Pilot's on Food Stamps

[lostwingnut]

Afternoon all,

Might be old, but it was new for me. An interesting read, about time the general public became aware of what pilot's have to put up with.

Mike's Blog #1: 'Pilots on Food Stamps' | MichaelMoore.com (http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/must-read/mikes-blog-1-pilots-food-stamps)

Personally I never hold back when passenger Joe ask's what kinda money I'm on. I know we all do it 'for the love of flying', but in the end it is a highly specialised job that requires a serious amount of training and investment.


Regards, Lost

[Mr. Hat]

Lost hope you don't mind but I thought I'd expand for the people that might not follow the link

Mike's Blog #1: 'Pilots on Food Stamps'

Pilots on Food Stamps
By Michael Moore

We're on the descent from 20,000 feet in the air when the flight attendant leans over the elderly woman next to me and taps me on the shoulder.

"I'm listening to Lady Gaga," I say as I remove just one of the ear buds. I know not this Lady Gaga, but her performance last week on SNL was fascinating.

"The pilots would like to see you in the cockpit when we land," she says with a southern drawl.

"Did I do something wrong?"

"No. They have something to show you." (The last time an employee of an airline wanted to show me something it was her written reprimand for eating an in-flight meal without paying for it. "Yes," she said, "we have to pay for our own meals on board now.")

The plane landed and I stepped into the cockpit. "Read this," the first officer said. He handed me a letter from the airline to him. It was headlined "LETTER OF CONCERN." It seems this poor fellow had taken three sick days in the past year. The letter was a warning not to take another one -- or else.

"Great," I said. "Just what I want -- you coming to work sick, flying me up in the air and asking to borrow the barf bag from my seatback pocket."

He then showed me his pay stub. He took home $405 this week. My life was completely and totally in his hands for the past hour and he's paid less than the kid who delivers my pizza.

I told the guys that I have a whole section in my new movie about how pilots are treated (using pilots as only one example of how people's wages have been slashed and the middle class decimated). In the movie I interview a pilot for a major airline who made $17,000 last year. For four months he was eligible -- and received -- food stamps. Another pilot in the film has a second job as a dog walker.

"I have a second job!," the two pilots said in unison. One is a substitute teacher. The other works in a coffee shop. You know, maybe it's just me, but the two occupations whose workers shouldn't be humpin' a second job are brain surgeons and airline pilots. Call me crazy.

I told them about how Capt. "Sully" Sullenberger (the pilot who safely landed the jet in the Hudson River) had testified in Congress that no pilot he knows wants any of their children to become a pilot. Pilots, he said, are completely demoralized. He spoke of how his pay has been cut 40% and his own pension eliminated. Most of the TV news didn't cover his remarks and the congressmen quickly forgot them. They just wanted him to play the role of "HERO," but he was on a more important mission. He's in my movie.

"I hadn't heard anywhere that this stuff about the airlines is in this new movie," the pilot said.

"No, you wouldn't," I replied. "The press likes to talk about me, not the movie."

And it's true. I've been surprised (and slightly annoyed) that, with all that's been written and talked about "Capitalism: A Love Story," very little attention has been paid the mind-blowing stuff in the film: pilots on food stamps, companies secretly taking out life insurance policies on employees and hoping they die young so the company can collect, judges getting kickbacks from the private prison industry for sending innocent people (kids) to be locked up. The profit motive -- it's a killer.

Especially when your pilot started his day at 6am working at the local Starbucks

Wish this one was in the airline forum.

[benharris10]

Was just reading some of the comments on the link - One stood out to me in particular.

Sounds like the perfect time for a strike, you can't just go out and pull guys off the street to replace pilots. All the underpaid pilots from every airline should get together and stand firm. If they don't have a union they need one. Even a short strike could put a lot of these airlines out of business.

I haven't often heard of Pilot Strikes, and a quick Google search reveals that 1989 seems to have been the last one. With all of the comments on here about the reduction in peoples terms and conditions, Why hasn't there been more Industrial Action from pilots? Or hasn't it gotten bad enough yet? I realise that T&C's in America seem much worse. Wouldn't it cost these companies more to train a new CPL on a jet or turboprop than it would to increase pay accordingly?

[NOSIGN]

I'm tired of being paid less than the person behind the reception desk, or the teeneager flipping burgers full time at Maca's.

IT IS AN INSULT.

Pay for your own endorsements, pay to travel for an interview, pay your way through the sim session, 'negotiated' per diems, pay your own asic, pay your own medical, pay your own documents, share a room with another crewmember, split duty, pay this pay that... does money grow on trees - I earn my wage just to pay to work? It's ridiculous. I am on award salary.

I assume that any other industry would have striked by now.

[mcgrath50]

If it is so bad, then why isn't there a strike then?

[mattyj]

what would the mods do if someone tried to organise one through prune?

[rodrigues]

Amazed there hasn't yet been a major strike. We see teachers, nurses etc. all working off the job. The whole thing is :mad: disgusting, and forces you to seriously consider just flying for leisure.

Imagine the chaos if every discontent pilot in an Airline walked off the job. The level of difficulty, training, investment and responsibility is not justified through remuneration.

