Jihad John/Hanoi Jane

[Semaphore Sam]

Mr. Walker started his ill-chosen course before his countrymen were directly involved; I don't think it has been asserted he directly opposed, or engaged in combat with, his countrymen (unless it's proven he participated in the uprising which resulted in Mr. Spahn's death). I abhor his chosen course, but I think he was young & caught up in something beyond his ken.

Jane Fonda, politically aware in her 30's, took part in propaganda excercises that resulted in increased torture & possibly death to a number of POW's. I opposed the Vietnam War, but could NEVER countenance such perfidy towards fellow countrymen as she practiced.

Jane was never prosecuted (indeed, she has 'celebrity' status to this day, which is Royal status in the US); why should Walker not be allowed to walk? Why the inconsistency?

[Blacksheep]

The inconsistency is simple. The Viet Cong never bombed New York.

**********************************. .Through difficulties to the cinema

[Check 6]

Jane fonda DOES NOT HAVE CELEBRITY STATUS with all in the U.S., only our liberal media who fawn over Hollywood types.

We veterans of the Vietnam era for the most part have great disrespect for her to this day. She is still refusing to apologize.

Note that her father (Henry Fonda) was greatly disturbed by her actions to the end.

[Jackonicko]

Jane Fonda may have been extremely unwise, and may have been unhelpful to her countrymen, but proving that she caused more torture or PoW deaths would be difficult, and your accusation would doubtless delight her lawyers.

But she did not take up arms against her country, and she is seen by some as no more than a misguided patriot - someone who was sincere in their revulsion for a fairly unpleasant war - a conflict whose participants deserve our respect and admiration (perhaps even our thanks) but which itself is something which we should not be unduly proud about.

Certainly many now believe that some aspects of the US involvement in Vietnam was mistaken, unhelpful, and perhaps even immoral. However heroic and brave were those who fought, they were perhaps not fighting an entirely just war.

[Check 6]

The facts regarding Jane "Hanoi" Fonda:

This is for all the kids born in the 70's that do not remember this, and didn't have to bear the burden, that our fathers, mothers, and older brothers and sisters had to bear.Jane Fonda is being honored as one of the "100 Women of the Century." Unfortunately, many have forgotten and still countless others have never known how Ms. Fonda betrayed not only the idea of our country but specific men who served and sacrificed during Vietnam.

The first part of this is from an F-4E pilot. The pilot's name is Jerry Driscoll, a River Rat. In 1978, the former Commandant of the USAF Survival School was a POW in Ho Lo Prison-the "Hanoi Hilton." Dragged from a stinking cesspit of a cell, cleaned, fed, and dressed in clean PJs, he was ordered to describe for a visiting American "Peace Activist" the "lenient and humane treatment" he'd received. He spat at Ms. Fonda, was clubbed, and dragged away.

During the subsequent beating, he fell forward upon the camp Commandant's feet, which sent that officer berserk. In '78, the AF Col. still suffered from double vision (which permanently ended his flying days) from the Vietnamese Col.'s frenzied application of a wooden baton.From 1963-65, Col. Larry Carrigan was in the 47FW/DO (F-4Es). He spent 6 -years in the "Hilton"- the first three of which he was "missing in action". His wife lived on faith that he was still alive. His group, too, got the cleaned, fed, clothed routine in preparation for a "peace delegation" visit.

They, however, had time and devised a plan to get word to the world that they still survived. Each man secreted a tiny piece of paper, with his SSN on it, in the palm of his hand. When paraded before Ms. Fonda and a cameraman, she walked the line, shaking each man's hand and asking little encouraging snippets like: "Aren't you sorry you bombed babies?" and "Are you grateful for the humane treatment from your benevolent captors?" Believing this HAD to be an act, they each palmed her their sliver of paper.

