Job Security - Which airlines?

[funkyt111]

After reading through many threads about a career as an airline pilot it seems I may have been some what naive in my perception of the profession. (a serious lack of jobs, sometimes low salary, disruptive lifestyle, bases often far from preffered choice plus many more)....

......Nevertheless, a career as a pilot is my dream and will do what ever it takes to get there. It seems a lot of people opt for the ab-initio route rather than joining the military. Why? Only reasons I can think of, is that they disagree with a the a lot decisions made by the MOD and may think certain things are morally wrong. Or they realise that the RAF/NAVY is damned hard work lol, in which case there passion for a career as a pilot is questionable.

Am i wrong in saying that the RAF/NAVY is the most secure place to be a pilot? And my question is, which airlines are the most reliable in terms of job security? Are there airlines out there, where when you begin employment with them, your 95% near enough guarenteed a job for life with good salary etc?

Also, how long ago was it, when a career as an airline pilot was secure? When was there a demand for pilots? Consistently high salary? Will this ever happen again....?

[n.dave]

job security doesn't exist!

n.dave

[Bealzebub]

A military career is just that, it is not a stepping stone on the way to becoming an airline pilot. The military have a selection criteria and process that trains pilots for various flying roles including front line combat. The requirements are very different and for applicants the vocation should be fully understood. Many military pilots continue a career after their military service, by aquiring the civil licences and working for airlines, but that shouldn't be confused with the fact that these are two distinct and seperate careers.

In the commercial world, you are dealing with commercial realities. Gone are the days of most state funded carriers where there was a degree of security. These days there may be a relative security with carriers who are commercially successful, but that is anything but guaranteed. Flexibility, planning and good luck are the requirements for many of these companies and their employees.

Employment renumeration in a commercial marketplace is driven by supply and demand. If there is a high demand and a low supply then rates (wages) will rise as companies compete for a scarce resource. Conversely if there is weak demand and a plentiful supply, the rates will fall until the price reflects the broader level of the market.

At the present time there is a vast oversupply of low hour pilots. There is very weak and falling demand from the airline companies. There continues to be a need for experienced pilots, but that demand is easily satisfied by the ready supply of experienced pilots who are either unemployed, facing redundancy or now able to extend their career longevity (retirement age raised.) It is quite difficult to see where any significant new demand will come from in the near term. Any improvement at home is likely to be readily satisfied by the the current and projected levels of displacement (pilots working on short term contracts, working overseas, unemployed.) Emerging markets in the near and far East will continue to seek experience for their left seats, but have no shortage of their own keen, bright, teenage wanabees in other respects.

Recent opportunities have shifted towards airlines looking for cost reduction opportunities and shared revenues in the right hand seat. Affiliations with training schools for "tailored" First Officer programmes have enabled training organisations to benefit. These affiliations also enable some airlines to benefit from low cost, low experience pilots, being able to occupy the right seat as a continuation of these training programmes. In order to maintain a cost benefit there would appear to be some limitations on these programmes as a source of providing an ongoing progression within those same companies. Nevertheless it seems to be an increasingly popular route, and possibly the main path for the near term future. The obvious downside, is that these positions are more vocational/ business opportunities, rather than demand driven jobs. As such any renumeration will reflect that reality.

As to the future? Anybody can guess, but nobody can forsee all of the possible permutations that might arise in combination to give a random reality. Pilots wages will rise when demand once again outstrips supply. At some point that will very likely happen. However it may well take legislative and regulatory changes to the entry level requirements to remove a lot of the entry level supply. It will also take significant improvements in the economy to create the necessary increased levels of demand.

[funkyt111]

Wow. That was a detailed a lengthy response which is much appreciated. Thankyou for taking the time to share your knowledge with myself and other wannabe pilots.

I believe there are certain airlines such as Virgin Atlantic whose preferity is to employ ex military pilots. I could imagine this being common amongst most major airlines due to the nature of the highly disciplined training recieved. How much easier (if at all) is it for ex military pilots to gain employment within the commercial airline industry? How much training after military service would be needed in order to convert to a commerical airline pilot?

"As to the future? Anybody can guess, but nobody can forsee all of the possible permutations that might arise in combination to give a random reality. Pilots wages will rise when demand once again outstrips supply. At some point that will very likely happen. However it may well take legislative and regulatory changes to the entry level requirements to remove a lot of the entry level supply. It will also take significant improvements in the economy to create the necessary increased levels of demand."

Is there any kind of predictions from economic experts as to when this might happen then?

[Bealzebub]

Oh yes! Every single one of them has their own economic horoscope.

Whatever they say will either be right, wrong, mis-timed, modified, historically based, broadly accurate, vague, or whatever other justification or excuses they elect to offer.

As a society we hate uncertainty, and we love the idea that people can predict the future, so whole industies have evolved to satisfy that demand. You won't have to look far here to find plenty of evidence of that.

[Tiger_ Moth]

Or they realise that the RAF/NAVY is damned hard work lol, in which case there passion for a career as a pilot is questionable.

