Blog reports flight with medical emergency diverted to Toronto

[vovachan]

This from Avherald. I mean can they refuse landing to plane with a medical emergency going on? I know they are the US and can do whatever the hell they want, but this is like sinking to new lows:eek:


Incident: Aeroflot A332 over Atlantic on Oct 8th 2009, medical emergency refused by USA

An Aeroflot Airbus A330-200, registration VQ-BBF performing flight SU-334 (dep Oct 7th) from Havana (Cuba) to Moscow Sheremetyevo (Russia), was enroute overhead the Atlantic at FL350 about 320nm southeast of New York, when the crew talking very good English reported a passenger (German citizen) had become sick and requested to divert to New York's JFK Airport, but changed their diversion destination to Toronto,ON (Canada) just before reaching the top of descent into JFK about 120nm southeast of JFK. The airplane landed safely on Toronto's runway 24R about 2.5 hours after the first decision to divert and about 4.5 hours after departure. The passenger was taken to a local hospital.

Passengers reported, that the German became pale about 30 minutes into the flight initially raising suspicions of being sea sick, but then began to vomit blood about 2 hours into the flight. Two doctors on board provided first aid. The crew decided to divert to New York, but later announced, that their flight wasn't accepted into the United States and they'd need to divert to Toronto.

The airplane reached Moscow with a delay of 3.5 hours.

The German passenger is reported on the way to recovery.

FlightAware > Aeroflot - Russian International Airlines #334 > 08-Oct-2009 > MUHA-UUEE (http://flightaware.com/live/flight/AFL334/history/20091008/0110Z/MUHA/UUEE)

[EISNN]

No flights into or out of Cuba are allowed to divert into the US even in the event of an emergency. This is due to the trade embargo that still exists. Obama will probably be looking into this soon too though.

[ron83]

well, I think this is crazy... emergency,that's it :ugh::ugh:
actually if passenger wouldn't recover,relatives could sue US:rolleyes:

[Halfbaked_Boy]

Commander discretion - may disregard laws in the persuance of preserving human life?

Or am I barking up the wrong tree? I'm only a humble PPL, but if I was denied landing and had a medical emergency on board... sorry, but that's it, there's nothing more important in my mind than getting that person to the treatment they require.

Then again, I've never been exposed to the commercial pressures of aviation, and I guess that's a dangerous game to play when it comes to the U.S...


Edited to say - In light of my first comment, I guess you'd also be evaluating the chances of being 'removed from the sky by force' (!) in making that decision, but then again, this does seem extremely wrong, from a moral perspective.

[RoyHudd]

Try visiting Cuba before damning the USA. Prison state, damnable poverty, and the Marxist SOB's often choose to turn flights away from their airspace which have been filed and have Overflight Clearance.

And a medical emergency would be a sentence of death if the poor person was taken to a Cuban hospital. Forget the propaganda to which many fall prey to. The Cuban medical system is almost non-existent in practice.

Yep, I've lived in Cuba, worked there, and also lived and worked in the USA. In commercial aviation.Qualified.

[JetMender]

I know of a British charter flight ex Cuba diverting to the US for a medical emergency a few years ago. Once patient offloaded, flight continued to UK. :hmm:

[411A]

Or am I barking up the wrong tree?

Yup, barking up the wrong tree.
Other countries have this descretion also, and not just with Cuba.
For example, I personally know of two flights that were told, in no uncertain terms....'Do not land here again, even if you are on fire.'
USA?
Nope.
Saudi Arabia.

IE: Whomever has the big stick, calls the tune.
True yesterday, today....and tomorrow.

Yep, I've lived in Cuba, worked there, and also lived and worked in the USA. In commercial aviation.Qualified.

About summes it up, I would think.
IE: Don't believe everything you read in the left leaning western press about Cuba.
Think....dial the clock back sixty years.

[CargoOne]

EISNN

You cannot choose alternate in US if your origin or destination is Cuba. However you still can divert in case of emergency and this happened in the past. The only risk of divertion is US citizens on board, they will be fined for visiting Cuba. And this is too happended in the past, however it is more about Canadian operators.

[Donkey497]

Commander discretion - may disregard laws in the persuance of preserving human life?

A most humanitarian gesture in principle, however, consider very carefully the location.

I would estimate that if a pilot of an embargoed airline declared a medical emergency then started an unauthorised descent into a very busy airport, then there would be a pair of F-16s of its wingtips and other one at least line astern for a missile lock inside 10 minutes if not significantly less than 5.

