ITV "Bloody Sunday" Pogramme

[TicketyBoo]

I am moved to make this post having just watched the last half of this programme. It fits in well with the “Knock HMF” attitude which prevails in so much TV culture, but I was extremely miffed to see a programme which went so far out of its way to distort the truth and present propaganda for the IRA. For instance, the Paras could be seen and heard firing several hundred SLR rounds at short range into a densely-packed crowd of civilians. If they only hit 13, they must have been lousy marksmen! . .By the adverts I gave up on counting the pathetic inaccuracies. More to the point, I thought if the advertisers I noticed were willing to lend their name, and put their money to financing, this unpleasant farrago of lies, then it might be a good idea not to put any business towards:

Toyota Motors,. .The Bertolli Pasta Sauce company,. .The Manchester G-Mex Centre.Caravan Exhibition

Hopefully other Ppruners with a better attention span can supplement this list.

TicketyBoo.

[BEagle]

This was presented in cinema verite style and I don't know how much was established fact and how much was total fiction. The ongoing enquiry will eventually establish the truth, hopefully.

I clearly remember it being reported at the time 30 years ago; but remember that was at a time when the UK armed forces had precious little experience of how to deal with civil disturbance.

There will be claims and counter claims; I will not pass judgement or get excited about which advertisments were shown. The truth is more important than emotional reaction to this controversial programme and that is what we must all wait to hear.

[Emerson Cahooners]

TB I totally agree with you. What annoys me the most however is the decision to broadcast this tripe whilst the public enquiry is on going in Londonderry, clouding easily influenced public opinion. Great choice ITV.

Dear Tony, just wondering when the public enquiry / ITV drama on; Omagh bombing, Warrenpoint massacre, Brighton bombing, Canary Wharf bombing, Baltic Exchange bombing, Downing Street mortar attack, sinn fein/ira ......etc is going to be?

Oh no my mistake. Rant over (for now)

<img src="mad.gif" border="0"> <img src="confused.gif" border="0"> <img src="mad.gif" border="0"> <img src="confused.gif" border="0"> <img src="mad.gif" border="0">

[Jackonicko]

Simply don't believe that the Para offiocers involved would have acted in the way they were shown, nor that the Para's were quite so 'up for it' as they were shown to be. If the Army fired first, then I'm sure that it was cock-up rather than conspiracy.

I didn't watch closely, but didn't notice Martin McGuinness with his Tommy Gun shown, nor any one with nail bombs, nor any other gunmen. Even-handedness would surely dictate that all the accusations over Bloody Sunday should at least have been shown/mentioned.

What did we really expect from a TV drama, though? Truth?

[Archimedes]

Perhaps the most disingenuous part was at the end, with the line that the officers involved were all later decorated by the Queen. The implication that this was a sign that HM fully approved of the 13 deaths was so obvious that it wasn't even an implication.

The programme was, IMHO, a one-sided piece of propaganda that must have had certain members of the Northern Ireland Assembly almost wetting themselves in delight.

[TL Thou]

The timing was double edged - not only does in pre-empt the Sunday Bloody Sunday inquiry - whose costs now seem set to stretch to £200m (they should have just saved the money and promised the IRA a season's worth of free ITV prime time commercials) but also with the deployment of 2 Para to Down Town Kabul - just to add insult to insult to injury. <img src="mad.gif" border="0">

[Big Tudor]

BEagle makes a very valid point. British forces had precious little experience on how to treat civil disturbances on the streets of the UK. The rational behind deploying British forces on the streets to police a civil rights march was questionable.

An who in their right mind thought the SLR was an appropriate weapon for crowd control?. .Jesus Christ, it is an evil piece of kit on the battlefield, never mind the local High St.

I think there was evidence from the programme that it was a minority, on BOTH sides, whose actions worsened an already fraught situation. Surely the British Army commanders on the ground in NI must have had some understanding of the impact of deploying para's on the streets.

[Jackonicko]

Big Tudor,

You sound dangerously close to suggesting that there is some degree of moral equivalence between rioters, petrol bombers, terrorists and the British Army, when there is none.

I have a degree of sympathy for the Bloody Sunday marchers, but had they obeyed the law, and not marched illegally, and had the IRA not used their march as 'cover' for attacks on the security forces, then no-one would have been killed. Without the paramilitaries and the hot-heads, even had the march gone ahead the worst that would have happened would have been that a few people might have been treated a little too roughly by the Paras.

And where is the proof that the IRA didn't fire first? And where is the proof that some of those shot were not engaged in petrol bombing or worse? There is no proof either way, so why do we have to believe the Republican version of events so uncritically?

[Finals4TheOutsideWorld]

I did the only thing that I could think of in protest at the making and showing of a programme full of unproved incidents. I went to bed and read a good book instead!!!!!

Maybe we could try to get Lottery money to fund a proven fact based drama about IRA attrocities against innocent civilians!! But then again, that wouldn't be PC would it?

[The Mistress]

Totally agree that one-sided, emotional clap-trap such as this should not be shown whilst an Inquiry is still on-going.

[Flatus Veteranus]

Trouble is that "Bloody Sunday" is a very well-made TV drama and so is doubly effective as IRA propaganda. It was obviously made to sell into the USA and to stir up anti-British feeling there - which, according to today's Torygraph, it has well succeeded in doing. You can hardly blame Granada when the Saville Inquiry itself is an outrageously expensive charade aimed at promoting "El Presidente's" Peace Process, throwing the British Army's honour to the wolves. At 30 years' range it is absurd to expect any public Inquiry to arrive at "the truth" (whatever that is) and meanwhile people like M. Mansfield QC enrich themselves at our expense. Ivan Cooper's cringe-making oration towards the end of the programme even dredged up the Amritsar incident of the '20s. Well, historians of integrity have not yet accepted Attenborough's account of that day.

