Christmas in Seeb

[Sideshow Bob]

I'm sure you'd all like to know that we had a wonderfull christmas here in our delux tent city. The CO shut the bar for an indefinate period on christmas day due to there being a few parties on christmas eve. The nice admin chaps organised a nice party at a local hotel (Novotel) for us but of corse we all had to stump up 4 rails each to pay for it. Not only that but they let the cateering to the cheapest bidder so half the camp now has the s**ts and the place smells worse than usual. Merry Bl**dy Christmas, I can't wait for the new year!!!

[ 28 December 2001: Message edited by: Sideshow Bob ]</p>

[uncle peter]

festive greetings to all in BFOT. received an email on xmas day with all the details of moral suppression. heard that bar was closed because there was a bit of noise and a few cans were seen inside BFOT!

generally speaking my mates inside are threaders with the intransigence in improving conditions. they do not need bo$$ocking over their own efforts to improve moral.

if i were the co i'd stir my tea myself.

[kippermate]

Merry Christmas to all in the desert. <img src="cool.gif" border="0">

[D-IFF_ident]

What's the BFPO address out there? I'm sure something can be done to at least improve morale. Op addresses aren't restricted are they?

[General41]

How's our resident IntO, Kenny, doing? Has he caused any trouble. Because he did when he left Colt to go there!!!!!

Anyway, all i can say is whatever you guys n girls do have a great new year bash!!!

[goldcup]

Christmas meal was in the Novotel, which I believe has a less than sparkling reputation for providing in flight- several crews have allegedly come a cropper after partaking. So no surprise that the blunties didn't research this. Looks like they went to the nearest hotel and struck a "deal."

On a brighter note, for all those still in theatre: apparently the Safari Bar gives you 15% off if you show your ID. And for those fortunate enough not to be working over New Year, the do at Trader Vic's looks good. At least there you'll be safe from the massive over-reaction that is bound to occur when someone has a drink somewhere other than the bar...

D-IFF_ident- the BFPO is 767- not classified. Or if it is, the little old lady at my local post office is a spy.

General41- if only there were some girls here...

[SandyCrevice]

I wasn't aware of the 15% off in the safari bar when I was there. However, the safari bar does have the best happy hour (7-8), where unlike the intercont, the drinks are half price.

[oldgit47]

North Wilts MP James Gray, has posted questions in the house to Buff on both the suitability of tent city for long term operations, and the question of LOA. I will keep you posted on the answers. The last 2 transit crews have again claimed LOA on the grounds that the "substantial welfare package", ie phone cards, internet and laundry are not available to us. Will let you all know if we win. If we don't, my next course of action will be to sue the air farce for it. Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to all in tent city. No doubt will see you all again in Jan.

[what checks?]

...oh dear, has some one upset the hostess trolley? What a lot of moaning over what amounts to very little. It actually sounds like quite a reasonable camp site compared to some of those that I have experienced recently. It couldn't be the fact that it is just worse than normal?

Some of the allownaces issues are a farce however. As in FRY a few years ago:

Harrier mate = Italy, hire car, hotel, rates
RAF Helicopter = Croatia, only allowed off camp in pairs until 10 pm, no spirits (booze), no money
AAC = Bosnia, nowhere you'd ever want to go out, 2 (ish) can rule, 6 months no money

...and if you came from Germany they kindly reduced your LOA while you were away and there was no LSSA then!

No, I am not in the Army. No, the Air Force attitude does not impress me. <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

[stbd beam]

"I had that morning gone to say my farewells to Broadhurst and to the RAF. I had made a point of going to HQ at Schleswig in my 'Grand Charles'. Coming back I had taken him high up in the cloudless summer sky, for it was only there that I could fittingly take my leave.

Together we climbed for the last time straight towards the sun. We looped once, perhaps twice, we lovingly did a few slow, meticulous rolls, so that I could take away in my finger-tips the vibration of his supple, docile wings.
And in that narrow cockpit I wept, as I shall never weep again, when I felt the concrete brush against his wheels and, with a great sweep of the wrist, dropped him on the ground like a cut flower.

