Bring him home

[solotk]

From

<a href="http://www.comm24.de/der-taucher/Tauchplaetze/austria/kaernten.html" target="_blank">http://www.comm24.de/der-taucher/Tauchplaetze/austria/kaernten.html</a>

A rough translation is....

Ossiachersee

At 501 meters above sea-level and with a maximum depth of 52 meters and not far from Villach.. .Ossiachersee is the third largest lake in the Kaerntens region of Austria.. .During the First World War a Cossack army was disarmed here and its armament dumped into the lake. Bayonet, sabres and daggers lie here in the mud. . .Ton way is still scattered the reason by shells, cannons, . .explosive, and, and, and. Leftover from the brown past, . .end of the Second World War. . ."A Spitfire rests here with its pilot on the lake bed". On approx. 16m a jeep is in the morastigem underground.

For reaching the most interesting dive sites, the . .borrowing of a rowboat is recommended.

I would like to identity this Spitfire, especially as it appears that the pilot still lies in the wreckage and he should be laid to rest in a proper manner, I am a bit annoyed that people can dive on this aircraft but have not seen fit to do anything about a body....

Anyway, the problem with this as far as the RAF goes is they do not get involved unless the relatives ask them to.. And to do that you need to know who the pilot is first..

Therefore the problem begins in dentifing the unit and the aircraft, I suppose we could take the view that to everyone EVERYTHING single engined is a Spitfire, EVERYTHING multi-engined is a Lancaster..

But I was wondering if anybody here knew of a missing Spitfire lost in Austria during (probably during the later stages of WW2? or soon after?) I have checked the post war records from August 1945 to Dec 1949 with no luck

Tony

[MajorMadMax]

Triple-P

Sorry I can't help, but I am interested. Any luck in finding out anything??

My computer translation isn't much better...

"Leftover from the brown past, end of the Second World War. A Spitfire is to rest with their pilot on the sea-soil. On approx. 16m a jeep is in the morastigem underground. For reaching the most interesting dipping goals borrowing a rowing boat is recommended."

But, as you said, any single-engine fighter could be mistakenly called a Spitfire.

Keep us informed, and best of luck!

[solotk]

Thanks Max..

I have sent an e-mail to the original author, and am waiting on a reply.Yhe problem is, I can't find any reference, to any Spits being lost in the time frame. So now i'm wondering, if what we have, is a Tempest or a Mustang, or even a Yak 9!

Whoever he is, it is time to repatriate his remains...

Tony

[Archimedes]

Px3 - 93 Squadron (Spitfire) were at Klagenfurt from May 45 - September 45. Perhaps one of theirs before August 45 and not in your search?? May well have been other units there too; I'll see if I can find out.

You're right, though - could equally be a Mustang (it could even be an Me109, but you'd think that they might get that right...)

{edited to make sense)

[ 24 January 2002: Message edited by: Archimedes ]</p>

[MajorMadMax]

It is a very noble thing you are doing, I am sure the pilot (and his family) would be grateful for your efforts.

I only wish I could help more. About all I can do, other than search the 'net, is see what I can get through the Air Intelligence Agency History office. Might take some time, and as I leaving for Belgium in about two months, they might not be able to get an answer to me before then. However, if there is anything I can do to assist, please don't hesitate to ask.

Best of luck!

[MajorMadMax]

PongoPP

I did a little research and found a couple of groups around the Ossiachersee in Austria that might be able to provide some more info. I sent them some email (and cc'd you) using my best German syntax and an on-line translator.

Hopefully it will make sense to them, they read all right to me and I lived in Germany for four years, but to a native it may seem like jibberish.. .So I put the link you posted on as well, so they can figure out what the heck I am talking about.

I hope we get some leads from this. Not exactly the diving season in Austria right now, but I was hoping someone might have some underwater pics of the wreckage that might provide some clues (i.e. markings on the a/c) to the type/nationality of the plane and its pilot. Don't think we'll get any quick answers out of them but you've got me motivated to help solve this mystery.

Let's keep our fingers crossed!

Cheers!

[X-QUORK]

I've taken the liberty of posting a request for info on the local Diving Club's website, they're based in Villach and have pictures of their dives in Ossiachersee :

<a href="http://www.tauchschule-pazifik.at/index.htm" target="_blank">http://www.tauchschule-pazifik.at/index.htm</a>

My German's a bit rusty to say the least, but hopefully they'll get the message :

Bitte entschuldigen Sie, aber mein Duetsch ist nicht so gut. Sprachen Sie Englisch ?

Es gibt ein Britisches website fur luftpiloten hier : <a href="http://www.pprune.org" target="_blank">http://www.pprune.org</a> Sie suchen bilde von der Spitfire in Ossiachersee - konnen Sie uns hilfen ?

Haben Sie das Spitfire gesehen ?

