Civil after military?

[vheijens]

I was wondering :confused: , if most military pilots want a job at an airliner after they have done there 6 à 12 years.

It is quite common that military pilots hop over to airliners. But if they do, don't they have a probleme with the "multi-crew" part of the job, because they are trained to function all by themselfs.

Let me know.

http://users.pandora.be/linda.basstanie/TopFly.gif :confused:

[Chinook]

Lets address these issues separately my friend:

1. Mil pilots airliner ambitions.

Agreed many military pilots would enjoy a nice relaxed lifestyle posting to BA or QANTAS. Many of my friends have made the jump and enjoyed it immensely. Some however have hated it, because they are bored out of their minds. It is a sweeping generalisation to propose that all mil pilots want to be airline pilots.

2. Military pilots are trained to fly by themselves.

Admittedly there are a few types of aircraft out there with one seat only - I would say the people operating them are in the minority these days, the majority of military craft being multi crew types. But for the Jaguar, Harrier, Eurofighter jocks out there, I doubt ANY of them would want to be out there doing their job without some form of company - so even if they are single pilot aircraft, the fight is rarely a solo affair. Wingmen, other formations, controllers all need to be brought into the fight so that a single pilot chap can kill another fellow.

So I gues what I'm really saying is .... pull in your skinny neck and stop making sweeping generalisations and asking inane questions about matter which you patently know @#$% all.

By the way, Merry Christmas ********.

This has been an unpaid apolitical announcement on behalf of pissed off aircrew everywhere. :confused:

[vheijens]

How about this chopperboy,

You can say captain to me :D, when in a few years, you are done with your silly games.

And merry Xmas to you too.

(time to close this topic)

http://users.pandora.be/linda.basstanie/TopFly.gif

[ 11 December 2001: Message edited by: TopFly ]

[Mach Alt Star]

Whirlybird, I can only assume from your comments that you have never had to fly multicrew with a former solo jet jock. There can be no doubt that the transition can be very difficult for some, with some never fully grasping the concept of keeping the whole crew in the "loop".

It is fair to say that to it really does depend on the individual, but there can be little doubt that the source of ones military background will dictate the ease and speed of the transition.

But judging by the time of your post you had just fallen out of the mess after drowning your sorrows, realising that hovering in civilian life will barely get you a decent F/O jet salary. Now with stinking hangover you are still trying to workout how you are going to tell you wife that the only way you can afford to leave the airforce and have a house bigger than a shoebox is by spending eternity in Aberdeen.

When you read this I`ll be in the Carribean, and you`ll have just spent the day doing your best wanking jap impression. :D :D :D

[recceguy]

Chinook you wrote a wonderful post, dealing with about all the subject. Thank you. Some people don't have a clue.

Ex-military pilots having joined the airlines can make comments about both business, simply because they have seen both.
I have always been confounded the way pilots from full civilian extraction have no ideas about the way it's in the Air Force (or the Fleet Air Arm)
First the universal tendency to consider former military people as single-seat fighter pilots.. yes, the majority of them now come from aircraft with WSO, with A LOT of crew coordination being involved !
And for all those pilots, doing for example a let-down followed by an ILS to land as a leader of a two-ship close formation, isn't it coordination? or leading a fly-past of 14 aircraft, as I did, in the middle of another hundred, with +/- 5 seconds timing over your head of state, do you consider it to be "alone in the sky" ? Do you know what you are speaking about?
I spent 20 years flying fighters, and now from F/O I am about to promote to captain after one year in this business. I consider it's an appropriate occupation for the second half of my working life - when I was 19 I was selected to become an airline cadet for our big national flag carrier, with everything paid, and I didn't go, instead I went to the AF academy which in my country after graduation is the equivalent of 5 years of Maths & Science University, and after that I did things that I would never have done in the airlines, including dropping bombs on the enemies of my country and leading men to war, which was a privilege - so yes, I never regreted not having followed the Cadet path. Yes, I did "silly games" as one of you said, and I never, never got bored, which is not the case in the airlines (aaahh, will it be 21L or 21R, shall we hold over XXX or not..zzz..)
Within 15 years I will retire, maybe like a 757 captain instead of a 747 captain - what a big difference!
Money (so important in the civilian because people pay and buy their training): well by adding my retirement wages to my current salary I'm not unhappy :cool:

Anyway, I'm however happy in my current job which I like at this time of my life, so what ?

There are only two types of aircraft: fighters and targets.

Never ask somebody if he is a fighter pilot: if he is, he will tell you - if he is not, why embarrass him ?