As always, I carefully cleared the engine, turned off all the switches one by one, removed the straps, the wires and the tubes which tied me to him, like a child to his mother. And when my waiting pilots and my mechanics saw my downcast eyes and my shaking shoulders, they understood and returned to the dispersal in silence.

Pierre Clostermann, 'The big show,' 1951".

(Grand Charles is his Typhoon)

AND THEN HE WENT BACK TO HIS STINKY TENT, HAD THE LIGHTS TURNED OUT ON HIM AT 2300 AND LOOKED FORWARD TO ANOTHER DAY, BATTLING AGAINST THE BLUNTIES ONCE MORE.

[jockspice]

what checks
you forgot the junglies in FRY
built their own bar
invited everyone else round
had a really smashing time
woke up the next morning
rebuilt the bar
carried on again

repeat for about 8 years :)

what f8cking loa? becks was only 30p <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

joking aside - all the best to the guys out there - you would think those in charge could get it right for once during the festive season <img src="frown.gif" border="0">

[ 28 December 2001: Message edited by: jockspice ]</p>

[oldgit47]

What checks? live in squalor , no alternative, no problem. Live forever at the end of Heathrow airport (Muscat) because some theiving fuc£wit has decided to allow the treasury to save money. You think this is clever? You stupid, sad, incompetent bast$ard.

[PNVS]

Beagle or feeble or whatever, welcome to the real world. This is the world that has to choose between hotels at a £ucking squilion quid or proper kit for the poor sod Commando bod in theatre. (but he is probably shelling out for this himself). You cant raise flight safety because how and where will it end. My hotel air conditioning is making a noise we must upgrade to the Burj Al Arab then I will be ok. The bottom line is that we have to make the best from a bad lot. I suppose that when you say we ‘we demand that everyone is moved into decent accommodation.’ That is the aircrew? Or everyone? Fat chance.
oldgit47 the treasury doesn’t profit from the lack of spending from one part of the defence vote the rest of the Plc benefits.
P.S. Every one could be a little less rude with their remarks. Oh including me, sorry.

[Jackonicko]

Enormous sympathy for the hardships (maybe not great, short-term, but UNNECESSARY and counter-productive, and unacceptable) but I would point out that using the S**b word, or referring to O**n (as opposed to a 'Gulf nation' or somesuch) is something we journos aren't allowed to do, with D notices etc. We all know exactly what's where, natch, but 'host nation sensibilities' are apparently high on this one, and could become a stick with which PPR could be beaten.

[Sideshow Bob]

It may seem to some poeple out there that we are moaning because we have to live in an awful little tent (which isn't plesent when 6 of the crew have the S**ts). There is a big differance between a SH Helicopter sqn which is funded and trained to deploy into the field (Which I have worked on in the past) and a 4 engine jet Sqn which has been pitched into a tent at a camp at the side of a runway. A camp which is run with the full blunty back-up, including a SWO, OC Admin, OC Police, OC MT, the full works (we even have a Contract Management Team). Have you ever layed awake at 3 am in the morning listening to a VC10 start up not 400 yards from your tent and thought I've got an 8 hour sortie to do in 3 hour!!!

[ 29 December 2001: Message edited by: Sideshow Bob ]

[ 29 December 2001: Message edited by: Sideshow Bob ]</p>

[Mightycruseven]

Hey there Stbd beam

Pierre Closterman!!! Suns got to you hasn't it old chap, or are u trying to get sent home on mental grounds? How's the digs? I hope you are taking care of our sunflowers....how they gettin on? What about the new Melchit....doing ok I hear. Did you find ma wee nest 'o friendly spiders I left under my/your bed!!!!! Hope Christmas was better than what everyone was makin out, but I suppose I shouldn't count on those blunties gettin it right for the boys!!! (I'm not taring all with same brush though.)

All the best dude and Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to u all.

Mighty.