I told you it was rusty !!

Let's see what happens.

[X-QUORK]

MajorMadMax,

Sorry, just reread your last thread above mine...I hope I haven't contacted the same group ?

[MajorMadMax]

X-QUORK

Yep, same folks, plus a tourism office (Touristikbüro Bodensdorf) in Villach. The latter sent a reply today:

Sehr geehrter Herr Major Michel H. Moore!. . . .Leider ist uns diesbezüglich nichts bekannt. Bitte wenden Sie sich an den Herausgeber dieser Information.. . . .Adresse: . .der-taucher.de. .Uwe Kötter. .e-mail: [email protected]. .der-taucher.de. . . .Mit freundlichen Grüßen . .Silvia Wastl. .Tourismusbüro Bodensdorf

I translated it as bast I can (my German is rusty as well), they say they don't know anything about it, but the publisher of the info, Uwe Koetter, might and they list his email address.

I think this is who Tony (Pongo) may have already contacted. If not, I will forward to Uwe as well.

Don't worry about multiple emails, maybe it will convince the Austrians several people are interested and they will help. Odd folks the Austrians (my aunt is one), but friendly so hopefully one will pick up the stick.

By the way, thanks for joining the crusade to solve this mystery. Would be quite a feather in PPRuNe's hat if we go this resolved. In Nov 2000 there was a Spitfire pilot recovered and buried 55 years after he crashed in nothern Italy. The BBC article can be found at:

<a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/scotland/newsid_1030000/1030219.stm" target="_blank">http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/scotland/newsid_1030000/1030219.stm</a>

Cheers!

[X-QUORK]

I don't have time to look into this right now, but the following link might prove fruitful :

<a href="http://users.pandora.be/airwareurope/archaeology.html" target="_blank">http://users.pandora.be/airwareurope/archaeology.html</a>

If nothing else it has links to some useful organisations.

[solotk]

Guys, thanks for all the work so far. X-Quork, I'm trying to keep the so called "Aviation Archaeologists" out of it, it tends to give RAF Innsworth the shivers, if they know one of those groups is involved! Don't get me wrong, the vast majority, are genuine and committed historians and preservers. However, if you need an idea of those that are not, then just point your browser at <a href="http://www.barnstormers.com" target="_blank">www.barnstormers.com</a> -&gt;classified ads-&gt; warbirds, to see wreckage from mid-air collisions described as "nice bits".here was a case last year, of a Tempest crash, where there was some debate, that the pilots remins in situ, may have been mishandled and reburied, to avoid reporting the find.

But so far Max and X-quork, I am very grateful and pleased, that other people want to get involved, and grateful for your help thus far. I hope that more military aircrew, or just military people, who feel the way i do , come forward. If the case is, that this person is still in an aircraft after 55 years, he needs to come out. Howver, if he should prove to be American, i know how extremely good the CIHLI recovery team are in Hawaii, and I know they do everything to recover.

Finally, part of me does hope, that it's just a mis-translation on all our parts, and the website author, actually means..."The body OF the aircraft, not the body IN the aircraft"

Once again, many thanks, and Max and x-quork,and thanks for keeping me posted

Tony

[MajorMadMax]

No word yet from anyone in Austria.

Just wanted to keep this topic alive...

Cheers!

[solotk]

Thanks Max,. .As long as we're thinking about him, he won't be forgotten <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

Tony

[Sven Sixtoo]

Here's a colloquial translation by a mate of mine, and his comments.

"Lake Ossiacher - the 3rd largest lake of the Karntens area lies at 501m amsl, near Villach, with a max depth of 52m. During WW1 a Cossack army was disarmed here and the arms and equipment sunk in the lake. Bayonets, sabres and daggers sleep here in the sludge. The lake bed is littered by the ton with grenades, guns, explosives and much else besides. Left behind from the end of WW2 in the brown muck of the past, a Spitfire sleeps together with its pilot on the lake floor. At about 16m depth there is a Jeep in the quagmire. To reach the most interesting diving spots the hire of a rowing boat is recommended."

If the report is correct, it might be worth bringing it to the attention of the RAF diving fraternity, as the Spitfire could be salvaged from that depth, and if the pilot is still there, at least he could receive a proper burial. However, I suspect the identification may be wrong, as Spitfires couldn't have reached the area in Austria until very late in the war, and. .as far as I know it was the US forces which operated in southern Germany and Austria, rather than the British.

[solotk]

Thanks Sven

We've all been wondering about the Spit thing too, inless it's a USAAF one out of Italy, but I think that's too far. I still can't find a record of a Spitfire lost from August 45 onwards , so am wondering, if this aircraft is actually a Mustang or a Thunderbolt...

Tony

[MajorMadMax]

Sorry, still nothing from the dive clubs in Austria...