:D

[Ali Barber]

If someone is joining as a mil pilot with the intention to leave after only 6 years, he is not the kind of single-seat or multi- crew pilot I want in the same Air Force as me. He needs to be thinking about becoming fully operational and concentrating on tactical matters, not where is the easiest place to get an IR on his ATPL. Admittedly, some get disillusioned after a while longer and look at the airlines as a way of escaping one bureaucracy for another - fair enough. But regarding your question, even single-seat pilots have to do a CRM course. As has been pointed out, it's a complete package of formation, support aircraft, fighter controllers, forward air controllers etc.

[Hertz Van Rental]

Topfly

A JAR ATPL requires 500 hours of multi-pilot flight time, so for mil pilots leaving from non-multicrew types there will now be a period of enforced adjustment as well as a compulsory training course (MCC). However, as you have heard, air forces are all about teamwork at all levels, CRM is taught from a very early stage and the actual challenge of converting is more to do with the individual than their previous training. Some love it, some hate it, some are good, others less so. That will be life then..

Hertz

[vheijens]

Thanks dudes,

Finaly I get a normal answer.
And indeed, it is not because you are in different airplanes, you can't fly as a multi-crew.

BTW: my post wasn't intended to be offending.

But I think, if you join the Air Force, you should do this with the purpose of making a carreer of it. And not say after 6 years: thx for the licence, I'm out of here.

http://users.pandora.be/linda.basstanie/TopFly.gif

[Al Titude]

TopFly

Many people join the RAF to get the experience of flying FJs whilst they are relatively young, (ref your single seat question) and then see the airlines as a good option when they have family pressures / fed up with living in tents + getting shot at all day. I don't see anything wrong with this course of action at all - the shortest contract for a pilots job in the RAF is 12 years; sufficient time for the service to get a decent return post training. I disagree with your view that they should somehow be committed for a career - as it reads in your last post - for life.
As has been mentioned before, nearly all aircrew in the RAF operate with at least one more person, but even single seat does not mean you are on your own. Rarely does a Jag/Harr do a sortie when not in a formation or part of a larger package, and this requires the ultimate in co-ordination and co-operation; both in briefings, mission planning, during and after the flight.

Chinook
A good post from you spoilt by the last four lines of unnecessary crap directed at what appears to be a genuine question. No wonder the 'RAF attitude' claim is difficult to shake with some civvy pilots, when you write bollox like that!!
:cool: :cool: :cool:

[15/15 flex]

TopFly

Some of us spend our whole careers happily flying in the multi-engine, multi-crew environment.......so YOU can call me Captain now AND borrow some of my five thousand, wide-bodied, jet hours if you wish. Oh yes, 32 next birthday.

This is the Military Aircrew forum isn't it?

[OldBonaMate]

Al T

Couldn't agree more. It's a shame that when someone from a non-mil background poses a seemingly reasonable question he gets torn apart by flailing rotors, or similar.

I know a lot of guys from various backgrounds, mostly single seat, who have successfully transitioned to the civvy world. Most adapt without problem to the multi-crew environment, some don't - it's a personalty thing, not training or background.

[moggie]

As someone who trained/trains pilots of both multi and single seat persuasion, I have to say that the transition from Mil single seat to Civvie Multi seat is not too tricky - AS LONG AS YOU HAVE THE RIGHT ATTITUDE.

Both camps (mil and civ) contain people who firmly believe that "the other lot" don't know what they are on about. This is not true.

Just as being a Mil heavy pilot (e.g. VC10, Herc) requires different skills from being an FJ driver (Harrier, Jag) then so Mil and Civ flying have different requirements too.

Some of the best civ pilots I have trained have been ex RAF navs - whos spend their whole careers working as part of a crew, whilst learning plenty about airmanship.

Two of the worst I ever trained were 1)ex-civ Flying Instructor who instructed on single engined props and 2) an ex-RAF Red Arrow, Harrier pilot who was a VERY senior multi-engined civvie FI. In both cases it was attitude that was the problem - closed minds and an overblown idea of their own ability.

Mil pilots have more extensive training in handling and are better prepared for the transition to jets than ab-initio pilots who trained on Warriors/Senecas. However, none of that unltimately counts if you have the wrong attitude.

[A and C]

most of the guys who have come from the military have no problems what so ever converting to flying civil airliners and are good team players but there is a very small minority who seem to think that just because they have flown in the RAF that the world owes them a living because as they will tell you at length there are two ways to fly an aircraft the RAF way and the wrong way.

I suspect that as these guys leave the RAF the squadron is glad to see the back of them.

What i have found interesting is that i have yet to encounter this attitude from an ex-navy pilot.

[AllTrimDoubt]

TopFly

What I find interesting in your earlier post is the comment to Chinook that "you can call me Captain...".

