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turbantime
28th Sep 2009, 00:19
To all those Tiger guys/gals now flying increasingly out of Sydney,

I don't want this thread to turn into a bitch session but rather to tell you that people are watching and there are some of you guys behaving in an atrocious way in Sydney. The usual sequence is get ready for pushback, ask for pushback, then actually pushback. I have personally observed you guys ask for push, stooge around for another 3 to 4 minutes then actually go...in those 3 minutes you could have another aircraft pushed and gone or another aircraft dock onto an adjacent bay.

Some examples:

Virgin xxx: request pushback
ATC: Virgin xxx pushback approved northern disconnect
Virgin xxx: pushback northern disconnect

Tiger xxx: request pushback
ATC: tiger xxx push approved southern disonnect
Tiger xxx: pushback to southern disconnect

Now the Virgin pushes, does its starts and calls for Taxi and the Tiger hasn't even started moving.

ATC: Tiger xxx, Syd ground, are you pushing if not hold position.
Tiger xxx: Ahh, yeah, we're pushing now
ATC: That's not what I said but since you're already doing it then too late.

Similar example last night with 2 Tigers and a Virgin trying to pushback and get out before curfew.

Tiger xxx: request puschback
ATC: Tiger xxx pushback approved
Then the Virgin and Tiger call for push in sequence.
4 whole minutes pass (remember folks, curfew)
ATC: Tiger xxx, are you pushing back anytime soon?
Tiger xxx: Oh, we're starting engines but you can let the other tiger go 1st
ATC: No, Virgin's next in the queue, Tiger xxx hold position, Virgin push approved.

Then there was a discussion of how curfew ops work out of Sydney between Tiger and ATC. Tiger was not aware that if Taxi clearence is recieved before 11pm then they can T/O anytime after 11pm. It sounded like the ATCO was desperately trying to hint to him to just ask for push and taxi and he'd be covered, but alas the nudge nudge hin hint was lost on him.

Anecdotal evidence shows that these incidents are not isolated and I hope some sort of message gets through to what is hopefully the minority causing the issues.

I also acknowledge that there me other issues at play here such as ramp staff shortage or poor training and therefore taking them forever to hook up towbar etc etc and that it's not neccessarily the tech crew's faults at play.

Rant over!

Dunnza
28th Sep 2009, 04:53
Airlines do it all the time... Countless times, both Virgin & Qantas do the exactly the same...

I think you have a bee in your bonet with Tiger? Did you application get rejected?

Enema Bandit's Dad
28th Sep 2009, 06:01
He's obviously a Virgin pilot. Why would he apply for Tiger then? :eek:

Keg
28th Sep 2009, 08:01
Airlines do it all the time... Countless times, both Virgin & Qantas do the exactly the same...

I'd suggest that we (QF) do NOT do exactly the same. Personally I'm always ready to push when we request it. If something changes and for some reason I'm not able to push within 30 seconds of being granted approval I let ATC know. In my 13 years of domestic operations I've never seen it done any other way by any of the crew I've flown with.

Perhaps you'd like to re-phrase?

Bob Morane
28th Sep 2009, 08:05
Turbantime, You are obviously not a High time professional pilot, if you were, you would not have posted such immature rubbish on this forum. I find it hard to believe that you are are 28 years of age.

Al E. Vator
28th Sep 2009, 08:15
Bob: suggest your aggro at the previous poster is out of order, perhaps it's YOU who are posting the rubbish.

I know lots of very high time turbine pilots (Ansett and TAA) who did exactly this. It's an annoying and selfish practice and exists amongst all carriers (including QF and DJ) to this day. I do as Keg mentioned and try to amend things when they change but I sometimes suspect I am in the minority!

Before you denegrate somebody, make sure you know what you are talking about.

Dunnza
28th Sep 2009, 08:17
Keg,

Perhaps, wasnt meant to say all the time. But, it does happen.

It does happen with all carriers both DJ and QF but perhaps not all the time as I have suggested.

For a number of reasons a 'delayed' pushback holds everything up. We are only human!

Agent Mulder
28th Sep 2009, 08:57
People who LIE do not belong in the front seat of any RPT aircraft.

Keg
28th Sep 2009, 09:35
Dunnza says it happens. I've been flying domestically since early 1997. I don't ever recall a time when a QF has requested push and not actually been ready for push. I've seen occasions where subsequent things have popped up and ATC have been informed but no one has rorted the system as indicated by turban in their first post.

greenslopes
28th Sep 2009, 09:39
Tried the same thing at Heathrow. Only to be told by Ground that he had us on the monitor(video) and that we should call back when the Tug driver has finished adjusting the bar.
So yes I spose I'm guilty of trying to get away as soon as possible, who hasn't tried to get an early mark??

Glass houses and all that!http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/icons/winksbuddie.gif

Obie
28th Sep 2009, 09:44
...and you call yourselves professional pilots?...

what an embarrassment you are to the profession of Airline Pilots!!

