Terminal 5

[richlear]

I fly a lot and have always made it a rule to avoid Heathrow whenever I can. However, yesterday I had my first experience of T5.

I arrived from CPH on BA813 and was heading out to Houston on BA197. I was very disappointed with the efficiency of the security and associated nonsense. It took nearly 1 hour to get from gate to gate, this is in the same terminal with the same airline! This is ridiculous. T5 is supposed to be the newest flagship terminal and it was a mess. The security team were having to hold groups on the ground floor and only letting them upstairs every now and again resulting in large queues for no apparent reason.

I talked to one of the security team and they agreed that it was poor but of course they are only doing their best.

Anyone else had similar experience?

It seems my policy of avoiding Heathrow is right......

Cheers

rich

[daz211]

I have never used T5, however last week I took DL out of T4 it was the easiest flight I have ever taken the terminal was almost empty security took 3mins thats after a check-in the same time, I was very impressed.
Even the carpark was empty.

[ExXB]

I continue to avoid Heathrow, particularly a T5 connection.

[747-436]

I don't think connections at LHR, particulaly at T5 are that bad, the problem described above seems to stem from the incompetence of BAA security!!

[silverstreak]

T5 isnt all that easy to get through either inbound or out.

Trains, escilators/lifts and walkways make it a very laborious task connecting the main T5 building with the satelite terminal.

[strake]

I went through T5 this morning on my way to Chicago. I decided to give the experience every chance and approached with an open mind. Security in Fast Track was ridiculous. People's trays were being mixed up before going into the x-ray machine. As you have to use a tray for everything, one pax can have three or four trays by the time you have a roll-on, bag, jacket belt shoes etc. The confusion at the other end of the conveyor was a sight to behold. The BA girl at the entrance to the Concorde Room had a fixed smile (or grimmace) as one after another, First passengers were ejected towards her .
Then there's the bussing..still the bussing. First to Chicago is £6500 return. For this, at the airport, you make your way downstairs and join a long queue..no priority boarding. After being bashed about and then driven for ten minutes, you fight with the scrum to get onto the plane.
As I took my seat, a person whom anyone who watches BBC F1 would recognise instantly, arrived at the seat just behind mine. "That, he said "was :mad: ridiculous....."
Sums it up really.

[Guest 112233]

Yep when I flew to SFO earlier this year through T5 , The security was not too badly organised but the long ques and the cramped rattling, spine giggling ride to the plane was totally crap. A BA gold card holder and his SWMBO who had just connected from GLA were not impressed at all. Has nothing changed ? Is the satillite terminal still under construction ?.

BA are loosing "Full and premium fare customers" both connecting and UK by the, day ! - OK I'm only a regular "World Traveller Ha Ha" - The cutting of the the USA baggage allowance is the last straw ! Idiots. Yes I know it was unusually generious but the Kg's came in handy on a long trip. Roll on connecting through flights by A380's from LHR to the US by Middle Eastern carriers with nice big baggage allowances.

CAT III

[Fargoo]

Is the satillite terminal still under construction ?.

Yes, T5C is still under construction. That's part of the problem which means bussing is required. I agree that it's not perfect but having flown through FRA several times recently I conclude that it's a problem not limited to LHR sadly :(

[Guest 112233]

To put it in context the bus was filty. The 25 min wait at the pier prior to boarding (the bus) without explanation really did annoy the pax big time - Copied yor mention about FRA though. KLM AMS/SFO next trip for me thanks.

CAT III

[Capot]

I came back through T5 yesterday evening.....no hold ups, met by bag on carousel, straight out to Bus Stop 22.

On the way to UKBA I did notice that transit passengers were milling about a bit, slightly confused.

As an aside, I arrived on a BA B777 after 7 hour flight....I haven't seen such a tired-looking cabin with so many seat defects in the cattle cabin since I last flew BAF. Nothing very serious apart from broken arms and faulty recline mechanisms, but the overall impression is poor, with frayed belts, worn-out cushions, stained plastics, toilet looking old, etc etc. The cabin service was fine; it was let down by the ambience.

[WHBM]

In a proper world BA would be having Heathrow's Guts For Garters if they in any way messed up services they provide (eg transit security at T5) to give anything other than a premium experience.

In fact Willie Walsh is more concerned with lining himself up to take over from O'Leary at Ryanair when the latter heads for nice early retirement, and this takes precedence over any effort on behalf of BA. The rest of the board are following his example as well. So nobody from BA says a word to Ferrovial, who continue in their merry extreme cash-saving ways to try and pay off the debt they voluntarily got into when they bought Heathrow in the first place.

[Ancient Observer]

Ferrovial "Bet the family" on their takeover of BAA and they could not have got their timing more wrong.
The cultural drivers are massively different - Ferrovial are cutting costs "to save the family" (the owners). Willy and Co are just managers, with no such motivation.

therefore, Ferrovial will carry on as they are and will ignore both BA and other customers.

[Jarvy]

I have used T5 a few times and always found it quite good, much better than T3.
As for the bussing remember T5 is only 2/3rds finished. Also did you want your own bus just for first???

[strake]

Also did you want your own bus just for first

Yes, why not? Maybe for First and Club World

If I or my company pay for "First", then it's reasonable to expect a "First" service. On the other hand, if we pay for World Traveller, we would expect a level of service comensurate with the cost of the ticket.

[Jarvy]

OK if first and club would all borad at the same time but I know from experience that they don't. If they held you till everyone was ready you would complain but there are not enough busses for you to have one each!!
Its not perfect every time we fly but we all expect it to be so. It matters not what you pay. You are paying for better food, bigger seat and a better lounge but the service should always be the same regrdless of class.

[Rusland 17]

You are paying for better food, bigger seat and a better lounge but the service should always be the same regrdless of class.i disagree. If you're paying to travel in Club or First then you are paying for - and entitled to expect - a better service at every point of your journey, from fast-track security right through to priority offloading of bags. Bussing first class passengers to a plane - even if it were a bus solely for the use of first class passengers - is a shameful situation.

[Skipness One Echo]

Todays thought for the day is the BA Transit bus commessurate with a First Class Fare. We begin with a warm welcome from Eddy, your driver, followed by a complimentary seat, space permitting. Due to unforseen potholes, turbulence MAY be enountered and those not seated are advised to hold on tight. As this is a First Class transit bus, a fine wine will be served from a warm cup as you enjoy the famed BA handbrake turn. Thank you for choosing to drive with British Airways.

[ulxima]

however last week I took DL out of T4 it was the easiest flight I have ever taken the terminal was almost empty security took 3mins thats after a check-in the same time


You have been lucky.
Took KL out of T4, arrived at the terminal 45 minutes before the flight having already checked in via internet.
One minute to drop the baggage.
Then queue....and queue...and queue....until I heard my name being called, the last passenger to board the flight.
I do not know whether the Qantas A380 next to us was the reason of this long queue and huge amount of people through security, maybe yes....

The queue this morning at T3 (SK to OSL) was "normal". It did not take too long. But in OSL the queue at Passport control made me to miss the connecting flight.
I am looking forward to Wednesday at T2 (AZ to FCO).

Ciao
Ulxima

[Capetonian]

I posted this on a Gatwick thread but as it pertains to T5, here goes again :
It refers to two middle aged professional couples travelling together, in business class, transatlantic - we're not talking about a group of hooligans. This is an appalling indictment on BAA security and on BA since they, as the main customer at T5, ought to be able to use their influence to secure higher standards.

