174 Indian pilots get jobs meant for expats

[jetzup]

wondering will the indian pilots concerned get the red cards or the yellow cards for this ...

174 Indian pilots get jobs meant for foreign ones - Mumbai - City - NEWS - The Times of India (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/news/city/mumbai/174-Indian-pilots-get-jobs-meant-for-foreign-ones/articleshow/5053164.cms)

[IndAir967]

I dont advocate this method.. but I dont understand where is it mentioned that Foreign Aircrew stands for Foreign Nationals Only..
I dont think any action will be taken in this regard..
Its just another issue thats gonna be swept under the carpet..
(p.s. once again I dont advocate this method)

[Sky Dancer]

Its a point that I had brought up on this forum a long time ago.If you by the present Indian regulations it is certainly illegal.The abbreviation of FATA will let you know that it is meant for foreign air crew and not for Indian nationals.This has been misused by various people to help kids who couldn't clear their Indian papers on time.I hope the DGCA acts on this soon and give the real Indian kids who have worked hard for their licences a chance for gainful employment.Sample this , except for the USA where even a cow can fly if you go to most ICAO contracting states , you would have to convert to their local licence before you can fly their aircraft.And let's face it , the FAA licence is not really the toughest in the world.Ask the Mid Eastern carriers , sample the number of Go Arounds their doing due to unstablisied approaches , mostly flown by ex RJ crew who still can get the descent planning right on a wide body...:ok::}:\:8

[shanx]

This thread is yet another classic example of one useless piece of news circulated by a newspaper popularly called the TOIlet paper.

Whether an Indian is flying on the basis of having an Indian Licence or under a validation, it should not matter really. The point is, an INDIAN is gainfully employed.
The lovely bureaucratic monster we have in place here is the only reason why a lot of people get frustrated and resort to taking shortcuts by using their clout and or bribing the DGCA.

Also, it is very surprising we still talk about things like Indians flying on FATA and not giving an Indian CPL holder his "due" etc etc, KNOWING FULLY WELL that merit has VERY LITTLE (if any) a role to play in getting airline jobs. Perhpas a little bit during boom time, but other than that, getting a job in an airline or charter is all about WHOM YOU KNOW rather than WHAT YOU KNOW.

Why is it that kids with a CPL and 200 hours and the right connections are the ones who get the jobs despite there being so many Type Rated guys with 200 to 300 hours experience on type ??

@Skydancer

I know guys who are Indians and are flying under FATA as FO right now and none of them have an FAA Licence. (they have JAA and Canadian CPLs). These blokes could not clear DGCA papers in 3 attempts too, but luckily their political connections helped them to get that RHS. Well, so much for the ultra tough and comprehensive JAA and Canadian syllabus and examinations !

Planning descent profiles, and other basic stuff on flying, is something that is taught in every country's flight training syllabus.
If an experienced ex-RJ guy still can not get it right on a wide body, then the reasons could be a lot, and not necessarily because he is an FAA cowboy !!

I also know a lot of freshers with a foreign CPL who have easily cleared DGCA papers including Nav in one attempt because they were properly spoonfed and guided with the right examination materials and tuition. So lets not sing praises about the nature of our "comprehensive and tough to crack" DGCA theory exams.

[WIKI44]

One of the requirements for issue of FATA as stated in CAR Section 7, Series G part II.

The flight crew should have a current passport with an appropriate employment visa issued by Indian Mission abroad.

This clearly precludes any Indian nationals from applying under this provision.

Furthermore;

For operation of aircraft having AUW exceeding 5700 Kgs

b) as co-pilot, the flight crew should have:-
i) Minimum 100 hours on type as P2, or
ii) Minimum 500 hours total on multi-engine, or
iii) Minimum 1000 hours total flying experience.

Did these Indian FO's have the necessary experience to qualify to fly under FATA?

[tangowithtushar]

nice point ... its pretty obvious they didn't start on the r.h.s with 500 multi or 1000 tt accordingly its a gross violation of the rules by dgca authorities themselves a PIL could hurt them really bad but who is accountable??

[shanx]

No, most of these Indians on FATA (First officers) did not have the requirements as laid down by CAR.
But come on ! Is that really relevant ? The Airlines who employed them have enough muscle and bribing power to get things done !

As the saying goes in India ..............


If at first you dont suceed, try .. try greasing some palms !! :E

[tangowithtushar]

i second that money talks bull:mad:t walks was just wondering if the new UPA thing that has been all across page 3 in hindu nd toi.. they could use this in one of their agendas..
lets face it what they are asking for benefits me directly as i am unemployed but things like getting atc jobs for cpl holders doesn't even make sense
i read somewhere, will quote it when needed that AAI takes months to even open applications for atc and one has to be an engineer to even qualify
instead they could try harping on this tone .. i know it would ruffle a few feathers but a lil' PIL on this fata thing could put a spanner somewhere
i know indian fo;s with fata would choke me for this but yeah in the hind sight who wants to bell the cat{dgca}

[spedfast]

@WIKI44

The mentioned CAR came into effect only on 8th Aug 2009. So before that, it was free for all!

