Aircrew Met Misers!

[The_Met_Man]

Hello everyone

Although I am fairly new to met especially the military side of it, I am finding it hard to satisfy the never ending met demands from aircrew.

I know the forecasts may sometimes be slightly innaccurate, but its not an exact science. What brought me onto this forum was the other days request of "can you squeeze a phase 4 for us?!".

Will demanding aircrew please understand that I am not a weather controller, merely a forecaster and am unable to produce phase 5 on demand. Much to the horror of some individuals.

<img src="wink.gif" border="0">

[TURNBULL]

Ah, at long last a Met Man (appears) to raise his head abve the parapet! Great! Perhaps we can debate the whole rationale for having forcasters on military bases at all.

On the whole when the weather is fine they do very little but when the chips are down and we aircrew need to make a timely decision, they bleet that it is not an 'exact science'. In that case, why spend thousands to have a handful of local forecasters and a purpose built met office?

The introduction of IT systems, literacy amongst aircrew and common sense have easily replaced the seaweed.

Centralise the military met system and save thousands with no effect on operational capabilty!

DISCUSS

[fone_effect]

Whilst on the phone to Met Man I asked, "Any bad Wx, would like to IF in a helicopter ?" Met man says, "No all is fine and dandy." Then a large clap of thunder and the beginnings of a nasty CB. Thanks for $*** all. With all the tech stuff in the world you get it wrong almost on a daily basis. I suggest you look out of the window and you may get it right sometimes. I say sack them all and spend the money on moss, a bit smarter and far better for you.

[BEagle]

All very well for you lot who rarely fly very far away from homeplate to moan about the standard of UK forecasters - but those of us who need world-wide briefs are glad to have them! BUT:

1. You don't need to read out all the goddam TAFs which you've printed off for us.

2. Is it standard to err on the high side when talking about cross winds?

3. There's nothing better than an upwind actual!

4. Atlantic weather systems slow down when they hit the UK, you know!

5. Anyone who tries to predict the future has got to be a little weird.......

[Tigs]

Met Man

Flying is very often a demanding business, and thats why you perceive that we are being demanding. The met can have huge implications on our choice of routing etc, and with any backup plans we may need if it all goes horribly wrong. Often when decisions are to be made there is no time to sit and ponder. We need to know that the info we get is as accurate as posible, because that is what we will base our decisions on.

Fone Effect/Turnbull. .I'm sure the Met men keep doing the things they do whether its 8/8 blue or all fogged in. Don't you think that as aircrew we seldom fly along and say "The Met Mans right again", we just comment when they have go it wrong - Bit unfair really! It seems to have taken a long time to get a met man to show up on the forum, if we are unduly harsh, we won't see any again. Not all professions have our ability to handle huge amounts of straight talking and banter.

Edited for Poss Pir Spelink

[ 12 February 2002: Message edited by: Tigs ]</p>

[RoboAlbert]

Either you boys are taking the p**s or your both showing very worrying tendencies. I don’t suppose either of you would relish the thought of TMM telling you how to fly aeroplanes so why on earth should aircrew tell him how to forecast weather – it might not be an exact science but he’s got the benefit of a lot more training and expertise in the Met area than the average aircrew mate. If these losers want a Phase 4 why don’t they get of there posteriors and get the Phase chart changed rather than hassling some bloke who’s trying to do his job to the best of his ability.

Honestly it makes my blood boil…... . . . <img src="mad.gif" border="0">

[Admin Guru]

What a surprise to see the aircrew whinging - only this time it's about the weather forecasters!! Honestly! If it's not Friday afternoon and you have admin to do (probably returned 1771s) then it's 'an innacurate forecast precluding flying.'

Met Man, I fully sympathise with your position. I know if I go flying I like an accurate weather forecast. I very much doubt you said "all is fine and dandy." (see above post) . .Surely asking the Met Man to change the flying phase is like asking me to falsify a claim!

<img src="mad.gif" border="0"> <img src="mad.gif" border="0"> <img src="mad.gif" border="0">

[peterward]

For those defending the realm, appreciate the standard we have back home. It's a lot worse to the north west!!! <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

[peterward]

Met Man, you obviously haven't heard of phase Heames. Phase 4 is for p@*fs anyway.....