The Bullwinkle
28th Sep 2009, 10:35
I'd suggest that we (QF) do NOT do exactly the same. Personally I'm always ready to push when we request it. If something changes and for some reason I'm not able to push within 30 seconds of being granted approval I let ATC know. In my 13 years of domestic operations I've never seen it done any other way by any of the crew I've flown with.


I'm with you on this one Keg!

I've never known anyone at VB to use those tactics described, and if ever we have had a subsequent issue arise after we have called for pushback which will delay us by more than 20 or 30 secs, we have cancelled our pushback!

Maybe the Tiger boys were just upset that we wouldn't "Lend" them our engineers to help with their little start problem! :E

68+iou1
28th Sep 2009, 10:44
After years of lies. In Rome you have to have your doors closed and tug conected before you get a clearance. :eek:

Bankstown
28th Sep 2009, 10:47
The exception being the SIT where a request for pushback is the only way to get the tug to come over!

teresa green
28th Sep 2009, 11:24
Al E Vater is correct, it was common practice with both TAA and Ansett, but done with humour and some sledging, and was usually was due to the "Great Australian Air Race" and was part of a normal days flying, and anybody who has seen a AN aircraft pushing back and actually taxing with his steps still retracting (like a giant indicator) will know what I mean, anything to get the nod first. Don't believe it is still going on. Surely.

airtags
28th Sep 2009, 11:34
what keg said.

Gobetter
28th Sep 2009, 11:38
Keg squared.

Capt Fathom
28th Sep 2009, 11:43
requested push and not actually been ready for push

It's the game you must play if you plan to depart after 11pm! :E

Too many high horses around here!!

missy
28th Sep 2009, 12:12
No need to rant.

From the Tower the delay between request and actual pushback is very noticeable for Tiger pushbacks. If anything positive comes from this discussion and there is a reduction in delays then this will be a win/win.

Ignorance about the curfew is widespread (not just aircrew). Simple set of rules.

For scheduled jet ops, aircraft must be in receipt of taxi clearance BEFORE 11pm and then can depart from RWY 16R after 11pm (at any time really especially when waiting for the downwind to drop).

Sydney ACD 133.8, Sydney Ground 121.7 & 126.5 will assist you with the curfew but it is easier if you at least have some idea.

Capt Claret
28th Sep 2009, 12:14
From the front seat of a 717, and I'd guess many a jet, one can't see the tug driver. An infrequent occurrence is to note that the tug is in position and call for pushback, only to be told, "there's no driver" when advising the venerable gingerbeer that we're ready to pushback.

slight thread kreep

When I was a youngster (baby boomer - just) Aussies were known for giving a fair go. Now it seems to me, sadly, that we're known for hanging sh!t where ever we can. :sad:

Tee Emm
28th Sep 2009, 14:29
Now it seems to me, sadly, that we're known for hanging sh!t where ever we can. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/puppy_dog_eyes.gif

You certainly have a charming way with words - just like our Dear Leader K. Rudd - crass and oafish. I suggest the problem - and it seems this is not an isolated case- is lack of proper training of new pilots during the induction phase of recruitment and ditto during the line training. Often it is a typical case of "she'll be oright, Mate" and learning (?) on the job. The learning part needs a bit more polish..

halas
28th Sep 2009, 18:33
Anything bigger than a 717 you don't even know if there is a tug, let a lone a driver.

halas

Normasars
28th Sep 2009, 22:31
When I was a youngster (baby boomer - just) Aussies were known for giving a fair go. Now it seems to me, sadly, that we're known for hanging sh!t where ever we can


Quite correct there CC.

I think it's something along the Gen Y "all about me" attitude WRT hanging it on anyone and everything at any opportunity.

Sked
28th Sep 2009, 23:29
So why wouldn't you confirm with the bloke on the headset if he and the tug are ready for push before you put your foot in it and ask for push with ground and then find out you don't have a tug? It's what I do.

Goat Whisperer
29th Sep 2009, 06:26
I haven't had issues with Tiger at Sydney yet, but I have observed them request a pushback at Perth with a cargo door open and request taxi at Hobart with an engineer/dispatcher still attached. The Hobart occasion blocked us in while we were ready to taxi, while we were lucky to be blocked in Perth, where we took off while that aircraft was still on the bay.

I haven't seen this from QF/DJ/JQ and I hope Tiger pilots (some of whom I count as friends) don't do it to be smart, it's simply poor airmanship.

nitpicker330
29th Sep 2009, 06:39
I've seen Jetstar call for taxi in Singapore while the Ginger beer was still on headset!! And then then they took off in the mother of all Ts effecting the departure Runway ( 02C )

However we here at CX can't talk, we've had aircraft start to taxi without clearing the Engineer too.

