Conscientious objectors in Military aviation

[Thirteen-Twelve]

Nothing to do with any religion, necessarily.

Should conscientious objectors be allowed in Military aviation and in the Royal Air Force does AP3392 Vol 5 adequately deal with this question?

And should the HQ P&SS visit your 'you know what' - rest assured I never felt aggrieved, punished, victimised or stuff presumed upon by others but amused.

Its a fair cop Danny - I tried to keep it on the straight narrow honest! To those who complained to Danny - THHHHHBBBBBBBBTTTTT

[Flatus Veteranus]

Surely the function of the RAF is, as its name states, to exert force. If you object to doing that, fly civvy.

[Oliver Reed]

In my opinion the RAF of today is nothing more than a large union using all that the Court of Human Rights has to offer in a politicaly correct kind of way. All we hear on Pprune nowadays is how hard done to the RAF is with regards to expenses, how blunties shaft us and general whining. We tend to forget to remember why we joined HMF in the first place. Although those values mean diddly squat to the types taking the Queens Commision today. It boils down to "Do I fly tin tubes to Ibeffa or Waz around for that bint in London with the crown on her bonce". "What can I get out of either equation??"

Con Ob might have been a talking point a few years ago but today you'd take them to the cleaners if told to f$%k off because of your views.

"I'm a disabled, black, hermafradite who has tendancies towards Lenin and objects to war...but I wish to have a job in the RAF. Stop me if you dare!" "I have Brussels in my mobile as quick dial number".

It'll happen. :(

It's all bollocks if you care to ask me! But I doubt you will.


Single seat, easy meat......yeah, right!

[fobotcso]

Bolleaux! Now I understand what they mean when they say "watch out for trolls on the Web"

Ignore him(her); (s)he's probably harmless.

[heavybuffet]

Mr Reed, I've been in the RAF for only a few years but I believe I joined for the right reasons and I stand along side many other young men and woman who'll agree with me. Those principles mean more to me than "..didly squat." Perhaps I'll have to 'get some time in' so I too can become bitter and cynical.
But to those who lack the moral fibre; do not take places in the military that others with the courage to do the right thing can fill. We need to see the bigger picture to help us to do what is required of us.

.....right, I'm off to the bar to set the rest of the world straight. Anyone for a pint?

[The Mistress]

Mine's a Boddies, thanks.

NO. I WASN'T one of those who e-mailed Danny :p

Conscientous objectors have absolutely NO place in the Military, whatsoever. That would be like having anarchists and anti-disestablishment types in the Police.

It's not in the job spec :)

[tony draper]

Perhaps the RAF could issue such chaps with rubber bullets and sponge bombs for the aircraft they fly, hmmm, ;)

[PowerRanger]

Gees - I find myself unreservedly agreeing with Distress. :eek: :eek: :eek:

The only question I would ask though is how does the military tolerate CND types in its midst?? :confused:

Either way, if you find yourself questioning whether or not you can fight if push comes to shove then you should quit now.

Does anyone remember the concept of 'my country right or wrong?' Or is that just another 'modernised' philosophy these days - turned into something more politically acceptable?

Angels and Ministers of Grace Defend Us.

Now someone pour those drinks - I need one!

:D :D :D

[Flatus Veteranus]

Mistress

I hesitate to contradict such a sharp polemecist is your good self, but surely an "anti-disestablishment" type is someone who opposes the disestablishment of the C of E as the religion of the State, with the monarch as its supreme governor. I think you meant "anti-establishment"?

:confused:

[ 30 November 2001: Message edited by: Flatus Veteranus ]

[bad livin']

When I started BRNC in September, we were told that a whole division (more possibly) of recruits had opted not to turn up after the events of Sep 11 and subsequent actions abroad. I know the services like to tell people about the fun aspects of life in the various mobs, but what did these people think they were joining??? It beggars belief. Perhaps the literature should now have "you may have to kill someone" in letters as bold as the ones about the adventurous training opportunities.

Edited for slleping!

[ 30 November 2001: Message edited by: bad livin' ]

[moggie]

Not quite on the subject of "conchies" but flying related. A couple of years ago I applied for a reserve job (actually an RAF uniformed, civil service post) flying Dominies at Cranwell. With my application form came an "Equal Opportunities Questionaire".

Good, I thought, race, colour, creed no bar (I am white, english, technically CofE, by the way) but then I read on a bit.

"Are you registered disabled?" went one question. "If so you are guaranteed an interview under the Equal opportunities Act of 19XX".

So if I had 1 arm, no legs and was blind I was GUARANTEED an interview for a pilot job!

Now, if that is not PC gone mad I don't know what is! does being bald and short sighted count as disabled - we can only hope!

Edited to sort out the usual spelling mustiques.

[ 30 November 2001: Message edited by: moggie ]

[tony draper]

Slightly OT here but I swear to God this is true.
My sister in law had reason to phone a enquiry service of lloyds bank a few years back, a lady answered and asked, could my sister in law please be patient as the trainee learning the job was profoundly deaf, and she would act as interpreter and sign her enquirery to the learner telephonist operating the computer.
I always thought someone was taking the p*ss, but my in law recons it was perfectly serious.
In a world where we have profoundly deaf telephonists, anything is possible.
:(

[ 30 November 2001: Message edited by: tony draper ]

[moggie]

I'm waiting for a blind brain surgeon . Still, there seem to be plenty of positions for people with learning difficulties in the MoD.

[Broadsword***]

This appears to be turning into a 'who's got the most sensational EO story?' thread.

Without wishing to sound sanctimonious, I wonder if the people who are so cynical about EO would be quite so smug if they were themselves disabled or socially disadvantaged in some other way.