She took them all without missing a beat. At the end of the line and once the camera stopped rolling, to the shocked disbelief of the POWs, she turned to the officer in charge and handed him the little pile of papers. Three men died from the subsequent beatings. Col. Carrigan was almost number four but he survived, which is the only reason we know about her actions that day.

I was a civilian economic development advisor in Vietnam, and was captured by the North Vietnamese communists in South Vietnam in 1968, and held for over 5 years. I spent 27 months in solitary confinement, one year in a cage in Cambodia, and one year in a "black box" in Hanoi. My North Vietnamese captors deliberately poisoned and murdered a female missionary, a nurse in a leprosarium in Ban me Thuot, South Vietnam, whom I buried in the jungle near the Cambodian border.

At one time, I was weighing approximately 90 lbs. (My normal weight is 170 lbs.) We were Jane Fonda's "war criminals."

When Jane Fonda was in Hanoi, I was asked by the camp communist political officer if I would be willing to meet with Jane Fonda. I said yes, for I would like to tell her about the real treatment we POWs received different from the treatment purported by the North Vietnamese, and parroted by Jane Fonda, as "humane and lenient." Because of this, I spent three days on a rocky floor on my knees with outstretched arms with a large amount of steel placed on my hands, and beaten with a bamboo cane till my arms dipped.

I had the opportunity to meet with Jane Fonda for a couple of hours after I was released. I asked her if she would be willing to debate me on TV. She did not answer me.

This does not exemplify someone who should be honored as part of "100 Years of Great Women." Lest we forget..."100 years of great women" should never include a traitor whose hands are covered with the blood of so many patriots. There are few things I have strong visceral reactions to, but Hanoi Jane's participation in blatant treason, is one of them.

[polzin]

Check 6.... Do you know who is doing this"100 most important women honor"?

Received an e mail from someone the other day with the story of the POW that you just mentioned. The e mail was to be sent to everyone you knew to try to stop this award.

[Flatus Veteranus]

Did not J.Fonda have herself photographed aiming AAA at US aircraft? If she were a Brit and the aircraft were British, I beelieve that would be Treason. <img src="mad.gif" border="0">

[Check 6]

Yes, she manned a N. Vietnamese anti-aircraft gun. This was highly publicized at the time by French and other correspondents.

She received the title as one of the centuries 100 most important women by the Ladies Home Journal.

She allegedly remarked, "I wish I could get one of those blue-eyed Motherf@*#er's in these sights!" This was allegedly translated by French Journalists.

[polzin]

Jackonicko.....

Would not be difficult at all to prove that her actions caused more torure of prisoners. Very simple to put the prisoners who claim this under oath and let them tell their stories.

Her revulsion of the war was not any more than many Americans.

[Jackonicko]

Humbly: Hadn't realised the evidence was quite so cut and dried. But whatever it takes to heal the wounds, you Americans know better than a Brit.....

[Wiley]

It would seem to me that if John Walker employs any lawyer who’s been out of law school for more than 48 hours, he’s home free if that lawyer can convince two or three of the Vietnam-era POWs to testify under oath to the actions of Ms Fonda during her visits to North Viet Nam prior to 1973. The question of precedent and the total lack of legal action taken against her should be a very interesting one.

As a serviceman during the Vietnam years, I was spat at and called a baby killer by sweet young things and long-haired yobbos who were on the dole or being put through university on my tax dollars. (A state that so my next comment won’t be misunderstood as coming from a ‘touchy-feely tree-hugger’ etc.) Having stated my credentials, I have to say that I think it would be a travesty if John Walker was dealt with any more harshly than Jane Fonda was for her actions during the Vietnam war. However (in our opinion) misguidedly, Walker took up arms and risked his life in a fight he believed in - and, (an important point), I understand he did so before America became involved in Afghanistan.

