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beechbum
29th Sep 2009, 07:35
Good news according to said article. SAA posted a profit and ordered A330's for delivery in 2013.:ok::ok::ok::ok:
Fin24.com>>Companies>>SAA bucks the trend (http://www.fin24.com/articles/default/display_article.aspx?ArticleId=1518-24_2554822)

Ibhayi
29th Sep 2009, 11:16
Didn't SAA say that the A330 had the worst operating economics (for a multi aisle jet) out of JNB when they bought the A346/A343?

Avi8tor
29th Sep 2009, 11:24
Just as everybody else in the world will be getting A350's.

Why do I think the begging bowl will be out again soon?

Ibhayi
29th Sep 2009, 11:38
Which means there is no waiting list - SAA gets them when they want, secondly they will be cheap and coming when the A342s go.

Avi8tor
29th Sep 2009, 11:56
If SAA posted a profit, the tax payer should be re-paid....

NO, it normally means SAA will need help with cash flow soon. The begging bowl always comes out when SAA 'makes a profit'. Oh, not to mention the massive bonus somebody would have paid themselves.

Have the accounts been posted in the Sunday Times? Then you can see where the 'profits' come from. They may have revalued the assets or something. As they had fuel hedged at $135 a barrel for a big chunck of last yr, I suspect a bit of 'accounts gymnastics' is involved.

millertime
29th Sep 2009, 13:56
Ah Avi8tor, a negative SAA thread always brings you out of the woodwork! Welcome back we missed you and your advanced economics classes.

i-Robot
29th Sep 2009, 17:57
I suspect a bit of 'accounts gymnastics' is involved

No, only very good negotiating skills involved to break a deal with a manufacturer hard-pressed in the current global economic meltdown.

Renegotiating a lapsed agreement meant a return on impairment costs resulting in a substantial improvement in equity.

Now Avi8tor understands...

Avi8tor
30th Sep 2009, 08:07
Ah, I do so love when the peanut gallery goes personal when they run out of real argument.

Please do not try to deny SAA has had it's begging bowl out with the tax payer, for god knows how much money, in the last couple of yrs. Next you will be telling me about HIV not causing AIDS and the garlic cure.

Renegotiating a lapsed agreement meant a return on impairment costs resulting in a substantial improvement in equity. Sounds like accounts gym to me....:ok: I am interested how a deal signed in Sept 2009 would affect year ENDED March 2009 results? Now, I seem to remember passing Accounting1A....

A round of beers on the begging bowl coming out anybody?

kingpost
30th Sep 2009, 11:24
When most airlines around the world make a profit, SAA loses billions. The last year has to be one of the most challenging years in aviation, airlines are losing billions however SAA makes a profit, the biggest load of BS I have ever heard.

...Or, are they doing some creative accounting to show a profit and therefore sell off the airline after 2010... it may go down the same road that Olympic Airways followed!!

Capetonian
30th Sep 2009, 13:00
Creative accounting!

Years ago I attended an SAA luncheon for the travel trade. There were a couple of speeches by the top brass. One thick VdM announced that : "Whilst in the last quarter of last year we lost R55 million Rand, we are pleased that in the first quarter of this year, we can announce a deficit of R120 million Rand." I know it doesn't make sense, that is what he said.

I was sat next to a routes director, who told me that : "We are going to Honolulu for our holiday, we always go there, we like that part of the Caribbean."

Since those days, nothing has changed, the incompetence, nepotism, and inefficiency remain the same, just that those in charge are of a lower reflective index and have names like Nqula instead of van der Merwe.

TwinJock
30th Sep 2009, 13:03
Like clockwork, a profit is posted by SAA after a new CEO is appointed. If history is anything to go by, it is downhill from here onwards.

I agree with the creative accounting theory - the new aircraft order is surely proof of some "bargaining" by the FROGGS.

Another thread is that it seems as if SAA just can not get the fuel / currency hedging correct. If no hedging was done by SAA, they would have made a real profit. AV's currency hedging that went terribly wrong a couple of years ago springs to mind. Have tSAA's management ever hedged anything correctly!