If the said pilot then proceeded towards the airport, ignoring the fighter's instructions to turn away we would have an automatic shootdown as a defence against the potentially hi-jacked aircraft to rearrange the Manhattan skyline once more.

[Agaricus bisporus]

Donkey. Yeah, that's about right, I think...

Are you really so racially brainwashed that you imagine for one moment that the US would shoot down a civil airliner after it had declared a Mayday? Which planet do you inhabit?

God spare us from ignorant bigotry like this.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Are you really so racially brainwashed that you imagine for one moment that the US would shoot down a civil airliner after it had declared a Mayday? Which planet do you inhabit?
Planet Earth, at a guess, on which most people would believe that.

Edited to add:

Yup. I've just described the scenario to another inhabitant of Planet Earth and asked "what do you think would have happened if the aircraft had flown towards JFK anyway insisting it was going to land despite being told not to?", and the answer I got was "they'd be shot down of course, well duh".

[gravity enemy]

To be fair to Donkey, he was referring to a situation in which an aircraft strays off course and on the Captains discretion, ie. no clearance assumes a descent towards JFK. What makes you think the aircraft won't be intercepted?

[Donkey497]

Are you really so racially brainwashed that you imagine for one moment that the US would shoot down a civil airliner after it had declared a Mayday? Which planet do you inhabit?

God spare us from ignorant bigotry like this.

I'm truly sorry that you should feel this way towards my opinion. However, as an employee of an american company, a daily correpsondent with various north & south american colleagues & a frequent visitor to the US, usually transiting via New York I feel that the US remains incredibly jumpy about any potential terrorist threat, especially any potential airborne threat.

If you wish to test the veracity of this prevailing state of mind in the US, I would suggest that you make enquiries about the *****-storm that happened not long after Barack Obama took office when the White House decided that new publicity shots of Air Force One were needed and arranged for a low level flypast of AF1 over New York. Having spoken to colleagues who are part of US reserve forces, this shoot down policy is an option.

I would also suggest that you refer to a thread under the military section on Pprune regarding the London Olympics in 2012 where you will find discussions relating precisely to shooting down hijacked airliners over London. The problem with this policy, aside from the loss of life in the air is the collateral damage on the ground that happens when the debris from such an action falls to earth.

Personally, I find the thought that this might occur anywhere to be thoroughly repugnant. However, this is the situation that we are in, all thanks to Osama's boys in Al-Q and the other assorted nutcases that are affiliated to them.

I am not responsible for either the US Government's or any other Government's policy in regard to these individuals, organisations and the actions they may take. However, there are some rather draconian options which these Governments have put on the table as options for themselves to take which make the daily nonsense we suffer at check-in look like a holiday camp.

Agaricus, I live in hope that one day the human race will come to the stage where each member of it can accept the other members of the human race for who they are and can live in peace with each other. However, on a daily basis I am continually disappointed by man's continuing ingenuity ion finding ways to be inhumane to their fellow man.

I hope that you can appreciate that my original post was neither in support of either the action of the US in denying access nor the potential action should the pilot have persisted in his approach, but rather an assessment of why persisting in approaching could be potentially very dangerous to all on board.

Should you still feel the need to flame my response, please do so by PM rather than on the board as there is enough feeding of the trolls otherwise.

[oceancrosser]

Try visiting Cuba before damning the USA. Prison state, damnable poverty, and the Marxist SOB's often choose to turn flights away from their airspace which have been filed and have Overflight Clearance.

And a medical emergency would be a sentence of death if the poor person was taken to a Cuban hospital. Forget the propaganda to which many fall prey to. The Cuban medical system is almost non-existent in practice.

Yep, I've lived in Cuba, worked there, and also lived and worked in the USA. In commercial aviation.Qualified.I actually have, flying in and out of Cuba for years, and across it on the way from US/CAN to CAR/SAM destinations. Never any problem. Courteous and pretty well english speaking ATC.
Their political system does not work, no bones about it, but therein lies no threat to the US.

The Cuban medical system is probably very limited in its resources except people, Cuba provides doctors and nurses to many SAM countries where they probably get more resources to work with.

[WhatsaLizad?]

Any pilot transiting the US ADIZ should be well aware of what needs to be done and what is expected in cases of medical of aircraft emergencies. I would also note that if the 320nm SE of JFK is correct, it was only 15 minutes of additional flying time to land in Bermuda.

[iwhak]

Wasn't so long ago that the Russians shot down a Korean 747 for airspace violation!