[Alf Aworna]

Personally I think the UK met men/women are bloody good especially when they've been stationed somewhere for a while and know all the local idiosynracies. If you ask a few pertinent questions and listen to them they tend to tell you their gut feeling rather than what they think you want to hear. Oh yes and they can get it wrong- like we never do...

TMM- honesty is the best policy, tell us why you think the weather is going to be the way it is, not try and fit it into somebodys arbitary limits so they can get their stats in. Unfortunately people don't tend to thank you when you were right either-sorry.

AG- you linger on like on a bad smell, annoying and rather boring. You have no place here, please leave you ignorant twerp.

[Hertz Van Rental]

TMM. .By asking if you can "squeeze a phase 4" the QFIs (I assume) are recognising the subjective nature of your profession - some forecasters will err on the cautious side, some on the permissive. The training system is being run at max capacity with little flex for weather and it is only natural for QFIs to press-to-test once in a while. Personally I think you do an excellent job, though many may not realise how good until they experience the rest-of-the-world.

Admin Guru - **** off you red-nosed clown.

[Dave Ishall]

I was there when the duty forecaster at Cranwell staked his reputation on the next morning being a Phase 0. How we laughed (not) as a crystal clear blue sky greeted our hangovers the next day! At least the Staish drank on the met too.

Still wouldn't do without the likes of TMM though - at least they have a go at predicting the future which is more than anyone else in the RAF seems to be able to do. Admin Guru does have a point (unfortunately) in that some of us are bleating yet again at others who are just trying to do their job, although I also wish he would just s** off back to his desk and stop clogging up this forum......

[Descend to What Height?!?]

TURNBULL. .FYI there are quite a few of us Met Men on PPRUNE, and have been for a long time. . .Be carefull for what you wish, it may come true! We are under huge pressure from the bean counters to cut costs, while trying to maintain services to you. Many reviews are taking place, with options such as single manning of sites, and withdrawing Met Men from operational stations all together. Briefings by remote teleconf from Big House in Bracknell, or a remote Regional centre. Yes IT is getting better, but when conditions are marginal, do you really want to talk to a forcaster 200 miles away with NO local knowledge, apart from some notes in a hand out? Is that what your really want???

We try our best, oftern under considerable pressure, time and money!

Yes we do get it wrong occasionaly, but as said above, when we get it right, it is quickley forgotten. I too have been the victim of the old fog lifting in an hour storey, when sitting waiting for engine start in the Herc with the long nose I was crew on for 10 years. So I see it from both ends, Met Man and aircrew. On ballance, the guys and girls on the sharp end do an excellent job. We even deply in theatre for you, world wide at very short notice.

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[Jump jump John]

In all honesty, i think we do appreciate the effort that the met guys and gals put in on our behalf, and at least where i 'work' they are right more than they are wrong.

HOWEVER, this doesn't mean that we aren't entitled to whine when things don't go exactly our way - apparently its the only thing aircrew have to do inbetween reading the Torygraph and taking afternoon tea!

Everyone whinges, and its very rare that you will get a call thanking you for getting your job right, while you can gaurntee (?) that you WILL get one if you get your job wrong. But we do appreciate you really.. .Honest.

P.S. If you don't know, please SAY you don't know before you give us a guess! :) <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">

P.P.S. Admin Gimp - who invited you anyway? I doubt cloud ever stopped you getting your oh-so-important forms filled out. NOW **** OFF.

(Edited to provide abuse)

[ 13 February 2002: Message edited by: Jump jump John ]</p>

[TURNBULL]

Descend to What Height?!?

Don't get me wrong, I have frequently benefitted from the sage advice of the local met man. However, I feel a similar service could be provided by a more centralised service - the days of local knowledge seem to have gone as you guys seem to do shorter tours in one place.

I was interested if anyone else felt the same - hence the 'discuss'.

[RubiC Cube]

Things have definitely got better over the years. They used to get it wrong 50% of the time, now they get it right 50% of the time. Honestly, we couldn't do without them. Keep up the good work chaps (and chapesses).