[uncle peter]

pnvs - a quick question. how utterly distraught would your family be if (god forbid) you were on board the mighty 3* and then something catastrophic happens which is directly attributable to chronic fatigue?

although i agree conditions should be improved across the board, when you are directly responsible for hundreds of pax it is not churlish to expect the environment and support to accomplish this safely.

what concerns me and several others is the fact, as stated by beags, that the orders designed to legislate as to what is and what is not safe, accepted practice, are being flouted. however, if something does happen, these flouted regulations will then be used by the spineless ones to devolve all responsibility on to the crew.

flight safety is and always has been paramount. if you ever travel as pax i am sure you dont want your captain to pitch up bleary eyed having had 3 hours sleep. do you think we have a point?

[Governormalfunction]

There appears to be a lot of moaning and groaning going on here, you obviously take the Queens shilling every month. If you ain't happy with your lot..................pull the black and yellow. Don't just gob off, move on.

[oldgit47]

I agree with uncle peter. The spineless ones should at least have the guts to "ammend" the appropriate Gaso's. That would take responsibility for the mistakes of tired aircrew from the shoulders of the crew / authorisor and place it firmly on their own. That would take "moral courage". Will it happen? Fat chance.

[Ralf Wiggum]

Merry Christmas to all in the sunnier climes.

Please don't expect too much sympathy when you preach flight safety in one breath and then complain that you cannot get sh*t faced in the next breath. Terrorists do not close shop for Christmas and missions do not stop for it either.

I would genuinely want to see all my RAF colleagues put up in better conditions, but whinging just upsets everyone, especially our Army counterparts who put up with more sh*t than you ever will. Now contructive criticism backed up by playing the game (e.g. Not whinging about bars being closed - I've had months of that in some OOAs) could get you somewhere.

[BEagle]

Have to agree with the comments regarding EtOH abuse!

In 1991 the amount of illegally imported alcohol being drunk in Saudi Arabia was frankly scandalous; some crews nearly didn't make the first night as they were off to a "It didn't happen" party at a certain expat communications company. 'Room parties' were held by certain pi$$-heads who twisted the security cameras away so that no-one would see what was going on - these were attended by some of quite senior rank. One night my co-pilot staggered into our room, threw up on the carpet and into the sink, he was so drunk. The next day I found someone more sensible to fly with - if you can't lay off the pop for a few weeks (as you have to on Q in the Malvinas), then go and see a quack about your habit. Bleating about the bar being shut deserves no sympathy whatsoever. Sorry.

[ 09 January 2002: Message edited by: BEagle ]</p>

[Yozzer]

Sideshow Bob said:

There is a big differance between a SH Helicopter sqn which is funded and trained to deploy into the field........

<img src="mad.gif" border="0"> <img src="mad.gif" border="0"> <img src="mad.gif" border="0"> <img src="mad.gif" border="0"> <img src="mad.gif" border="0"> <img src="mad.gif" border="0">

Sympaphy, Steer window: Enter!

The SH mates just get on with it, and yes we winge, but for too long we have made do with 5h1t whilst the "others" have "made do" with their air conditioned hotels. We are far from immune to winging, but try kipping next to a Chinook at 3 am when you are up in a few hours for a 7 hour day. My heart bleeds purple stuff.

Yozzer

[propulike]

Hmmm. If it's all the same to you I'd rather not try to kip next door to any aircraft that's starting up.

But if that's your bag, I know a detachment you really ought to try and get on.

Merry Christmas and New Year to all.

[Yozzer]

Tantrum over, and being away from family and friends at this time of year is a bummer for anyone regardless of accomodation or living conditions. A tent next to a flight line does not do it for me either, but better than the junglies in their bivvy bags under trees with the cotton mouths and chiggers (P/Star`96)

You cannot be "trained" to operate efficiently after disturbed sleep and an acceptance that SH boys can; gripped ones poo for a moment. No flight crew regardless of role should be placed in this position unless there is NO alternative, and frequently that decision is based upon cost, which IMHO is a large word with 2 "L"s in it.