Or maybe they just realise that military flying and airline flying are two totally different things and that it would be stupid to use the military as a stepping stone if your heart wasn't in it. You clown.

[Floppy Link]

Reading the "Job Security - Which airlines?" title immediately brought to mind the letter that Chuck got from NASA...

http://www.chickenwingscomics.com/archives/content/strips/20081202.jpg

Congratulations on the new word though......preferity...

[Zippy Monster]

Only reasons I can think of, is that they disagree with a the a lot decisions made by the MOD and may think certain things are morally wrong. Or they realise that the RAF/NAVY is damned hard work lol, in which case there[sic] passion for a career as a pilot is questionable.I'm in a nice, stable Airbus job in Europe and I didn't go through the military. I don't really give a monkey's what the MOD does and doesn't do, so I don't fit into the first category. So by your reckoning, I must fit into the second? Honestly, there are so many things wrong with that statement I don't know where to begin.

It makes me cringe every time I see this word "passion". It's used so often on these forums, yet I've never really seen it defined. I get up every morning (or afternoon, depending on the duty), go to work, enjoy my job and come home. I don't get excited about it, I just do it. Yes, it's very often enjoyable, sometimes stressful, occasionally annoying and every so often you wake up thinking "I really can't be a*sed today". Does the fact I'm not hopping from one foot to the other with excitement everytime I get within 50 yards of an aeroplane mean I not 'passionate' enough for the job?

Does this desire to "do whatever it takes to get there" stretch to such acts as paying the likes of ATP et al for the privelige of being able to ponce around the airport in a nice uniform and enjoying 250 hours in the right hand seat? It does for some, and that's the problem. They claim to have this 'passion for flying', whatever that means, and have absolutely no clue about the downsides of life as an airline pilot - all they can see is the glamorous side, which is becoming less and less so by the day. And I guarantee that you won't be feeling the 'passion' when you're on day 5 of earlies, dodging CBs in the dark on a cold, windy, rainy morning, unable to get a word in on the radio because everyone else is doing the same thing, passengers throwing up in the cabin and FLIDRAS watching your every move.

If you really want to fly because you're 'passionate' about flying, i.e. simply the act of being airborne and not about all the commercial and operational pressures that go with it, do a PPL and leave it at that. And while you're at it, why not define this term 'passion' for us?

damned hard work lolI would imagine it's damned hard work full stop - not sure what your 'lol' is intended to imply, if you must insist on using 'instant messenger speak'.

[smiler68]

job security....it has to be Ryanair.

[funkyt111]

Good points made. I did mention in my first post that I am still naive to the commercial airline pilot profession and have a lot to learn. And I also understand that military jet flying is completly different from commerical flying but how much can does commerical airline flying differ from flying the military transport aircraft?

It makes me cringe every time I see this word "passion". It's used so often on these forums, yet I've never really seen it defined. I get up every morning (or afternoon, depending on the duty), go to work, enjoy my job and come home. I don't get excited about it, I just do it. Yes, it's very often enjoyable, sometimes stressful, occasionally annoying and every so often you wake up thinking "I really can't be a*sed today". Does the fact I'm not hopping from one foot to the other with excitement everytime I get within 50 yards of an aeroplane mean I not 'passionate' enough for the job?Im guessing you have been doing your job for a long time though so of course your not going to get excited about it. However, when you first began flying, I bet it was hard to contain your excitement?

If you really want to fly because you're 'passionate' about flying, i.e. simply the act of being airborne and not about all the commercial and operational pressures that go with it, do a PPL and leave it at that. And while you're at it, why not define this term 'passion' for us?
I want to fly because of many reasons. Not just about being airbourne. I want to fly because I enjoy responsbility and want to learn about aircraft structures, flight systems, aerodynamics. At the moment I have little knowledge in these areas and want to learn more about the operations of aeroplanes etc.

I would imagine it's damned hard work full stop - not sure what your 'lol' is intended to imply, if you must insist on using 'instant messenger speak'.The "lol" is purely intended to add light heartedness into my post.

I apologise if I have offended anybody but my point was that I could not understand new trainee pilots securing hefty loans on there parents houses to train to be a pilot when you can join the RAF/NAVY and do it for free, whilst starting on a 30k salary. If the reason behind it is purely because its completly different type of flying then fair enough.

Tiger_ Moth. I see no reason for insulting language. This is a discussion. I have a lot to learn. I have said I am still quite naive to the industry. So if you can't dicuss things properly like an adult then id appreciate if you keep your childish comments to yourself .

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

You don't decide to join the military as a pilot. They select you. From a vast pool. Of very dedicated, very focussed, very high calibre, very passionate, very informed, very motivated, very prepared, very able young men and women.

You wouldn't be selected.


Even if you were then there's a very high chop rate during all phases of training which last several years.


Looking towards the military as a means to starting a commercial flying career is a crap plan with tassles.

WWW

[funkyt111]

You wouldn't be selected.

On what judgement?