FabFlyer
30th Sep 2009, 16:14
Aviator,

Please do not try to deny SAA has had it's begging bowl out with the tax payer

While I don't deny that SAA has received a fair amount of government assistance, I am just curious if you're still worried about it being YOUR tax money? I recall a similar post a while back where you mentioned that you still had interests in the country that helped fund SAA via your tax despite you living in the sandpit.

Are they still wasting your money or have you managed to divest yourself and are now just complaining as a matter of habit? :}

PS. No arguments about their creative accounting either.
PPS. I won't be taking you up on the round of beers. If I recall correctly the whole savings drive was done specifically to enable SAA to qualify for a recapitalisation loan.
PPPS. Garlic doesn't help but African potatoes do.

Avi8tor
30th Sep 2009, 18:22
Are they still wasting your money or have you managed to divest yourself and are now just complaining as a matter of habit?I am touched by your concern for my financial well being. :}

I am still a taxpayer in SA, I have income in the RSA. I also happen to be a voter, so I think I still qualify to have my 5c worth.

I hope then at least you will be joining my call for the total privitisation of SAA then, now its 'turned the corner'?

divinehover
1st Oct 2009, 14:40
All financial assistance provied to SAA by the Gov was in the form of loans or guarentee for loans and therefore has to paid back. So dear bitching Avi8tor your argument is factually flawed. I find it rather amusing that that chip on your shoulder is so big that you even whine when SAA makes a profit. You normaly only bitched about the negative stuff.

Cardinal Puff
1st Oct 2009, 14:56
What is this "pay back" of which you speak, Grasshopper?

Avi8tor
1st Oct 2009, 19:39
I find it rather amusing that that chip on your shoulder is so big I really find this HUGELY amusing, why would I have a chip on my shoulder, pray tell? Why do you get personal when you run out of arguement?

form of loans or guarentee for loans and therefore has to paid back When can I look forward to that happening? Why are you not joining my call for full privatisation of SAA if its doing so well?

Avi8tor
1st Oct 2009, 19:54
Fin24.com>>Companies>>SAA aims to avoid govt help (http://fin24.com/articles/default/display_article.aspx?Channel=News_Home&ArticleId=1518-24_2554874&IsColumnistStory=False)

This is a nice article. Kinda explains it all. A round of beers on the begging bowl?

divinehover
2nd Oct 2009, 03:42
Dear Avi8tor

I see you reside in Dubai. Does the company you work for pay market related prices for it's fuel out of Dubai? Is the CEO of your company also the Commisioner of Cival Aviation?

Don't let the fact that SAA didn't accept you ruin your whole life. It's just not worth.

dh

DH

four engine jock
2nd Oct 2009, 04:17
I totally agree. Privatize SAA. Let them play on the same field as all other airlines in SA. When you can’t pay your bills you don’t have big brother to run to as SAA always does.

Just my humble opinion .

TAVLA
2nd Oct 2009, 05:51
Level playing field???????? Then why doesn't Comair implement BEE as per the laws of the land.

DH and others. Don't bother replying to the anti-SAA trolls. These guys come up with the same *@#$ every time SAA gets mentioned (good or bad). NOTHING they say (irrespective of the number of times they say it) will ever make a difference to SAA, it's employees, its fleet, or the fruit vendor near the airport.

If bashing SAA gives them a sense of meaning and fulfilment then let them to their hearts content. Nothing said on PPRUNE, AfricaAviation, AVCOM etc. will ever have an effect on our lives.

Avi8tor
2nd Oct 2009, 07:22
Don't let the fact that SAA didn't accept you ruin your whole life. It's just not worth. Oh NO, my world has ended, I am not a skygod!!! The ego's of skygods are to behold and wonder.

Sorry, but you took the bait and walked straight into that one. :ok:

Don't bother replying to the anti-SAA trolls. Again, why get personal? And for the record, I am VERY pro-SA aviation. What I am anti is the total waste of tax payers money. SA has way bigger problems than supporting an a huge loss making national carrier.