Financially, it would be much more beneficial to become Cabin Crew. Literally. A good friend of mine, left his Cabin Crew position to persue flight training - he was on over $100k.

[Mr.Buzzy]

Strike???:}:}:}:}:}:}
Which union?...... :}:}:}:}:}

bbbbbbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzbbbbbbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[gordonfvckingramsay]

Perhaps with the impending pilot shortage, the time is ripe to do something like this. I am certain, given the opportunity to prove a point, all unions will be happy to co-operate to achieve an outcome. This is a profession, not a hobby.

[Mr. Hat]

Shiny Jet Syndrome.

Can't see a strike of an type happening now or in the future. The only way you can force conditions up is to be super hard nosed during your eba votes.

Couple of years ago the VB guys were and things improved a little.

[hoggsnortrupert]

When it comes to standing together, I have said this before on here if some one wants to search, PARK THE ALUMINUM TUBING ON A WORLD WIDE SCALE! but alas it will never happen, egos and careers get in the way of doing whats right.

Have another string to your bow:

I agree! my kids want to fly, I am doing my dam best to steer them in another direction.

This problem is in my opinion,(bring it on) caused by PILOTS: because we wont stick together.

One of my mates of 30+ yrs is "just a bit" outspoken, he works on his "T" theory! or as he refers to it as the MAS theory, MONEY, ATTITUDE,****E, money has to be enough to hold the attitude, and allow for a bit of ****e carrying, if Money decreases, and the ****e increases(Compliance/ new wheel being reinvented, & training) then the ATTITUDE suffers.

He recently left Nadi after they devalued the dollar 20%, with the exchange rate following another 7%, he gave them the opportunity, they played him out, he fell on his sword and departed without finishing his notice because it was costing him money to be there.

I tell him to get on PP, his reply is what the f--k for?

He refers to me as a aviation whore! :oh:

What really pisses me off is that he is so f---ing right!:mad:

H/Snort:=

[FFG 02]

Yup 60 mins last night talked of the boom returning to mining towns.

Candid interview with a lady who (don't quote me) said she didn't have any mining skills. But she did learn to drive a dump truck for 100K+.

And that is for 1 week on, 1 week off.

"Mav, do you have that number for that truck driving school, Truckmaster I think it was...."

[neville_nobody]

There must be some limit where one has to think it isn't worth it, has it been worth it for you? Genuine question from someone who has just started their career. (Let's take into account the current conditions and future of the industry)

I think the problem is that the amount of effort and money to get a license and a few hours actually makes you hang in there longer, because you think 'I don't want to waste the last five years of my life'. Then you keep on hanging on and hanging on. I believe if you hang in there long enough then you will get where you want to go however the amount of money and effort may not make it worthwhile. I think also that has an affect on other parts of your life too which isn't mentioned too often here. If you are the full aviation nerd, (ie all your friends are pilots, you hang at the aero club and play flightsim in your spare time and have a aviation blog and 2000 posts on pprune) then you will probably wouldn't be too bothered but if actually want something resembling a normal life then you have to pull the pin at some stage. I got close to the point of bugging out then got into an airline and have a normal life and some decent money.

Personally I wouldn't recommend anyone be a pilot in this country. IF you had EU citizenship and the $$ or could work in some 3rd world country's airline and bypass all the GA BS then that would be OK. Places like Australia, NZ, USA and Canada just are not worth the effort unless your life long passion is aviation.

[Mr. Hat]

and it'll only get worse!

The other big issue is that people have accepted that most will vote yes to eba's that have poor pay rises with conditions being eroded each and every time because they know that they are simply going to leave to get the conditions they want. (See another thread with pilots going to Air China: the new Emirates).

In the end all the experienced pilots will end up contracting elsewhere.

[lostwingnut]

Part of the problem is a weak union - AFAP.

As a GA pilot you are not represented at all, as an airline pilot you get lost in the system. The only real way to get improved conditions is to band together and ask for it. Unfortunately like every other professional group (nurses, teachers etc), pilots can not organise this on their own, and this is where a union comes in.

And all we got is AFAP, the people that negotiate the award, then don't enforce it. I have said it before, and will say it again - How can we be represented by people (AFAP) that are so out of touch with the industry, that they don't even know what the award is themselves.

I was a member, my employer was underpaying me and generally bullying the pilots, contacted AFAP, and was promptly told that they could not and would not help me, or my colleagues. When I cancelled my membership the not so helpful lady on the phone told me in no uncertain terms that I would not be receiving my magazine and AFAP calendar next year. HA!

Eh, same old rant, same old bitterness. I've put my neck out a few times, for myself and others. Almost every time I have had it sliced, the scars will never heal.

Regards, Lost

P.S. Thanks for the help Mr Hat, makes it much easier when the story is embedded in the conversation rather than a link, I'm still learning all the etiquette for forum posting.

[bushy]

In our commercial world you get paid what you are worth. If you are not getting enough have a look around you. There will always be suckers who will spend lots of money and effort to fly anything, even for no pay.
While GA is just a training ground for airline pilots there will always be a plentiful supply of hopeful, desperate, broke newbies. An oversupply. So their services will be cheap.
This is now spreading to the regionals and the majors. It will take a while to make major changes to the major airlines, bu the effects can be seen already. Some of their T&C's are being eroded.
One solution would be to change the legislation so that much more multicrew training and a multi crew licence is required for airline operations (as an F/O) with little requirement for GA hours.
That way there would be two streams of trainees and each would be training for the appropriate skills for the operation they want to go to. And GA would not be polluted by people who do not want to be there. So there would not be the oversupply of desperate CPL hplders who now cheapen the GA T&C's and pull down the T&C's in the regionals, and the majors.

[ZKSUJ]

Food stamps is a great idea, wish we had them over here. Would make life easier.

Like a few others, I'm stuck in the food chain (not very high up as well may I add but stuck none the less), still in GA working my way up. Times aren't the best but I guess everyone is experiencing it. I'm counting myself lucky that i have a job right now.

As far as the employer is concerned, if we aint happy with it, theres always someone to replace us. A bit hard to strike if your job isnt secure and you can put it in jeopardy instantly (but thats GA I suppose). I guess it doesnt help other staff aren't part of the union, so if there was a strike I'd be the sole one at the picket line. Anyway, I'm just looking at it as a 'character building' experience for now (I certainly know I've grown alot of patience since I started flying commercially just over a year ago), and hopefully it wont be too much longer for something else to come along.

I presume alot of guys here work second jobs as well. I know I do. Work my 2nd job 5-6 nights a week and my flying job daily. And like many in the country I get paid per flying hour which varies weekly and is not steady income. The biggest thing is waiting on the ground for any flying and not being paid for alot of the work that you end up doing. I know guys who teach classes for free to get flying. Others who do Sim training for free just to get some Multi IFR hours (of which they do for free anyway). A friend of a friend works as a Pizza delivery Boy at night while instructing in the day (on a pay per flying hour basis), and he eats leftover pizzas a few nights a week to save money on food. I work with a guy who works a full time job, then walks to the airport every evening to get a flight (an hour to airport and an hour home), as well as being there on weekends. And dont get me started about an ex-collegue who lived off part of his girlfriends student allowance to get by. The list goes on and on...

All we do is bear it for now, and sooner or later something better will come up. One thing this industry has taught me and my mates is that if you don't look at a possible positive outcome at the end , it gets real tough real quick. We are very lucky to have one or two more experienced guys who have 'been there and done that' to keep us motivated along the way.

Anyway, it would be interesting to see what this movie actually says and the story it tells. I know of many guys who struggle during their GA phase and alot of interesting people in not so fortunate situations (financially). But the bright side is Once you get to the regionals (in NZ anyway) at least the pay is alright and the Miser lifestyle can slowly vanish. Wish I could say the same for our friends flying in the US of A.

[Peter Fanelli]

Oh yeah, Michael Moore.
And it's not like he doesn't lie to push his agenda.
You people are getting way too gullible.

[Merh]

Peter - And I presume 'ZKSUJ' is lying to push his agenda also? The thread isn't about the credibility of Michael Moore, it's about the atrocious conditions which far too many professional pilots face on a daily basis. We don't need Michael Moore to highlight that.

[Ixixly]

As someone looking for his first job i'm getting to meet a lot of pilots from GA up to RPT and as far as I can see this is wide spread across the entire industry. Your all quite correct in saying that this can't go on, its hard to link everyone together especially with a union that seems to do very little to bring us together, or perhaps its our own fault for not having enough enough people becoming members of AFAP and those who are not voicing their opinions.

In respect to gathering people together i'd say that AFAP probably has the best chance of doing this but needs motivation. In general i'm not sure what PPrunes stand point would be, but perhaps someone with some standing in the community should attempt to organise an online petition? There are a number of websites that allow the creation of free petitions online that people can sign their names to, the link to this petition could be posted on the forums and with enough people behind it AFAP would have no choice but to move on it?

[NOSIGN]

I am away from home to be at work for over 70 hours per week (generally) - split duty kneads the 70 hour week into a legal 40 hour week (say) for which I get paid according to the award, without demeaning the receptionist or the engineer who is paid more then me for working 40hrs - there IS something wrong with this scenario.

Capt Obvious says "without Pilots and Engineers, aviation business stops'. Who then should be at the pinnicle of pay scale?

I have my own agenda Peter Fanelli.

I'm not much of a legal eagle, nor do I have the time to read the fine print, but perhaps people should band together to put some ideas on the table on how to reverse the common exploitation of Pilot conditions and pay?

Perhaps PPRUNER's and other forum visitors with specific knowledge could elaborate on each point listed? This detail could be presented to the union by a keen member.

How does one make an impact? Speak to the union? Threaten to boycott the union? Start a campaign to empower the union? Create a powerful union? alert the sleepy transport minister? press a case for safety? Cause media hype? strike? rant on PPRUNE? ... or as I just read by Ixixy, make petition?

[Metro man]

I remember being a turbo prop captain and having to take a second job, taxi driving in order to get by. The refueller and the loaders got paid more than I did and yes I was on full award wages.

Now with a low cost I make twice as much as I used to but work twice as hard with none of the standard airline benefits.