We reached the boarding gates and I was pulled aside for a random search. The rest of our party automatically stood aside to wait for me and the security officer decided this was not necessary and tackled them with a barrage of words demanding that they move on - well xxxxxx definitely felt that she was rude and told her so and refused to move but to take her name - she became incensed and became more rude and abusive and pulled xxxxxx out and made him be searched! It was all very upsetting and finally once we all boarded the plane xxxxxx reported her to the BA staff who were definitely unhappy about this and immediately followed it up by going to find this woman and get her name. She was rude to them as well and so an investigation/report was set in motion. Rudeness and victimization is not on!

[Rusland 17]

This is an appalling indictment on BAA security and on BA since they, as the main customer at T5, ought to be able to use their influence to secure higher standards.Your conclusion is somewhat at odds with your own description of events. It seems to me that, far from being an "indictment", BA behaved quite properly in this situation. They can't be expected to be responsible for every action of every airport employee.

[Final 3 Greens]

Jarvy

The last time I flew F was with Swiss from ZRH.

The aircraft was at a midfield stand and I (and 2 other) pax were in the F class lounge in the main terminal.

They took us across in an SUV, so we would not have to use the (very efficient) underground railway.

That's what you expect for a first class fare and Strake has every reason to complain bitterly about being give economy class service for an F fare.

[Jarvy]

Ok then when T5 is finished this shouldn't be a problem. Is there a special train that goes to B & C(when open) just for first . No? thought not.
Having to get a bus out to any aircraft is not good news for anyone be they in first or down the back.
We all have a choice so if you don't like BA or T5 don't use them. I like T5 and BA, I don't work for either and never have, but sometimes it does go wrong but mostly it goes right.

[Capetonian]

Rusland17

Your conclusion is somewhat at odds with your own description of events. It seems to me that, far from being an "indictment", BA behaved quite properly in this situation. They can't be expected to be responsible for every action of every airport employee.

It isn't at all 'at odds'. In this one-off situation they reacted correctly to the situation which arose. The fact that such situations arise at all, and that they apparently do so with frequency, is an appalling indictment on BA. I stand by my original contention, although perhaps I could have expressed it more clearly.

[PAXboy]

This is an arrival, not tranist point, as I live 35 mins from LHR. Arrived BA from JNB early September. Landed 06:10 and, as we we were on a westerly approach on 27L (Southern), you can guess that we were on the stand very promptly.

On the BUSSING stand that is. As the bus wended it's way to the main building, I had plenty of time to inspect all the empty stands ... If the a/c was not going to be departing soon enough to warrant being on a proper stand - then just tow it off the stand, once the pax and freight have disembarked/offloaded. This sounds like a BA problem but I was really not impressed but, let me tell you about the departure 12 days earlier ...

Arrived 06:15 and the road signposting was still confusing even though it was my fourth visit there (previous was for others, this my first traverse of the terminal) the bag drop was reasonably painless as the place was not busy.

Security was slow and I was amused by all the mechanical handling of the trays. Great when it works but it will be a real laugh when it breaks down. Having worked in technology for 27 years I know the ONLY route is to Keep It Simple Stupid!

I walked through the arch and the alarm sounded. The attendant said, "It's probably because of the wheelchair." I had seen that a wheelchair was being pushed through a gate right next to the arch. So, it seems that pushing a metal wheelchair through a gate adjacent to the arch - will cause a false alarm on the person walking through, requiring them to be frisked. A) Design it differently. B) Having stuffed up the design, prevent a pax walking through the arch when a wheelchair is being moved through the gate!!!

The shopping area was vast and I had to look to find the way to the gates. Silly but I was expecting it. My flight departing from 'B' and decided to use the escalator as lifts usually have queues and are slow. NOTE: If pax traffic light = Use the lifts. The escalators are deadly slow and have a very long descent. Then there was a wait for a shuttle to 'B'. The distance is not great and travelators would have been much faster than waiting for the train, waiting for it to empty, waiting for everyone to board - for it to travel about 2,000 years. A pointless waste of money in constructing it and waste of time on my journey.

The 'B' was fine and all that I expected of a modern terminal except that ... both this and the main building had loads of wasted vertical space. There was a lot of room for hot air to go up and drift around - but space not being used. Whilst I appreciate that they do not want low ceilings for pax to feel cramped, I do not think that the 'open vista spaces' make the pax feel any different and it costs money to build upwards and money to heat the space.

Overall, my opinion of T5 on doing three 'delivery and meetings' and one departure/return, rates it as Average and VERY Average at that.

[Skipness One Echo]

You arrived early doors from JNB and saw some empty stands which by the time you were off through customs would have been full with the rather large amount of morning heavy arrivals. It is not unusual for an aircraft that is not going out again immediately to park off stand, leaving an airbridge ready for the hot aircraft behind you. That's actually sensible management of assets in an imperfect Terminal.

The sheer amount of BA tails at T5 whenever I am on a 9am departure shows BA are too big for T5, though that was always going to be the case.

[PAXboy]

SkipnessThat's actually sensible management of assets in an imperfect Terminal.Exactly, I agree 100%. The Terminal was imperfect before they laid the foundation stone!! I fully understand why we parked at a bussing stand and fully understand that BA (a wonderful airline to actually fly on) and BAA stuffed it up. The history of the past 50 years of EGLL made it inevitable.

It is just highly irritating to experience the Brits getting it wrong all over again!

[Final 3 Greens]

We all have a choice so if you don't like BA or T5 don't use them

I don't.

Neither do a lot of others.

The BA financials are not good.

Do you think there might be any correlation?

[lowcostdolly]

Skipness both posts a great reality check :D:D:D. I loved the bit about the warm wine and the handbrake turns..... classic!!

I've never been to T5 but I have experienced BA "service" from LGW on a thankfully short sector. Surly CC hurling out soggy bacon bloomers etc. However this was "cattle class" so I guess I shouldn't expect anything more. I had to walk to the plane as well.....no bus at all, first class or otherwise.

When I have experienced 1st on US airways LAX (upgraded so my young child could sit with me instead of the other end of the plane) I got a meal that didn't look if it was thrown together from the dry stores. It was served on bone china and my rather decent wine was from a real glass. It was served by CC whose jobs were not threatened because their company was in a "serious financial position". They therefore had a smile on their face :). I didn't however get a seperate bus to the terminal in Las vegas on disembarking or in LAX on boarding.

I've never experienced BA first so I presume you still get decent food, fine wine, glass and china etc......enjoy it well it lasts!

Willie is taking lessons from MOL on cutting costs, service (frills) and how to treat his staff :eek:!! Anybody watch the 30 minute ad for FR on the BBC last night to see how close he is getting?

A company that is in the position of BA will start cutting back on what they see as unnecessary costs.....that is the seperate bus for F pax for a start. I would hazard a guess it won't just be T5 you will see this happening in the future.

However as F ticket holders you should get something for the money you have paid......A BA logo'd umbrella perhaps when he eventually makes you walk to the plane along with the rest of "cattle class" in the rain!! If you are lucky enough to get a bus (shared with Cattle Class of course) then you can show them your F tickets. I'm sure they will be impressed on how much extra money you have to spend on BA first class......:rolleyes:

As I say in my landing PA "we Realise you have choices when you fly....:)!

Where did I put my hard hat again?......:uhoh:

[JayPee28bpr]

Heathrow generally is a dump. If you think arriving at T5 is bad, just try connecting between one of the remote terminals (T4/5) and the old ones (T1-3).

Nobody in their right mind connects flights at LHR. Schipol is far easier to navigate.