[BitMoreRightRudder]

Or they realise that the RAF/NAVY is damned hard work

Any type of commercial flying is damned hard work mate. Just the written exams you are required to pass to obtain a basic commercial licence leave grown men in tears. The reality of airline flying is hard work too. Compare an airline pilot flying 900 hrs a year and a front line Tornado pilot - both will work hard and get pretty tired, but for entirely different reasons. You just can't compare the two, the military is entirely different to flying in the civvy world, the proverbial apples and oranges.

It seems a lot of people opt for the ab-initio route rather than joining the military. Why?

It is far easier to complete the training, gain a fATPL and get a job with an airline than get through the training required to fly for the RAF. And it is bloody difficult just to achieve the former, which tells you all you need to know about the RAF, and the dedication and commitment required of everyone who serves within it.

[Tiger_ Moth]

funkyt111,

I'm afraid your comment was so ridiculous and offensive that it did actually deserve derision.

However, I do agree with you that you are naieve and have a lot to learn about the industry. The military is a career in itself, and you would do well to heed WWW's words about severe chop rates.

The reason I called you a clown is because your comment was ridiculous. According to you my passion for a career as a pilot is questionable because I didn't go through the military. I'm sure a lot of other people found it offensive too, and some of them have already posted to that affect.

I'm not going to apologize for what I said, because I believe it was correct. You can't expect to make statements like that and not have the p**s taken out of you. You just can't!

However, I do accept your apology for offending people and I wish you the best of luck whatever you choose to do.

[funkyt111]

Yeah i understand the gaining a commercial license is hard work etc but I didnt mean hard work in this way. Apologies, I should have been clearer. I meant the OASC training, the levels of fitness you have to achieve and general life in the RAF/NAVY. Not the career its self.

It is far easier to complete the training, gain a fATPL and get a job with an airline than get through the training required to fly for the RAF

This I didnt know...

Exactly how difficult is it to get through the training required to fly in the RAF? (As a percentage, how many people get through?)

[funkyt111]

Tiger_ Moth (http://www.pprune.org/members/30793-tiger_-moth)

Clearly my posts have been taken the wrong way. I did not mean in any way at all that you are not passionate unless you take the military route. I expect to be called a clown if I thought that. As I explained above, I merely meant that I could not understand why new trainee pilots would opt to secure massive loans on thier parents houses when they could join the RAF and train for free whilst getting paid.

Now that people have explained that there is a HUGE difference between military flying and commerical flying I understand as to why new trainee pilots are making these decisions. Also I now understand that military life isn't for everyone.

[Tiger_ Moth]

Ok then, fair play to you, but it did appear that was what you thought, because it's what you wrote.

I can't speak very authoritatively on chop rates in the RAF, but just going from people I've met over the years, it is very high. Try the military forum for a better idea. Also, there can be frustrating periods of random duties whilst waiting for the next course: ie 6 months doing god knows what after finishing IOT before starting basic flying training and I think it can easily take 3 years or more from joining to get to your frontline squadron (if you make it that far!). That was a reason why someone I knew left.

But anyway, to sum up: if you view the RAF as a cheap way of becoming an airline pilot then that is a crap plan. You're in for about 12 years: that's a long time to be doing something just as a stepping stone.

However, if you actually want to be a military pilot then joining the RAF/ Navy is a good idea and you should go for it.

Also, it's not like if you go the civilian route the only way is to secure a massive loan on your parent's house (which I think is morally wrong). You could always earn the money yourself over 5 or so years doing something else and go modular, thereby spending about half the money for the same licence with the added bonus that you may have a career to fall back on if things go to sh**e like they have now!

Whatever you decide, good luck to you.

[TheBeak]

I am all for drilling people but funkyt111 is asking for advice and admits his/her naivity. Perhaps you could have laid off the assumptions in your first post but put that aside.

In response to could you be selected for the RAF the answer is of course yes provided you are British (which isn't a terribly difficult thing to be thses days). The likelyhood of whether you would pass is pretty slim however. Why? Because the RAF, as WWW points out, have:

very dedicated, very focussed, very high calibre, very passionate, very informed, very motivated, very prepared, very able young men and women

applying. These people have probably, like myself towards a commercial flying career, tailored their lives towards becoming a military pilot. Trying to compete at the best of times, with the best of motivations is going to be tough.

Being an incredible pilot, military trained does not mean you'll be a good airline pilot. I have met several military pilots from Lynx, Chinook and Merlin backgrounds, through to KC135, VC10 through to Harrier, Tornado and Hawk pilots all who have achieved their commercial licences and still cannot attain an airline flying job. Some are instructing. One did that for a few months and was bored out of his mind and left flying all together.

Don't sign up for the country to potentially spend your life because you think you'll get a free CPL/IR out of it (or at least the knowledge to attain one). And in terms of lifestyle, military pilots lead typically very ordinary lives.

People need to stop trying to overly engineer their futures. Just take a look at the state of our economy to see what happens if you do that (thanks to several terms of a Labour government). Make your decisions for the right reasons, because you want to, because it doesn't have a negative effect on your loved ones and you'll be fine.

[Nearly There]

Funky t111, I commend you on the way you have handled some of the responses received regarding your initial post, you are young, new to the industry and seeking some advice for your research, thats all.
We were once all in your position and quite naive to the industry, I know I was and discussions with pilots and students throughout training highlighted this, often over a beer and brought humour to the conversation.