[Brakes on]

Roy,
what has the political and medical situation in Cuba got to do with the US denying an airliner an emergency landing due to a medical problem on board?
And they were lucky that the denied request wasn't "a sentence of death" to the passenger.
For clarification: I am talking about the situation in Cuba, not the American-Cuban political situation.

[lomapaseo]

Looks like folks still believe what they read or imagine to be true.

Some of the brain washing coments above belong in Jet Blast.

I prefer to let the media sort out the issues before we create them for them.

IMO there should be a lot more questions then opinions about what happened and why.

[ba97]

Why would a pilot not divert to Bermuda, given how close it was?

[cargosales]

Sounds like the sanity that Obama is finally bringing to US politics wouldn't go amiss in the civil aviation world either.

Medical emergency vs political posturing against a 3rd world state. FFS ! :ugh:

[ExSp33db1rd]

Remember the Boeing 727 that overshot Cairo and strayed into Israeli air space ? About 40 years ago if memory serves. Nothing new under the sun.

[West Coast]

Can someone point me to the reference that says under no circumstances can a plane divert to a US airport given the situation as described?

[StbdD]

And while we are at it can anyone PROVE this event happened at all except in a poorly written post on an aviation blog?

And can it be PROVED that the US turned them away if such a flight and diversion did exist because the post sure seemed to indicate they were cleared into US airspace before they decided to divert. You don't get to top of descent into JFK without being in controlled airspace.

Of course there is no chance someone decided to twist some facts to make some political points on a web blog. We're all professionals right?

[USav8or]

Interesting article but it appears it was the pilot in command who preferred to fly to Canada versus the US after declaring the medical emergency...



Probably after receiving an ACAR message from the company? Once on US soil any person, including foreign business men and women found to be violating the US laws of embargo with Cuba can be arrested. By violating the embargo terms I mean foreign, usually European companies that are doing business with companies in Cuba that used to be American owned until Castor nationalized them and then years later sold parts of them to the Europeans. The US and most of the anti-Castor refugees view it as theft and as a European I tend to agree.

Similar to what Venezuela is doing nowadays... Force a company to sell for pennies to the Venezuelan government or simply take it over and then sell parts of the new venture to a different country.

Something tells me Aerolflot realized they might have a few of those business folks on board and chose to fly to another country that actively participates in violating the embargo.

[muduckace]

So what is agreed upon here is that politics supersedes humanity, what a sick world we live in...

[Wannabe Flyer]

The Passenger seems to have recovered with no damage so far, flight proceeded 3.5 hrs late.

Pilots have learned that in future when overflying the US from Cuba divert to Canada as it is both politically correct and better chances of not being "escorted down" Excellent learning in this forum. :D

[USav8or]

"...So what is agreed upon here is that politics supersedes humanity, what a sick world we live in..."

Well, I guess so. Call it politics or simply the PIC's decision probably based on his/her company's "strong encouragement".

[USav8or]

"...Pilots have learned that in future when overflying the US from Cuba divert to Canada as it is both politically correct and better chances of not being "escorted down" Excellent learning in this forum..."

Better yet, encourage your respective governments not to deal with stolen (nationalized) assets. Problem solved...

Remember, the embargo does NOT apply to foreign businesses dealing with Cuba. It applies to foreign businesses dealing with Cuban businesses that were taken away from their owners by Castro and given away "for a small fee" ;) to many European and Canadian businesses. Most of the former rightful owners live nowadays on Florida and have numerous lawsuits pending against some of the "new owners". If those new owners'representatives happen to enter the US - the State Department has little choice but to follow the law - i.e. arrest the "thief" representatives.

[Michael Birbeck]

"...Pilots have learned that in future when overflying the US from Cuba divert to Canada as it is both politically correct and better chances of not being "escorted down" Excellent learning in this forum..."



What would have happened if this aircraft (for example) had had to declare a Mayday due to mechanical issues and had ultimately had an accident as it strove to reach Canada rather than a US alternate? A good learning point for this forum?

More like the foolishness of politics leading to the endangerment of innocent lives in the air and on the ground.

One would hope that politics whether correct or expedient can be driven out of air travel world wide so that that anomalous situations like are erradicated in the name of safety and (yes) in the name of the humanity of innocent passengers and air crew.

[beardy]

I seem to recall an Air Transat Airbus with a missing rudder, abeam Florida, who elected to return to Varadero rather than complicate life by diverting to the closest airport, in the USA.

[USav8or]

Michael - I agree with your post. Seems to me it was the PIC and the airline involved that chose convenience (possibly lots of paper work) over the actual emergency.