Even if Chinook's comments were somewhat robust in places, it is worth remembering that whilst CRM can be taught, respect must be earned!

[Flatus Veteranus]

For what it is worth, when "cross-rolling" was fairly common in the RAF, I believe there was less of a problem converting fighter pilots to multi-crew types than vice versa. :)

[backpocket.com]

Topfly,

Me and my mates have plenty of experience in your better cabins and it has to be said that we don't give a toss who the captain is - most of our fellow travellers up there earn as much or more than you. What we want when we fly with an airline is good quality hosties and good red wine (both of which you get with our favorite airline). Your job involves flying a nice computer with sod-all responsibility and no difficult decisions - well maybe steak or salmon as a meal is difficult for you. The team on the military forum are regularly faced with flying in a highly demanding environment and making hard, critical decisions on the hoof. You might think that your job is outstanding, personally I think that it is boring; if that's the only way you can get to meet top birds then you need to join our fleet.

Next time I call you 'Captain' it will be followed by either:

This wine is crap - what are you playing at.

or

Get in, shut up and thank God we're evacuating all these idiots that chose to go on holiday in Somalia.

[DON-KIESDIK]

You can say captain to me , when in a few years, you are done with your silly games.

You can call me captain too

[Chinook]

Well, you go away from the computer for a few days and look what happens ...


Mach Alt Star
Just another number

Member # 12832
posted 11 December 2001 08:55
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Whirlybird, I can only assume from your comments that you have never had to fly multicrew with a former solo jet jock. There can be no doubt that the transition can be very difficult for some, with some never fully grasping the concept of keeping the whole crew in the "loop".
It is fair to say that to it really does depend on the individual, but there can be little doubt that the source of ones military background will dictate the ease and speed of the transition.

But judging by the time of your post you had just fallen out of the mess after drowning your sorrows, realising that hovering in civilian life will barely get you a decent F/O jet salary. Now with stinking hangover you are still trying to workout how you are going to tell you wife that the only way you can afford to leave the airforce and have a house bigger than a shoebox is by spending eternity in Aberdeen.

When you read this I`ll be in the Carribean, and you`ll have just spent the day doing your best wanking jap impression.

--------------------------------------

Impressed though I am by this bile I am duty bound to point out that:

1. I was not drunk, nor had I been in the mess that day.
1.a. The post is late at night because I live in Australia, idiot!
2. I am not in the Air Force.
3. Aren't we all a little tense in the airline industry theses days? ...

My advice to Mach Alt Star is I will call him Captain when they pry the cyclic head (not my dick as he implies) from my cols dead fingers.

Fly safe, :rolleyes:

[Titan Locked]

Top Fly

Quote "But I think, if you join the Air Force, you should do this with the purpose of making a carreer of it. And not say after 6 years: thx for the licence, I'm out of here."

Can we take this to mean that you are still with your first airline and will remain so until you retire ? Or is it a case, for example, of 6 years with the bucket and spade brigade, thanks for the hours in the RHS, I'm off to be a FO with BA until I have enough experience / time in to be a Capt on Virgin ? (Airlines only used as an example not meant as a normal career pattern!!).

There is nothing wrong with joining up for 6, 9 12 years or whatever as long as you serve the time you committed yourself to. Just out of curiosity (and I know this is the military forum and not the Wanabees [not that I am the latter!]) but what return do the BA cadets have to give? 6, 9, 12 years, Life ??? I guess in your humble opinion they must stay with BA for life!! Or is chopping and changing airlines different from changing from mil to civil flying ?

Happy Xmas

TL

[will fly for food 06]

As someone whos only eve been taught to think and fly a single seat cockpit i would be interested to hear thoughts of previous single seaters about the lengthy conversion to a multi crew airliner and how they found it. Thanks in advance.

[movadinkampa747]

Just how many "I want to be a civvy pilot" threads are you trying to get to the top of the Military site?

[will fly for food 06]

Well thats two, so i guess i should leave it at that.

[DownloadDog]

I for one have had a great time in the Air Force and wouldn't change it for the World. However, as I mature I realise that life has more to offer. It's starting to wear thin living by a programme that is published the day before, moving every 2-3 years, months away on det, working with sub-standard kit, redundancies, poor morale and a government seemingly unaware how bad things really are in the military.

I am in the process of leaving for a career in the airlines as now that I'm grown up I want stability, a reasonable wage and lots more holiday! Besides, who wants to stay in the Air Force to get promoted and end up flying a desk when you could be down route with hosties earning a mint!

:ok:

[MrBernoulli]

Done 22 and a half years in the military, as a pilot, now flying shiny Boeing for big airline. Great fun. It was time for a change and I am enjoying it. Hurrah!