If SAA was a real profit making business, it would be bigger, better and stronger than it is now. Why is pro free enterprise seen as being anti-SAA?

Capetonian
2nd Oct 2009, 07:43
I can see Cheryl Carolus doing a great job. She has the same qualifications as a lot of prominent people in SA these days.

On returning to South Africa she was arrested in January 1986 and detained at John Vorster Square for three weeks under emergency regulations.;
Good luck to her. Good luck to the airline.

Bergie
2nd Oct 2009, 09:49
Avi8tor - me thinks the desert may be getting to you. Don’t concern yourself too much with what’s happening down south. You made the decision to leave now live with it. I doubt very much that you contribute a whole lot to South Africa's revenue. Whether you like it or not, SAA plays an integral role in South Africa's economy. Sure there's problems and we are a work in progress, but when we start showing a turn around, rather withhold your negative 2 cents worth. One would think you have enough on your own plate to worry about…:ok:

four engine jock
2nd Oct 2009, 11:26
(and we are a work in progress,) How long will that take. Come on, the fish stinks from the head!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

SAA is a National Airline. Not suppose to show a profit. That why they belong to the Government (ANC)

There are a lot of great guys and gals at SAA and I am sure the ones that put a lot of negative stuff here wish they were at SAA.

Once more all ,Just my humble opinion!!!

divinehover
2nd Oct 2009, 12:58
Avi8tor

Two Q's once again.

1. Does your airline pay market related prices for it's fuel out of Dubai? If not how does this differ from the SA Gov guaranteeing SAA loans?

2. Is the CEO also the Comm of Civil Aviation?


Is this what you guys mean by a level playing field?

DH

Antman
2nd Oct 2009, 13:37
1.YES - You should see the fuel policy!!:ugh:
That's why we don't tanker to MLW everytime we depart DXB, if it was cheap we would!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Q. Some of your competitors accuse Emirates of enjoying an unfair advantage in terms fuel. Are these allegations valid?

A. Emirates purchases its fuel on the same terms as every other commercial airline at all airports at which it operates, including at Dubai International Airport. In 2007/08, fuel accounted for more than 30% of Emirates' total expenditures, which is comparable with the relevant expenditures of other long haul international carriers such as Qantas, Singapore Airlines, Lufthansa or British Airways. Earlier in 2008, Emirates shared the aviation industry’s pain with respect to record high fuel prices. For the first six months of the financial year ending 30 September 2008, Emirates produced a net profit of Dhs 284 million (US $77 million) - down 88% compared to Dhs 2.36 billion ($643 million) net profits for the same period in 2007 and meant that Emirates’ fuel costs were higher than budgeted by Dhs 1.7 billion ($469 million). From a historically low base, the relevance of oil to Dubai over the last few decades has been steadily diminishing to the point that today oil related GDP represents only 5% of Dubai’s total GDP.



2.NO - He is head of the DCAA which is Dubai's ACSA (Airports Company SA):ugh:

The GCAA = The SACAA (Which he has nothing to do with)
The General Civil Aviation Authority (GCAA) is a federal, autonomous body set up to oversee all aviation-related activities in the United Arab Emirates.

Avi8tor
3rd Oct 2009, 05:35
I am sure the ones that put a lot of negative stuff here wish they were at SAA.Here's the short answer to that.....NO, i think not.

This amazes me, I DO NOT wish to see the demise of SAA or any airline for that matter. That gets my goat is for YEARS we have been hearing about a turn around in SAA, but year after year the begging bowl comes out and the tax payer bails it out.

I would have thought the loyal SAA boys and girls here would be tired of their airline being the laughing stock of the industry' and actually want it to do well for a change.

All I am saying is sell it off, that will force some real management in, not some ANC lackies, and everybody is better off. Instead we get the usual rubbish, paper profits and huge government bail outs.

And please, dont try to deny the paper profits!!!