Happy New Year to you and yours

Yozzer

[Sideshow Bob]

Ralf Wiggums, Alcohol Abuse was not the issue here, as all flying had been suspended for the next two days, the issue is moral. It isn't very pleasant being away from your family at this time of year (I should know, out of 7 years of marrage, I've managed 3 christmases at home). Yosser, beening trained to operate without sleep is impossible, but as I know from my time on SH, you are trained to operate from field conditions, we are not. You are kitted to operate from field conditions, we are not. The only training I recieved after my three days notice to deploy was a 1 hour lecture from our friendly Rocks at Ice station Kilo. By the way our normal working day is 12 hours, 16 hours if we take on gas. Not very pleasant after 3 hours sleep.

[ 30 December 2001: Message edited by: Sideshow Bob ]</p>

[Art Field]

Woah folks, trading insults is not going to help anybodies case. One point which might come home to those that should care is that Flight Safety is not the only issue here. Operational effectiveness is undoubtedly affected. It was noticeable during the Falklands do that, after about three weeks in theatre, people were definitely down and finding it more difficult to concentrate. Confidence was affected as well and the accomodation was certainly a strong factor there.
Whilst a posh hotel is nice all one really needs is a comfortable and quiet place to rest ones weary body. It may well be a tent, in the right place, or a bunk somewhere but good rest is essential. One other point, where do the medics stand in all this? have they been involved?.

[Yozzer]

Art Field said:

One other point, where do the medics stand in all this? have they been involved?.

You may not believe this but it is absolutely true. In the Emerald toilet a few years ago they had an Aviation medicine group which consisted of the SMO and a rep from each squadron. Quite a powerful body it was and shaky old beds at the Fwd Op bases got changed or tightened. Late dinners and microwaves were provided, such luxury

Disruptive sleep patterns are a fact of life in NI, and eventually it can and usually does wear you down. Especially when working 21 consecutive days (wot weekends?). The answer from the SMO which he allowed immediatly was issued Tamazapan. Now short term I am all for that, but 2 years worth??

What really grips my goat on the origins of this thread, is that I will bet that a resonable standard of living is available within a resonable distance, and Aunty Betty will not pay for it. ....and when it becomes a UN issue, where do the UN coppers go to? I feel a Condor moment coming on from afar <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

Yozzer

[D-IFF_ident]

Didn't we do this one before?

[ 11 January 2002: Message edited by: D-IFF_ident ]</p>

[oldgit47]

Art, My original Condor on Thumrait was copied through the SMO to Av Med and the Command medics. This was posted 27 Sep. I havn't heard a thing from anyone.

[3m Strop Carrier]

PNVS, people wouldnt mind if everybody that needs the kit got it, and not just the stackers. As an SH guy we cant even get the issue kit let alone the gucci stuff. Most of us have spent over a grand each just making ourselves comfortable. Having been abandoned by our lords and masters, because we worked for the UN at the time, when a previous particular poor campsite flooded, , I therefore agree with BEagle comments. Theres no problem with are forces doing the job, but give us the equipment / portable accom similar to the the yanks.

[D-IFF_ident]

Please See:

<a href="http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/legaff/mann8-3.html" target="_blank">http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/legaff/mann8-3.html</a>

And:

<a href="http://www.airdisaster.com/news/0100/29/news.shtml" target="_blank">http://www.airdisaster.com/news/0100/29/news.shtml</a>

And:

<a href="http://www.airdisaster.com/news/1199/18/news3.shtml" target="_blank">http://www.airdisaster.com/news/1199/18/news3.shtml</a>

<a href="http://www.ntsb.gov/speeches/ve990803.htm" target="_blank">http://www.ntsb.gov/speeches/ve990803.htm</a>

[ 11 January 2002: Message edited by: D-IFF_ident ]</p>

[Sideshow Bob]

sideshow bob, always remember to log out when posting on a shared computer. good job i'm such a nice guy.