Anyone who’s ever been in a military unit in a combat zone will attest that it would have been extraordinarily difficult - (I’d go so far as to say almost immediately fatal) - for Walker to have walked out or even to be seen to have changed his mind about which side he was on. (Especially because he was an American, he would have been watched very closely by the Mullahs for the first sign of wavering.) Jane Fonda, on the other hand, was your typical ‘70’s Gucci anti-war activist. It was the fashionable thing to do, and typically, she had to go one step further than anyone else, as much for the publicity, I believe, than from any greater sense of commitment. She had every right to disagree with her government’s stance on Vietnam, but that right did not extend to travelling to Vietnam and behaving as she did towards her prisoner-of-war countrymen. It’s interesting to compare Walker’s commitment to his cause (see above) to Fonda’s commitment to hers. All she ever did was give celebrity interviews and pose for photo-ops, (who can forget the photograph of her in the NVA pith helmet ‘manning’ the skywards-pointing AAA gun), and the damage she did with her celebrity status, both to her country and especially to the unfortunate prisoners she met in Vietnam, was immeasurably worse than anything Walker might have done.

[Low and Slow]

<a href="http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/hanoijane.htm" target="_blank">http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/hanoijane.htm</a>

You might want to read the above.

This really pisses me off. I enjoy shoving it to the liberals as much as the next man, but DO IT WITH FACTS, not right-wing hysteria.

Makes the life of us Vietnam S.E.Asia historians very tricky, along with all the other bol*ocks written about the War

[Jackonicko]

So the Driscoll and Carrigan stories quoted by Check Six have been explicitely denied by Carrigan and Driscoll? What is the evidence then for Fonda having been any more than a misguided and naive opponent of the war? Is there any real evidence of her having directly or deliberately done anything which harmed or killed US PoWs. Again, I'm genuinely interested.

[MajorMadMax]

Instead of trusting secondhand info from a liberal journo (Rich Buhler, founder and operator of TruthOrFiction.com), instead watch the recent PBS documentary titled "Return with Honor" on the US POWs from Viet Nam (<a href="http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/honor/" target="_blank">http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/honor/</a>).

Robinson Risner (POW, 1965-1973) on Hanoi Radio

If 200 people marched on Washington, they made it 200,000. We learned how to deal with the numbers. Of course, every protest, every anti-war speech made by a person such as McGovern, Jane Fonda, Galbraith, all of those only encouraged the Vietnamese, prolonged the war, worsened our condition and cost the lives of more Americans on the battlefield.

David Laughlin. .QUESTION: Have you forgiven Jane Fonda and others who called you baby killers and cowards for not opposing the war in Vietnam?

Answered by Major General Ed Mechenbier. .No. And I still won't watch anything she does.

Answered by Lt. Colonel Kevin McManus. .David, this must be the most oft asked question to me; my family, friends, acquaintances, and students almost always ask some question about Jane Fonda.

Jane Fonda's comments mean little to nothing for me: she has her opinions and is welcome to them. No forgiveness necessary. I think even the Vietnamese laughed at how easy it was to dupe her. I do take offense to remarks made by Ramsey Clark, Ted Kennedy, and others in public life who knowingly did give aid and comfort to the Hanoi regime. Their political fortunes appear to have meant far more to them than the lives of soldiers who were under oath to defend the same Constitution that guaranteed these politicians their free speech.

Answered by Commander Paul Galanti. .I don't hate Jane Fonda although I've deliberately never seen one of her movies. She is a not-too-bright product of Hollywood who hadn't the slightest idea of what she was doing or of how she was being duped. I don't hate her but I do feel sorry for her. Nothing to forgive.

Steve Whelan. .QUESTION: What were your impressions, then and now, of the peace activists who visited North Vietnam during your captivity?

Answered by Lt. Colonel Kevin McManus. .Steve, thanks for your interest in RETURN WITH HONOR and your question which isn't easy to answer. My impressions, then and now, have not changed much. I felt that Ramsey Clark, Jane Fonda, and others were providing aid and comfort to an enemy of the United States and should be tried under Article III of the Constitution. For some unknown reason our country felt they were not to be charged, and now anyone and everyone feel they can do as they please regardless of the impact on other citizens. I didn't and don't agree with this policy because the outcome(chaos)is virtually guaranteed.

