200HR Proposition

[Merh]

Gday guys,

I've recently obtained my PPL and have completed my CPL subjects, so it's now on to my command hour-building.

A good friend of mine, who also happens to be a G1 Instructor and a current airline pilot, has offered me an aircraft which he owns to complete my hour building. Obviously, I would have to change to the 200HR course (I'm currently on the 150HR), and pay GST. However, he's offered not only to give me the aircraft at near cost, but to come along as a friend/passenger, and ensure get me to a Commercial standard. The plan would be to then present myself to a flying school to jump into a CSU, at a near-Commercial standarad and do the complete amount of flights before my eventually completing my flight test.

So essentially, I have an incredibly cheap aircraft available to me, with free instruction.

Does anyone have further thoughts/experiences on this?

[beat ups are fun]

It sounds like a good offer. What type of aircraft does this guy own? If your planning on going from a 172 to something like a 206/210 for your test I'd think again. I'd also maybe suggest doing a few lessons with your flying school while your flying with your mate. This will ensure your not picking up bad habits from your friend.

[tmpffisch]

Obviously, I would have to change to the 200HR course

Who says? The school or just what you thought? I'm sure there's some schools out there that place these restrictions to make a few more $ but its not a CASA rule as far as I know.
I've logged time outside of my school towards PIC on a 150hr syllabus.

Sounds like a great deal, and even if you did have to log the extra 30 PIC and 20 dual on the 200hr, it may still save you money.

[ZappBrannigan]

The only bit of advice I'd give is - I don't believe it's a good idea for him to come along on many of your command navs. There's a large difference between being PIC with an experienced pilot next to you, and being alone in the plane (or the only pilot). You need to get completely used to the feeling of flying alone, and not having anybody there to assist should you require it.

Most guys here would have felt that slightly empty feeling when something's going slightly wrong (weather, equipment, disoriented approach/nav etc.) and for the first time, you've got nobody to chat to and discuss a course of action with. If you've got a G1 sitting next to you on lots of command flights - you're not getting the true command experience, as you'll have the feeling of security that he'll be there if you really stuff something up. Just my opinion, but I feel that training-wise this is pretty much a dual nav where the instructor says "ok you know what you're doing - I'm not going to say a word on this flight, I want to see you do everything".

[goldypilot]

AMEN..................

[BlinkC182]

tmpffisch - To be eligible for the 150hr course all flying must be "supervised" by your school.

Day VFR Syllabus
2.8.8. Only hours accumulated while undergoing supervised training with a school whose curriculum includes an Approved CPLA Training Course may be credited towards the 150-hour aeronautical experience requirement for
licence issue.

[Bla Bla Bla]

I agree with not having him next to you all the time but the deal with the aircraft sounds good. Don't worry about not doing the 150hr course because you will need a **** load more hours after your cpl/fatpl before you get a job anyway.

I built my hours in a similar way and it was great as once trusted with the aircraft I had to make my own decisions to go or not to go as it was not at a flying school. If I was really unsure I would phone a friend (18000hr friend) and discuss it with him.

Go for it, its so much better than being tied to a flying school, you will see near the end when you will have to go to one. Don't worry about converting to another type either it makes no odds what you are flying now.

Enjoy

[The Green Goblin]

Yes, the 150 syllabus is tied to the school however if you have a brief and debrief (i.e filling out the paperwork for your file) then the flights will be included in the 150 hour syllabus.

I suggest speaking to the CFI :ok:

[manymak]

ZappBrannigan,

Couldn't have said it better myself. :ok:

[Jabawocky]

Good offer, and if he comes along for a few rides, you can learn a heap of stuff about weather..... you know push outside your comfort zone so you really learn....but with someone to save your a$$ or at least show you what you can and can not do.

The rest of the time he/she would need to try to be quiet and say nothing, and debrief after the flight.....unless you try to kill him or destroy the plane!:uhoh:

And as others have said, you need to do some yourself, it can get lonely the first few times you are facing crappy weather and all by yourself!

As for penny pinching on hours etc......the more the better! And inbetween do your CSU/retract and get some instruction in a 210 or something.