As far as declaring emergencies - "Brakes On" - stop the nonsense of US military denying aircraft entrance in case of an emergency - simply not factual. In an emergency any aircraft will be let in. Getting out might be a different, probably a pretty lengthy procedure.

Also and a little off the subject - I used to fly over the Cuban airspace heading to Cancun and the Cuban controllers were very helpful with weather advisories when asked. Their English skills were much better than in Mexico too btw. That's a different story.

[USav8or]

Beardy - the flight you mentioned was still in contact with the Cuban controllers AND the winds at the airport they took off from were calm. Winds were their main concern having only partial rudder control.

The MIA center had already been notified of a possible emergency flight from Cuba - know this from a friend who used to work the ATC in southern Florida.

[jetopa]

I suppose that no commander of any armed forces (of a civilized country, that is) will dare to order a shootdown of a commercial airliner whose crew has trufully and repeatedly said the 'e-word' and stated the nature of its problems and intentions. Even after 9-11 I find that hard to believe. Given this assumption, when a pilot of an airplane in distress does not allow a 'less cooperative' air traffic controller to intimidate him/her, it's fair game according to 14 CFR § 91.3 ('In an in-flight emergency requiring immediate action, the pilot in command may deviate from any rule of this part to the extent required to meet that emergency.') to insist on landing at a US airport (maybe not so close to downtown Manhattan) and start descending.

If I am not mistaken, any passenger who stays onboard an airplane will - according to internationally accepted diplomatic rules - technically remain the territory of the airplane's state of registry, even if the airplane itself stands on another country's soil. So, US authorities would have no jurisdiction over them.

[Huck]

Excellent learning in this forum.

All I'm learning is how gullible a bunch of you are.

And how low our stock has fallen here in the USA, that people would even believe such slanderous crap. Turning away an emergency aircraft... what, you think we drown puppies for fun too?

[411A]

If I am not mistaken,

Yes, you are mistaken, in many cases.

[WhatsaLizad?]

Looks like the mods moved this to "Non Airline Transport Stuff" in the "Non Airline Forums".

You have got to be kidding.:ugh:

This subject has got to be one of the more relevant things I have ever seen started on Prune and is light years ahead of 99% of the other crap here. Diversions due to medical emergencies are one of the most common things that happen to us commercial pilots. The information learned from problems can be a great help no matter if it was the US, Israel, North Korea, Pakistan-India or any other sensitive border.

You mods already tolerate any discussions on accidents to degenerate in a yahoo chatboard of clueless posters, why move the thread in this case?

[West Coast]

So none of you have found any supporting documentation to prove what a written in some blog and stirred you up, nor has anyone given a reference to the exclusionary document that prohibits emergencies from divurting to the US.

I have a bridge to sale as well. Anyone heard the one about the US aircraft carrier and the lighthouse?
Figure the gullible will have a field day with that story.

This thread furthers the case for pprune being limited to professional pilots, not that some of them aren't so stupid to believe the story as well.

[lomapaseo]

This subject has got to be one of the more relevant things I have ever seen started on Prune and is light years ahead of 99% of the other crap here. Diversions due to medical emergencies are one of the most common things that happen to us commercial pilots. The information learned from problems can be a great help no matter if it was the US, Israel, North Korea, Pakistan-India or any other sensitive border.


Agree

It's not the threads fault, its the that gets these threads into trouble. Had the mods chosen to delete this non-pertinent stuff then all we would have is the rumor opening post and nothing more to discuss.

and it really isn't pilots vs the unwashed that either cause or solve discussion board problems. It's our collective behaviour of associating cause-effect without knowledge



Had the mods chosen to delete the politicizing and postulations about facts-not-in-evidence and non-pertinent stuff, there would have been no thread at all.

[SNS3Guppy]

Now that everyone is done expressing their indignation and bashing the United States, let's refer back to the article which stated:

The crew decided to divert to New York, but later announced, that their flight wasn't accepted into the United States and they'd need to divert to Toronto.


The article does not state that a landing clearance was denied, or that the United States refused the aircraft. It makes a very generic statement that the flight "wasn't accepted," and nothing more. As "wasn't accepted" isn't an aviaiton term, and is therefore incorrect, we are left without any specific meaning as to what this term means.

Perhaps one should clarify what actually took place before flying off the handle with baseless opinion.

So far as heroic (and idiotic) notions of simply diverting without any regard to other traffic, clearances, air traffic control, international laws and regulations, or the safety of the flight...no. That's not going to happen.

One should remember that the pilot in command is responsible not only for the sick passenger, but for all passengers as well as for the safety of the aircraft.