I think they hit the mark, Jane Fonda is too damn stupid to realize the damage she was doing against the US. And, if she was so adamantly against the war, why in the hell did she take sides with the f'ing Viet Cong? They were fighting it as much as we were!

No, you don't have to agree with your government and what it does, but there are acceptable means to protest that don’t come at the expense of others. If not the physical torture that resulted from her visit, then the mental discouragement that came from seeing an American side with the enemy is enough. No wonder her father never forgave her...

[ 06 February 2002: Message edited by: MajorMadMax ]</p>

[Wiley]

We all know about the ‘Eagle Squadrons’ of WW2 – RAF squadrons made up (in part) of U.S. citizens who enlisted in the armed forces of a foreign power, (Britain) prior to Dec 7th 1941, while the U.S. was still neutral. (And while the vast majority of the population of the U.S. was adamantly opposed to the U.S. becoming involved in the ‘European’ war.)

What isn’t quite so well known is that a number of U.S. citizens joined the German forces at the same time. The vast majority were of German heritage, but I’d be willing to bet there would have been a small number perhaps not of German descent who did so out of a deep conviction that they were fighting against Bolshevism, (the Russian/German pact of 1939 notwithstanding).

Can anyone offer any information as to how these people were treated by the U.S. Government after the war? Or care to offer an opinion how the Eagle Squadron people would have been treated if the U.S. had stayed neutral or joined the Axis in the fight against the Russians after Britain’s defeat in 1940-41? If anyone thinks this last scenario is beyond belief, many people in the U.S. in the Thirties, particularly those in the moneyed ‘Establishment’, were far more fearful of the Communists than they were of Hitler. Remember also the strength of the German Bund organisation in the U.S. at the time and recall the deep anti-British feelings of many of the large Irish population in the States. The U.S. Ambassador to Britain in 1940, one Joseph Kennedy, comes immediately to mind.

Back to Jane Fonda. Many well-meaning people in the anti-war movement of the early seventies did reprehensible things in expressing their opposition to the war – at least in the eyes of their countrymen in uniform. However, it was their right to disagree – a right it’s important to remind people that the other side did not give their citizens.

But Jane Fonda ‘crossed the line’, and by a very wide margin, however liberally one likes to interpret what is acceptable behaviour of a citizen of a nation whose armed forces are involved in war. No one, and perhaps, Ms Fonda in particular, should be allowed to forget that this is so.

[Semaphore Sam]

Wiley; noticed your response:

"But Jane Fonda ‘crossed the line’, and by a very wide margin, however liberally one likes to interpret what is acceptable behaviour of a citizen of a nation whose armed forces are involved in war. No one, and perhaps, Ms Fonda in particular, should be allowed to forget that this is so."

Yes, she engaged in unacceptable behavior. She was duly castigated, as followed: 1) Made one of the '100 best women' of the century; 2) allowed 'celebrity' status (same as British royalty, US style...like Diana) in the USA for the last 30+ years, 3) Married Ted Turner & collected more money & fame.

Well well well. In terms of proven facts, she is much more directly guilty of offences against her fellow citezens than Walker. Implication:

IF SHE WALKED, SO SHOULD HE. Maybe he should be considered for the American equivilent of a Baroncy, or Dukedom, as was she. There's no trail of blood from him; Hanoi Jane reeks of blood. Sam

[Semaphore Sam]

As quoted above from LC McManus, concerning Jane & her coherts:

"Their political fortunes appear to have meant far more to them than the lives of soldiers who were under oath to defend the same Constitution that guaranteed these politicians their free speech."

This seems to be just another sound-bite; it IS NOT. Read carefully; they used their fellow citizens as cannon fodder in their ideological wars. These soldiers may have been drafted, may have had anti-war views as well (as I did, but it really doesn't matter). THEIR POLITICAL AGENDA MADE THEIR FELLOW CITIZENS' LIVES EXPENDABLE. In comparison, Walker is an innocent.