[Rusland 17]

I've never been to T5 but I have experienced BA "service" from LGW on a thankfully short sector. Surly CC hurling out soggy bacon bloomers etc. However this was "cattle class" so I guess I shouldn't expect anything more. I had to walk to the plane as well...
In other words, indistinguishable from travelling with a low-cost airline.

Which is exactly what BA is these days - the fare I pay when I fly BA is almost always lower than the fare I would pay to travel with Easyjet to the same destination.

[ExXB]

I admit to have been bused at Heathrow, but never Bussed (kissed) but maybe one day ...

I too believe that BA lets down their premium payers. My former company rarely paid for F, but for an absolutely necessary trip, with no other alternatives they did agree for a ticket to Canberra via Heathrow and Sydney. Of course my flight into Heathrow was delayed (inbound aircraft delayed due to fog). By the time I got there my connection time was down from a comfortable 3 hours to just over an hour. No problem I thought, I only have carry on, a T4 to T4 internal connection, and fast track security. Of course a huge queue. I asked quietly the BA person at the foot of the queue - (politely and quietly) Is there anything you can do? I've got a tight connection and I'm travelling in First. Foghorn, Leghorn shouted at me "So has everyone else!". Exasperated I replied (quietly) "I don't know why I bother to travel British Airways" to wish she replied. "I don't know why anyone does, your better off flying someone else, anyone else". I missed my connection, got into Canberra 18 hours later than planned, when straight into an important meeting with the Australian government and performed very badly. I was not amused.

You know, she was/is right! I now only travel BA to burn my miles. Almost down to zero, and then ... never again!

[Final 3 Greens]

I am just about to book a J class return from London to a middle eastern destination.

BA is about £200 more than Star Alliance and my client would accept that difference.

But.........


potential strike
reduced service levels


I am just about to press the accept button to use Swiss again, even with a change in ZRH, I prefer it.

[PAXboy]

JayPee28bprSchipol is far easier to navigate.According to other threads in this forum, Schipol has one of the worst reputations for losing bags on transit connections.

ExXBI admit to have been bused at Heathrow, but never Bussed (kissed) but maybe one day ...Thanks for the typo correction. perhaps I meant it as in 'Kiss BA goodbye?' Now, where's the 'smiley' for Kissing? Ah, PPRuNe doesn't have one. :p

[WHBM]

. Also did you want your own bus just for first???
Well many other airports manage to offer/organise a separate bus for premium class passengers, including a number overseas used by BA. Larnaca was one of these until recently, when a BA "cost review" led to the withdrawl of this separate service, doubtless to improve someone at Waterworld's bonus. Meanwhile most other mainstream operators at Larnaca continue to offer a premium transfer service for their premium passengers. But not BA any more.

[JayPee28bpr]

Schipol may be bad for losing bags, but BA is the undisputed world champion in that category. Just google "T5 opening" or similar and see the results. That gave BA/LHR a 25,000 bag start on anyone else.

"Teething troubles" I hear you say. Well BA managed to lose my bag on three successive trips up to Scotland from T1 a few years back.

Schipol may be bad, as you say. I've not experienced that. However, for sheer ineptitude in matching luggage with passengers, BA/LHR is in a league of its own.

[747-436]

Ok then when T5 is finished this shouldn't be a problem. Is there a special train that goes to B & C(when open) just for first . No? thought not.

No special train for First as far as I know, and why would you need it??
The train doesn't take you straight to the boarding gates so if there was a train just for certain passengers it would have no advantage what so ever.

Going to T5C there will be the train that is already there that goes from A to B. The track is already built. Sometimes when you get to T5 B the shutter is open and you can see the rest of the track to T5 C

[Jarvy]

No special train so why expect a special bus, thats what I was saying.
I know its the same train I too have seen that it goes on. What I was saying was that when C is finished then maybe there will be no need to bus people out to aircraft.
When we fly and we are paying we choose BA, my wife when she flys on her own and the company pays she can choose BA, AA or Virgin again she prefers BA. So thats our choice.
Thank you and good night

[Rusland 17]

I admit to have been bused at Heathrow, but never Bussed (kissed) but maybe one day ...According to most dictionaries, the past tense of "to bus" in British English is "bussed"; Americans spell it "bused".

e.g., from Collins:bus (buses plural) (busses 3rd person present) (bussing present participle) (bussed past tense & past participle )
The plural form of the noun is buses. The third person singular of the verb is busses. American English uses the spellings buses, busing, bused for the verb.And from the BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/8014717.stm):Lewisham Bridge Primary School pupils are being bussed from their school gates to a temporary school in nearby New Cross...This is consistent with the rules of British English spelling, in which final consonants are frequently doubled (e.g. travelled, which is spelt "traveled" in American English).

[Capetonian]

I admit to have been bused at Heathrow

I think he meant 'abused'.

[Rusland 17]

Schipol may be bad for losing bags, but BA is the undisputed world champion in that category.BA's record isn't great when it comes to losing bags, but it is by no means the "undisputed world champion".

The official figures for winter 2008-09 (the latest available) show that there are several airlines that lose more bags per passenger than BA, including Air France, Iberia and bmi. Other airlines, such as KLM, are on a par with BA. It should be obvious that airlines that operate complex connecting operations at major airports will lose more bags than those that operate point-to-point and/or from less busy airports. It should also be acknowledged that the final carrier in a passenger's journey must take a mishandled baggage report irrespective of who actually caused the error.

Statistics are rarely as clear cut as some people like to think they are.

[Final 3 Greens]

When we fly and we are paying we choose BA, my wife when she flys on her own and the company pays she can choose BA, AA or Virgin again she prefers BA. So thats our choice.

So how often do you fly in first?

[Jarvy]

Me never, nobody would let me up the front, but have traveled in all the other parts of the plane. Mrs J travels mainly in Club but has traveled up front but only when I'm not with her!!!

[jonathan3141]

When it works well anyway, which has been my usual experience. Very calm, quiet, I like the airiness, it doesn't feel crowded, toilets are clean! And when I've used it its been very quick to get through.

[Malone]

I agree with you Jonathan,
There are much worse places to be. I have never had a problem. The longest queue is often at WH Smiths!!
Withe regards to the security queues, I often find that the entrance up near the First check-in area is a lot less crowded for some reason.

[Final 3 Greens]

Having failed to find the recent thread on T5, I wish to share my experiences of using it on Friday 23 October, circa 6pm.

I chose BA/T5 because of schedule considerations and given that I was starting my journey in London, after completing a work engagement in the city. Class booked was J.

I arrived on the HEX and immediately found it difficult to get a lift (elevator) as they seemed to arrive at random, with little warning and people were literally pushing each other to get on board. Got one after a few minutes.

I had checked in online and very carefully read the instructions about the need for a visa check for certain countries. I had a visa for my trip, but it was not on the list, so I went straight to security south, passing the visa check desk and verifiying that my destination was not listed on the very clear signage.

Having queued for the 'fastrack' entrance (more later), I was then denied entry and told to report to BA. The reason, a requirement for a visa check :ugh:

When I returned, 50% of the total security lanes were closed and the 'fastrack' lane was making such slow progress that 5-6 of us asked to be let out, which the BAA lady i/c agreed to (also she apologized very gracefully and sincerely.)

Even so, it still took about 30 minutes to clear security.

The progress to the Terraces lounge required a good deal of vertical navigation, much more effort than accessing the Star* at ZRH.

The lounge itself was good, with plenty of capacity, a decent selection of snacks and drinks and helpful staff.

The stand was allocated well after I had checked into the lounge and was in the B satellite.

This was less than optimum, as the transfer across took about 15 minutes and whilst it didn't cause me any problems (as I predicted the boarding time and arrived just after the first call), it would have been better if there was some system of pre-boarding alert to prompt pax to start across.