P.S.
me thinks the desert may be getting to you.The desert is great for my health and wealth. But thanx for the concern anyway. :ok:

ByAirMail
3rd Oct 2009, 05:48
avi8tor,
I am with you, accountants can be very creative. The track record speaks for itself. Very convenient to massage a profit before the World Cup.............. 2011 onwards is going to be very interesting; it's all World Cup hype right now
Don't take it personal. Remember these guys either elected to stay in a country that's hitting the international news more and more for the wrong reasons, infrastructure falling apart etc. Strikes due to the lack of service delivery are an every day occurrence and the list goes on.
So every time you debate fair practice they see it as an attack on their Alma Mater.

Now let me see, if I got into S.A.A. I would still be an F/O vs. B777 command. Not made huge money on the property market. Worry about my family's personal safety. Spend most of my trips in 3rd world destinations.

Then there is the guys from S.A.A. that did not get into E.K. or C.X. (pax and freighters).. shock and horror.. we don’t talk about that!!!

If they run out of argument or feel cornered they play the S.A.A. bashing card. It’s up there with the race card in S.A.A. Last defense and always sure to get some sympathy.

Ill share the beers with you avi8tor, but we need to collect them before 2011 as there is nothing after this magical Soccer World Cup.

jumbo1
3rd Oct 2009, 06:35
At the end of the day I get tired and amused listening to fellow aviators bash each others companies. Whether we work in SA or elsewhere (the freedom of choice) is irrelevant. We are all fellow pilots trying to feed our families, put a roof over their heads, educate our kids etc. We have no control over what airline management does. All we have is our professionalism and mutual respect for each other that differentiates us from them. So bin the "skygods" labels etc. There are bozos in ALL companies. We all want to do the best we can. I had the privilege of being a SKYGOD but chose to leave to go to the sandpit. My reasons are personal. I also worked for Comair. I miss both companies equally and terribly - not for the management, but for the PEOPLE I worked with. Professionals each and all.
I do agree that the taxpayer should not have to bear the brunt of the bills for SAA. However, the pilot body has no control over which bozos get elected to run the airline - I remember a strike ballot being taken years ago by the pilots - not for money, but for proper leadership of the company.
Criticise management all you want, they probably deserve it (in all airlines) but respect each other as fellow aviators.
My two cents worth
Happy landings all, and keep the blue side up :ok:
Rgds
Jumbo

Baas
3rd Oct 2009, 06:58
Oi Divinehover..!

What makes you think EVERYONE want's to work for SAA "sunshine"?

You seems to be blinded by "reality" mate!

Try and stick your neck out of SA and witness what is happening elsewhere, will yah...!

Dankie Oubaas!

:ok:

jbayfan
3rd Oct 2009, 09:29
If the desert is so rosy then why this thread :http://www.pprune.org/middle-east/390506-ek-resignations-4.html

Before I was hired by SAA, I flew on EK a few times on my way to a contract and even stopped over for a night in Dubai on one trip. All the ex-SAA or ex-SA pilots I ran into seemed quite morose and could only talk about their 4 x 4's and the share they had in a boat. That one day in Dubai convinced me I never wanted to go back. Suffocating heat and definitely a second class citizen status as a White SAfrican or other expat. I have never applied for a job with EK or any other foreign airline.

As one ex-SAA pilot who is now with EK told me: "You'll be fine at EK if you don't sweat the small stuff". There do seem to be a few expats who can hack it over there, but most seem to be miserable, especially those who left SAA to go there. And the families of the pilots seem to take the most strain and this is possibly the source of most of the stress the pilots face.

As one who spent 11 years living outside SA before joining SAA, I don't regret returning to SA and I am very appreciative of being a pilot at SAA. There is little that SAAPA can do to ensure that SAA has decent management in place, and this new board is another example of politically and demographically correct appointments who have no clue as to what an airline is about. However, we do have experienced people in senior management who can make the right decisions and hopefully the board will rubber stamp them. Any interference from the board and we'll be back at government's door begging for another cash injection.