[callsign Metman]

As a metman I've worked at several bases in the UK and abroad and have always enjoyed the 'challenge' of forecasting for the military. It really is a good job in a good evironment in my opinion. Sometimes though, we make our mistakes, and when I say we I don't mean just the metmen/women (or metpeople!). Aircrew/Groundcrew howlers anyone?? Admittedly our mistakes usually tend to be more obvious to the eye. 1987 storm etc.... .The one thing that can really help your friendly metman/woman though is information. Like you we can only work with what we're given so the next time you fly think about passing some met back to the office at your airfield. Doesn't need to be much - cloud heights, layers, temps etc.. it all helps us to help you!!

CM

[fobotcso]

Met People? Love 'em. Try operating (that is to say, doing an operational task) without 'em and see how far you get.

Even recreational week-end flying can be dodgy without some help. Ever sent a low-time student on a two-hour cross-country without being fairly sure what the surface wind was going to be like on their return? Not good for the nerves!

Oh, and I would be very reluctant to entrust anybody in the admin office with responsibility for my affairs if (s)he couldn't spell "inaccurate" accurately. [Edited for accuracy!]

[ 13 February 2002: Message edited by: fobotcso ]</p>

[Descend to What Height?!?]

TURBULL. .No offence taken or meant. Appologies.

Issues such as you speak do figure highly in our minds. We would love to give you 100% acurate guesstemates all the time, from fully manned offices on site, with people who do have good local knowledge.. .However, I think those days are gone (look to the civil world as a possible pointer where ATC have/are taking over the observers role for METARS, and TAFS are produced almost automatically from the computer in Bracknell) The powers that be in the Office are looking for further treasury led cuts, and forecasters and observers are seen as a soft option that can be replaced by automatic observation systems, and centralised services.. .So the situation that you speak of may just be around the corner, but it will be cost/price led, not lead by what the customer (aircrew) at the front line wants! <img src="mad.gif" border="0"> <img src="mad.gif" border="0"> <img src="mad.gif" border="0">

[Ralf Wiggum]

My god, who else can we have a go at for making a mistake. We've had the Plods, Blunties, Ground Crew, Met boys etc. Shocking that everyone appears to be out of step with such perfect aviators. That's it! Everyone is out of step and Aircrew are the only ones in step. Eureka. <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

[Admin Guru]

JJ John. .So I'm obviously taking banter from a filthy stuuuudent now am I? Ok here goes - thought your Tutors could only fly 'VMC' anyway so I doubt cloud messes up your days much either! Enjoy learning to stall and keep writing those basket weaving essays, the real RAF might let you in one day! Go back to your student dinner of beans and lentil soup.

Sorry to offend the rest of you but are aircrew only allowed to comment on The Met Man? I think not - weather affects all of us. I refer you to TAC Comms, TAC Supply, TAC ATC etc etc. It's not just a case of I can't fly today, it's too cloudy.

. . <img src="mad.gif" border="0">

[blind pue]

I would like to know from all those complaining about TMM what they would do if they didnt have him,

He may get it wrong, but did you ask the right questions? and do you pass on any info.

While based in Wattisham, TMM would ask an aircraft flying to the East what the weather was doing and base his updates on pilot reports. this was also the case in Dishforth for operating over the moors. . .This may seem amateur but the reports from the continent are not very reliable, and why not make use of all your assets.

Now flying a Blimp I explain to TMM my limitations and he briefs me accordingly, I can then plan my schdule.. .I have only lost 2 days flying due to a bad report, in my book that is a pretty good sucess rate.

I don't know any pilot that actually understood Met for their first few years of flying, so it's always good to have someone to help through those years whilst you gain experience.

[Ed Winchester]

Hello Admin Guru,

I see you are now infecting this thread, like a bad smell. You must be a joy to work with, do you get on with anybody? I await your reply to my question posed in the 'Falklands Farce'.

As for the venerable Met men, I personally think they do a great job. Accepting that it's 'not an exact science' and 'a woolly subject', I am always impressed by the enthuasiasm with which they go about their business. But sometimes, like politicians, getting a straight answer is difficult!!