At the boarding gate, there was no priority for premium pax and neither the escalator nor the lift was working, so people were having to walk down a flight of stairs with their hand luggage, inconvenient and potentially dangerous.

It also is a poor reflection of stand planning in a new terminal, when the gate is allocated relatively so late - seems like the 'on the day' plan may not have been very stable.

This experience was pretty much the same as the last time I used T5 in February this year.

Using ZRH (Main terminal and mid-field) as a benchmark index of 1.0, I would give terminal five a rating of 0.5.

I have just booked my next middle eastern trip and have chosed Swiss and ZRH once again.

Morale of the story (and bearing in mind that the flight left on time and was a good product), BA needs to work with BAA to improve the service, why 50% of security lanes closed at 6pm on a Friday evening? Why was I messed around with the visa check, when I followed the instructions to the letter?

In short, T5 could be world class, but on my two most recent experiences, it is not satisfactory for people who pay a large premium and then do not get the service levels that this should provide.

[dubh12000]

No doubt your thread will be re-united with the "mother" T5 thread in the next few seconds.....but yes, say what you like about the rest of T5, but the security check layout and system is crap. Not blowing the "Zurich" trumpet or anything, but it would have lasted a month beofre being ripped out and re designed by the Swiss. This is also considering the face that on more than one occasion I have seen observers in the T5 security area doing studies (maybe time and motion) on what is actually happening there. I have seen 2 laptops going to ground because of the automatic tray system.....the very least they could do is put a ledge at the pick-up point so you can re-pack your bag....etc.....ad nauseum....

[Jarvy]

Just for intrest how many flights use ZRH compared with T5?
I agree that the security lines are too long, but its the same at Gatwick and most other major UK airports. I have also found most major US airports have long lines. Its not helped by people failing to read the instructions before reaching the front of the line.
As for the distance and time to B, and also C in the future, the design of the terminal was restricted by the 2 runways and also the M25. So it is as it is. I found T4 and T3 worse. If before going in the longe you had looked at the flight boards they clearly state the time to each gate.
I agree the whole thing could be better but all the time people expect to fly cheaply, and terrorism is still a threat, it will not get any better.

[backseatjock]

Hear, hear Strake. Other airlines seem to manage a separate bus for premium pax, so why not penny pinching BA?

[backseatjock]

Jarvy - guess the difference is that some airports learn and make changes. Even Dulles, possibly one of the worst I have experienced, actually now has a decent system in place for both arriving and departing pax.

T5 security has never worked well IMHO and the 'fastrack' system is more often than not anything but fast. Security personnel working there are clear that BA and not BAA decides the set up and how fastrack will operate ie; one queue or two. The lack of space does not help, of course, with security checking area pushed into a long thin layout which is far from ideal. Options for change would appear rather limited.

[L'aviateur]

Jarvy,

I don't buy the excuse of delays caused by 'people not reading'. This is normal, this is what is expected and for the people who don't travel frequently or don't use European/US airports on a regular basis then it's something that should be taken into account. A properly manned airport is equipped to deal with this situation. Find a way to make people listen.

[Final 3 Greens]

Jarvy

With respect Just for intrest how many flights use ZRH compared with T5? this is the wrong question.

As someone who been involved in airport systems planning in the past, the right question is how many flights was the terminal designed for?

In regard to your comment that Its not helped by people failing to read the instructions before reaching the front of the line I not only read the instructions online, but also at the airport.

The instructions were clearly not comprehensive enough and this is not acceptable when you have paid several thousands of euros for the ticket; this is BA's accountability. Had I arrived tight for time (as is often the case), this could have put me in danger of missing the flight.

As for the distance and time to B, and also C in the future, the design of the terminal was restricted by the 2 runways and also the M25. So it is as it is. I found T4 and T3 worse.

So how does this justify providing a poor customer experience? Also, Cairo terminal 2 makes Terminal 5 look really good, but so what?

Please explain how the M25 was a constraint to designing T5? I've go to hear that one - perhaps the juxtaposition of Venus to Mars also played a part?

If before going in the longe you had looked at the flight boards they clearly state the time to each gate.

I did, how do you think I knew to get across? Then again, I take about 100 flights per year on average and am pretty good at using airport terminals, even poorly designed ones.

At other airports, the FIDS manages a 'go to gate' alert, why not for the satellites at T5? More pertinently, why is it not possble to know the gate at -3 hours? Unstable stand planning seems a likey culprit, which is unbelievable in a purpose built new terminal. They can allocate stands at -24 in AMS.

I agree the whole thing could be better but all the time people expect to fly cheaply, and terrorism is still a threat, it will not get any better.

But I don't fly cheaply, do I? The airline is very happy to charge me thousands of euros for a 'premium' experience, but fails to realise that this includes the ground experience.

Also, this is not an old terminal or a terminal built to a tight budget - it cost a fortune.

The sad fact is that there are aspects of it that could be fixed, I agree with Dubh1200's comment about the tolerance level in Switzerland for inefficient things), but rubbish is provided in the UK as if it was good - there is no excuse for having 50% of the security lines closed at 6pm on Friday.

Having said my piece, I shall continue to vote with my feet; this month I shall travel to the middle east and back in business class three times, once with BA and twice with Star*.

I could easily use BA for all these flights and would seriously consider doing so if their end to end offer was competitive - it is for price, but not for service.

Given BA's financial results, it is astonishing the company allows this state of affairs to persist when one can demonstrate the impact on sales.

[Jarvy]

I do think that the number of flights is the right question.
I still think that there are alot of people, not you, who not only fail to read the instructions for security but then complain when asked to comply!!! So using up more staff on enforcement rather than on the actual checks.
The M25 was a reason that the terminal couldn't go further westward, the runways limit the north and south dimensions so it can only go eastward. I understand but I am sure someone could have designed it better.
The airport is designed for the majority who do sit at the back and do want to fly cheaply. They all think they are special as well.
We can all see faults with things thats the easy part but changing things is alot harder.
Whilst not an excuse rember that T5 was designed pre 911 when security was not such a big issue.
Finally as you have all said you can all vote with your pounds, euros and dollars.I will continue to use both T5 and BA, and yes I do have a choice.

[Final 3 Greens]

Jarvy

Sorry, but your facts are wrong.

The M25 was not the constraint, the original design fitted within the space, but the public enquiry decided not to use 'green belt' (non developed) land, that was the constraint.

I know very well when T5 was designed, but I would like to inform you that the internal layout was not finalised at the time of 9/11; how do I know? I was asked, as a consultant, to lead a team of people to look at some 'over the horizon' technology to decide options for check in and some other areas.

Then 9/11 happened and that approach was changed to a regular type of terminal, reflecting the post incident reality.

I am glad it works for you; for me, it is mediocre.

[Espada III]

I rarely if even use any London Airport (living in Manchester), but having transitted via T4 at LHR, the most stupid part of the design of the whole airport is the easiest thing to change - the security screening. Having arrived on a plane from TLV (supposedly the world's safest airport) why do I need to wait in line for an hour to change planes to fly to MAN?

I usually use FRA or ZRH, and their terminals are cleaner, easier to navigate and even with the split terminal design of ZRH, spending four hours there with young children was no trouble.

[apaddyinuk]

Just for those of you who are interested....

BA have emailed all staff who frequently pass through the terminal as passengers to send in their reports to a special email address so that BA can study what is going wrong with security! The airline is aware that this is the biggest problem at T5 right now and is doing its best to sort it out! But me thinks right now it should be a little more concerned about its imminent battle with the unions! LOL!