Is anyone going to bring the to the attention of the proper authorities within the RAF? It seems as if our initiative has lost momentum, and perhaps it is time to let those tasked with investigating this matters take this over.

Not to hand this off, I wish I really could do more, but I just don't think we have the resources at hand to get the ball rolling on this one. And the pilot of the aircraft, whatever nationality he may be, deserves closure.

Guys, I salute all of you for your interest and efforts to resolve this. I am glad honor still resides among us.

Cheers!

[solotk]

I can't put this one down Max.......

There must be, lurking on this forum, someone who is in the RAF Sub-Aqua club, or at least ,who knows someone who is? I'd like to find out, how to set up a dive expedition. I have also e-mailed the local Police, who may have more on this, and am awaiting a reply.

We'll get there in the end Max and all <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

Tony

[MajorMadMax]

NEWS!! Got this email today (copied and pasted directly into this post):

Dear Mike,

sorry for my late answer, but I was very busy last week.

In case of the spitfire I have to inform you that it was recovered two years ago. I was done by a german. Shells, bombs and ammunition is still inside the lake in a huge amount. I'm able to show you these thinks during a dive. The dive itself is not very difficult because all the things are seen not deeper than 15m.

The Jeep is still under water. So we could also have a look on it.

It would take a few dives just to see a small part of all the things down in the lake.

If you like any further information please don't hesitate to write an e-mail.

Please apologize my lousy english.

Yours

Peter Marek. .SSI - Open Water Instructor. .Ossiachersee; Carinthia, Austria

He didn't mention a pilot so I would natually assume there isn't one, but I will reply and ask just to be certain. I will also ask if he can provide any details to why they say it is a Spit.

If there isn't someone in the plane, then I don't know the legal status of the aircraft. I'll leave that to the experts.

Cheers!

M2

[MajorMadMax]

Tony

Peter sounds willing to take whoever wants to dive the wreckage to the site. Although I am originally from Florida, I am not dive qualified (although I may spend a week or two there before going to Belgium and will see how much a basic course costs). I am sure there are divers in Europe who are willing/eager to check this out, it's just a matter of making contact with them.

As you know I replied to Peter's email, hopefully he can provide more information on the aircraft and site.

We're getting there...slowly but surely!

Cheers!

[MajorMadMax]

Hopefully we'll have our answers soon (see below), Peter has been really helpful. I plan to send him a small token of appreciation from Texas once we get this settled.

Mike

I'll try to get answers to all of your questions, but it will take a few days. I'll write back as soon as I'm able to.

Have a nice day.

Friendly regards

Peter

God bless the internet, not only did it allow us to find out about this, but it helped us get the answers as well. Could you imagine how tough this would be without computers??

I hope the news will be good, that there is no pilot in this aircraft and that we'll be able to figure out what kind of plane it really is.

Cheers!

[only1leftmate!]

Guys

If I can be of assistance here I will gladly help out. Firstly though you should be aware that the reference to the Spitfire and the pilot is made in Konjuntive form, a device in the German language used to report rumour or unsubstantiated 'facts'. In journalism it is our version of 'allegedly'.

I'm not saying that there definately isn't a wreck and a pilot down there, but the publishers are keen to create interest. The curious phrase 'brown muck of the past` is a bit of a wordplay to describe the mud and also to excuse the reference to WWII by acknowledging the Evil of National Socialism (NAZIism).

If you need any help with translations to get to the bottom of this just let me know.

[solotk]

Max, hope u got my reply to your e-mail....

Outstanding work on this, I have also received an e-mail, which sheds a more sinister light, but I hope i'm wrong. As soon as ur around, could u drop me an e-mail, I'll send u what i have by return....

and once again, thanks everyone who's contributed so far

Tony

[X-QUORK]

PPP,

Are you able to fill us in on the e-mail that casts this story in a more sinister light ?

Regards,

X-Quork

[MajorMadMax]

Tony

Did get your reply (great email stationary, by the way!), and just sent a note back to you. I was beginning to get my hopes up about all this, I pray it's not bad news you've recieved...

Cheers!

[solotk]

Max e-mail on the way....

X-Quork, I can't copy the the whole e-mail to this board, but i hope we're talking about 2 different Spitfires, because try as I might, I can't remember any stories of Pilot's bodies being found in Austrian lakes in the last few years, or recovered Spitfires come to that

Tony

[MajorMadMax]

Still nothing from Peter in Austria, he said it may take a few days...

Quite the mystery, innit??

Cheers!

[Pub User]

Gents, I hate to put a damper on things, but the actual translation of the text is that it is rumoured that a Spitfire lies there.

That said, there is no smoke without fire, and it would be fantastic if this thread were to lead to someone being properly laid to rest.

To that end, if anyone involved in the investigation requires German to English translation, then I would be happy to oblige.

[ 15 February 2002: Message edited by: Pub User ]</p>