[MajorMadMax]

Wiley

I have a great book by Grover Hall, PAO of the 4th Fighter Group, which was born of the Eagle Squadrons of the RAF. In it he says initially recruiting was "a cloak-and-dagger transaction" as not to "compromise US 'neutrality'." However, he states after the US took fright to the impending conquest of England, recruiting "came from behind its whiskers and was quite open." The RAF even had an enlistment booth outside the Bell Street gate at Maxwell Field, Alabama.

As we know the men who fought for England as Eagle pilots are fondly appreciated for giving the Army Air Corps three experienced fighter squadrons when the US entered the war and they became part of the Mighty Eighth Air Force. But even if the US never joined in on the war, I believe they would still be hailed as heroes for helping our closest and best ally.

I know there were American citizens who fought for the Germans in WWII, but I have never read any accounts on how they were treated before or after the war. Being on the losing side, I am sure our country preferred to conveniently forget about there involvement altogether!

As for John Walker Lindh, the “American Taliban”, much like Jane Fonda he is misguided and an idiot, but unless there is sound proof that he directly conspired to and did try to kill Americans, he is not a traitor. However, I feel he should be stripped of his American citizenship and airdropped back in to Afghanistan as a minimum. And I am kindhearted enough to allow him the use of a parachute for his return home!

Cheers!

[MajorMadMax]

The article below justifies my proposal to airdrop this clown back into Afghanistan, minus his US citizenship...I may rescind my offer of a parachute, however.

Nation: E-mails show American Taliban fighter hated the U.S. . . . .Copyright © 2002 AP Online

By MATTHEW BARAKAT, Associated Press

. .ALEXANDRIA, Va. (February 7, 2002 12:01 p.m. EST) - John Walker Lindh's father was surprised when he learned the depth of his son's hostility toward the United States and by the younger Lindh's lack of sympathy for those killed in terrorist attacks, according to e-mail excerpts released by the government.

Lindh, the American citizen accused of joining the Taliban and al-Qaida in Afghanistan and conspiring to murder U.S. nationals, sent an e-mail to his family after a terrorist attack on the USS Cole in October 2000. The e-mail apparently expressed a lack of sympathy for the 17 sailors killed in the explosion.

"I confess I was taken aback somewhat by your lack of compassion for the Americans, who after all are only young people your own age who happened to have taken a job that involved being on a Navy ship," responded Lindh's father, Frank Lindh.

The government introduced a series of e-mails it says Lindh wrote to his family as evidence that he should remain jailed while he awaits a trial that could result in multiple life sentences. Government officials would not say how they obtained the e-mails.

At a hearing Wednesday morning, a federal magistrate agreed with the government and ordered that Lindh remain in custody.

"I find that the defendant has every incentive to flee," said U.S. Magistrate Curtis Sewell, rejecting a request from defense attorneys to release Lindh to his parents' custody.

The correspondence Lindh sent to his family "repeatedly expressed what can only be termed a hostility toward his country of birth and citizenship," prosecutor Randy Bellows wrote in his brief to keep Lindh in jail.

In a September 1998 letter to his mother, the government says Lindh wrote that the 1998 bombings of U.S. embassies in East Africa "seem far more likely to have been carried out by the American government than by any Muslims."

Lindh allegedly suggested in a February 2000 e-mail that his mother should move to England: "I really don't know what your big attachment to America is all about. What has America ever done for anybody?"

Another e-mail sent in 2001 discusses family life in Pakistan, and Lindh was said to have written that the contrast with the United States "really makes me look upon American society with pity."

At Wednesday's hearing, Lindh's attorneys attacked the government's case as weak. Attorney James Brosnahan said the only hostile action Lindh took was as a member of the ruling Taliban militia against the northern alliance. He said that when Lindh joined the Taliban, its government had been a recipient of American aid, while the northern alliance was composed of ex-Communists that were enemies of the United States.