[Jarvy]

If I'm wrong, which I often am, then I am sorry. It's what I was told by someone who worked on the construction.
As they say over here, opinions are like butt holes, everyone has one.
With that I will take my leave and return to rotorheads where I came from.

[Final 3 Greens]

Jarvy

For the size constraints, see para #1.

Design (http://www.richardrogers.co.uk/render.aspx?siteID=1&navIDs=1,4,24,1531,1533)

Re the internal design, see the last para in the first section of this

AEC Magazine - Heathrow Terminal 5: (http://aecmag.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=253&Itemid=37)

There is no need to say sorry, I was only giving your some information and I hope that it is interesting for you; I know a little more than most about some aspects of T5, which is perhaps partly why it disappoints me, as it could have been world class and the failings are by and large a series of small things.

Also, some of these things probably only effect premium travellers, so I suppose if I was flying economy I might find the place a better experience, if that makes any sense.

One thing I do like about T5 is the selection of restaurants and in particular Giraffe, which feels like a restaurant in a big shopping centre (i.e. better than the usual airport experience.)

[WHBM]

BA have emailed all staff who frequently pass through the terminal as passengers to send in their reports to a special email address so that BA can study what is going wrong with security! The airline is aware that this is the biggest problem at T5 right now and is doing its best to sort it out!
Why on earth do BA need to ask their staff to e-mail in ideas ? Is there no well-paid and knowledgeable manager at Waterworld who can go over to T5 and see IN FIVE MINUTES what is wrong with the security arrangements and devise some instant actions to sort them out, and then actually get them done.

If there is nobody of such a calibre on the staff (and I am well aware that at Waterside "Well Paid" and "Knowledgeable" can rarely be applied to the same person) I will be very happy to come over and do the job for them. I won't even charge a fee !

[strake]

BA have emailed all staff who frequently pass through the terminal as passengers to send in their reports to a special email address

Why not also ask the BA concierges who stand outside the Concorde room entrance by the "Fast Track" security line? I'm sure they already have a perfectly formed opinion as they can clearly see and hear what is going on 2 or 3 metres in front of them whilst waiting to greet passengers.

[Ancient Observer]

BA do need more, direct facts and stories from staff using T5.
One of their problems is that BAA do a lot of measurement, and BAA's measurements tell BAA what a wonderful job they are doing.
They use these3 stats in their meetings with BA, who need data to respond.

For instance, on Security queuing....................(you couldn't make it up").............

BAA do not measure the queues that you and I experience. Rather, they produce a composite queuing time taken over the whole day - right in to the night, when there are no queues. Surprisingly, when they do the averaging, queues that last for hours for you and I come down to 10 minutes.

Help BA to get data to stop this stupidity.

[Final 3 Greens]

BA do need more, direct facts and stories from staff using T5.

BA used to have some seriously bright people in Operational Research (I worked alongside some for 6 months), who were quite capable of auditing performance in any part of an operation (including BAA's performance) and cutting through the BS, with quantitative analysis.

So what happened to OR?

[WHBM]

So what happened to OR?
A triumph of the (small p) politics playing know-nothings over the competent know-everythings.

[Skipness One Echo]

At other airports, the FIDS manages a 'go to gate' alert, why not for the satellites at T5? More pertinently, why is it not possble to know the gate at -3 hours? Unstable stand planning seems a likey culprit, which is unbelievable in a purpose built new terminal. They can allocate stands at -24 in AMS.

I think the reality here is that at AMS I have never seen a full terminal with no free stands. There are always free stands when busy. Due to our British lack of foresight, I know that Terminal 3 at LHR is occasionally actually full, ie no more room. Inbound aircraft are advised on approach by handling that "no stand allocated as yet" due to the fact that they may be waiting on a flight to clear from the gate they are supposed to be on but it's going to be either a gate change or a ground hold. LHR has less space for the flights it has and so stand planning is that much more dynamic.
Bit like hot bedding in the NHS, they had enough bother getting permission to build T5 the size it is and it was known even then it wasn't big enough. I have seen T5 airbridge stands maxed out and even pressure on remote parking. That's why it struggles the way it does.
F3G in many ways, modern Britain is regressing alas.

[ExXB]

The last few times I've been through T5 I've been bused without exception, both long and shorthaul. However the gates at the terminal were NOT all occupied. 65-70% at most. Another reason why (Oh, never mind)

[Momo]

I have been going there about monthly since it opened. Other than the entertainment of flying out the day it opened, I have always found T5 quite good. The club europe/world lounges are among the very best. My first transit to long haul (to Las Vegas) in T5 will be three weeks from now. (Long haul C fares on BA generally 20-30% higher than LH, LX, AF, KL, so don't use BA normally.)

Lufthansa and Swiss take you to the plane by Porsche Cayenne or Mercedes S-class if you are travelling in first class via a main hub. If you arrive in F, they also take you to the connecting short haul the same way. No special treatement in C.

[Capetonian]

This may be taking it a little too far but :

And the worst airport in the world is ...

London's Heathrow has again been named the worst airport in the world.

London's Heathrow has again been named the worst airport in the world. Photo: Getty Images

Heathrow airport has again been voted the worst airport in the world, according to a global poll of airline passengers.

The survey of members of Priority Pass, the world's leading independent airport lounge programme, included responses from 160 countries. The respondents to the annual survey have taken, on average, 17 flights in the past year.

It is a repeat of last year's result when Heathrow was still recovering from the ill-fated opening of Terminal 5, which saw passengers suffer lengthy flight delays and large numbers of lost bags.

Heathrow Airport, London named world's worst | Changi Airport, Singapore favourite (http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-news/and-the-worst-airport-in-the-world-is--20091022-hanq.html)

Worst airports

1. London Heathrow

2. Paris CDG

3. Los Angeles - LAX Intl

4. Frankfurt International

[Final 3 Greens]

I don't agree with the survey results, interestingly enough I have a PP card and no one asked me :confused:

However, I would vote pretty LHR high on the list of the most unpleasant airports to use.

[Final 3 Greens]

Momo

The club europe/world lounges are among the very best.

I second that.

My T5 experience is not at all like yours, one wonders how such a variation can happen?

I've been in a Cayenne at ZRH, very nice, but to be honest the shuttle to midfield works well when you are in J and premium pax do get priority gate boarding.

[dubh12000]

An odd list of airports. Frankfurt? I would have both Moscow efforts and Dublin in ahead of LHR to be honest.

The one thing about the T5 lounges I notice is that I need to go to the "silver" lounge for a bowl of porridge in the morning.....porridge is obviously deemed beneath the gold card SLF...:}

[bealine]

..........porridge is obviously deemed beneath the gold card SLF..

Kedgeree, old chap, is just the ticket! The mainstay of the Army Officer!

Seriously though, I wonder why "we dinna have a wee drop of parritch"? (- to break into the vernacular.) We have many Scottish Golds who I'm sure would wish to start the day with a bowlful of the glutinous food of the glens! Next time I am working in the area, I will ask the Eurest staff why it isn't available in the "First" lounge.

(It probably is available in the "Concorde Room" as most items are available for individual order.)

[Shack37]

Worst airports

1. London Heathrow

2. Paris CDG

3. Los Angeles - LAX Intl

4. Frankfurt International

For about two years now I have used CDG frequently between Bilbao and Aberdeen without the slightest problem. Admittedly this is only shorthaul but it does include going through Passport Control and a change of terminal.
For Passport Control there is an excellent fast lane for pax with short connections. I have never had to wait more than 5 minutes for an inter terminal bus and there is usually one waiting outside the arrival terminal.
Not one of my flights has been delayed nor have I had one lost luggage incident.

