did not take into account the tragedy that became of this family who used their Cherokee for private and not commercial flying.

Old mate sold the aircraft shortly after and submitted to the 6 hour drive after the event. Never flown since.

At other times, same airport, I have shared coffee with the crew on occasion and was mostly given "known status" when arriving or departing. I even had an emergency there and the same blokes went out of their way to facilitate a safe outcome.

As for Owen Stanley,, well we have talked among ourselves and are in general agreement to disagree with each other. He seems to hold me responsible for the alleged actions of someone else and we will never agree about the way the ADSB matter was handled and the broken promises about subsidies.

As for the concept, I am sick of saying I support it where it is needed as an ATC tool.

So I'm probably guilty of winding him up. I bear him no malice however.:)

[Frank Arouet]

Owen;

In your last para we may be largely in agreement mate.

As for the offending post of flying on a CTAF frequency in class E airspace, well, how high is the highest airport in Australia and is that CTAF freq intrusive of the 8500ft class E airspace to any great degree?

I saw it as just another DS wind up that the man doesn't deserve.

He has actually achieved something in his life and it sh!ts me beyond reasonability that piss poor examples of humanity, that have achieved nothing in their miserable lives take to their keypads and demonstrate their anti Tory wares here on PPRune simply because they are failures in their own right.. Legends in their own lunchbox.

Why does every opinionated fkucwit on the subject Class 'D' airspace radio procedures (http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-general-aviation-questions/392044-class-d-airspace-radio-procedures-3.html#post5514880) live in Gippsland?

Tag over to you OZBUSDRIVER.