[D-IFF_ident]

<a href="http://www.airdisaster.com/cgi_bin/view_details.cgi?date=11201969&airline=Nigeria+Airways" target="_blank">http://www.airdisaster.com/cgi_bin/view_details.cgi?date=11201969&airline=Nigeria+Airways</a>

[ 11 January 2002: Message edited by: D-IFF_ident ]</p>

[BEagle]

Don't forget that there are appropriate methods of improving your crew rest if you have reason to believe that you may be required to spend your CRP in an environment which may make rest difficult for you. Before throwing your teddies too far, just check your GASOs for the pertinent regulations and consult a UMO if you need clarification.

If after all that you have had difficulty achieving CRP, perhaps it might be best to go and chat to your boss first before leaping into Route Stage Report or Condor print. He will very probably support your view to higher authority if he's sufficiently convinced by your experience - or indeed give you a clearer view of things about which you may not be aware - but he can only help to improve matters if he's told about the genuine problems, rather than inconsequential inconveniences, which you may have encountered. Don't forget that he wants his team to succeed - and that we're all on that very same team!

[To Baldly Go]

Operating in less than ideal circumstances is something we must all be prepared to do in an Operational Theatre, if operationally necessary. It is right and proper for concerns to be aired through the appropriate chain of command or using the confidential reporting devices. However, when recourse to normal methods has no result and when people are treated like mushrooms, can anyone be suprised by the resultant 'whingeing'. I know that the commanders are aware of the problems - I want to know what is being done about them!

[divingduck]

To all those living in tents off the side of the runway...

Top job lads (and lasses)!

ps the driver who got the L101 off the runway after rejecting the other day...good job, that could have bu**ered us up for quite some time.

pps have a drink at the Gulf Hotel....much cheaper than the Intercon or the Hyatt, mind you so is Feeneys bar in the Howard Johnson.

cheers

[Mick Stability]

You guys have my deepest sympathy. The rationale behind proper crew rest and accommodation for aircrew is something that has been in established in commercial aviation for a long time. In an environment where beancounters try to chase even the smallest in savings, even they realise that it's conterproductive to have the pilots in charge of your multi million dollar assets fatigued because you put them in a tent.

I wish you every success in your battle with the blunties. I did the Gulf War, and it was mind boggling the amount of Rear Echelon Mother Fu &lt;transfer interrupted&gt; that ended up in theatre doing SLJ's. Save billions by closing the MOD, High Wycombe, and shooting anyone without a brevet.

I know know why I left. It's not brilliant out here, but I don't have to put up with that CRA? and neither should you. The US forces don't do this to their warriors, and there's no excuse for the UK Armed Forces to do it to you. I salute you.

[Loreto]

<a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/selby/story/0,7369,631354,00.html" target="_blank">http://www.guardian.co.uk/selby/story/0,7369,631354,00.html</a>


"You either actually knew or could be expected to have known from feelings of sleepiness that you were experiencing that you were at risk of falling asleep and, notwithstanding that, you carried on."

[EESDL]

Oldgit47
You may be interested to know that they are pulling the 'seven days in theatre before you can get a phone card' gag here in Southern Oman ****hole aswell. Here, however, they have decreed that you are then entitled to LOA if you are transitting.....regulations say so....which means the precedent has been set. I've got a month of'nights' to track the copy down.
You'll like this one...trekking around camp 'arriving' went to all the sections for the important stamp, couldn't get into the Deployed Admin Group because they had closed for lunch!!!

[stablepowerset]

Its Ok the admin people are on our side!!! they did bust a gut to get the gennie fixed in 1 of the BFOT's only took them 5 days before it was sorted out!!!!! whoever sorted out that contract was obviously thinking about saving money, the unit that was working in the tent next door was running at 5% of its total output!!! could have run the whole bloody camp in fact.
Not whinging tho! the job still got done and there are people still living in worse accom! so think myself lucky really. As for crew rest didnt worry anybody about having a fire drill when crews are sposed to be sleeping, then again it sounded like an air raid siren not a fire bell so stayed in bed anyhow!!! put my tin hat and resp on tho so i was safe!!!
Had a bloody good time when can i go again?