Guess I must be lucky eh?

[Jarvy]

But look at the positive Heathrow finished above Zurich in the best airports. Never trust these surveys myself. F3G, now you've handed back your card guess I wouldn't be meeting you in T5.

[Final 3 Greens]

Never trust these surveys myself. F3G, now you've handed back your card guess I wouldn't be meeting you in T5.

Unlikely.

I don't trust these surveys, either.

LHR is nowhere near the 'world's worst airport' (whatever that means), I can think of a lot in the second and third worlds that would have the respondents screaming for mercy by comparison. Also, it is difficult to compare the whole airport, terminals vary so much.

For example, any terminal at LHR is much, much better than terminal 2 at CAI, whereas terminal 3 at CAI is brand new and comparable with T5.

But LHR is unpleasant to use, by which I mean scruffy in some areas (although some well needed refurbishment is underway), sprawling, ill signed in some areas, slow, security is a hassle, expensive (even the hotel transfer bus costs GBP4 each way), so on that basis I can see why people do not like it.

Anyway, it is good that Zurich is not the top of the list, let it keep a low profile and its numbers as they currently are :ok:

[k3lvc]

Well having moved 'oop north' recently and suffered the last few weeks of schedule changes to GVA from LBA/LPL/MAN/EMA I decided to give BA a shot on MAN-LHR-GVA. I felt a 1h25m transfer time optimistic from my only other experience (a couple of days after opening) but tonight it was simplicity in itself. Off at the domestic end of T5, straight through transfer gate and into the shopping mall before we should have even landed. Even my bag made it to GVA. Let's hope the return is as painless (though I suspect not)

[Final 3 Greens]

k3lvc

What I don't understand is how you and some other posters have what is clearly a great experience, whereas some others and me have a nightmare.

Why can't a brand new terminal give a consistent experience?

By way of comparison, I recently used T3 for the first time in a couple of years and despite it being heavingly full on a Sunday, it was a far better experience than my encounters at T5, with proper fastrack security (being policed effectively.)

Additionally, I have used T1 a couple of times recently, with Swiss and that was very good, although not so busy, so I will reserve further comment until I try it at a peak period.

What I don't get is how the T3 airlines can get a proper fastrack system and efficient security, when BA (the only user of T5) seems to lack the influence to achieve the same, a point that BA supporters and employees also make on here.

It just does not add up.

[k3lvc]

To be fair last night was a domestic arrival to short haul departure - maybe I ought to reserve judgement until I've done it the other way round tomorrow when presumably I'll have to clear immigration before transferring. Are there IRIS machines in this area anyone ?

[Malone]

F3G,
I too am somewhat at a loss as to the reason why BA do not start telling BAA to improve their service. Presumably they could just withold payment until it is sorted out! It would appear that they are running scared of the BAA for some reason, the same applies at Gatwick.
Does anybody have any further ideas on possible reasons, sensible ones please, not the usual "WW doesn't care as he is going to be CEO of Ryanair etc". This pandering to the BAA has been going on since before WW was even a "twinkle" in the corporate eye!
Time for lunch now.
:ok:

[Haven't a clue]

I don't know about T3 fast track, but T5's state of the art, designed by experts system should, it seems to me, should work like this:

Move from queue
Stand at one of three positions
Place your bag in the tray in front of you
Place your coat, belt etc in a second tray
Pass through the scanner
Retrieve bag, coat etc from passing tray.

However fast track is for premium pax, who usually have two bags, a laptop requiring separate screening, as well as coat, belt etc. So each pax needs four trays, which presumably was never contemplated by the consultants. Chaos ensues with pax waiting for empty trays to appear thus taking much longer to complete the process. There is also a scramble to recover possessions before the trays wizz out of sight...

It doesn't help that the trays are too small for the accepted sized bag (let alone some of the monsters some people carry). The trays on a similar system at MAN T3 are much bigger (but seem to take a long time to go through the scanner, so maybe size matters?).

On my last trip through T5 the process was reduced to one pax loading trays at a time instead of the three anticipated by the designers.

Delay explained?

[Jarvy]

Well said haven't a clue. Most people seem to carry alot more hand luggage these days, maybe to much.I know the arguement that the hold luggage can get lost or that they might have to wait at the other end but do you really need to carry so much ?
F3G it must be you as T5 is much better than T3.
The vast majority of people pass through T5 with no problems.

[PAXboy]

Not quite without problems ... Externally, have you seen the maze of roads? have you seen the confusing signs? Have you had to drive round the loop to make sure that you have seen all the signs and that you know which one is best for you?

Landside, have you seen the tiny display screen? I have ranted about these before so will be brief. Many airports now use flat screen displays slung vertically. They are cheap and can be drive by a standard PC. But the displayed characters are so small - you have to stand less than 3m away to read them. This causes bunching around them and you cannot sit (even if there were seats!) 15m away out of the rush and midning your own business waiting for the flight to be signalled.

[radeng]

What I find annoying is the parsimony on having so few moving walkways on
the arrivals level. It is a bl***y long way to walk when you walk with a stick, and aren't bad enough to need a wheelchair!

Plus the 'through security, tramp past the bl***dy shops that I never use and back the same way at lower level' just to get to the lounges.

I still maintain BAA stands for 'Bl**dy Awful Airports'.

[Final 3 Greens]

Jarvy

Please will you supply an authoritative reference for your assertion.

Anecdotally, I hear lots of people who have a great experience and lots who don't.

As you challenge me on T3/T5, let me tell you the facts of my two recent visits to both.

T5 - Friday 1800, T3 - Sunday 0930 - both peak time and both very busy

T5 - security transit time - 35 mins, T3 - 10 mins

T1 - no 'go to gate' announcement on FIDS, T3 - 'go to gate' announcement on FIDS.

Those are facts, not opinions.

Fact, on those two trips, at peak times, T3 gave me a better experience than T5.

[dubh12000]

I noticed this morning, as you come down the escalator to the lower level, coming from the main security check, you are confronted by a large advert for Star Alliance....! Fair enough, free market advertising etc, but what the f*ck are BAA playing at? In the middle of the "product" they are presenting jointly with BA to the customer, and then advertising the competition!?! If I was BA I would be hopping mad. Personally it reflects badly on both of them.

[Jarvy]

F3G, just my opinion from the times I have used both.

[WHBM]

Fair enough, free market advertising etc, but what the f*ck are BAA playing at? .
Probably the same as throwing the Concorde off Concorde Roundabout because Emirates offered a bit more money. They doubtless charged Star a premium amount for it.

BAA, through their owners Ferrovial, are now DESPERATE for money, any money, to fund the ridiculously high amount they borrowed to buy BAA a couple of years ago. A comparable exercise has hit the rail access to the airport. When the Underground is closed for weekend works, all too frequently it seems, the Heathrow Express that BAA own allowed OysterCard/TravelCard holders to use the HEx into London. Transport for London paid a fixed fee per day to BAA for this. Well BAA jacked the fee up by 200%, TfL refused to pay it, and now when there is no Piccadilly Line at weekends everyone will have to pay the full fare on the Paddington trains. Haha, say BAA.

[Skipness One Echo]

That'll be the government's joined up transport policy in action again....

Right hand meet left hand and say "Hi there"

[GwynM]

I think you'll recall that it wasn't the present government that privatised it, so taking it away from being a service to the population and turning it into a money making machine that believes shops are more important than customers.