Looking at major airlines for my next career move, I see that Emirates which only a few years ago was regarded as a prime job are slowly but surely eroding their pilots terms and conditions. Also they expect me to pay for my own ticket to Dubai for the interview :hmm:

Airlines worth working for are now few and far between, and you need to get in young with the long wait to upgrade. Only airline in Australia with decent conditions is QANTAS and they are underpressure from the financial crisis and competition.

CATHAY "A" scale a memory, back in the 1980/90s it was a dream job with widebody captains being grateful to get in as second officers.

Airlines are essential to the economy, look at the disruption during the pilots strike. It's time we as skilled professionals got paid what we are worth bearing in mind our training, skill and responsibilities.

It used to be you did the hard yards for a few years and it paid off in the end, now the pay back isn't there. No way can I recommend flying as a career to an aspiring youngster unless someone else pays, either a cadetship or the airforce.

I will steer my son in the direction of university and a degree in a field with good potential. I don't know of any dentists having to take second jobs once qualified.

[NOSIGN]

Case -

1. Many mining companies require the service of air charter. Typically,
these companies require the Pilot(s) of the flight to meet specified experience levels. Mining charter contracts are a big deal to charter operators because at the very least, they ensure secure revenue.

The Pilots Award should reward the more experienced Pilot - the reasoning is justified. A pay subscale between Captain and First Officer should be enforced, and or a scheduled loyalty bonus should be paid

Comments - [left blank]

2. 30.1.1 of the GA award - "Where a pilot will be away from home base for more than 48 hours the employer will, upon request by the pilot, provide suitable transport or the cost thereof between the pilot's home and the pilot's base airport irrespective of time of departure or return. Where a pilot lives in excess of 50 kilometres from their base airport the employer may elect to pay the pilot the allowance of 70 cents per kilometre prescribed in 30.1.3 hereof in lieu of the provision of transport."

Bold emphasis is mine. Items in BOLD are weak! Who does this clause aim to protect? Scenario: what young first job Pilot is going to request transport if it is not offerred by their employer? Which fair dinkum employer elects to pay the Pilot an allowance of...? Why is the wording not absolute?, i.e. suitable transport WILL be provided by the employer, and 'if suitable transport cannot be provided, or, as an alternate, the emplyer will provided the Pilot with an allowance...' I suggest that the client bares the brunt of the these costs. In too many situations, the Pilot subsidises the operator and or client.

Comments - [left blank]

3. How many of us have claimed $74.95 as stated in part 30.33 of the award re: unloading freight? Why is it up to the Pilot to announce the claim? Who is the Pilot who will make the claim, if all of his colleagues don't?

Comments - [left blank]

4. Award part 30.61! How many charter operators provide you with a mobile phone?

Comments - [left blank]

5. Section 31 of the award - why is anything here able to be negotiated? :ugh: How many of us have 'negotiated' or accepted that a per diem of $30 or $60 or $80 is close enough?

Comments - [left blank]

[Merh]

I am more than happy to start an online petition, though can not help but question who it would be directed to, what impact it would actually have, and how it would be worded.

Perhaps generating some kind of media/public buzz would be effective in bringing awareness to the issue, eradicate some of the misconceptions people have and potentially gaining wide-spread understanding, as Nurses and Teachers have been able to achieve.

[lostwingnut]

An online petition is a great start.

You would have to target the relatively secure midfield GA pilots.
By this I mean not the 200 hour fresh CPL's lining up in Jabiru to get their first job, but the more secure 1000 - 2000 hour pilots in the bigger cities. Most of these guys will have 'been there, done that', most would have put up with some serious crap getting to where they are. It is the best bet to get the critical first few pages of signatures. From there you could step up to the regionals and airlines, and back down the remote locations.

Who to send it to;
The Minister of Transport, and the Fair Work Ombudsman.
CC'd to AFAP.
BCC'd to ACA and TT just for ****s and giggles.

With the wording;
You want something simple, that won't incriminate the people signing it - and more importantly make them unemployable.


Unfortunately this is a questions AFAP should be asking the industry, a proper union would make contact with the people it currently represents and the people it hopes or should represent. Anyone remember a couple year ago when the TWU was contacting pilots around Australia?

It would make my day if I saw an AFAP rep walk into any aviation company with a note board, pen and a brochure or two, signing up people and getting signatures for a petition. It would absolutely be a great day!

Regards, Lost

[fl610]

Unfortunately this is a questions AFAP should be asking the industry, a proper union would make contact with the people it currently represents and the people it hopes or should represent. Anyone remember a couple year ago when the TWU was contacting pilots around Australia?

It would make my day if I saw an AFAP rep walk into any aviation company with a note board, pen and a brochure or two, signing up people and getting signatures for a petition. It would absolutely be a great day!


Who do you think the AFAP is? I'll answer that for you. It is a sum of it's members and if the members don't get off there collective butts then no matter how much bitching you do on this forum, nothing will change. The paid staff of the AFAP are a very small group of people with limited resources, it does and always has rely on the membership to donate their time to make things happen. Do nothing and rest assured that no improvement will be forthcoming.

[notmyC150v2]

Chaps,

Under the Industrial Laws in place in Australia, the only way to increase your wages is through collective bargaining at the workplace.

Award rates cannot be increased except through the annual wage review performed by Fair Work Australia so your only option is to go to your employer.

This is where it gets tricky.