Goat Whisperer
29th Sep 2009, 07:08
I see.

there is a difference between wilful poor form requesting a push/taxi when you're not ready to beat someone else to the punch and an error (potentially dangerous) like taxiing away before it's safe to do so.

I would suggest that if pilots are deliberately getting out of sequence by requesting a taxi before the engineer disconnects it could lead to a occurrence where they actually taxi with someone attached, a dangerous mistake that VB made once in its infancy to much cries of "pay peanuts/get monkeys" etc. No harm done but it was an inadvertent procedural error

nitpicker330
29th Sep 2009, 15:31
I agree.

The JQ guys in Sing did it knowingly, wont be long before they run over the poor ginger beer.

The CX guys did it by mistake and CX have changed the after start check list and hammered the SOP's again to stop this happening again.

Keg
29th Sep 2009, 21:25
It used to be SOP on the 737 to call for taxi clearance before the engineer hand signal had been received. Leave that open as an option for what is occurring at J* Asia.

I don't agree with it if it is SOP as it's asking for trouble- and got changed at QF some years ago for obvious reasons- but it remains a possibility.

xrisi
30th Sep 2009, 09:11
OBIE
Quote:...and you call yourselves professional pilots?...

what an embarrassment you are to the profession of Airline Pilots!!



A BIT RICH COMING FROM A SAD L#SER LIKE YOU.
THE PURVEYOR OF THE S###LIST :mad::mad::mad::mad:

nitpicker330
30th Sep 2009, 10:56
Gidday Keg, it's one thing to call for Taxi after you given the verbal "start complete clear to disconnect" call and quite another to do it before!!

In JQ's case they were just finishing starting the right Engine and hadn't told the Engineer to go. ( He was still watching the right Engine and wasn't talking in the headset until after they made the Taxi request. )
he then walked away, waved and they moved off.......

Anyway.............

Keg
30th Sep 2009, 11:20
Fair enough. It'd be interesting to see what the SOP is....or isn't! :eek:

littlehurcules
30th Sep 2009, 12:58
Just like the wing inspection (ice lights) being SOP - and blinding everyone :ok::ok:

Douglas Mcdonnell
30th Sep 2009, 13:01
Turbantime. Airman ship is a dying quality. Unfortunately this is encouraged by most operators. Treat others as you want to be treated I guess.

To read this entire thread sadly only re enforces the concept the there are almost no gentlemen left in Australian aviation.

To think that this is what it has come to.

Embarrassing.

I reckon you kids could do with a history lesson or two. Its just pathetic the way many conduct themselves in the air and on this Australian forum. You would honestly think your lives depended on it. I suppose being sequenced first and getting that high speed descent is the modern day equivalent of staying south of the border. I'm sure you ALL know what I mean. Many of lessons can be gleaned from the silent minority.

DM

Capt Fathom
1st Oct 2009, 11:15
Australians apparently have the best CRM in the world

And the source of that statement would be.....?

CYRILJGROOVE
1st Oct 2009, 15:24
And the source of that statement would be.....?

WARREN

Capt_SNAFU
1st Oct 2009, 22:42
I'm curious about this lose of night vision angle. Seeing as though you need about 30-45 of darkness (absolute darkness) to get night vision up to scratch your night vision is already ruined by the sea of lights that modern airports are. City lights in the back ground, landing lights of approaching aircraft, strobe lights of aircraft either on approach or crossing runways, the brightness of Rwy lights both CL and edge, the apron overhead lights, the headlights/flashing lights of ground vehicles, the light coming from the terminals. These all ruin night vision. Not too mention the fact you only turned down the cockpit lights when you are about to taxi and for the fact that you use white light in cockpits for reading airport charts etc. This is not to say that the wing lights are not annoying but to harp on about ruining night vision is a bit silly.

Keg
1st Oct 2009, 23:48
Perhaps they're referring instead to being dazzled by the lights rather than having night vision ruined. Related but different things.

I suspect abc1 was being facetious with his or her comment about CRM. That said, a number of studies world wide regarding cockpit culture, threat identification and mitigation, error management, etc all point to a positive outcome for 'western' flight decks with lower accident rates than airlines from other areas.. From memory, the yanks, brits, canucks, Aussies, Germans and French all rate pretty highly.

Funny how we digress from Tiger crews requesting push when they're not ready to discussing worldwide CRM effectiveness.

68+iou1
2nd Oct 2009, 11:02
How Ausiís are viewed overseas?

As an Ausi working oversees for the past 10 years. The reputation we have is split 50/50. There is the relaxed flying professional and the uptight arseholes.

Nothing to do with 89erís or Ansett. The relaxed flying professional fits in as 99% of pilots elsewhere are like that. The arseholes have a treble rep, and yes the rest of us are tainted with that rep!

Just look at pprune. The D&G site is full of bunch of back stabbing, petty individuals. These people would be regarded as arseholes in the real world.

And yes, being an arsehole has a negative effect on CRM!