TSA Waivers

[hawker750]

TSA Waivers
Questions probably for our colleagues in the USA

We currently have a G reg Hawker based in California. It is there purely for the owners personal use. He may wake up in the morning and phone the crew and say "I want to go to Denver this afternoon and onto Mexico tomorrow." To the TSA waiver people I have spoken to, they feel that this is an unreasonable thing for the owner to want to do and that he should plan his travel 7 days in advance!

1/ What is the best way to have valid TSA waivers in place to cover all eventualities
and possibilities? We used to have an annual blanket waiver but they no longer
issue these.

2/ Even if we were to put dummy TSA waiver requests in, the owner never knows
who will be travelling with him until the day of travel. How can the passenger
manifest be updated say 2 hours prior to take off without having to submit a
new request?

3/ How do "N" reg on demand Air Taxis cope? are are they exempt?

4/ One solution suggested is to have dummy waivers in place with dozens of
possible destinations and a "probable/possible" passenger manifest posted and if
the passenger list changes simply ignore it. If that is the case surely the whole
point of the TSA waiver program is lost. (It does say on the web site "bringing
safety to America's skies")

5/ If we were to operate a domestic flight within the USA without a valid waiver
who and how is any one going to find out and if they do what are the penalties?

I do not need to point out that N reg aircraft operating privately in Europe do not
have these hassles, so I really would appreciate some constructive advise from people who really know the system.

Thanks
Hawker 750

[Celestar]

Yep, we all face the same problem.
Get as many city-pairs and passengers as possible on your waiver and send a fax to TSA with additional details in case of last minute flight not covered by your current waiver.
You won't get a reply from them quickly enough but that's the only way I can think of. At least you have advised them, better than nothing.
Penalties I don't know but I wouldn't mess with those guys.
We are now obliged to spend fortunes in lawyers fees in order to find our way through their never ending requirements and approvals.

US operators don't have indeed this kind of problems here, it's more than unfair as we can't offer same flexibility to our customers.

[hawker750]

Celestar
Thanks for that. Anyone from the US care to comment?

[411A]

Anyone from the US care to comment?

Why, certainly, at your service.
The answer is.... Flight Planning and Flight Support Services by Universal Weather and Aviation, Inc. (http://www.univ-wea.com/home.html)
These folks do it all for you...all you have to do is pay their fee, which, all things considered, is quite reasonable.

IE: quality is remembered long after price is forgotten.

PS:
These folks were, at one time, Universal Airlines, one of the original 13 US supplemental air carriers...and they know their business, without a doubt.

Have I personally used 'em before?
Only for at least thirty years.

[dc9-32]

411A - time for a change then maybe and save yourself money and hassle :confused:

[411A]

time for a change then maybe and save yourself money and hassle:confused:

Not likely to change, so pay for eliminatimnhg the hassle.
Simple really.
And...if anyone (owner) with an expensive bizjet complains that the cost is too high....they had better sell the bird and take the bus.

[PicMas]

I see... You must pay a fee to a "company" for the privilege of leaving and entering the country, that makes perfect sense. You can not rely on the public servants of a liberal and democratic country to just do their job. Their harrasment of foreign vessles and their crew create business for another company...

I guess this is quite common in highly developed countries such as Nigeria, Bangladesh and the US.





Apologies:
1) For threaddrift
2) To Nigeria and Bangladesh

[balaton]

No use to go to US reg. To my knowledge they receive the same treatment returning to the US from a foreign place. Still very curious: how FAR 135 ops could operate in this enviroment?
(Recently completed a trip from LCPH to LOWW via Athens/Makedonia/Sofia/Belgrade/Budapest FIR's. The only requirement was a FPL filed in time. Through all these "difficult" countries. Remarkable! I just hope boss won't plan a X-mas dinner in The Big Apple.)

[Pilocol]

If you are 91 ... private for the use of the owner only DO NOT Need the waivers ... for flights within US ... File Flight Plan and go.
Said and signed by a TSA supervisor ... Waivers for NON N registered planes only to come IN and go OUT of the US, once you are inside ... go where you want ...IF ...IF you are operating private ... not for hire ...
Hope it helps ... we use to get this problem all the time ... finally got a straight answer from a TSA guy with a little bit of brain.
This is the way he explained it to me.
It is like your principal came in a car, once he clears all the paperwork for the entry, he is free to go wherever he wants ... clear enough ???
Other story if you are a charter (135) or Airline operated (121) ...