"Until early November ... the U.S. government had not taken sides with the northern alliance, and that is the only group John Lindh ever fought," Brosnahan said.

Lindh's attorneys repeated previous claims that their client's admissions to an FBI agent should be tossed out because they were obtained "under outrageously coercive conditions" in which Lindh was denied food and proper medical treatment.

In his court filing, Bellows disputed that Lindh was treated poorly. He said the prisoner received antibiotics, painkillers and a tetanus shot, and military records show he was provided three meals a day.

After the hearing, Brosnahan suggested the government was targeting Lindh unfairly because of frustration over knowledge that Osama bin Laden, the Saudi-born fugitive alleged to head the al-Qaida terror network, remains a fugitive.

"In my view, they have brought out the cannon to shoot the mouse," Brosnahan said.

Brosnahan also criticized Attorney General John Ashcroft for his comments Tuesday when he announced Lindh's indictment. Ashcroft "violated the usual decorum employed by prosecutors across the country," Brosnahan said.

Ashcroft said Tuesday, among other things, that "Americans who love their country do not dedicate themselves to killing Americans."

That was apparently a response to statements Frank Lindh made after his son's initial court appearance last month, in which he said his son "loves his country."

Asked at a news conference whether his remarks prejudiced a fair trial, Ashcroft said: "No! No! No!" He otherwise did not respond to the lawyer's criticism but pronounced himself "very pleased with the judge's ruling."

At his arraignment Monday, Lindh is expected to plead innocent.

[Semaphore Sam]

MajorMadMax:

Should we also not parachute Jane over Hue (where a suitably ignored butchery took place), before John drifts down over Afghanistan? The ultimate question is, "If he's guilty, WHAT ABOUT HER?" If she walked, why shouldn't he? Why the silence?

[MajorMadMax]

Oh, don't get me wrong, we should've dropped Hanoi Jane out of a AC-130 (sans parachute so she could see if the peace-loving people of Viet Nam would catch her). Why a gunship?? So they could rain hellfire down upon her liberal a$$ next time she sat in a AAA position.

But, let me refer to the State of California vs OJ Simpson. If I had that much evidence against me I'd be making California license plates by now. But if you are a celeb, you can get away with murder (pun intended). Now Mr Walker Lindh is trying to achieve celeb status, thus sparing him from court. I too had a misguided youth, but I went into the service and got my act straightened up, free of charge.

As for charges against him:

Terrorism/conspiracy to murder Americans - The most straightforward case is to accuse Walker of attempting to kill Americans. But prosecutors must prove that he was consciously trying to hurt U.S. citizens, not just Northern Alliance Afghans. CIA agent Mike Spann's death could present the strongest evidence against Walker. Merely joining. .the Taliban probably wouldn't be enough proof of terrorism, but joining Al Qaeda may be close.. .Maximum penalty: death.

Sedition - Similar to treason, but doesn't require two witnesses. Prosecutors would have to prove that Walker was under American authority while he attempted to violently undermine the U.S. government. Because he was in an Afghan prison ostensibly under Northern Alliance control, sedition may not apply. . .Maximum penalty: death.

Fighting for a foreign state - Walker could lose his U.S. citizenship for fighting on behalf of a foreign state. But this is extremely unlikely, and the process takes years. Courts are very reluctant to deprive native-born Americans of their citizenship, but if Walker knowingly fired on American soldiers, the case would be stronger. Without U.S. citizenship Walker couldn't be charged with treason or sedition, but if he was a member of Al Qaeda, he could be tried in a. .military tribunal.

Violation of the Neutrality Act - Legal calisthenics could support a weak case: Americans mustn't violate United States' neutrality by entering a foreign combat zone. But the decision to join the Taliban military must have occurred while Walker was in the United States, and neither Congress nor the President declared the U.S. to be neutral. . .Maximum penalty: $50,000 fine and five years in jail.