As for those who constantly bash SAA, take a chill pill. SAA is a great airline to be a pilot for and we have an awesome pilot group, great routes and aircraft, and our pay packages are among the best in the world. However, we are not Sky Gods and pilots who are not flying for SAA are no less competent or deserving and many are simply not flying for SAA due to circumstance or personal choice. We respect you, so please respect us!! SAA's selection standards and criteria were "modified" and lowered significantly in past years and those who were more deserving and more qualified were not able to join SAA, and many of them are now flying for EK, CX or the other airlines in SA. We are all South Africans and we are all pilots, so let's keep it cordial.

Capetonian
3rd Oct 2009, 09:56
I used to stop over in DXB on the way to and from SA, as I had friends there. I saw very little reason for living there other than worshiping money, and now that the economy there has taken a hit, at the same time as landlords becoming greedy, that's less of a reason too.

The people I met there seemed quite morose and could only talk about their 4 x 4's and the share they had in a boat (or luxury apartment/penthouse/diving club/Ferrari etc .... as another poster has said. They also drank to ridiculous excess and my closest friend died a horrible death due to complications from this.

I was offered a very good job there, but I never wanted to go back. Suffocating heat and definitely a second class citizen status as a White SAfrican or other expat. The heat didn't worry me but everything else did. I found the place oppressive, vulgar, repressive, shallow, and no place to bring up children.

Gyro Nut
3rd Oct 2009, 11:26
Jumbo1 and Jbayfan you speak so much sense, unlike some of the other immature drivel on here.

ByAirMail
3rd Oct 2009, 11:41
So how did this turn into an E.K. discussion forum??
Aviation is bigger then just S.A.A. and E.K. jbay and others. Once again we are NOT bashing the people but the system. We all have friends in S.A.A., some of my friends are senior and they share their frustrations after a couple of beers, not a pleasant place out side the cockpit.

P.S. Watch the interview with Pres. Zuma on C.N.N. with Christiane Amanpour.. If you still have your head in the sand, good luck.

bianchi
3rd Oct 2009, 12:28
Jumbo1 and Jbayfan ................what a breath of fresh air to read your replies , unlike the normal : "yay SAA...again, now lets beat is to death AGAIN " !!!

Greetings Antman ...hope you well, regards to all !:ok:

African Tech Rep
4th Oct 2009, 04:47
"SAA is a National Airline. Not suppose to show a profit. That why they belong to the Government"

If only that had been the plan pre Colman & Andre times.

The "no need to show a profit / just show the Flag" policy was a reversal of the old 'show a profit policy' and (if memory serves me right) was brought well after Colman showed them how to SHOW (not make - just show) a profit.

Avi8tor
4th Oct 2009, 12:45
How did this turn into a quality/qantity of life debate between SA and the UAE? Ah, I know, if u change the subject, maybe nobody will notice. Old NAT trick :}

As for those who constantly bash SAA, take a chill pillThis is not to bash SAA or my good friends that still fly there. This is about the industry/economy in SA. When I am back in SA all I hear about is how the government is not providing x,y or z.

SA needs to get rid of the parastatals and get on with building houses, schools, roads etc. Let the free market get on with airlines/telephones/TV/power generation etc. SA is a country with limited resourses. It needs to use them wisely. Billions of ZAR's on something the private sector could do, with NO cost to the tax payer, is not that wise.

From the discussions I see here, I get the feeling that the SAA types feel the airline wouldn't make it without tax payer money?

P.S. Just to get my 5c worth on the SA vs anywhere else debate, its a personal choice. I know what works for me.

EDF
6th Oct 2009, 14:39
I've come to realize it works as follows... The 1st half of the year a profit is declared just before bonusses being payed out to employes. Then the 2nd half of the year (just around the time Trevor used to announce the budget) huge losses are reported.