Some ambiguities still persist. Quote :
"DGCA forwards documents for Security clearance of the foreign flight crew to security agencies. The security clearance requirement shall not be applicable for Indian pilots having valid Indian Flight Crew licenses. Indian pilots who do not possess valid Indian flight crew license shall submit security clearance from Local police authorities from the sate of their domicile"

[jetzup]

@shanx I agree TOI prints a lot of nonsense at times. I posted this news as this is pprune...and I am not consciously looking to start a debate, just providing some information, and also am wondering if any kind of action will be taken. The TOI is using the term "illegal" liberally. The DGCA has been quite conscious of media exposure recently and is trying to act transparent.

Feeding FATA leads to the media must have been one of UPA's move.

[spedfast]

@ tango, @shanx

Been reading your previous posts. So lets not start beating the drums again about corrupt DGCA, babus, red tape blah blah blah.

Although I do not defend DGCA, I do have some problems with anyone who blames DGCA and the 'system' right from the delay in issuing their Licenses to the weather of the day.

So @shanx, when you say No, most of these Indians on FATA (First officers) did not have the requirements as laid down by CAR
Theres a good reason for that, no such CAR existed at that time!
So good luck on that scoop.

[WIKI44]

@spedfast
the car was issued in 1999. last date of amendment is 2009....

[shanx]

@spedfast

To the best of my knowledge, the particular CAR (related to FATA and requirements etc) did exist at the time Indian nationals were being taken in by airlines as trainee FOs .. more specifically during the aggressive hiring times (2006 - 2007).


This whole issue regarding Indian nationals and FATA is at the very best, irrelevant and is most probably being raised by this newly formed UPA (Unemployed pilots association).

It's really amusing to see the whole bunch of kids who were back biting and backstabbing each other just a few months back, suddenly forming unions and associations to magically create vacancies in Airlines and Corporates !!

[jetzup]

@ Shanx

Irrelevant to you, but not to a lot of people, apparently. And I am not planning to debate on it.

[IndAir967]

CIVIL AVIATION REQUIREMENTS
SECTION 7 - FLIGHT CREW STANDARDS
SERIES ‘G’ PART II

SUBJECT: VALIDATION OF FOREIGN LICENCES OF FLIGHT CREW

(iv) For instructor/ examiner under FATA for Flying Training Institute on
aircraft having AUW below 5700Kgs:-
a) shall comply requirements as in (iii) a) above
b) the applicant shall have equivalent instructor rating from contracting state;
and
c) shall meet the following flying experience requirement: -

a. for Assistant Flight Instructor on Aeroplane-
(i) PIC of an aeroplane -200 Hrs
(ii) PIC of aeroplane within a period of eighteen months– 50 Hrs

b. for Assistant Flight Instructor on helicopters-
(i) PIC an helicopter- 100 Hrs
(ii) PIC of helicopter within a period of eighteen months– 50 Hrs

c. for Flight Instructor Aeroplanes
(i) Instructional experience on aeroplane – 300 hrs
(ii) flying experience by night– 20 hrs with atleast 20 T/O & Ldgs.

d. for Flight Instructor Helicopters
(i) Instructional experience on helicopter -150 Hrs
(ii) flying experience by night– 20 hrs with atleast 20 T/O & Ldgs.

REQUIREMENTS:
(i-vi) :.....................

(VII) For extension of validity of FATA beyond three months, the flight crew shall have to pass the written examination in Air Regulations. This requirement shall not be applicable for Indian Pilots having current Indian Professional Pilot license. Air Regulation examination for extension of FATA shall be conducted by Central Examination Organization with prior appointment.
Result of the examination shall be declared by CEO on the same day.

____________________________________________________________ _

Ok now I have the Indian Professional Pilots License - CPL MER IR and a couple of aircraft ratings on it..
I also have FAA CFI CFII MEI and my instructional experience meets more than what is required for the issue of FATA for indian FI Rating..

Now can somebody care to explain whats wrong in me joining (if i had to) as an FI in one of these Indian Flight Schools.. I have by no way bent any kind of rule on the book (atleast according to my knowledge) ..