Buried in the responses is some useful info, Military selection is tough and not a free ticket to a future in the airlines, the calibre of candidates is extremely high, and the selection procedure is a long and difficult road, I know several military pilots but even more who didnt complete training. Where as in civilian flying, I dont know anyone who has started training and not completed it.

As for job security, look at the companies who have gone, and the companies that have laid off, the industries big names appear on the list, when times are tough aviation suffers, always has done, first to suffer going into a reccesion and last to recover coming out.

Of course you have a passion, we all have, agreed the word is used a tad to much on these forums, but you havent posted saying I want to wear a uniform and earn loads of money and have fun with hosties, you have posted because you want to fly, correct?

Good luck to you

[funkyt111]

Tiger_ Moth (http://www.pprune.org/members/30793-tiger_-moth)
Thankyou for your advice.

Im 80% sure I'm going to go to university to study Aerospace Engineering with pilot studies before training to be a pilot. So I'll have a degree to fall back on if things do go pear shaped or I cant be a pilot for whatever reason.

I won't be joining the RAF/NAVY as a stepping stone to becoming an airline pilot. Im just thinking about life after military life. You can only be a RAF/NAVY pilot till the age of 40. I'd like to think it would be easy to convert to a commercial airline pilot after military service....

[funkyt111]

Thankyou Beak.

Some of the advice recieved on this forum is invaluable and massively appreciated. Your responses give me a lot to think about. I never thought for a second that the RAF/NAVY would be a walk in the park. The fact that its so difficult makes me want to do it more. However, at the same time I need to be realistic and think things through thoroughly before making any decisions.

No matter which route I choose, it appears things are far from straight forward when choosing a career a pilot eh!

Being an incredible pilot, military trained does not mean you'll be a good airline pilot. I have met several military pilots from Lynx, Chinook and Merlin backgrounds, through to KC135, VC10 through to Harrier, Tornado and Hawk pilots all who have achieved their commercial licences and still cannot attain an airline flying job. Some are instructing. One did that for a few months and was bored out of his mind and left flying all together.

If this is the case then why do airlines such as Virgin Atlantic prefer to employ military trained pilots?


"Nearly There" I also appreciate your comments. Im glad people like yourself and "Bead" can relate to my situation and naivity. Hopefully in 10-15 years time from now, ill be in your position offering advice to people similar to myself!

How long does selection take to when initially applying to the RAF/NAVY? And for what reason did the military pilots not complete training? By choice or by failure?


Thanks guys!

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Look. Forget the military. At 22 you appear to know not the first thing about it. Its therefore massively massively unlikely that you'd pass selection, never mind training. Decades ago when I went to Biggin Hill (that dates me!) to OASC for RAF pilot selection there were 2000 applicants for every job. Since then the RAF has shrunk by more than half but I doubt interest from Wannabes has...


I know its startling for someone to be blunt these days and call a spade a freaking shovel but you've got no chance of a military pilot career so don't waste your time. You're not even close to being cold.

That's not being nasty. Its just boiling off the - go for it - bull**** and getting down to the truth.


Your career options are:

1) Pay for a CPL/IR Frzn ATPL MCC + 737 type rating and join Ryanair for 6 months before going to Brookfield, or,

2) Get a PPL and enjoy recreational flying whilst doing something sensible like being a dentist, having a social life, wife, family and outside interests.


Really.


WWW

[TheBeak]

Hopefully in 10-15 years time from now

In about 3 you could be in mine!

I have actually passed the selections for a couple of the forces as a pilot. The selection doesn't take a very long time at all, the great thing about the whole process too is that they will happily give you a chance if you meet the minimum requirements. You'll need to do FATs - Flying Aptitude Tests which assess you as a Pilot, Observer/Navigator and ATC. If you pass those you'll do a medical. You'll then also need to do the relevant officer selection which varies between 2 stages for the Army, 1 stage for the RN and 1 stage I believe for the RAF. Passing all of these is just the beginning however. The early training isn't too tough but it very quickly gets ramped up. Fancy flying at a couple of hundred feet at night under wires in night goggles? These guys and girls are awesome. Don't discount the Army as a flying option either.

If this is the case then why do airlines such as Virgin Atlantic prefer to employ military trained pilots?


I think you are living in the past a little mate, the likes of Cathay and Virgin used to be big on the military - it was more of a deserved club. This industry has changed exponentially in the last 10-15 years - unfortuantely in my opinion. It isn't about skill much anymore, it is all about - are you going to complain, join a union, expect anything, have an opinion, cause trouble, cost money. These days I think Virgin prefer you to be a lady ripe for pregnancy - it promotes a good public image to the Harriet Harmans of the country.

[TheBeak]

Look. Forget the military

Why? It costs nothing unlike the £260 Ryanair selection and is an excellent lesson in selection and you'll receive feedback, which most airlines wont offer.

You have nothing to lose by trying. Actually joining however is a different story.