**************************************************

"Well, it's certainly turned out to be somewhat just as changeable as we predicted, particularly in those scattered areas towards the rest of the afternoon. The old radar-picture shows a considerable lot of it coming in here, here and, of course here.

Turning now to the general picture; well, it's been more or less the same throughout, except for one or two scattered spots here and there once some of that's burnt off later on. There's a considerable area here over the North Sea which, as time goes on, will deepen and then that'll mean that all this weather here will slowly fade out in dribs and drabs until later in the week when, I'm afraid, it looks like more of the same only slightly fresher here and there on higher ground and in the valleys.

Looking ahead now and there just could be one or two further outbreaks before it all clears away giving way to much more changeable weather for the time of year on average, unless of course you're in sheltered or exposed areas in which case this weather-system out here in the Atlantic could be giving you a few problems before it's finished.

Otherwise fairly typical for the time of year with one or two exceptions around coastal and inland areas as the day wears on. Temperatures not much different and one or two scatterings here and there as it all burns off towards nightfall. Some outbreaks towards dawn and then settling down as the day proceeds.

The outlook then and it could be changeable and then again this area here could give way to something.

**************************************************

[Big Tudor]

Ed Winchester

That's probably the most definitive and accurate met forecast for the UK I've heard in a long time <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> . They do say that if you don't like the weather in this country just wait for 20 minutes and it'll change anyway.

Agree that TMM don't always get it right but the weather in UK is like our defence policy. Changes on the hour and varies depending on which side of the street you live. Coupled with the fact that the weather is a British national obsession and the Met Office are pissing in the wind (freshening from the South later in the day). Bring back Iain McCaskill. At least you could have a laugh whilst he was forecasting fire & brimstone.

I do remember spending a day at Bracknell a few years ago. Had to laugh when we saw a group of new met observers leave the building. Every one of them looked skywards as they got outside !! Is there a medical condition called met observers neck ????

[BEagle]

......and, of course, there's always the famous Ten O'Clock Clearance!!

But today the beetles, seaweed and fircones are boding well. The pigeon guts confirm that it will probably be a day which will start dark, get lighter for a while and then dark again in the late afternoon. There'll be some cloud and some wind, probably the chance of a change in pressure, but otherwise there's a reasonable probability of it being another day of UK weather...

[Descend to What Height?!?]

We do have other uses!. .From an in house memo:. .Runaway Aircraft

On 1 February, a ******** aircraft on the ASP at L****** sprung its chocks in strong winds and began. . to roll away. The errant airframe was spotted by the ever-vigilant staff of the Met Office, who alerted ATC. . and OPS to the runaway. The Station Flight Safety Officer called in during the afternoon to thank the staff. . and to express mock surprise that we look out of the window after all!. . **** **** (S Met O *******)

:) :)

[Jump jump John]

I'm not going to rise to that in case it winds other people up. Instead, I will relax, enjoy my (nearly) free money from the government and save my banter for someone worthwhile, safe in the knowledge that in 10 months I WILL be at Cranwell doing the same course that Admin Chimp somehow managed to 'pass'. . .Oh yeah, and actually doing that job I wanted at the end rather than ending up a bitter and twisted unpopular to$$er.

If you don't like aircrew, then why did you join the Air Force you a$$hole?

[goldcup]

AG-

As you point out, the venerable Grob can only fly in VMC. Therefore by definition, UAS/JEFTS do indeed have their days messed up by cloud.

And whilst JJJ may currently be a lentil soup-eating student (note, only one "u" in student), thanks to flying pay in a few years time he'll be able to gorge himself on foie gras and quails eggs like the rest of us steely eyed aviators.

Finally- basket weaving essay banter from a geography graduate- do me a favour!

[opso]

Does Waddington Met Office still have the weather brick on the windowsill. I remember the joy it brought at an 0-my-god (Zulu) briefing to read the instructions:

1. Touch brick.. .2. If the brick's wet, it's raining!. .3. If the brick's moving, it's very windy!

..and so it went on. <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

[Ed Winchester]

Descend to What Height ?,

Interesting incident. 10 minutes later the Met Office issued a strong wind warning. <img src="wink.gif" border="0">