[Rusland 17]

Nor is the government responsible for the shambles that is the programme of weekend engineering closures that plagues the Underground network. The Conservative mayor is ultimately responsible for the city's transport.

[PAXboy]

THREAD DRIFT
Rusland 17The Conservative mayor is ultimately responsible for the city's transport.Which makes sense, as it was a Conservative govt that held back investment in the Tube system - then tried to privatise. The privatised the maintenance - which then collapsed and to be rescued for the public good.

Might have been easier to have invested for the public good 20 years ago and not hand off considerable amounts of cash to private individuals ...

[WHBM]

I don't hold any particular support for either political party, but must point out the following :

1. BAA was privatised to its own shareholders in 1986 and was not saddled with huge amounts of borrowed acquisition debt. It was the current government not any previous one, which then allowed Ferrovial to buy it (in 2006), when they had the chance to prevent it through the Competition Commission. All realists in the financial world could see that the sale, at 10 times its initial capitalisation, would lead to all sorts of financial issues for the UK's principal gateways.

2. Maintenance of the London Underground was not privatised by any previous government but by the current one in 2002, into two separate Public Private Partnership companies, one of which has now failed and the other is facing significant difficulties. The PPP plan was pushed by the Treasury against advice from all sides, a fact which is now glossed over.

[PAXboy]

WHBM Thanks for the correct details on the Tube maintenance, I guess I had read too many foul ups by both the two parties that have been kicking the ball back and forth to each other for too long, thanks to a cosy electoral system. But I digress further ...

[Gassy]

DUB..........noticed a few months back a great big board advertising Virgin Atlantic in one of the T5 satilitte areas. Didnt make sense to me either.

[Malone]

Gassy,
I suppose it is up to the marketing departments to decide what they want to spend their money on. The BAA (I am not a fan by the way) will take the money from whoever they want. If BA wanted their name plastered over the billboards, they would have to pay too. It happened at Gatwick North some years ago when you couldn't move for ads for EasyJet. That didn't seem to last long.

[k3lvc]

Back to the thread

F3G will be pleased to know that after last nights escapade I can safely say I've seen both ends of the spectrum. Arrived at gate A20 at 15.55 ready to transfer to A3 for 17.00. First time I've done the transfer from International to Domestic but what a ******* farce staffed by jumped up *****.

Purple signage is clear and straightforward but useless if staff point you in a different direction. First the immigration photo then 6ft later a boarding pass check followed by barked instructions from some lowlife re liquids before heading up on the escalator to be unceremoniously dumped at the arse end of the standard security queue which then took 25mins whilst the staff tried to decide where to move the barriers until they realised that they'd created 2 queues meeting each other in opposite directions :D

So 2 questions

a) why the need for a search when transferring INT-DOM but not DOM-INT

b) How can the service be so inconsistent

For me I'll now change my flights to BA for MAN-LHR-GVA but I'll return on EZY from GVA-MAN.

Another satisfied customer

[PAXboy]

The situation appears to be, k3lvc, that the next transit will be different again. Certainly, if you have difficulty transiting within the SAME satellite? If you have EZY direct from MAN, I'd skip the transit.

I'm lucky that I live near LHR so I don't have to use it for transit (once ten years ago whilst based in Germany and left a lot of time for a T1~3).

[Skipness One Echo]

a) why the need for a search when transferring INT-DOM but not DOM-INT

Arse covering. The politicians can't trust foreign airports to clear passengers to DFT standards so they put them through the system again. Having said that, don't they do exactly the same at AMS as they check you at the gate?

Though without the massive queue and the little Hitlers.

[Final 3 Greens]

k3lvc

F3G will be pleased to know that after last nights escapade I can safely say I've seen both ends of the spectrum.

Not pleased at all, sorry you had to experience it :ugh:

[k3lvc]

I meant 'pleased' as in it's not just you being victimised :ok:

[GwynM]

A couple of total flukes this week.

Weds 18th about 15.50 - only 1 person ahead of me at security in fast track - even the normal queues only had 3 or 4 people in them.

Thursday 19th about 18.55, 6 minutes from seatbelt sign going off to drop off area (from seat 5F, so that added a minute) where taxi was waiting.

[Rusland 17]

A couple of total flukes this week...Why is it always a "fluke" when things go smoothly at T5 and "typical" when they do not?

[Donkey497]

Why is it always a "fluke" when things go smoothly at T5 and "typical" when they do not?

I'm sorry but that's the standard of all public facing and public serving businesses within the UK that prevails.

This may be a fairly controversial view point, but the sooner we become a proper third world country where India & China outsource to us, the better as we will have to provide proper service to our customers, or we simply won't eat. It's drastic & draconian, but that's probably the only thing that will raise standards now in the parlous state we find ourselves in.:sad:

[PAXboy]

Donkey497 but that's probably the only thing that will raise standards now in the parlous state we find ourselves in.Congratulations. I think that is exactly the solution and have thought so for about 15 years. The normal cycle of life and human endeavour means that, once something has grown to maturity, it must wither and die.The next generation will then spring forth, be it humans or plants that are nurtured by the rotting vegetation of the previous generation.

Since the UK is now a more than mature organism, it must continue on around the cycle - to complete failure - before it can rise again. It is the same as I have said about mature commercial organisations, such as the legacy carriers, but taken to the natural conclusion of the whole country. For most of my adult life, politicians have been pretending 'we can make Britain great again'. No we can't. Not until it has reached the lowest point in the cycle like any reciprocating engine! If the politiicans want to help Britain to be great again, they should hasten the downfall to the lowest point. Fortunately, they are doing just that.:}

[GwynM]

A typical journey is one where there are delays going through security - on average it probably takes 10 minutes, but that includes the 1 minute occasions as well as the 30 minute trials. It also seems fairly typical (about 50% of the time) that BA1313 is given a remote stand instead of a jetty so we have to get a bus to the terminal.

Therefore my typical journey through T5 is medium length and frustration, and a fluke is when it goes like clockwork or takes forever. Anything outside a few standard deviations is worthy of note, whether good or bad.

[k3lvc]

Why is it always a "fluke" when things go smoothly at T5 and "typical" when they do not?

Because it's so ******* inconsistent - it's not difficult to know how many pax are going to arrive/depart/transit over a given period yet staffing levels do not seem to reflect this.

When it's good it sets an expectation for the future - when it's bad it undoes all the previous 'good' work

[Married a Canadian]

a) why the need for a search when transferring INT-DOM but not DOM-INT

Arse covering. The politicians can't trust foreign airports to clear passengers to DFT standards so they put them through the system again. Having said that, don't they do exactly the same at AMS as they check you at the gate?

Though without the massive queue and the little Hitlers.

I brought this up on a similar thread earlier in the year having experienced the same inconsistency at T5.
The stupidest thing I found on this point was that people were having to hand over the bottles of water and wine to security that BA had handed out on the plane. So what was safe for BA to give out..then became a security risk again having landed on UK soil.

[fincastle84]

Reply to Married a Canadian.

How are the security people supposed to know the origin of your bottles of water? To my knowledge BA don't have their own labels.
One just has to accept that security staff in ALL airports are jobsworths & the only way to handle it is to go with the flow. You're going to be stuck on your backside for hours anyway so what's the rush. Stay cool, life becomes a lot easier. :ok:

[Married a Canadian]

How are the security people supposed to know the origin of your bottles of water?

Common sense. About 50 small bottles of water and wine together on the security table...all with the same labelling..and with all passengers having just come from a BA plane (with no chance of having been anywhere in between AND T5 being BA's primary terminal) seems to be a fair clue.