Half year scenario..:D

groundfloor
9th Oct 2009, 09:02
Pure maths, SAA at 2008 58 a/c 11000 employees. First world airlines at about 50 a/c have between 3000 to 6000 employees - Guess how much toilet paper an extra 5 to 6000 people use.. LOL go figure:ok:

This is from the Star Alliance 2008:

Air Canada (AC) 335 aircraft 27,619 Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver
Air China (CA) 207 aircraft 18,872 Beijing, Chengdu, Shanghai
Air New Zealand (NZ)96 aircraft 10,829 Auckland, Los Angeles
ANA (NH)216 aircraft 22,170 Tokyo, Osaka, Nagoya
Asiana Airlines (OZ)65 aircraft 8,180 Seoul Incheon
Austrian (OS)105 aircraft 8,500 Vienna 34 aircr
bmi (BD)50 aircraft 4,378 London Heathrow, Manchester
EgyptAir (MS)49 aircraft 20,734 Cairo
LOT Polish Airlines (LO)54 aircraft 3,600 Warsaw
Lufthansa (LH) 430 aircraft 94,510 Frankfurt, Munich
Scandinavian Airlines (SK)180 aircraft 7,588 Copenhagen, Oslo, Stockholm
Shanghai Airlines (FM)59 aircraft 5,460 Shanghai
Singapore Airlines (SQ)92 aircraft 13,924 Singapore Changi
South African Airways (SA)58 aircraft 11,000 Johannesburg
Spanair (JK)63 aircraft 3,549 Madrid, Barcelona
SWISS (LX)74 aircraft 6,519 Zurich, Geneva, Basel
TAP Portugal (TP)67 aircraft 6,093 Lisbon
Thai Airways Intl. (TG)85 aircraft 26,435 Bangkok, Chiang Mai, Phuket,
Turkish Airlines (TK)97 aircraft 10,591 Istanbul
United (UA)460 aircraft 55,000 Chicago, Denver, San Francisco,
Los Angeles, Washington, D.C.
US Airways (US) 356* aircraft 36,500 Charlotte, Philadelphia, Phoenix, Las Vegas

Some airlines are notably more "well staffed" than others - look at Egypt air - why so many? .. Lufthansa for instance have a reason as they do all their heavy maintainence in house. Thai fly around with 2 full flight crews and about 22 to 24 cabin crew..

Shrike200
9th Oct 2009, 09:31
QRH for PPrune ORG-836/ Forums / Flaming or Trolling:

"SAA should be privatised/ make a profit/ stand on their own two feet/ not be ruled by creative accounting"

Condition:

A topic regarding SAA has been posted, and various mauled to death arguments are being thrashed even more, like the dead horses they are.

---------------------------------------------------

* Set FAIL switch to AUTO.

Choose 1:

* You work for SAA:
- Relentlessly bash those complaining, no matter the logic. Accuse
them of 'just being jealous because they didn't make selection.'
WARNING! - The above step is vital, and no SAA bashing thread can
progress without it!

* You do not work for SAA:
- Agree wholeheartedly, adding that SAA are a bunch of losers in
general.
NOTE - It is important to bait any SAA crew enough to get them
to feel that you actually, deep down, just want to be in SAA, really.

* If AUTOFAIL does not function, start getting personal.

WARNING! - Do not under any circumstances somehow bring the topic of old ballies like SL or any other SAA heavs into the topic. Loss of life/ severe injury could result.

NOTE: This checklist CANNOT be completed.

XXXXX



:)

goatherd
9th Oct 2009, 11:27
Divinehover

I love to read how the ""experts" always know everything about how Emirates pay for it's fuel. If only you had to read all the e-mails and memo's about min fuel this and saving fuel that. If we got cheap fuel why don't we tanker on all our sectors? Last month I actually took over 50 tons from Kuwait to Dubai (1.5 hours) to land at max landing weight, does'nt quite compute with your reasoning!

Maybe SAA (and this thread is about SAA is'nt it ?) should stop flying formo flypasts in 340's and 747's at every tinpot parade, get managers who actually manage and stop trying to screw the airlines that don't get government aid!

By the way, SAA lost money on the Dubai route (767 years ago) but Emirates now do 5 flights daily to SA!

:}

ERASER
10th Oct 2009, 06:43
"By the way, SAA lost money on the Dubai route (767 years ago) but Emirates now do 5 flights daily to SA!"

Isn't SAA code sharing on the (5) Emirate flights?