[Halfwayback]

funkyt111

As one who has been flying in both the Military (22 years) and Commercial Airline world (19 years) with over 12,000 hours I do feel I can comment.

The service flying is not just being a pilot but being a serving member of the Armed forces with all that goes with it including accepting the risk to life and limb - to say nothing of the restrictions that the Service life places upon you.

Being a commercial pilot is driving an aircraft from A to B and managing the sytems and crew to ensure it is done efficiently and safely as possible. Haiving done it for a long time there are the daily variations but in the main it can become routine. The only career progression is towards training and /or management but takes a while to acheive. The life it brings with it the responsibility for those you carry and work with. There is less restriction, but an equal amount of disruption, to your lifestyle.

Given some of your responses above I agree with WWW that there is little chance of you beating the dedicated and focussed applicants to become a military pilot. It is a very specialised recruitment. As to your original post, the Military can be cut at a whim and no doubt the Future Carrier will be a casualty in the next couple of years with a reduction in pilot numbers.

The commercial flying recruitment at the moment is dire. The commercial world tends to be cyclical and at the moment it is bouncing along the bottom. Airlines are suffering and there will no doubt be casualties there also. In the majority of cases (but not all) Airlines work on seniority based on joining date so job security can either be based on seniority or meritocracy. Either way you are as good as your last check-ride.

Take your choice - but listen to what others have said before jumping into what is obviously the unknown for you.

HWB

[funkyt111]

I don't see how you can make judgements about my potential based on a few posts on a pilots forum. You have no idea about me, who I am, my education, my personality. Fair enough my knowledge of the military is some what limited, but before I apply to the military I guarantee that I'll know all there is to know about the forces and I'll be more prepared than I have for anything in my life. I have 2-3 years to prepare....I am at the moment, in no position to even think about applying. But when I do, Ill be as focused as any other applicant.

But Halfwayback and Beak I appreciate your post and will take on board what you have said.

[Halfwayback]

I'm not sure that is the case.

I know a number of folk that were not British but came from Commonwealth countries who served, and are serving, in the British Armed forces.

HWB

[fade to grey]

Funky,
Goodluck with your endeavours - I don't know if anyone has said this but if you do manage to get in the military there is a good chance you will get killed or have to kill.Don't see it as a route to a commercial licence.

Some airlines still have a bias towards ex-military, mine doesn't.Its true to say the ex-mil guys are generally very accomplished pilots, however these skills are not called for that often in modern airliners.Airlines want to right sort of people - that is what the prime requirement is.

'Passion' doesn't really come into it, if you want to keep that 'passion' get a PPL, fly for fun and become a dentist (job security !).

[student88]

Just my 2 pence:
Don't pursue the military route unless your heart is set on a career in the forces. Although attending the assessment process will offer you some assessment experience you'll only be wasting your time and the time of the lovely people at Her Majesty's flying club. Don't fool yourself into following something you don't want to follow. If you're hearts not in it there's usually no point in doing it.
(assuming you haven't already) Get yourself a nice degree totally un-related to aviation which makes you a professional in something. It's always good to have something you can fall back on! Yeah, it'll add about 20K to your debts but who knows, the better jobs you'll be able to get because of it may offer you more in remuneration in the long run.
(assuming you haven't already) Get your PPL! You may find it enough to sooth your hard-on for flying. If not, pursue the commercial route once you've done the degree. If you don't have the money to learn to fly light aircraft then try and find a gliding club. Believe it or not it's just like real flying but without the hefty price tag. (sarcasm)
Continue to take criticism so well on these forums. I admire your calm forum manner!End.

S88

[funkyt111]

Guys,

I can't tell you how much your responses are appreciated! Thankyou for the advice. Theres a lot about the military. So, Im going to spend the next 2-3 years doing some thorough research and speaking to some military pilots to make sure its 110% for me. I also need to make sure I agree with the ethics behind the forces. If I have any doubts about anything then I won't apply.

.......there is a good chance you will get killed or have to kill.Don't see it as a route to a commercial licence

I expected military pilots have to kill but how often do they really get killed? The harrier gr9 alone costs 500 million to make so surely these planes cannot be getting destroyed on a regular basis? Or am I being naive again? Please correct me if I am.

(assuming you haven't already) Get yourself a nice degree totally un-related to aviation which makes you a professional in something. It's always good to have something you can fall back on! Yeah, it'll add about 20K to your debts but who knows, the better jobs you'll be able to get because of it may offer you more in remuneration in the long run.

After reading several posts on this forum, I noticed aspiring young pilots are constantly being advised to study for a degree in a subject un-related to aviation. However, if I gained a degree in aviation technology with pilot studies, then surely there are other good careers in the aviation industry to fall back if my commercial airline career was unsuccessful? At least this way I'll still have a career in an subject area have a MASSIVE interest in....aviation.

Continue to take criticism so well on these forums. I admire your calm forum manner!

Cheers! Ive learnt from past experience that hostility and insolence gets you know where.