For me, recent events at Holy Cross school marked some sort of watershed. The Army was deployed to NI in numbers in 1969 to protect the rights of the Catholic minority and prevent any further ethnic cleansing, but the Catholics thought that promotion of the Nationalist agenda was part of the deal. 30 years, 3000 lives and umpteen billions of taxpayers money later (let us not forget that NI has the best public housing, state schools and hospitals in the UK) we saw our soldiers being pelted with petrol bombs (and allegedly being fired on) by both sides. For my money, cancel the Saville farce and give a short-notice deadline to pull the Army out. Let them sort themselves out with government expenditure reduced to average UK "per capita" levels. <img src="frown.gif" border="0">

[ 23 January 2002: Message edited by: Flatus Veteranus ]</p>

[Muff Coupling]

Worth bearing in mind this was a "dramatisation" and not a documentary..it will have therefore suceeded in "entertaining" the masses, whilst failing to inform those who wanted to "understand".

The "rationale" behind using Paras on the streets,was quite simply, they were deployed in the Bde ORBAT (order of battle) and as such were treated as ordinary forces. "Reputation"..ah,that is a different issue!

The SLR was the standard issue personal weapon of the time, its suitability as a "crowd control weapon" is totally irrelevent. The Baton Gun of the time, with a proper rubber bullet!, was about as much use as a Gordon Brown Budget. I do not believe you would want to have stood in open line with a dustbin lid and baseball bat, with Martin McGuiness (circa 1972)and his players running around with Garands, AR 15 and M1 Carbines. Did I see a Mess Webley and a Lee- Enfield .303, flashed around and used in the program?

Do'nt forget..the British Army has been Garrisoned in N.I. since 1921 (Omagh, Armagh, Enniskillen, Belfast. Counting Palestine, Suez, Aden, Borneo, Malaya to mention a few, plus the the previous 4 years of troubles, the British Army had bit more than " precious little experience" in dealing with civil disturbance.

Sorry..felt the record needing putting a little straighter..especially as ITV failed to do it! Feel free to have a go.

[Big Tudor]

Jacknicko

I would never even imply similarity between the British Army and the morons who perpetuate violence in society in the name of religion and force ordinary people to live in fear of their lives. . .I too have sympathy for the marchers who, I feel, represented the majority of people in NI who only wanted the right to be treated as equal in their own country. Yes, perhaps they should have obeyed the law and not held the march. However, working on that principle, where would black civil rights in the US be. It wasn't law abiding citizens who brought about the fall of apartheid in South Africa, nor was it the gun wielding maniacs who hijacked the black cause for their own gains. It was the structured and reasoned arguments that were presented by those who really wanted change. I don't recall Archbishop Tutu being branded a terrorist when he participated in banned marches.

Muff coupling - as you say, reputation is a different matter. The question remains, was that reputation used as a psychological weapon to provoke a response from the hooligan element. If so, then the para's were as much victims of a poorly thought out government policy as the marchers.

[Jackonicko]

Big T,

You say that you're not comparing the British Army with terrorists, but your comparisons tend to support the nationalist view of Bloody Sunday, and as such, they enrage me!

Northern Ireland is NOT South Africa, nor was it the USA during the Civil Rights era.

Irish Catholics and Nationalists were not an oppressed majority population. (They may have been discriminated against, but they were not a majority).

The British Army was an instrument of the legitimate, democratically elected government of the United Kingdom.

The legal route had not been exhausted at the time of Bloody Sunday, whereas it had been in the good old RSA.

[Big Tudor]

Jackonicko.

I can assure you that I do not support the nationalist view of Bloody Sunday. It is my view that the facts of what did happen have not been made public (or are not known), and as such I will try to remain open minded until they are. Unfortunately I do not think the public inquiry will clear this issue up, particularly if it finds in favour of the Army. Their are too many people who have a vested interest in maintaining the controversy surrounding the events. You say the British Army is an instrument of the legitimate, democratically elected government of the United Kingdom. However, what happens when the reputation of that instrument is used to provoke an adverse response in order to satisfy a belief? The march had been peaceful up until the time the para's were spotted. Given the reputation of the Parachute Regiment wouldn't this be tantamount to incitement?

BTW, you say that . . [quote] Irish Catholics and Nationalists were not an oppressed majority population. (They may have been discriminated against, but they were not a majority). <hr></blockquote>. .Black Americans were not a majority in the US either however their decision to march for civil rights is not questioned. It was my belief that discrimination and oppression could be achieved on the grounds of race and/or religion. I would have found it oppressive living as a catholic in NI at the time. How safe would you feel if you couldn't trust your local police force?

IMHO the program was a watchable piece of TV drama interspersed with occassional facts. I do think it portrayed the IRA leadership for what they really are, a bunch of cowards who hide behind bullish, macho young men who will do anything for their 5 minutes of glory and infamy. However, I also think it raised questions about the way in which the whole NI situation was handled.

[kbf1]

If you want a good list of all of the inaccuracies contained in the programme, then have a look at today's Daily Mail which picks them out and corrects them. For comparison the names and circumstances of all of the soldiers killed that year are listed to he right, it ran to about 30-odd names. While I would not wish to suggest that the deaths of 13 civilians should be lauded, it is worth comparing what the IRA were up to that same year.