Whilst your employer is required to bargain in good faith (as are you) and you have the "right" to take industrial action (provided the relevant hoops have been jumped through) you have the problem that you are a "essential industry" and "vital to the nations economy".

This means that any attempt to take industrial action concurrently with employees negotiating with another employer would be doomed to failure. The employers would only have to show the potential damage to the economy which would result from such action and it's all over red rover.

So improving your lot when employed for QANTAS/Jetstar, Virgin or REX may be possible during collective agreement negotiations because of the sheer number of pilots employed in those companies. You face the difficulty of ensuring unity though.

In the smaller GA outfits however, I can't see any way to improve the wage rates because these guys fly under the industrial radar and there is long history of pilots being dismissed for "misconduct" when questioning their pay, let alone trying to negotiate a raise.

[C-change]

Interesting thread. Makes me glad that I ditched a flying career a long time ago. Always wondered if I made the right choice.

Anyway, nothing will ever change if you sit back and wait for the union to do something for you. The people at AFAP are not the union, the members are and you need to be procactive and get AFAP working for you. Encourage your workmates to join the union, only then when you have strength in numbers can you make a change, as did the teachers (NSW), civil ATC, the list goes on.

Contact your union reps and get the ball rolling on a wages campaign. If you sit back, nothing will ever change. It will take a long time but its the only way you will get any changes.

Good luck.

[-438]

For all the guys out there who do not want to be part of this continual race to the bottom.
When you finally do get the experience for a job at a regional or a LCC, think long and hard about your long term future, when signing up for lower paying jobs where you pay for endorsements, airport parking etc.
There will be many opportunities overseas, it's a bit like the new road trip to Darwin in GA.
It may be hard to leave the shores of Australia/NZ, but the life rewards and not being a contributor to the downward spiral in Australasian conditions will leave you and many others better off.

[The Bunglerat]

As always, the magic words are 'context' and 'perspective.'

Many convincing points have been made on this thread regarding the state of affairs in this once great industry. As airline pilots of today, are we underpaid when compared to our compatriots of yesteryear? Absolutely. Are we underpaid when considering the massive responsibility placed on our shoulders to get a couple of hundred punters safely from "A" to "B"? Without a doubt.

Nevertheless when put into context, I consider myself fortunate to be paid a six-figure salary for a job that, most days, I enjoy. Most of my friends don't earn as much as I do - in or out of aviation - and those that do earn an equivalent salary to mine don't enjoy their work as much. Furthermore, it wasn't that many years ago that I was struggling to support a family on a GA wage that some might argue was so low as to be considered criminally negligent on the part of those who were paying me. As such, I feel for many of my friends still doing the hard yards, and whilst I could argue that - in spite of what I now earn - it still isn't enough, I don't feel I have the right to bitch and moan when there are so many out there doing it a lot harder than me. Unfortunately - although thankfully rarely - I'll have the misfortune of being paired on a trip with a grumpy old fart that spends all day in the cockpit bitching about how bad our company is, how underpaid we are when compared with the good old days, and how he could be earning so much more elsewhere. Quite frankly I couldn't give a rotting rat's ring-hole, and would much rather he vent his frustrations on someone who gives a damn. If it's so bad, vote with your feet and take your business elsewhere, but to be honest I find it quite offensive that some of us have the nerve to complain about how tough we've got it, when our salary is still well above the national average - and there are many people out there in the real world doing it a lot tougher than us.

The simple fact is that this industry ain't what it used to be, and there's an awful lot more wrong with it than is right, but that's beside the point. If I put my mind to it, I could make a very long list about everything I hate in aviation, but the only thing I'd achieve in the process is turn myself into a bitter and twisted individual. Personally I'd rather be happy than not, and this - like many things in life - is a choice within my power to make. When it stops being that way I'll get out, but until then I'll try to be more patient, more considerate, and more appreciative of the things I do have in my life (both in and outside of work) - rather than dwell on what I don't have, could have, or should have.

[Horatio Leafblower]

...but the reality is that the AFAP, speaking to a single member, will fob you off and say "that's not what we're here for".

Lost Wing Nut,

You are absolutely dead right - the AFAP needs to engage pilots at the GA level. Only then, and only maybe then, there will not be splinter rep groups in Virgin and Jetstar that the AFAP waste increasing amounts of legal fees opposing. :rolleyes:

What is a PPRuNe thread going to achieve?

I know the AFAP read these pages and they certainly react to criticism here. Maybe, just maybe, after ANOTHER thread almost begging the AFAP to show some leadership... maybe they will say something more than "the AFAP is about its members and maybe you should be contributing rather than criticising us on an anonymous internet forum blah blah blah" :ugh:

I have moved from "employee" to "employer" recently but I have kept up my membership regardless in the hope that some good may come of it... one day... :suspect:

[The Green Goblin]

The only reason why any of us AFAP members pay the membership fee is for LOL insurance and representation in case of the unthinkable.

[KRviator]

Okay, to save me from making a right goose of myself - again - would some folks like to divulge what they actually earnt last year? Gross, net, and what you were doing to earn that kind of money? Hours wise, aircraft flown?