Keep it safe ..:ok:

[411A]

No use to go to US reg. To my knowledge they receive the same treatment returning to the US from a foreign place
Negative, totally incorrect.
US registered aircraft under 100,000 pounds MTOW, waivers are unnecessary for returning to the USA.
File via eAPIS on the internet for TSA/customs, and fly inbound.
No problems if done correctly.
IE: follow the plot, done deal.
Folks with Cessnas returning from Mexico and Canada do this all the time.
Note:
IF you are leaving the US for hunting with rifles, file Customs form 4457 (firearms registration) prior to departure, as to be able to show customs upon returning that you left with the same firearms.

NB.
And yes, there are those cheap folks who invite hassle by not using a handling agent with their very expensive bizjet...they then deserve all the problems that they receive because...I told you so.:rolleyes:

[500 above]

"These folks do it all for you...all you have to do is pay their fee, which, all things considered, is quite reasonable.

IE: quality is remembered long after price is forgotten."

Well, 411A, this is not the same Universal that I have used... Very costly, fabricate extra items on the bill such as hotac never even booked, cost me a 3 hour delay joining the NAT tracks, may work well in the States but certainly not in Europe, Middle Ease or Africa.

[411A]

...may work well in the States but certainly not in Europe, Middle Ease or Africa.
In actual fact, my experience with Universal in these places is quite the opposite.:}

[C-N]

I think a simple web search will return the official site for TSA processing. The site is comprehensive and has everything you need. Including the credit card payment section for your aircrafts sticker.

[hawker750]

Thanks all for the varied advise.

DC9-32's idea of N reg is no good as the the aircraft is only going to be there 4 months and the crew only have JAR licences although I guess they could get FAA ones if they had a spare evening.

Picmacs response of why pay? I agree, we have a competent OP's department and we operate the TSA waiver website without any problems. The problems we have is the time it takes, we can get a YA number out of India quicker than the TSA can react.

Thanks Pilocol. I had a suspicion that private ops for the owner were exempt but that is definately NOT what the TSA people told me.

A question for 411A as I have noted he has an enlightened view on most things aviation.
What is the point of the TSA waiver? I assume it is to deter/stop terrorist carrying out another terrible atrocity. If TSA is not needed for internal flights or N reg private flights coming in from abroad but only part 121/135 flights from abroad then surely the terrorists will just target an internal flight as they did for 911. Chartering an aircraft is easy. Our G reg Hawker has operated all over the States and not once have the crew or passengers been subjected to any sort of security, indeed most time the limo just drives up to the aircraft. The last time it came into the States from Canada, again there were zero security checks, no x ray of baggage or pax screening. So what is the point? I really do not think that a bunch of terrorists are going to name Mr B. Laden, Cave 6 Helman Province, Afganistan on their TSA manifest. I must have missed the point somewhere.

[411A]

What is the point of the TSA waiver?
Because, after 9-11, 'something' was seen to be needed to be done, whether it made sense, or not.
Therefore, the waiver program is a complete waste of time, and....I am told by those in the know, that it may well be eliminated in one or two years time, once the bugs are worked out of the eAPIS program. We shall see.
Having said this, the eAPIS program brings with it its own set of unique problems...detailed aircraft inspection prior to departure for a foreign destination, among them.

[hawker750]

411A
Quote
Having said this, the eAPIS program brings with it its own set of unique problems...detailed aircraft inspection prior to departure for a foreign destination, among them.

Have not had these problems with eAPIS, it has worked well for us, and I think only 60 minutes notice needed so change of pax list easy. No inspections either. Last time went from Santa Monica to Mexico, eAPIS would not allow us to nominate SMO as point of departure as it is not a border control airport. Contacting Border control they said no problem just say you are departing LAX but stipulate that you are actually at SMO, worked well. Well I say it worked well no one was arrested!