[Deep_stall]

"So, Im going to spend the next 2-3 years doing some thorough research and speaking to some military pilots to make sure its 110% for me"

I haven't checked it for a while but notice the RAF have now raised their age limit to 25. Assuming your age on your PPRUNE account is correct this won't leave you with much time to get yourself in - bearing in mind that this age is when you must be in IOT and there can be up to a years wait between a successful application and commencement of IOT.

With several close friends in the military - my advice would be think very carefully before applying. The military isn't a job. It's a way of life. As a military pilot you are an officer first and a pilot second. You can expect to spend as much time on the ground doing secondary duties/adventure training etc as you can strapped to your aircraft. If you want to spend your career sat in an aeroplane then go down the civi route. If you are an outdoors and active person then perhaps the military is the right road to go down.

One line you wrote does worry me;
"I expected military pilots have to kill but how often do they really get killed? The harrier gr9 alone costs 500 million to make so surely these planes cannot be getting destroyed on a regular basis? Or am I being naive again? Please correct me if I am."

At 22 the RAF will expect you to have a keen interest in current affairs and their operations, this shows a severe lack in your overall understanding of the risks of a flying career - particularly in the military. Every pilot puts their life on the line every time they fly. An unavoidable bird strike can bring down a 777 just as easily as an RPG can bring down a Chinook. Yes frontline flying will increase the risks in a big way but you need to show you have your eyes open as to what you are going to be risking.Pilots don't have to be on the front line to run the risk of being killed. This has sadly been proven several times this year. When you are talking about signing up to a job where you may well be in a position where you have to kill somebody, watch a friend be killed, or be killed yourself, you can't really afford to be naive. Some people may not think about it on a day to day basis - I'd imagine that many people don't (the same as we get in a car every day and simply expect to arrive at point B without rolling the car onto it's roof and killing an innocent family in the process) but it is important that you are aware of what might happen as likely or unlikely as it is.

Sorry about the long winded post! As to what you decide to do -only you can decide what is best for you, you might choose to follow some advice from here but ultimately the decision has to be yours. You never know until you try and all that. :ok:I wish you the best of luck in whatever decision you make.

[T5 Mole]

I expected military pilots have to kill but how often do they really get killed? The harrier gr9 alone costs 500 million to make so surely these planes cannot be getting destroyed on a regular basis? Or am I being naive again? Please correct me if I am.
A few crew of some Nimrods, Hercules, Chinooks, Lynx, Jaguars and Tornados may differ with you. That is, if they were here today to do so.

Fatal accidents are thankfully rare, but they are certainly not as rare as operating a modern, commercial jet from A to B.

Google is your friend - have a look at the losses seen in the past 10 years alone.

However, if I gained a degree in aviation technology with pilot studies, then surely there are other good careers in the aviation industry to fall back if my commercial airline career was unsuccessful?
Problem is that all the professions in aviation that it would allow you to work in are cyclical with flying itself. Thus, no jobs in one = no jobs in many other aviation fields.

If you heart is set solely on aviation and you have the financial means, a degree is unecessary (but should still be considered if you want the experience and the chance to stretch you mind at some universities).

I think some people above are being a little fanciful that people do not use the military as a means to get into aviation that they could not otherwise achieve by other means. In the not so distant past, the RAF offered short service commissions, and fully intended to train people fully only to let them return to the civilian world. Of course, times change, and morally the training costs a great deal. The elephant in the room is of course the fact that people joining the military do indeed join solely to fly (whatever the RAF want), and do indeed leave in large numbers at their 16/38 point, or PVR earlier.

One would not be wise, however, to admit to such a strategy, even if it is logical.

[corsair]

I know a number of folk that were not British but came from Commonwealth countries who served, and are serving, in the British Armed forces. Matt V is correct you have to be British since birth to be accepted as aircrew/pilot. This is apparently for security clearance reasons. This doesn't apply to other trades or roles whether officer or enlisted. But essentially to become a pilot you must be British since birth. This also applies to the Navy but not as far as I know to the Air Corps.

Having said that you will note there are two New Zealanders in the Red Arrows. They however were fast jet pilots before they came to the RAF. So there are exceptions.

[funkyt111]

Well....RAF crashes don't appear to be that rare at all. I stumbled across this document...

http://www.tornado-data.com/Production/RAF%20Crash%20Data.pdf

When you are talking about signing up to a job where you may well be in a position where you have to kill somebody, watch a friend be killed, or be killed yourself, you can't really afford to be naive.Very much agreed. However I have no intention of applying for 2-3 years and as Ive said above I know for certain i'll be just as (if not more) prepared than the guy next to me. Its obvious that going into any one of the armed forces, you have to know there is a higher risk of being killed than any other career. To not think this would not be naive...it would damn right stupid.

If I 110% decided that the RAF/NAVY was for me then the risk of being killed would not influence my decision.

I haven't checked it for a while but notice the RAF have now raised their age limit to 25. Assuming your age on your PPRUNE account is correct this won't leave you with much time to get yourself in - bearing in mind that this age is when you must be in IOT and there can be up to a years wait between a successful application and commencement of IOT.I spoke with the RAF careers office recently and they explained that you have to be IOT before your 26th birthday. As for the navy, you have to be IOT before your 27th birthday.

Deep stall,.