Treason - Treason would be the hardest to prove. The U.S. Constitution says American citizens may be convicted of treason if two eye witnesses testify or Walker confesses in court to fighting against the United States of America or supporting the enemies in their fight against the U.S. But without a formal declaration of war, the case is complicated. . .Maximum penalty: death.

Other Minor Charges - Almost all other minor charges, such as carrying an unregistered Kalashnikov, would not apply because they did not happen on U.S. soil. But reduced sentences are likely based on Walker's cooperation with U.S. intelligence.

It will be interesting, personally as stated earlier I think stripping him of his American citizenship for fighting for a foreign state is the most logical legal path to pursue. Fonda's actions, on the other hand, clearly fall under Sedition. The biggest problem with both happened on foreign soil.

[ 08 February 2002: Message edited because you can't tell where the damn paragraph returns are by: MajorMadMax ]

[ 08 February 2002: Message edited by: MajorMadMax ]</p>

[West Coast]

In my time spent in the military never have I seen an issue that inflames more than Jane Fonda. I have seen normally bright,articulate men reduced to mere gutteral sounds as they cannot put into words the way they feel. To the day I die, I will remember the picture of her smiling as she sat on the AAA gun. For those old enough to remember or those who studied the era, I think there is no more hated women in America.

[Check 6]

West Coast, well said. As a Vietnam Era U.S. Navy veteran, I could not agree with you more.

It is a shame, as her father was a retired Brigadier General, WWII bomber pilot, and without any publicity or fanfare, flew on combat missions in Vietnam.

[I. M. Esperto]

Blacksheep - The Taliban never bombed NY either. The bombers were from SA, UAE, and Egtpt. The Taliban never did anything to hurt the USA before that.

In 1989 or so, the CIA put bin Laden in Afghanistan to aid the Taliban in their fight to get rid of the USSR, which was working with what is today, the Northern Alliance.

When Bush saw that a pipeline through Afghanistan to connect the Caucus oil fields to the Arabian Sea was just a pipedream, he decided that we must take the place to make it safe for big oil. His present puppet leader there is an oilman, who was an advisor to UNOCAL. Cheney was a big investor with Haliburton Oil.

We changed sides for this reason, I'm convinced. We did the same before. We backed both Iran and Iraq respectively when they were at war with each other, and we then turned on Iraq when they invaded Kuwait. Kuwait was caught red-handed stealing from the Iraqi oilfields by diagonal drilling.

Saddam then went to our Ambassador, April Glaspie, and asked what the reaction would be from the USA if he took this action.

Madame Ambassador then gave him the green light. The rest is history. For some reason, we are STILL imposing severe restrictions on Iraq. It keeps the Israeli Lobby happy.

[I. M. Esperto]

Does this have a familiar ring to it, or what?. .Smedley Butler on Interventionism

-- Excerpt from a speech delivered in 1933, by Major General Smedley Butler, USMC.

War is just a racket. A racket is best described, I believe, as something that is not what it seems to the majority of. . people. Only a small inside group knows what it is about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few at the. . expense of the masses.

I believe in adequate defense at the coastline and nothing else. If a nation comes over here to fight, then we'll fight.. . The trouble with America is that when the dollar only earns 6 percent over here, then it gets restless and goes. . overseas to get 100 percent. Then the flag follows the dollar and the soldiers follow the flag.

I wouldn't go to war again as I have done to protect some lousy investment of the bankers. There are only two. . things we should fight for. One is the defense of our homes and the other is the Bill of Rights. War for any other. . reason is simply a racket.

There isn't a trick in the racketeering bag that the military gang is blind to. It has its "finger men" to point out. . enemies, its "muscle men" to destroy enemies, its "brain men" to plan war preparations, and a "Big Boss". . Super-Nationalistic-Capitalism.