New York is a busy place. Busy enough that I've taken four hours to move an aircraft seven miles from JFK to EWR (New York to Newark, just across the river). Getting in and out is not a simple task. Aside from traffic management issues, numerous other factors bear consideration, from legal, political, safety, security, and other points must be taken into account.

A blog article has been presented for consideration. The news media, nearly always wrong and vague with respect to all things aviation, seldom gets the story right. The "news" amounts to little more than an entertainment service with a few occasionally correct facts thrown in for spice, anyway. Here, a debate has ensued regarding the actions of all parties concerned, when the truth is that we don't know the actions (or reactions) of the parties concerned. Perhaps before some of you get on your high horse again, you should find out.

[Taildragger67]

Why would a pilot not divert to Bermuda, given how close it was?
Availability of appropriate medical care?


actually if passenger wouldn't recover,relatives could sue US

No they couldn't, the US is within its lawful right to enact laws as it sees fit and if properly passed and constitutional, they would not be subject to challenge.

[NG_Kaptain]

Bermuda medical care is very good as is Cuba. It's a matter of distance and severity of medical condition. If I were flying over the Indian sub continent and had a medical emergency I would think very hard on my choice of diversion airports, can I get them on the ground now and have them die or wait and choose a more appropriate airport where the attention may be better. The same in the Caribbean, I would overfly Trinidad or Antigua if Barbados or Puerto Rico were available, but that is just local knowledge.

[USav8or]

"...Bermuda medical care is very good as is Cuba..."

Agree when it comes to Bermuda. Cuba? Not so much unless your name is Michael Moore. Have close friends who still have relatives in Havana. The "basic" care, check-ups, testing, etc. are all good but if you truly get sick, heart attack, cancer, etc. good luck.

My friends are hard-core Democrats (would call themselves Social-Democrats or Liberals if they lived in Europe). Even they do NOT claim Cuba has good health care. Many good doctors but woefully underfunded clinics and hospitals. Long lines to most "serious" treatments.

Of course, I'm sure a diverted aircraft with foreigners onboard would get the "Red Star" treatment from the Cuban government. :hmm:

I sure hope I won't ever be on your aircraft with a medical emergency... Your "local knowledge" seems to be highly influenced by MSNBC and CNN Comrade Moore.

PS. Before you accuse me of being a right-wing fanatic or a racist (very en vogue nowadays with ANY critisism against The Messiah) - I consider myself a centrist and was born and raised in Europe.

[Matt101]

Damn commie bast@rds. Good grief, haven't we moved on a little yet? Thankfully quite soon you'll all have retired and those of us left around, who can't remember the cold war, can move on. (tongue a little in cheek at all points)

[USav8or]

I might be around a little longer... :) I'm only 30 but old enough to remember the best US president of them all - Ronald Reagan! He said what he meant and he did what he said...

[keskildi]

Cuba embargo deep motives are not exactly tending to press the island to restore democracy but just to obtain some kind of refund for the ''owners'' of the island in the 50's ;

remember, the capital, Havana, was mafia property, tended by Meyer Lanski and Bugsy Siegel with their ''friendly dictator'' at hand.

what they (the Florida retirees) actually claim with their heirs, from the comfort of their Florida homes, was in fact stolen to the Cuban people in the 30's to 50's

anyway, no excuse to the actual behavior of the Castro government but this ''return of stolen property'' claim is quite based on bloodied sand...

and yes, Cuba downed US civilian light planes and that is not acceptable...

[Matt101]

As I said USav8or tongue in cheek matey! :) (plus I remember the cold war - just)

What I meant really was to say that this thread is a little silly - the report would be very interesting if it had a little meat on it - all it seems to have inspired is a bit of bashing - either America (everyone's favourite pastime anyway) or Cuba (where they most probably won't care).

Have you seen Frost Vs. Nixon? great film I thought - I never thought I would feel sorry for Nixon in my life though!

[USav8or]

I agree Matt - I was semi-serious as well. ...and yes, I have seen the movie, better than I expected it to be...

[Pugilistic Animus]

YouTube - JFK ground (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUnVlyyar4M)

Yeah JFK is where I'd wanto to go if I were sick:rolleyes:

[USav8or]

To be fair to all JFK controllers - say the word (Mayday or Pan Pan) and it's amazing how fast they'll clear the area for you...

[Pugilistic Animus]

Yes they are utmost professionals indeed just a little tongue and cheek ---I could NOT survive one minute on that frequency as a controller:\

PA