"The long winded" reply was very informative and appreciated. So don't worry ;)

T5 Mole,

I was 90% applying to leeds univesity, liverpool university and salford university to study aviation tech with pilot studies. It appears now this may not be the best thing to do! I am now currently left in a dilemma and have some serious thinking to do and fast! Time isn't on my side!

Thanks for the replys guys.

Hopefully soon, I can speak with some RAF/NAVY pilots face to face. :)

[LookingUpInHope]

While at Uni, whatever you're studying, join the University Air Squadron (or whatever they're calling it these days). You'll soon find out whether you're fit for the RAF and by extension the other Forces. Either way, make your mind up and do it fast, or the opportunities will have passed you by and with some opportunities there are no second chances.

I developed stereoscopic vision this summer. At 32, it's come far too late for me to even think about join Her Majesty's Flying Club. The idea that my not having done so is because I was just not trying hard enough is a real slap in the face, given that flying was all I ever wanted to do from the first time I looked up. I will learn, I will fly, even if it takes me another thirty years - but I'll be paying for it with money rather than with service.

[funkyt111]

ligibility

To join a UAS you will become a member of the RAF Volunteer Reserve (RAF(VR)). Membership entitles you to fly in military aircraft and requires that you satisfy age, education and nationality requirements. Such requirements are:

1. Older that 17.5 years on joining and younger than 23.5 years on graduation.
2. An undergraduate with 2 A-levels or equivalent studying for a full-time degree with 2 academic years remaining before graduation.
3. A British National (or dependent territory).
4. Taller than 5'6" (if female) and shorter than 6'2"

There are also various other medical requirements that applicants must satisfy - for more information about these either contact the Squadron or ask at the Freshers Fayre.

I noticed it says you need to be younger than 23.5 years on graduation? Do you think this has not been updated yet since the max age of the airfoce has now gone up to 25 years or??

Also, how does the air squadron work? Does it have relationships with all the forces or just the RAF?

Regards

Funky

[Parson]

It is possible to fly way beyond 40 in the military, I believe

[funkyt111]

thanx for the reply but thats not what I asked :confused:

[Luke SkyToddler]

When you go up for RAF assessment you have to understand you are competing against people who have been focused on it since they were in nappies, been eating living breathing it as their sole ambition all their growing lives, done all the gliding and air training corps and every single forces lead-in club for youngsters like it was religion, been drilled in the way to get through the selection for years and probably already got a parent in the job. And not just a few of them, there are hundreds of them. And they are good - really good. Hands down the best ab initio students I ever flew with were the RAF Flying Scholarship cadets I taught back in the instructing days, of which several hundred cadets were selected each year and only a very small handful would ever make fast jet. The selection people can spot someone with commercial-airline aspirations from a thousand paces away.

And after all that - you are a SOLDIER first and a pilot very much second, don't kid yourself that it's anything other than what it is.

Save yourself the heartache and go buy tickets in the euro millions lottery mate, it's a more viable plan than your current one.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Thank you for saving me the trouble Luke.

Whilst I encourage you to try to join the UAS be aware that you are up against people desperate to join who have been planning, arranging and preparing for the last decade and longer.

By asking:

Also, how does the air squadron work? Does it have relationships with all the forces or just the RAF?


You're making them wince; then sneer.

Do apply though.

You may be just the ticket and often they do look the find people that they otherwise would not. Whereas I was sponsored through A-levels and Uni as a RAF pilot and placed in UAS I have good friends who were not any of those things but now fly Typhoons. Really.

Its brusque but its true to say you have very little chance of succeeding with a military flying career.

Good luck - a hell of a lot more fun than the procedural Alicante arrival but a lot less well paid and a hell of a lot more dangerous.. Now in my 30's with children I wouldn't want to be a military pilot and I'm glad it didn't work out for me. As a route to commercial airline flying its a really really sh1te one that asks so much and gains you so little. The established wisdom espoused by most is woefully out of kilter with the modern airline recruitment practice.

Times change. Fast.


WWW


WWW

[funkyt111]

Luke SkyToddler and Wee Weasley Welshman..... (http://www.pprune.org/members/5812-luke-skytoddler)

Whilst your advice is appreciated, is it impossible for you to reply without the repetitive negativity? WWW, I see that your very knowledgeable in your profession. However, I'm sure a lot of wannabes would appreciate your comments a lot more without the arrogance in your posts...This isn't an insult. Its just something I've noticed constantly throughout a lot of your posts..

People have said many times on this topic that it is unlikely that I will get be pass the selection for the RAF. Ive taken that on board. You don't have to keep re-enforcing what they have said. Also, I've said many MANY times that applying through the military is not a way of gaining a commerical airline career. Its one OR the other. I'm just a little undecided which route to take.

Luke SkyToddler....

A lot of the comments you have made my mother has also made. Why should the RAF choose me over somebody that has shown an interest there whole lives etc. Well your right. However, do you mean to tell me that people who have shown an interest in the RAF in early adulthood have never been selected??
Also i was in the cadets for a period of time when I was younger and my father was in the RAF. Not a pilot but as an aircraft engineer. Unfortunately he passed away when I was 11. Maybe my interest would started at a younger age if he were still alive.