I'm of the firm impression I made the right choice not pursuing a career in aviation after the military, and instead joined the railways. $45K in my first year, $65K in my second, and last year $95K including a little overtime and my meagre allowances.

So, how does this compare to a commercial pilot in GA? In the airlines?

[KRUSTY 34]

I guess it depends on what you do on the railways?

[compressor stall]

Green Goblin, you and me both. And as you say, many others do same.

[lostwingnut]

KRviator

First year or years is spent in places such as the Kimberly or Arnhem Land, if your lucky enough to be full time then your looking at anywhere from $25k to $34k per year, if your casual then anywhere from $30 to $45 per flying hour, a few companies only pay MR time. Asking for more pay, or even minimum wage is a fireable offence, hell even printing the award and having it in your locker can result in a one week suspension. As a 20 year old, fresh eye'd newbie you have no idea about workers rights and things such as unions and workplace ombudsmen. Its not really something they teach at high school or the flying school.

The next job is normally in a slightly bigger city, if not a capital. Both full time and casual are normally on the minimum award, excluding any allowances etc. This is anywhere from roughly $34k for single VFR to around $47k twin IFR. Keep in mind that most these guys have a few years experience and anywhere from 1000 hours to 2500 hours. A number of companies started paying a bit more than the award, just to keep the senior guys, your looking from $50k to $55k for twin IFR. Once again, compare this to any other industry, it is still very low.

A step to the regionals will normally result in a good pay cut for these guys, a drop from $47k down to $37k can be normal, which will eventually over a few years build back up to $55k. Once again you have to keep in mind these guys on average have now probably been in the industry for 5 to 8 years plus and with a few thousand hours experience.

Regards, Lost

[NOSIGN]

Bunglerat,

I feel that your comments are appropriate and it's great to work with somebody who is positive, nevertheless the dreadfulness of it all remains, albeit your current situation is obviously better than many in lesser paid jobs (not to say that you haven't been there and done that).

Professional Pilots are fortunate that they have the personal tenacity, skill and devotion to persist with flying. It is the Pilots choice to be employed as such, and that Pilot should have the ability to value his/her training and experience and put a realistic price on the table for his/her service to what is regarded an essential service.

When did paying for a $30k endorsement become acceptable? :ugh: Pay for parking? WTF :ugh: Sleep in the airport car park during a tour? :mad::ugh::ugh::ugh: No thank-you. When does common sense and your balls kick in to say "you can STICK IT"?

Someone is really Fu*kn with our lives here - we all know the direct and indirect costs involved with training, working, recurrency etc.

Making a long list of negatives will probably make you an enlightened but somewhat bitter and twisted individual as you say (like me :}), but if you take those concerns outside of the flightdeck or lunchroom (which I think Pilot types are not good at), chances are that they will be addressed.

I hope that the verbosity of this thread stops and it provides impetus to voicing Pilot concerns beyond that of our Captain or FO/SO colleagues.

I'm not a pollie, but if many of you think that an online petition is a good start, suggest some wording and constraints, and although it may take me some time, I can work out how to get it online.

*** Aside *** I should address this qn to AFAP, but some PPRUNERs may have inside knowldege... has AFAP ever made an advertising campaign to try and fatten membership numbers? i.e. pamphlets sent to persons attributed with an ARN, membership forms handed out when commencing new employment etc? As mentioned by lostwingnut, workers rights and things such as unions and workplace ombudsmen are not usually introduced to green Pilots.

KRviator, re coin check out the general aviation safety net award (http://afap.org.au/html/s02_article/article_view.asp?id=103&nav_cat_id=130&nav_top_id=74). Many employers will use this as their benchmark. IT'S WORSE IN NZ! Several years ago I rejected an invitation to work as FO on a multi-engine turbine >5700kg in an NZ capital city for a major business for a salary of something like NZ$23 or $27k/annum. :yuk: THE PUBLIC DO GIVE A DAMN, AND NOBODY WANTS A PILOT WHO HAS SLEPT IN THE STAFF CAR PARK OVERNIGHT OR EATEN 2 MINUTE NOODLES FOR DINNER THE NIGHT BEFORE, TO FLY THEM BETWEEN PORTS.

[FGD135]

Here's something for you all to think about:

Any increase to pilot's T&Cs will put other pilots out of a job.

The travelling public can only afford to pay so much. To double pilot salaries, for example, would require the public to pay roughly twice what they presently pay in airfares.

Doubling pilot salaries would (roughly) reduce pilot numbers by half.

The above is a very rough guide as to the effect of increased pilot remuneration and conforms with general economic theory. Please don't rattle off one of those calculations that show how a tiny, $0.20 cent increase in ticket prices can finance huge pay increases for pilots. Those calculations are rubbish.

[Runaway Gun]

Well, I'm thinking about it, and I'm impressed with your rough rule of thumb, out of a hat, tea leaf patterned, calculations.

Just what did you base this fantasy equation on, roughly?

[Captain Nomad]

He's 'Aircraft' in disguise! :} :E (if your PPRUNE memory stretches back that far...)

[j3pipercub]

I'm with Runaway Gun. Double the salaries and double the fare, YOU'RE AWESOME!!!!! So that means the only cost of utilizing the aircraft is PILOTS!!!!!!! WOW, tell me what aircraft you're basing this on, I'm going to buy 20 and give VB a run for their money. TOOL.