Better prepared = Better prospects...........no matter what you do in life!

J:ok:

[VH-XXX]

My only concern would be the availability of the aircraft. How much of a friend is this guy, will he sell the aircraft half way through, etc, etc? You could end up up a creek without a paddle and have to do hours elsewhere.

[Merh]

Wow, excellent feedback - thanks guys.

He's a very good friend. The aircraft is a Warrior II which he currently has on-line, but is unhappy with the lack of flying it's doing at this particular school. He's looking to pull it offline, give the aircraft to me and once I've finished with it, he'll then put it online with another flight school.

He's offered to come on a few flights, just to make sure that I'm making progress (no bad habits etc.), I'd be doing most of it by myself or with friends/family.

He also offered to give me charter type scenarios by calling me on the morning of a flight, and giving me a route, much as a flight school Instructor would do. I'm definetely looking to make the hour-building challenging, and constructive (towards my Commercial), as opposed to burning up and down the coast.

My current flight school have told me that I would be required to do the same training after my hour-building, as I would on the 150hr course, which is obviously not ideal. My ability considered - I'm hoping that I won't have to do an excessive amount of flying with a flight school after my hour-building, before they offer me a flight test.

Thanks once again to everyone for their feedback, keep it coming!

[TSIO540]

I think you'll find that when you come back to finish off your CPL, the flying school will have to fill out a form certifying your competency for a long list of items listed in the 'Day VFR Syllabus'.

It is my understanding that each item in the 'Day VFR Syllabus' under CPL has to be observed to the commercial standard three times before it can be signed off.

Once all items have been signed off then a CFI can recommend you for your CPL test. Make sure you discuss what the requirement for certifying competency will be with the CFI whom you intend to ask for a recommendation.

[CitationJet]

Quote - My current flight school have told me that I would be required to do the same training after my hour-building, as I would on the 150hr course..

Perhaps it is time to find a new flying school. Your CPL assessment is competency based. If you have the minimum hours, have passed the exam, and can demonstrate in a pre-licence test flight that you can execute the manouvres listed on the CPL test form to the required standard they should put you up for the test.

I would give any school which claims you must complete a set course of instruction to obtain a 200hr CPL a wide berth.

[Merh]

TSIO540 - "It is my understanding that each item in the 'Day VFR Syllabus' under CPL has to be observed to the commercial standard three times before it can be signed off."

So essentially this would mean that in addition to the CSU endorsement, by minimum, there would need to be 3 Nav's flown at a Commercial standard?

CitationJet - This did give me the :mad:, and was very unaccommodating. Unfortunately, it seems near impossible to find a flying school willing to do anything out their way. Basically, I'm hoping to come across a flight school who will accommodate me after my hour-building, and allow me to undertake a CPL flight-test is the least amount of time (provided I'm up to scratch). Have spoken extensively to the CFI of a reputable school in Melbourne regarding this, so I'm keeping that option open, as I'll be looking to complete a NVFR and potentially an Instructor Rating afterward.

Has anyone else been a product of the 200HR course? How did you find it for your Commercial training?

[TSIO540]

So essentially this would mean that in addition to the CSU endorsement, by minimum, there would need to be 3 Nav's flown at a Commercial standard?

Yes, if the school is doing things correctly. You can download the day VFR syllabus (or at least you used to be able to) and it will list all of the items of competency that you must demonstrate for a CPL test recommendation.

What you might be able to do however is simply talk to the school about doing all of your flying in this aircraft assuming it is insured for flight training and the owner is happy to let the school use it (even if only for you); or at the very least you could ask the CFI to approve you to do some of your solo navs in the aircraft and stay on the 150hr course.

P.S: It is my experience that very few students get through in 150hrs even on a supervised course, and of those the only ones were the students who could commit at least 5 days a week to flying training. Your typical CPL will take around 170-200hrs total.

If you can do this and save some money, are you going to spend it on quality CPL theory training?

[43Inches]

There is no legal course requirement for the 200 hour CPL, as long as you meet the minimum hours and pass the flight test you should be granted a CPL.