There will always be a small minority who are willing to exploit the EO system. It would be wrong, however, to assume that this is the norm.

[The Mistress]

Flat V

You'll have to forgive me, my sweet. I'm drugged up to the eyeballs as I am on my second day off work with some bug brought home from my daughter's school. I'm sure the anti-dis-whatever-you-said is perfectly correct. I shall rely on you to keep me in check. e-mail me when I'm talking complete b*ll*x and I'll stop posting/self-medicating.

In the meantime, can I mix cider with paracetomol?

(JOKE!!!!!)

[Thirteen-Twelve]

So the real answer to the original question posed by the mistress (topic deleted), unless of course she was having a pot shot at christians is:

There is no place for conscientious objectors in military aviation and I can add, christians may or MAY NOT be a conscientious objectors but if they are then there is no place for them in military aviation. If christians in military aviation are NOT conscientious objectors then they rightly have a place on equal terms with everyone else but are requested not to ram God down peoples throats (even when the victim is 'asking for it).

But what about all those other religions her Maj allows in military aviation - a whole page full of them including 'peculiar people'. Not least what does it say on your dog tags and can you get it changed? - I will of course never say 'Christian'.

Hi Danny - trying to keep it on the straight and narrow still - the topic is to kill or not to kill - honest!

[BEagle]

But I've just been sent a jolly fine certificate telling me that I've completed an equal opportunities course! I think it was because 2 years ago I watched that video where some pompous $od is rude to a black mate during a rugby match. Quite rightly, said black chum takes it up the food chain!

Liked the comment I heard from some Spam:"We used to have 'Native Americans', 'Americans of colo(U)r, 'Americans of Hispanic origin' and 'Americans of Asiatic origin' at our University. We got annoyed with that - so we decided that we'd all just be 'Americans'!"

Bit like we are in the Service? So why all the stupid 'racial background' surveys?

As for 'conchies'.....surely in this day and age of no National Service we all know why we joined?

The Mistress - sorry to hear that you're feeling a bit icky-poo. May I recommend a sachet of extra strength Lemsip with a measure of scotch and another of Drambuie, a dessertspoon of honey and a good wedge of fresh lemon mixed with boiling water in a half-pint mug. Whilst it might do b*gger all for your bug, at least it'll make you forget about it!!

[ 30 November 2001: Message edited by: BEagle ]

[The Mistress]

1312

How very, very, very revealing!

"Even when the VICTIM is asking for it"!
Is THAT how 'Christians' and regular Church attenders behave? Hmmm, no wonder they have low attendance numbers.

Beags - Just had an Indian take-away delivered and decided to go for the cider anyway. Guess I'll sleep well tonight :)

[BEagle]

There's nothing like a vindaloo pull-through for sorting out a cold!

In fact there is clinical evidence that a good hot Indian meal is very conducive to recovery from a cold!

[Flatus Veteranus]

Mistress

Cider mixed with anything sounds acidic and risks confronting Hughie Parker-Custard. Beagle's recipe sounds promising but if you are exhausted before you have put it all together, just clasp the Scotch bottle to your bosom and take it to bed. Natures panacea! Nighty-Night! :eek:

[DON-KIESDIK]

You don't have to be a civilian to kill people or a soldier to be a conscientious objector.

Half (at least) of those in the armed forces (particularly AAC) DIDN'T join to fight wars and defend the country they joined because it was a job they fancied doing!

We all know it.

And while I'm on the subject, why do some (who don't) think they own this website, fancy sending emails to Danny (oo Danny we luv you) to complain.

You sad B******s!

[DON-KIESDIK]

Surely the function of the RAF is, as its name states, to exert force. If you object to doing that, fly civvy.(Flatus Veteranus)

So is it ROYAL then?, other than in name?

Picky W****R

[Flatus Veteranus]

DD

I don't know whom one swears allegiance to on attesting these days. But in my day it was to the King, his heirs and successors, and the officers set over me by him. To me that makes it the ROYAL Air Force. Atlee, Churchill, Wilson et alnever figured in my allegiance!

[Ghost Dancer]

Moggie,

Sorry, all the jobs for people with learning difficulties in the MoD are already taken.

Broadsword,

I fear you confuse EO with PC. EO is just what it says Equal Opportunities, whereas PC is minority rule.

Even under EO legislation, there is provision for disallowing an applicant where there is a Health and Safety implication or where their disability/limitation renders them genuinely unsuited to the job.

By the way, when is CTC being adapted to take wheelchairs?

[moggie]

In my view there are only two groups of people who should be allowed to be conchies in the military - the medics (doc, dentists, nurses etc.) and padres. These are the only peple who can guarantee that they will always be in non-combatant roles and as such their conchies status is irrelevant. In fact, of course, they are prevented from filling combatant roles by the oaths/vows taken to become a member of their cjosen vocation.

Anyone else who sees themselves as a conchie should get out - you are in under false pretences and your views (whilst valid in civvy life) could place you and a great number of other people in mortal peril.

If those views are held for religious, humanist, philosophical or squeamish reasons, those underlying reasons are irrelevant - it is the final implication that matters. If you are unable to place yourself in a position where you may have to kill, become a vicar, doctor, dentist, nurse or leave.

If those beliefs developed in service - then I am sorry but the forces are no longer for you. If you held them before you joined - why the he;; did you sign up?

I did not join the RAF to kill people (although I sometimes felt like doing it when dealing with Supply Sqn) but I accepted that as a trade of for doing what I really wanted - military flying. I ended up in jobs that meant I could be killed but not hit back - now I think that is thw worst of both worlds!