[Keg]

Runaway Gun, it's general economic theory. Obviously us pilots aren't able to understand that. Even allowing for on costs and other bits and pieces it's pretty obvious the statement is a load of codswallop.

[Mach E Avelli]

There's economic theory and economic reality. The reality is that until the demand for pilots exceeds the supply, conditions will remain p!ss-poor. Which will be for the rest of my career and then some. Operators won't pay a cent more than they have to until they actually have aircraft grounded for lack of crews, the leasing companies pounding on the door and passengers queuing up outside the terminal. There was a 'sweet spot' for pilots about 2 to 3 years ago when it did appear that aircraft would be grounded due to lack of crews. Now they are grounded due to lack of passengers. So the sweet spot did not last long enough for any long-term gains.
A strike won't work today any better than it did in 1989 because even if every airline pilot in Australia walked off the job, 'emergency' measures could be put in place just as they were last time to validate foreign licences. The economy would take a hit for a while but, as happened last time, it did recover.
Except for a few sh!thole places, the world supply of pilots is still in excess of demand, so we would be knocked over in the rush for our seats, should we collectively decide to vacate them. Sure, during the period immediately post-1989 there were numerous incidents and safety breaches, many of which were swept under the carpet. But nothing crashed, no-one got killed, so those in political power are unlikely to heed a safety argument.
Airline pilots are probably easier and safer to source from overseas than G.A. pilots would be, because of their common type ratings and the general similarity of IFR procedures on air routes everywhere in the world. What happened back in 1989 was quite disgraceful - both in the way government and the domestic airline managements conducted themselves - but also in the way that many of the 'band of brothers' broke ranks and took G.A. jobs which in turn affected the prospects of the younger ones just starting on the ladder. It was dog eat dog then and I don't think we pilots have evolved to more noble beings in just 20 years.
The fact that it is no longer an attractive career won't diminish the pilot supply. The QUALITY of the supply is another matter, as those further down the gene pool decide it would be fun to fly and to get one up on their mates driving taxis. While the ones further up the food chain give flying lessons a miss for more nerdy and profitable careers.
Airline managements will adapt to this trend as they always have - by moving their selection goal posts around to fit what is available at the time.

[fl610]

Well said Mach E Avelli :ok:

[KRviator]

I guess it depends on what you do on the railways?Drive coal trains out of Newcastle. Where my base salary is $75,000 a year. Overtime and overnight expenses made up the other $20,000 last year. And we're looking for more trainee's if anyone's interested :}

As a comparison, a possible position I'm looking at in Brisbane operates Driver-Only trains, pays trainee's about $75,000 and qualified blokes upwards of $86,000. You can go from off the street, to qualified in 6 months, if you're switched on...

lostwingnut's figures are really an eye-opener for me, as if you've been in the industry for 5 years, and are earning less than $60K, I both feel genuine sorrow for your plight, but also a grim satisfaction that I made the right call.

As it is I now I have to pay for flying, but get paid to play trains. Almost a win-win situation. If/when I get my new airplane it will be.

[FGD135]

Just what did you base this fantasy equation on, roughly?

Doubling a pilot's salary... Would the travelling public voluntarily agree to pay the extra money in the ticket price to allow this?

Generally speaking, no. (I know some here would disagree with this. And no, increasing the ticket price by $0.20 won't do it).

But the money must come from somewhere. Here is how it must be done:

Sack every odd numbered pilot and pay their salary to the even numbered pilots. The evens have now achieved the doubling of their salary.

But this would mean, of course, only half the number of pilots still flying - so there would be only half the number of aircraft flying.

So, the travelling public would be getting only half as far for their money (so as to speak). They would have to pay double what they did before, in other words.

As I said above, the travelling public would not accept this voluntarily. It would have to be forced upon them. How to do that?

Strike action.

Edited to add: Some here will not understand what I have written above. What I have said is: there is only one way to achieve immediate and significant improvements for pilots, and that is strike action. But that will put significant numbers of pilots out of work.

[phatmike128]

removed post

[soseg]

Like all things in aviation it always takes something big and bad to happen first before changes are made:ouch:

[Trojan1981]

after the military, and instead joined the railways. $45K in my first year, $65K in my second, and last year $95K including a little overtime and my meagre allowances.

After getting through flight screening I quit the ADF and joined the railway to pay for my own licence, and finished it fairly quickly.

Sydney Passenger Train Driver = $85-100k (more for a trainer)
Guard = $65-85k
Freight Train Driver = $140k+

Now I am finished I probably wont make that kind of money for a long time, if ever. This despite sinking $60k into training. There is something very backwards about that.

I don't regret doing it but recent trends in pilot T&Cs make me wonder whether I should bother to persue aviation as a long term career or fall back on my degree, find a decent paying, but boring job and fly my own plane on weekends.

I can't see the situation ever changing

[Charliethewonderdog]

Just interested if you train drivers are in a union? and if so which one?

[Trojan1981]

For NSW its the RTBU (Rail Tram Bus).

Not the best union but probably in a stronger position than any in aviation. They only have to deal with a few large employers and have very high membership.