The 150 hour course allows you to gain a CPL in reduced hours by completing your flying and theory in accordance with a CASA approved school syllabus (the AOC will list training approvals). Theoretically you have condensed the flying into structured lessons and it should result in the same or better standard than someone who just flies the 200 hours without guidance.

You could save some cash by including the NVFR as part of the CPL hours.

Ratings and endorsements can all count towards the hours for the 200 hour CPL. With a 150 hour course the school may have an approved syllabus which includes NVFR or aeros etc...

This is the day VFR syllabus extract regarding the assessment flight;


2.9.2. Prior to undertaking a CPLA flight test, a 200-hour candidate must undertake an assessment flight with a Grade One flight instructor. As a result, the instructor is to recommend as appropriate, that the candidate either is ready to undertake the CPLA flight test, or should undertake, in accordance with the relevant parts of the Day VFR Syllabus, a tailored course of training designed to prepare the candidate for the flight test.

[Merh]

"If you can do this and save some money, are you going to spend it on quality CPL theory training?"

TSIO540 - Thankfully, I've completed all of my CPL theory :ok: It's just the flying I'm trying to knock over, would ideally love to have my CPL knocked over by the end of the year.

[CitationJet]

Merh - I did exactly what you want to do re CPL with Steve Pearce at PBAFT in Moorabbin in 1996.

After gaining the required hours in private flying my CPL 'training' consisted of 2 x CPL navs, a couple of hours IF to get minimum hours and then the CPL flight test. All done in less that a week.

If your current school is stuffing you around, talk to Steve at PBAFT.

[Merh]

CitationJet - What aircraft did you do your hour building in? What you mentioned is exactly what I'm looking to do. Did you then do your NVFR post-CPL? Thanks for the heads up :ok:

[CitationJet]

Merh - my hour when I started CPL were -

C150 52hr
C172 129hr
Warrior 31hr
Arrow 17hr

all hired from various schools. Total time 230 of which 64 were dual.

When I went to PBAFT for the CPL the only flying I had done with them was a CSU/retract endorsement in an Arrow two and a half years earlier.

I had done a couple of long cross country pleasure flights into central NSW and SA which covered off the CPL nav requirements.

The CPL 'training' was a nav of 2.3 hours, a prelicence flight of 2.4 hours, 1 hour I/F sim, 1.9 hours I/F flight to make up the required I/F time and then the flight test.

The only rating I had pre CPL was the CSU/retract endo. After CPL I skipped NVFR and went straight to a ME-CIR.

Talk to Steve. I am sure he can help you out -if he can fit you in!

[Merh]

CitationJet,

How'd did you find the flying after your hour building, when it came time to do your CSU/Endo + CPL Nav's? Had your private hour-building conditioned you close-enough to a Commercial Standard? Any tips?

That's my only concern - deviating from a structured course makes me anxious as to wether or not I will arrive at a Commercial standard at the end of my hour-building trip, although I will be relying to my G1 mate to guide me. Just a slight concern. For the record, I'll be looking at flying 5-6 hours a day, every day (Wx permitting).

Thanks in advance.

[the air up there]

I'll be looking at flying 5-6 hours a day, every day (Wx permitting).

Thats alot of flying. How many times have you done 5+hours a day consecutively?

It's not easy to sustain that when you are hour building, even on a trip round oz, you'll soon burn out.

[SM227]

Merh,

Print off the CPL flight test marking sheet and at the end of each flight, see if you met the requirments. The only big things CPL wise that I found to be watched more closely are you heading and altitude constraints, your accuracy in landings and ability to navigate to a remote location. It really is just another flight and if you can pull it off error free your licence is in the bag :cool:

[CitationJet]

G'day Merh,

I didn't find have any difficulty being up to standard for the CPL navs. As SM227 said, get the form and fly to the required standard as you hour build. It is probably worth doing the CSU&retract endorsement at the start of the hour building and put a couple of private hours in just so you are comfortable with the type you will ultimately use for your test.

[Merh]

the air up there - Good point. Perhaps i'm being a bit over-ambitious. Might try and plan it to have a day's rest in between, or cut the days down to 3-hour flights. Just that I'll most likely have the plan for 3-weeks only.