Save yourself the heartache and go buy tickets in the euro millions lottery mate, it's a more viable plan than your current one.

You're making them wince; then sneer.

Is there really any need for the sarcastic, patronising comments? Or is it something you guys cannot help? :confused: You ruin your posts my doing so...

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

What you fail to account for is that I respond to your post so as to address a wider readership. You're just a passing piece of flotsam that allows me to talk about the issue of wannabes thinking the military is a viable route to being an airline pilot.

Anyway. Your specific points about arrogance, insult and negativity are fatally undermined by my comments


Do apply though.

You may be just the ticket and often they do look the find people that they otherwise would not. Whereas I was sponsored through A-levels and Uni as a RAF pilot and placed in UAS I have good friends who were not any of those things but now fly Typhoons. Really.

Its brusque but its true to say you have very little chance of succeeding with a military flying career.



If you think its arrogant of me to explain how I failed to become an RAF pilot but have friends like you who did not fail then you need to recalibrate your arroganominameter...


WWW

[funkyt111]

Like I said, I did say your post is appreciated and I thankyou for sharing your experience of how you failed to become an RAF pilot. But sometimes your posts come across insulting and arrogant and I'm sure a lot of people would agree with me...

However, sometimes posts can be mis-interpreted.... Anyway, im not on these forums to argue. I just wanted some advice.

You say to me
you wouldn't be selected

But please tell me how you can make this judgement through a few posts on the forums? Is it because I am not knowledgeable on the military? If this is the case, then this is something that can be improved. You have no knowledge of my intelligence, academic achievement etc. Like I said in my post above, are you telling me, that the RAF have NEVER selected people who have opted for a military pilot career in early adulthood?

On exactly which part of the RAF selection did you fail on? (if you don't mind me asking)

[Torque Tonight]

You have nothing to lose by applying. In fact, attending OASC, even if you are rejected, may be a very valuable experience.

People on PPrune often advocate joining the RAF as a means to becoming an airline pilot. This is quite simply wrong. A candidate will not succeed unless they are 100% dedicated to a military career. Primarily, an individual who is aspiring to a career beyond the RAF and sees the RAF as merely a stepping stone, will not stand up to the rigours and hardships of training and military life. Secondly, recruiters will sniff out such people a mile off.

WWW is being harsh but fair. The standard of selection and training is exceptionally high and brutally competetive. Those who think one day 'I know, I'll be an RAF pilot', stand little chance against those whose knowledge, commitment, motivation and ability is flawless. Don't be discouraged, but be under no illusion just how high the standard is. I believe that something like one in five thousand initial applicants will make it to a frontline squadron. The figures may not be exact but that's the order of magnitude we're talking about. In training for my commercial licences, I didn't break a sweat. I have never been as stressed as I was during RAF flying training.

Unfortunately, to pick up on another point, every military pilot knows pilots who have been killed and many more who have had lucky escapes. The RAF is NOT just another FTO for the airlines.

[funkyt111]

Torque...

Thankyou for your response.

First of all, I don't know how many times I have to say this. BUT I do not see the military as a stepping stone to becoming a commercial airline pilot. Its one or the other. Once I have done some thorough research for a good year or 2 then I will decide whether the military is for me. But I guarantee. If I opt for a career in the military, then I will be 110% sure it is for me. If not. I won't apply..

Don't be discouraged, but be under no illusion just how high the standard is. I believe that something like one in five thousand initial applicants will make it to a frontline squadron.

Is it this hard for all officer careers in the RAF or just pilots? If it is a figure similar to 1 in 5000 applicant then you have to remember that the a large amount of these applicants will not be prepared and some of them will just one day think "hmmmm I wouldn't mind flying them fast planes. They look awesome in topgun" :)

[mr ripley]

funky,

I have been on the recruiters course. Despite what might have posted, OASC are after a substantiated interest in the RAF. You don't have to have been a cadet or dreaming/planning your career for years. On the other hand nor should you have applied on a 'that seems like a larf' whim. What you should do is substatiate your interest. You can do that in months. It the same thing you do when you apply for a good job at a big company. You prove that you know what you are applying for and why, getting out and about visiting stations off your own back, research, learn and generally get a feel for the job. Pprune can give you some pointers, but you should pick and choose your advice then be prepared for some serious work.

Despite assurances time is not on your side. Good luck.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

You're clearly pissed off that I am willing to hold the opinion and write it on the internet that you will not be selected.

You won't be. I don't need to know you or anything about you that isn't already evident. You're an earnest young man who aspires to a career in commercial aviation but is now aware of the alternative career of RAF pilot.

The odds are thousands to one. You've not made the best start against others who will be on your selection board. You're not going to get selected.

You might. But you won't.

Nothing would give me greater pleasure than in 2014 to receive a rude and abusive email from you with a picture of your Wings Parade attached. I'd hope that my bluntness spurred you to achieve the very very very difficult.

But you won't be selected.

WWW

[bigjarv]

Brilliant!!!!