It may seem odd for me, a military man to adopt such a comparison. Truthfulness compels me to. I spent thirty-. . three years and four months in active military service as a member of this country's most agile military force, the. . Marine Corps. I served in all commissioned ranks from Second Lieutenant to Major-General. And during that. . period, I spent most of my time being a high class muscle- man for Big Business, for Wall Street and for the. . Bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism.

I suspected I was just part of a racket at the time. Now I am sure of it. Like all the members of the military. . profession, I never had a thought of my own until I left the service. My mental faculties remained in suspended. . animation while I obeyed the orders of higher-ups. This is typical with everyone in the military service.

I helped make Mexico, especially Tampico, safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba. . a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen. . Central American republics for the benefits of Wall Street. The record of racketeering is long. I helped purify. . Nicaragua for the international banking house of Brown Brothers in 1909-1912 (where have I heard that name. . before?). I brought light to the Dominican Republic for American sugar interests in 1916. In China I helped to see. . to it that Standard Oil went its way unmolested.

During those years, I had, as the boys in the back room would say, a swell racket. Looking back on it, I feel that I. . could have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I. . operated on three continents.

[Wiley]

It would make for some very interesting testimony if Walker's lawyer subpoenaed Jane herself to Walker's trial.

[MajorMadMax]

Since we were going on about Hanoi Jane, I thought I would post this bit on Ann Margaret I recently got in my email. I cannot attest to the validity of this story, it may be yet another urban myth and legend, but as with all good war stories, as long as it's interesting it doesn't always have to be 100% accurate! <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">

Cheers! Maj M2

. .A REAL lady, Ann Margaret. ( Attn: vets) Not a Hanoi Jane!

Richard, (my husband), never really talked a lot about his time in Viet Nam, other than he had been shot by a sniper. However, he had a rather grainy, 8 x 10 black& white photo he had taken at a USO show of Ann Margaret with Bob Hope in the background that was one of his treasures.

A few years ago, Ann Margaret was doing a book signing at a local bookstore. Richard wanted to see if he could get her to sign the treasured photo so he arrived at the bookstore at 12 o'clock for the 7:30 signing.

When I got there after work, the line went all the way around the bookstore, circled the parking lot, and disappeared behind a parking garage.

Before her appearance, bookstore employees announced that she would sign only her book and no memorabilia would be permitted. Richard was disappointed, but wanted to show her the photo and let her now how much those shows meant to lonely GI's so far from home.

Ann Margaret came out looking as beautiful as ever and, as 2nd in line, it was soon Richard's turn. He presented the book for her signature and then took out the photo. When he did, there were many shouts from the employees that she would not sign it.

Richard said, "I understand. I just wanted her to see it". She took one look at the photo, tears welled up in her eyes and she said, "This is one of my gentlemen from Viet Nam and I most certainly will sign his photo. I know what these men did for their country and I always have time for "my gentlemen". With that, she pulled Richard across the table and planted a big kiss on him. She then made quite a to do about the bravery of the young men she met over the years, how much she admired them, and how much she appreciated them.

There weren't too many dry eyes among those close enough to hear. She then posed for pictures and acted as if he was the only one there.

Later at dinner, Richard was very quiet. When I asked if he'd like to talk about it, my big strong husband broke down in tears. "That's the first time anyone ever thanked me for my time in the Army", he said.

Richard, like many others, came home to people who spit on him and shouted ugly things at him. That night was a turning point for him. He walked a little straighter and, for the first time in years, was proud to have been a Vet.

I'll never forget Ann Margaret for her graciousness and how much that small act of kindness meant to my husband. I now make it a point to say 'Thank You' to every person I come across who served in our Armed Forces. Freedom does not come cheap and I am grateful for all those who have served their country.

If you'd like to pass on this story, feel free to do so. Perhaps it will help others to become aware of how important it is to acknowledge the contribution our service people make.

Your achievement is exactly equal to your will to succeed.