SM227 - Also good advice, I did take the time to notice that the PPL & CPL test form are essentially identical. I will take on that approach, thanks a lot. Is re-assuring to know that I force myself to pursue accuracy and efficiency in my hour-building then I should be the goods come CPL time.

CitationJet - Thanks again mate, I wasn't sure wether to finish off my CSU before or after the hour building.

Thanks again guys, any thoughts and advice are much appreciated. I'm still a bit nervous about going my own way, but in the same breath, quite excited. :ok:

[world instrucor]

what type of plane? and at what rate? there are many great rates in USA with their weak dollar. Dont develop bad habits, do you have an instrument certified plane and are you instrument rated ? let me know and i will tell u my recommendations,

[Homesick-Angel]

Great thread guys.Ive got a heap out of it...

Im in a really similar situation to you Merh, and im sure almost every PPL-CPL has had the quandry of how to go about building those hours(unless your loaded or not paying for it).A friend hiring you a plane sounds like a good deal-anything that can save you a few grand here and there will be a bonus..


A question?
My understanding is that the 150 hour course isn't going to get you too far once your qualified, and that 200+ hours is when most employer's will seriously entertain hiring you(for those first flying type jobs-not F.O for Qantas)..Is this a correct assumption, or are there guys out there who have been hired sub 200?

Good luck with it and enjoy!

[Merh]

WI - The aircraft is a IFR Piper Warrior II. The rate is excellent, bordering on 'cost' as it's a close mate who is doing me favor - substantially cheaper than any flying school can offer.

Oh, and no, I'm not Instrument Rated, just building my hours for a 200HR course CPL.

Cheers :ok:

[The Green Goblin]

You'll probably be flying 5-6 hours a day in your first commercial scenic job, so I don't think it is being over ambitious one bit.

Back in my Kunus days during the peak season I was smashing 100 hours a month working any available hour I had.

Get ready for it now! You'll need it working long haul spending much more than 5-6 hours in your seat!

[Merh]

I'm investing a bit of time into ringing around for a Flight School that will accomodate for my CSU, a couple of Comm Nav's and my test.

I've had Bini's suggested in Melb, but I'll be doing most of my flying in North Queensland, so around Townsville, Cairns or anywhere in between would be good. Has anyone got any suggestions.

Providing i'm near or at standard at the end of the hour building, I don't want to go to a flight school (like I currently am), where I'll be forced to do follow the 150HR Commercial Syllabus anyway. Defeats the purpose.

[Jazzy78910]

I've just completed my PPL, but not yet started my CPL. I have 70TT, 15PIC. Would hour building be more beneficial for me AFTER my upcoming CPL 150 course, or would getting say 20 extra PIC now offer any advantages?
(Sorry to digress from the primary thread topic for a moment).

[tmpffisch]

Oh Jazzy, considering you need 70 hours PIC in your 150hr CPL course, you'll find hourbuilding beneficial.....and necessary.
Speak to your school though, they may have some requirements that you need to meet (such as only hours logged in their aircraft count).

[Jazzy78910]

Oh Jazzy, considering you need 70 hours PIC in your 150hr CPL course, you'll find hour building beneficial.....and necessary.
Speak to your school though, they may have some requirements that you need to meet (such as only hours logged in their aircraft count).

Sorry, allow me to clarify: Should I build PIC hours now (before the dual CPL Nav flights), during (between Dual CPL Nav flights), or after (after completion of the CPL Dual Nav flights). Or does it not really matter when I start to build solo hours?

[Merh]

Pretty sure your flying school's syllabus will dictate that you do the bulk of the hour-building prior to jumping into the Comm Nav's :ok: This is the conventional way when it comes to the 150HR course, but there are a few exceptions.

[tmpffisch]

IMO (and by all means follow what your instructors recommend instead), is to do one commercial nav, then your hour building, then the rest of the navs required for CPL.

By doing at least one nav first, you'll have an idea of the standard to work towards on your hourbuilding, while once you get back you'll be able to nut the remaining navs out quickly.
I did 1 CPL nav the day before I left for a 6 day trip, 1 nav the day after I got back and the final CPL navs the week later.