I would love to agree with you on the "stay cool" comment. Let's even be generous and pretend that most people do try to stay cool and go with the flow (even though I know that passengers can be a*****!.
There does however seem to be a generic problem in the UK at present though where no common sense or logicis applied by either top level, middle level or lower level staff at airports...and as all these threads show...passengers are getting fed up with it. Are we really all as stupid as we are made out to be?...or just maybe...do some people have a point about air travel through the UK and Heathrow T5 in particular.

[hotmetal]

A colleague of mine was always talking about staying cool. Should have seen him at Edinburgh when they confiscated a months supply of daily disposable lenses. Wasn't cool then. [Flight crew in staff channel btw]

[Dual ground]

On what premise did they confiscate contact lenses?

It is a bit of a sweeping statement but, in my experience at least, British airport security is the worst organised, most shambolic and most "jobsworth" I have encountered anywhere in Europe.

[fincastle84]

Please don't get me wrong. I'm not defending the blithering idiots, I'm just suggesting the easiest way to overcome receiving even more hassle. I'm speaking from bitter experience of getting on the wrong side of a US immigration guy at MIA a couple of years ago & finding myself being 'detained' for a couple of hours in order to 'teach me a lesson'. T-5 is sheer paradise compared to any zone at MIA.

[hotmetal]

On what premise did they confiscate contact lenses?

Liquid not in a little bag. Typical jobsworth nonsense. I could go on for hours. I try and avoid slipping in the UK because of it.:)

[Final 3 Greens]

Sit down and take a deep breath.

I used T5 today and sailed through in about 2 minutes.

All the security lanes were open (3.30pm, Tuesday) and it was great.

Just confuses me even more that the last time I used it (6pm, Friday), that only half the lanes were open.

Seems to me that this was in the inverse proportion to commonsense.

[dubh12000]

Looks like they know all about you now....:}

[Munnyspinner]

F3G

So which T5 were you flying through last Tuesday?

Don't get me started about the inadequacies of this temple to inefficiency but, due to a switch in meeting venues I too found myself at T5 last Tuesday, around 3.30.

Yes, the check in area was deserted. But, that is where the comfort zone stopped. Security was SLOW. Luckily I was in front of 50 Japanese tourists. The concourse was pretty busy but the lounge was OK.

However, you might have noticed a string of delays and cancellations due to the weather?

Was this two minutes BA time? If so, then that would explain whay the MAN flight was delayed by two minutes for an hour.

[Final 3 Greens]

Hi Munnyspinner

I used security south, it was virtually empty and I walked straight through to a waiting security line with no one else using it.

Mind you, it didn't stop the goon trying to find a problem, as I used 4 trays instead of three and he insisted that I should combine two trays.

When I politely challenged him as to why ("is there any particular reason you need me to do that?"), as there was no-one else using the line, he couldn't give a rational answer and just repeated that I must do it.

Pathetic.

Sometimes we get comments on here from security people asking why pax are rude to them.

Although I wasn't rude to this guy, this is the type of mindless stupidity that winds up the paying customer.

[Haven't a clue]

I used Fast Track at T5 at around 3.45 last Tue as well, and whizzed through in a couple of minutes. Only delay was me removing laptop/liquids, and replacing them. Thinks: why no tables to do this like LCY? That would help to.

F3G - I had 2 bags plus laptop/coat/liquids, and although I attempted to use 4 trays, the chap combined all my stuff into 2. Maybe they read what we wrote I while back and acted on it??

[Skipness One Echo]

I think that the new funky trays at T5 are a bit too clever by half. I don't trust it to stay in place without whizzing away with the last thing in it, usually a neat passport / boarding pass combo. Rationally I know why it won't but this system, whilst a whizz-bang idea on a powerpoint led meeting somewhere, comes unstuck when the human factor comes into play.
A good system knows how people will react to it....T5's often doesn't.

Munnyspinner, been there done that, then I kicked myself for remembering there are two ways into the lounge and the other entrance was much quicker. I too have had days when the holes in the Swiss cheese line up and I want to beat the architect to a pulp with his own arm until he starts using the two shell like things on the side of his head....

[WHBM]

I want to beat the architect to a pulp with his own arm until he starts using the two shell like things on the side of his head....

Well, Lord Rogers can be found here .....

Richard Rogers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Rogers)

The usual prominent architect's story. "Nice awards, shame about the actual buildings".

[L337]

I am led to understand... WW has had meetings with the BAA and has managed to push through changes to the South Security Area.

Hopefully this will result in improvements.

[Capetonian]

Not sure if this is quite the right place to ask this but it's T5 related so here goes. A friend of mine ( let's call him John...) questioned an instruction from a security 'official' (I'm being polite) at T5. I know him pretty well and I doubt if he would have been obnoxious, rude, or insulting, he is a polite, educated and mild mannered middle aged gent.

The official made him hand over his (UK) passport and disappeared with it. 5 minutes later a 'supervisor' came out with the passport and refused to hand it back until 'John' had received a dressing down for being 'abusive' and apologised to the official.

I wasn't there ..... but even if John had been abusive, and I am sure he wasn't, is this treatment justifed and legal? Above all, I thought only a government employee such as an immigration/customs/police official could take away a passport - which is actually the property of HM Government.

Is this yet another example of bullying antagonistic behaviour by petty officials given too much power and abusing it?

[Rusland 17]

Is this yet another example of bullying antagonistic behaviour by petty officials given too much power and abusing it?Without full details of the situation in which "John" found himself, how he behaved and who the "official" was, no-one can say.

[FairlieFlyer]

C'mon Rusland, get with the flow, youre starting to sounds like a T5 security official :ugh:

[Capetonian]

In case my original posting was unclear (Rusland17) it was a security official, one of the 'shoes off' lot that watch while you put your things onto the conveyor belt.

And the basic question is: 'does someone who is not a government official (e.g. Border, HMRC, Police etc) have the right to do this?'

[strake]

I think, irritating though it is, while you are in their sandpit, they can do what they want so long as it does not involve some form of assualt, imprisonment or human rights infringement regarding race, sex, disabilty etc.
Asking to see documents, even by a shoe checker, is probably acceptable and being rude is now inevitable.
If we have to fly, I guess we have to try to grit our teeth and rise above it all.

[Capetonian]

I don't agree. A passport is the property of the issuing government and I question whether a contracted security person has the right to CONFISCATE it, particularly as in this case it was done out of pure spite and abuse of power. Had the document been requested purely as a form if ID check, that would have been perfectly acceptable.

Anyway I have taken this up with the IPS. I've already received a preliminary response which indicates that they have some concerns about this, and they are going to come back to me now that I've given them further details. Obviously this is confidential but I will post the gist of their reply once finalised.

[hotmetal]

It is certainly not true that 'in their sandpit they can do what they want. They have to comply with English law like anyone else. They can't steal [which they sometimes call confiscating] stuff and they can't use threatening behaviour. I hope you get the outcome you deserve. Sorry for being dense but what it the IPS?

[Capetonian]

I also couldn't have told you what it stands for .... I would have called it the Passport agency, but it's this IPS - Homepage (http://www.ips.gov.uk/cps/rde/xchg/ips_live/hs.xsl/index.htm)

The Identity and Passport Service is responsible for issuing UK passports and identity cards and for the registration of births, marriages and deaths in England and Wales. It is an executive agency of the Home Office.

[Albert Salmon]

Consider yourselves lucky that you can enjoy the privilege of feeder flights into LHR.

Over here in Jersey it's LGW or nothing. The tootle around the M25 adds absolutely nothing to the enjoyment, with the bus being frequently delayed in heavy traffic.