[xjt]

"Not the best union but probably in a stronger position than any in aviation. They only have to deal with a few large employers and have very high membership."


there's strength in unity and numbers.......who would have thought???

[Metro man]

I don't regret doing it but recent trends in pilot T&Cs make me wonder whether I should bother to persue aviation as a long term career or fall back on my degree, find a decent paying, but boring job and fly my own plane on weekends.

Why not find a decent paying and INTERESTING job instead, they are around.

Only go into flying if:
1. Someone else is paying, military or cadetship or
2. You are well cashed up and writing off $60K if it doesn't work out isn't going to affect you.
3. You have something else to fall back on that can give you an alternative career.

Going into debt or selling your house to fund flying training isn't a viable option these days given the poor and very uncertain returns.

I managed to get lucky and now fly an airliner BUT the terms and conditions are far less than I expected when I started flying and the race is on to the bottom.

Had I not scored this job I would be PMing KRvation to find out about getting on as a train driver.:(

[KRviator]

Since I've had multiple PM's asking "How does one get a job driving trains?", here's the basics:

I work for Pacific National, in Newcastle on coal trains. The Coal division is after new trainees for Newcastle, Mudgee, Antiene (Muswellbrook) and Port Kembla depots. Look on the company website here (http://www.pacificnational.com.au/corporate/employment.asp) about 4 jobs down and follow the links. Sell any heavy vehicle experience you've got, your attitude to safety and following the rules, as well as being a team player. "Liasing with Air Traffic Control, refuelling staff, passengers and maintenance personnell" sounds good to managers.

Queensland Rail (http://careers.qr.com.au/searchResults.asp?stp=AW&sLanguage=en&lWorkTypeID=&lLocationID=&lCategoryID=) is also on the lookout for people. Otherwise use Seek and search for "Locomotive".

Depending who and where you work will depend on how much you get paid (It varies depending on hours worked, train types, crewing arrangements and a host of other things), but straight off the street you'll be on around $35,000 during your 3 months probation, then step up to around $60,000 or so, and when you get qualified (12-24 months depending on depot) you can expect as a minimum $80,000 or thereabouts. The $140K+ talked of a page or two ago is limited to the Iron Ore trains in WA pretty much.

The hours genuinely suck, shifts can be worked upto 11 hours generally, with around 11 hours (minimum) off between shifts, but this will vary with who and where you work. Depending on what depot you're at you might do "barracks" working, our version of onvernight trips, where you'll signoff away from your home base and then work a train home the next shift. Reasonable $$ doing this, as you get meal allowances and the like.

Overtime is paid for working on your RDO's and if you exceed 152 hours per 4 week cycle, which is easy to do here, but other depots won't even get close. for PN, it's paid at 1.7x your base rate. Be warned though, officially my base rate is about $55,000, and various percentages currently 27.5% make up our "Aggregate Rate" which is the absolute minimum you'll earn a year. It is this "Aggregate Rate" that I called my base rate on the previous page when I referred to the $75,000 salary.

Leave is 5 weeks a year, 15 days sick leave a year (Varies with employers), some operators pay penalties if your rostered shift changes (we don't get that) and equipment varies between locomotives that are nearly 50 years old to some of the latest engines on rails.

Air con is fitted to all locomotives, some have CD players, all have fridges kettles and hotplates, some have microwaves, and the majority have loo's fitted, even though on the older loco's this just drops straight through to the trackbed.:eek:

If anyone's planning on applying, forget having a social life, and be warned that driving trains has resulted in many marriage breakdowns due to the shiftwork and godawful hours. But in saying that, the $$ are alright, and it certainly isn't a phyiscally demanding job.

I wouldn't be caught doing anything else.:ok:

[Metro man]

And here's how to get on as an airline pilot:

I work for a low cost carrier in Asia, to get on you will need a CPL and a type rating total cost around $100 000. We don't pay for any of this so it's out of your own pocket, nor do we pay while you take around 18 months to complete everything. Pray your licence issue co incides with us hiring and not a down turn like we're just coming out of.

Pay and conditions are on a downward slide with rumours of cuts, as an f/o I made around AU$110 000 last year with no benefits and living in a high cost country. Skipper makes 50% more, time to upgrade 1-4 years depending on ability and turnover. 5/2 5/4 roster pattern 25 days of leave ie 5 x 5 day blocks you can have off. 1000 hrs per year, no pay if you work on a day off but you get it back later on.

Generally good equipment, brand new jets with a few slightly tired ones. Air con, no CD players, no fridge, water boiler and conventional oven available bring your own lunch. All have loos, vacuum operated.

The hours often suck with many early sign ons and back of the clock operations. Rostered anything from 4 to 13 hours duty time. Start and finish at home base, no day or night stops.

If anyone's planning on applying, forget having a social life, and be warned that driving aircraft has resulted in many marriage breakdowns due to the shiftwork and godawful hours. But in saying that, the $$ are alright, and it certainly isn't a phyiscally demanding job.

Anyone contemplating a piloting career should be aware that even if they are lucky at every stage it will take years to break even compared to using their $100K to buy an investment property and working as a train driver. If stuck in the instructing/charter/regional levels for any length of time you may never be ahead.

Which of those rail companies were recruiting ?:}