[Sky Dancer]

Shanx ,

Let me be upfront with you buddy.You're the type of scum that Indian aviation certainly doesn't need.I can almost guess where you're coming from.You must be one of the FATA boys.0% on knowledge but 100% on ego and talk.I had the chance to fly with a few and I can tell you no one displayed ,without exception ,the level of proficiency required to be sitting in the right seat.Try and get into a mid eastern carrier with 1000 hours total and a B 737 / A 320 type rating from the US on a FAA licence.They'll flush your application down the toilet.Rules are rules buddy and even in good old India they have to be followed not just in the USA.I talk from experience and there are many on this forum who agree with me.The FATA was created for a purpose , many have misused it and no one ... I mean no one can argue in favour of that.If you come to India and want to fly , fly by the rules.:ok:

[IndAir967]

@ Shanx..
You are right.. the rule did exist at that time..

This was the scenario then..
Urgent need of Trainee Pilots..
Not enough Indian CPL holders..
Next option is to hire foreign nationals but the cost of hiring one would be really high.. the next best option was these indian guys who are in the process of conversion.. hire them and pay the regular indian pay (though they are under FATA) works out as the best option for the airline then..

[shanx]

Skydancer,

Let me be upfront with you buddy.You're the type of scum that Indian aviation certainly doesn't need.I can almost guess where you're coming from.You must be one of the FATA boys.0% on knowledge but 100% on ego and talk.

I'll be upfront with you as well, Sir.
It is opinionated and prejudiced people like you which Indian Aviation certainly doesn't need.
You have perhaps not read my earlier post where I have strongly written against the 200 hour wonders with 1000 hour egos, and why they have no place in the cockpit, India or elsewhere.
As for your guess, you're way off. Im not a "FATA boy". Im just an Indian CPL holder with ~250 hours TT. I did my initial training in the US and passed the DGCA papers in the first attempt.

I had the chance to fly with a few and I can tell you no one displayed ,without exception ,the level of proficiency required to be sitting in the right seat.

Once again sir, if you can go through some of my previous posts, I have written exactly what you have written. Kids in the cockpit (whether they are under FATA or with Indian CPL) having 250 hours total time but having egos like they are a 10K hours P1.
I totally agree with you on this one.
The only point I was making was this bias against FAA licence holders.
With the right training and selections process, anyone with aptitude and genuine interest should be capable of being a competant first officer (whether FAA, JAA, etc)


Rules are rules buddy and even in good old India they have to be followed not just in the USA.I talk from experience and there are many on this forum who agree with me.The FATA was created for a purpose , many have misused it and no one ... I mean no one can argue in favour of that.If you come to India and want to fly , fly by the rules.http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

You have misunderstood me.
When I was talking about the IRRELEVANCE of FATA as an issue for the students who have formed the UPA (unemployed pilots association), what I meant was that even if DGCA does stop these FATA boys from flying anymore unless they get an Indian licence, it would hardly do anything about their unemployment problem simply because of the sheer numbers.

And why is it that senior Indian pilots are silent on these things and only choose to bash the wannabes ?
Why dont you strike/protest against management against taking in fresh Indian pilots under FATA ?

I meant no offence in my earlier post and apologize if it did offend you in any way.

[Sky Dancer]

Shanx ...thanks for the clarification.I owe you an apology.:ok:

[tangowithtushar]

@ shanx
is there a synonym for "wannabe" :confused:
something that doesn't
sound as
deflating??:uhoh:
after all the bashing we get on pprune (well not always unwarranted) ive begun to hate the term "wannabe":}

[spedfast]

@WIKI44, @shanx

Technically you guys are right. The CAR did exist since 1999. However it was so useless, that when in Aug 2009 DGCA finally did decide to revise it, they did not find use for even a single page from the old CAR.
The previous CAR simply said " FATA shall be issued to ....." and "all ratings valid on foreign license will be ratified as such".
Nothing about experience, exams or any such thing.
Everything was open for own interpretation, and many rules were "bended" as such.

[functionisthestyle]

I know a few guys in this position. Honestly, I don't see anything unfair about it. On the one hand they get a so-called "expat" contract. While on the other hand they are just a contract employee, therefore no job security. Sounds like a fair trade.

[stone_crusher]

hey guys.........
just got the news from india some guys wit nice political connections who cant even clear the philippines CPL exams are flying B200 wit expat commanders ......:ugh:
sadly i dont have any political daddy and i did my traning from PHILIPPINES.....
even with 1100++ hrs tt 700++hrs twin no one wants to even look at my resume......
my DGCA papers are cleared first shot.. but they are useless as no ones hiring me....:ugh::mad:
and the whole thing about FATA, i spoke wit some senior expat and indian commanders they say it doesnt matter wether u have the indain lic or not just you should know how to fly your A/C and fly safe... thats the whole point ....
I am flying in fish cargo in MANILA ... i flew wit couple of INDIAN guys who hav DGCA lic ...for 10 degree hdg correction they use 30 degree bank
and when we had an engine failure he was complete blackout.....
its just your skills that matter while flying not your lic
They just say proudly we have Ind CPL ... but in flying they are worst than guys with philippines CPL....I know philippines has a bad name for training and logging and all the other stuff.....
But there are some people who know their stuff very welll.....
BR
stone:ok:

[IndAir967]

hey guys.........
just got the news from india some guys wit nice political connections who cant even clear the philippines CPL exams are flying B200 wit expat commanders ......:ugh:
sadly i dont have any political daddy and i did my traning from PHILIPPINES.....
even with 1100++ hrs tt 700++hrs twin no one wants to even look at my resume......
my DGCA papers are cleared first shot.. but they are useless as no ones hiring me....:ugh:http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/censored.gif
and the whole thing about FATA, i spoke wit some senior expat and indian commanders they say it doesnt matter wether u have the indain lic or not just you should know how to fly your A/C and fly safe... thats the whole point ....
I am flying in fish cargo in MANILA ... i flew wit couple of INDIAN guys who hav DGCA lic ...for 10 degree hdg correction they use 30 degree bank
and when we had an engine failure he was complete blackout.....
its just your skills that matter while flying not your lic
They just say proudly we have Ind CPL ... but in flying they are worst than guys with philippines CPL....I know philippines has a bad name for training and logging and all the other stuff.....
But there are some people who know their stuff very welll.....
BR
stonehttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

Stone all i can do is sympathise with you..
Having been an instructor and now an airline pilot i ll tell u the preference
the airlines give for hiring is:
JAA CPL + INDIAN CPL = Numero Uno.
FAA/Canadian CPL + .. = 2nd Option.
ICAO CPL (From developed countries)
+ Indian CPL = 3rd Option.
Guys who got trained in
India itself = 4th and Final Option.

Though I know there might be some really good pilots from where you are..
Phillipines CPL is a Big No for most of the Airlines..
May be if u get ur ATPL u might stand a chance..
Believe me or not when I had gone for the airline interview
in those days.. The very first thing done was send a lot of
phillipines CPL guys back in the first round itself..
Its Shocking but its the truth ..

So ATPL is the only way forward for you ..
Best Wishes !
IAC967:ok:

[stone_crusher]

thanks mate.....
just wanted to ask you as the ATPL requirements in india and pilippines are different like night time its around 100 in philippines and in india its around 500 i think not sure.....
any chances that airline start hiring in near future....
i am asking you coz you are sitting in the airline..........
plus does it make a big difference if I have any type ratings coz its very expensive to take one and to maintain the recency.....
BR
stone:ok:

[M 0.78]

IndAir967 wrote:

"Though I know there might be some really good pilots from where you are..
Phillipines CPL is a Big No for most of the Airlines..
May be if u get ur ATPL u might stand a chance..
Believe me or not when I had gone for the airline interview
in those days.. The very first thing done was send a lot of
phillipines CPL guys back in the first round itself..
Its Shocking but its the truth .."

There are a couple dozen schools in the Philippines that specialize in "training" Indian students. They are all fly-by-night outfits that certify much more flying time than the students actually fly. Students typically fly about 100-120 hours for their CPL/IR. Also, solo flight outside the traffic pattern is prohibited by these schools. Students on "solo cross-country" flights must fly with a "safety pilot" who may or may not be a licensed instructor.

Students are introduced to the schools by Indian agents who take a substantial cut of the tuition as a commission. The schools pay part of the remaining tuition to corrupt local officials who turn a blind eye to what has obviously been going on for years.

An agent approached the owner of a large pilot school in the Clark Freeport Zone and offered to bring in "as many students as you can handle" in exchange of USD3,000 per student to be deducted from the tuition paid by their sponsors. The owner refused saying he would be unable to complete their training below actual cost. The agent said quite candidly that the students did not actually have to fly all of the required hours. Everything had been "pre-arranged" all the way to the DGAC.

The agent even proudly told the owner, "If you think you Filipinos are corrupt, you are nothing compared to us!"

Yikes!

So that particular school is not on the Indian gravy train that has made many other pilot school owners into multi-millionaires. They have perhaps a dozen or fewer Indian students who did not go through agents. That school has more than 100 students from all over the world so it's not hurting.

Pity the poor students who now hold Philippine CPLs that are next to worthless. Then again I've flown with graduates of US-FAA Part 141 schools who had a hard time finding their a*se with two hands. So the problem isn't localized in any particular place. Levels of competence, corruption, and greed vary widely/wildly around the globe.

:ugh:

[stone_crusher]

thats very much true what you said..........
I can consider myself lucky in that senario I paid additional to compensate for the agent commission. also the commission is more than $3k...
BR
stone:ok: