Pilot training loans secured over a property

[CaptainDan]

Hi All,

I'm looking for some advice regarding the securing of a loan on my mum and dads house. I know many of you will think its madness in the current economic climate, but what would be the situation if my parents wanted to move house during the term of the loan?

Would they be able to do so, and what would be the procedure with regards to securing the loan on the new property or paying it off?

Cheers

CaptainDan

[pilotho]

i don't think anyone could give you advice on that because it really is dependent upon your parents.

a lot of parents would do it for their children so then i think it's if the child can handle the pressure. you need to be realistic in deciding if you would be successful in the field not just the fact that you want to be a pilot. have you had flights in a light aircraft? you will be doing a lot of flights in those and very often by yourself, so you must see if you would enjoy that first.

there is also the medical to think about.

many aspects needs to be thought of before putting a house on the line. one thing i would say is that there is no right time to do training. anything can happen and you can never predict what this industry will do.

[CaptainDan]

Hey,

I'm the proud holder of a JAR PPL and a class 1 medical. I'm only 18 and i've had to get a job and work hard for 3.5 years to fund it. I've wanted to be a pilot since I was 6 years old so dedication, enthusiasm and aptitude won't be a problem :)

Just trying to find out what the situation would be if they wanted to move house. What would happen to the loan?

CaptainDan

[Bealzebub]

It is a loan secured by a charge on the property. If they already have a mortgage or secured loan on the property that will be the primary or first charge. Any other loan secured on the property becomes a second charge, third charge and so on. Before a property can have a completed sale the registered charges must all be satisfied. Any money that is left over after these charges and settlement costs have been satified belongs to the (ex) homeowner.

If your parents have sufficient equity in their home or availibility of other funds to satisfy this or these loans, as well as providing for the deposit or purchase of their next home, then they can move as they wish. Sometimes people can consolidate a number of previous loans, into one new one on either their existing property or on the new home. However it is important to understand that the secured loan will represent a legal registered charge on the property, and it cannot be disposed of without the lenders consent or a court order.

It is also a point to understand that although the lenders security will have a hierarchy depending on wether it is a first or second charge etc. any of them can force a sale to realize their security if you or your parents do not keep up the repayment schedule. As this could mean the loss of their home, it is not something to be taken lightly, and I am sure your parents won't.

[BigNumber]

Why is it necessary to get a loan in the present economic climate? This is hardly a period when training haste is required!

Why not train as you earn, paying as you go? There might even be a few jobs available by the time a licence is finished. There will also be more to talk about in all those interviews.

Admitted, I am not an expert on this subject.. I foolishly persuaded HM to pay for my licences!

[TheBeak]

Bealzebub is exactly right. My strongest advice to you is not to go down this route, certainly not for a couple of years and probably beyond that. If your parents are really willing to go for this and you, between yourselves, decide that this is right for you, see if they would be willing to extend their mortgage to the amount rather than going guarantor, it is a far cheaper method of borrowing and probably manageable for the amount if you trained modular and worked at the same time to service the immediate debt. On a mortgage the cost of borrowing is in the region of £6 per thousand borrowed per month borrowed on the average term. So for 30K you would be looking at about £180 a month as opposed to maybe £400-£500 a month the other way. The figure I quote there is a ball park figure and will vary depending on circumstances, interest rates etc. and may well be a little out of date but it is something to work with.

If I was you, I wouldn't do it for the moment though, patience is a virtue. There is nothing pleasant about being stuck with a load of debt (which you MUST service or else your parents are lumbered with it), a dimishing skill and not a chance which is nigh on the inevitable outcome if you do this now. It's a bitch but things could be worse, remember that.

[CaptainDan]

Thanks very much guys for all the advice, its certainly something that needs a lot of consideration.

CaptainDan

[Leezyjet]

As your only 18, there is plenty of time to have a career as a pilot ahead of you without having to take out a huge loan and place your parents property at risk.

If you already have the PPL, you could take out a £25k unsecured loan and that should pay for the CPL/ME/IR (using Stapleford's current figures, that would be £17445 not including extra's) and you would have money left over to pay for the ATPL's or the course extras. That way the house is not at risk, and over 8 years the repayments would only be around £400/month which is quite manageable even on a McDonald's salary. It's around the same as most of your mates would be paying on a new car loan.

You could then carry on working as you are now to pay for the rest of your hour building. Also by going Modular, this will allow you to start and stop your training to enable you to pace it to be ready for when the market picks up again.

:)

[Zippy Monster]

I'm looking for some advice regarding the securing of a loan on my mum and dads house.

The way I usually put it is this... think forward to a few years' time when your repayment start deadline has been and gone, and imagine your parents standing despairingly on the driveway while a bunch of bailiffs are changing the locks on the house and emptying all their nice possessions into the back of a van.

If you have any, ANY doubt whatsoever about whether you will have a permanent, full time airline job after training - as you surely must have if you've done your research - or have some other way of keeping up with the repayments, then surely you there have your answer.

My advice - DON'T DO IT.

[fly_antonov]

Please don't do it.

It's easy to spend the money, it's a thousand times harder to earn it back.

If something goes wrong, you and your parents will have to rent a house to live in...
You will regret it later on.

If you worked hard for it until now, keep working hard.

The industry is really bad now, 10 maybe 15K jobless pilots in Europe!

[BigNumber]

It's amazing. Irrespective of how many airlines fail, pilots are furloughed, or FATPL's struggle, the FTO's continue to thrive.

Young men ( mostly ) are still willing to do ANYTHING to get into the profession.

Even risk their parents home on what, evidentially, is an impossible dream.

I am all for learning to fly but pay for yourself as you go.

[pilotho]

there seems to be a very bias towards modular at the moment but i feel although money is a big deciding point between integrated and modular, i think the way that you learn should also be a deciding factor.

modular means you spread out the training over a period but integrated means you have a set structure that would be continuous. i personally chose integrated because i have always learnt best by continuously doing something without a large gap in between.

like many said, the industry is really bad at the moment so the risk is there. although like i said, you never know what would happen. the industry might experience another boom so you decide to take training and then half way through training, something else happens. same point as always, i don't feel there is ever a "right" time for training.

[Groundloop]

modular means you spread out the training over a period

Not necessarily true. Choose the correct modular providers and the modules will very nicely come one after the other with very few breaks. If you choose carefully you could possibly follow a modular course in a shorter time than an integrated course (but not very often!).

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

You'd have to be a mad drooling loon to take out a training loan on your parents home to do an integrated course at the moment. A certifiable lunatic. A mental case.

You are 18. You are a child. You have time on your side.

Get a job. Live at home. Save. Get a PPL. Get a share in a PFA aircraft. Start some distance learning groundschool. All the while the 18 year economic cycle is moving in your favour. 5 years from now you'll still be very young. The industry will be better. Then you strike.

To do so now, in the way you are contemplating, is futile and fraught with real danger.


WWW

[BigNumber]

Ahhh but they do keep coming WWW.

Every month yet more 'Proud' Parents watch their kids graduate from our reassuringly expensive FTO's.

(AND even more sign their offspring up for integrated courses.)

Crazy, but nothing written on these threads will stop the marching army of dreamy eyed youngsters blinded by the polished spin of OAA et al.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

The Wannabe Zombie Army is indeed formidable.


WWW:ugh:

[Desk-pilot]

There's an easy answer to all this - Queens flying club! You're 18, in two years you could be flying a Eurofighter at 600 miles an hour 300 feet off the deck in the Lake District earning £30k a year for doing it with no debts.

Better flying, free training, better salary, cheaper beer, cooler aircraft. Why the heck anyone of your age would even consider being an airline pilot when they could fly for the RAF is beyond me...

Desk-pilot

[MVE]

or maybe they don't want to be shot at, at work? ;-)

[FlyBoyFryer]

What's wrong with being shot at... as long as you can shoot back at the buggers? Nothing like a spot of competition, ra ra, stiff upper lip, what!

Heck, I used to get shot at on the way to a desk job in South Africa! Nothing cool about that.

What better way to go out than in flames, hurtling towards the earth in a multi-million pound tin can? Go for it, I say! :E

On a serious note - I agree it's unconscionable to secure a loan on property that you don't own yourself. It's far too easy to underestimate the consequences should things not work out as expected.

[BigNumber]

I agree it's unconscionable to secure a loan on property that you don't own yourself. It's far too easy to underestimate the consequences should things not work out as expected.




Isn't that how the 'credit crunch'started! You're in Edinburgh mate - ask Sir Fred!

[Ronand]

@CaptainDan don't do it with a loan! Trust me a frozen Atpl with plus minus 200hrs is worth nothing these days! As the job market looks today you have to expect to pay for your T/R aswell.. And even this won't guarantee you a job!
Look at me: I had enough money to pay for my FATPL without a loan. I'm 26, had all first time passes and more than 90% on every bloody ATPL exam. Plus I would pay 30-40k for a T/R in an eyeblink if I would get offered a plus 2 year contract! And guess what, after more than 150 cvs and applications sent I didn't even get a single interview....:rolleyes:

[expedite08]

Securing any form of loan on a property is totally and dangerously foolish!

Securing anything to do with aviation on a property....well...

You will have to bear with me as my vocabulary does not have the capability to find words to describe such a thing :ugh::ugh::ugh:

You get my drift

[jordanpolonijo]

Ive made a couple of comments concerning close friends of mine who chose UNSECURED loans, "when times where good" at CTC.

1 of the 4 has a permanent job and is still struggling for cash at BA.

1 never managed to find anywork.

2 Managed 6 month temp. contracts with Easy and then were let go.

All have x amount to replay. ( Almost 85% of the original loan )

There are one or two sponsorship options plus modular in this country or abroad.

How about a flying instructor or twin engine pilot with a CPL to allow renumeration through work.

I mean is 1 in 4 a good odds to risk your parents house on?

You could also look at this way are you willing to bet £70000 of your parents security on England being knocked out of the 2010 World Cup Quarter Finals? The odds are the same.

3 to 1 against/1 in 4

Surely you would want even odds in your situation? Where its a 100 percent guaranteed ROI.

ROI = (Immediate Guarenteed Job + Abilty to meet Loan Payments for 84 months) - Loan Payments

Its about making +ve EV plays in life not just at the poker table.

:ok::ok::ok::ok:

[Ronand]

I think its far less than 1 in 4 now days.
I'm still in contact with most guys from my groundschool. And out of 27 guys only 2 landed a flying job more than 1 year after graduating.
Those 2 had really good contacts in high positions... Everybody else is still jobless! The funny thing about this, is that those 2 who are flying now, struggled in groundschool and failed exams and their ME-IR... (one of them was even 43 years old whe he finished groundschool)
This shows that contacts are everything in this industry. I think the most important things u need to land a flying job are: (in this order):
1.Contacts
2.Luck
4.Cash
5.Dedication and Talent

My advice to anyone who wants to do comercial flying training is: Only go for it if u have huge amounts of cash, so you do not have to pay loans back in case u can't get a flying job for a long time. Or if you have contacts who can really help you in getting a job!! Everything else is like going to a casino with a 40k bank loan!! Probably your odds would be better in a casino...:}

[Piltdown Man]

18 months from now:

"Mum, Dad - I'm very sorry and I know I've spent the £50K getting a licence but I now need another £30K to get a type rating and £7K to get an Multi-crew course thingy"

24 months from now:

"Mum, Dad - err, I'm afraid I didn't get that job either"

36 months from now:

"Mum, Dad - Look, I'll try and pay you back as soon as I can. This guy recons that Picadilly Circus is a better place for trade - can a borrow a few quid more so I can get a prettier lipstick?"

DON'T DO IT. In your name yes, but not your parents.

PM

[Halfbaked_Boy]

There's an easy answer to all this - Queens flying club! You're 18, in two years you could be flying a Eurofighter at 600 miles an hour 300 feet off the deck in the Lake District earning £30k a year for doing it with no debts.

Better flying, free training, better salary, cheaper beer, cooler aircraft. Why the heck anyone of your age would even consider being an airline pilot when they could fly for the RAF is beyond me...

Desk-pilot

I went over to Cranwell and took the Queen's flying assessment thingy - results? Motor skills, memory, hand-eye etc etc, the chap actually said to me it's rare to see such high results!

Never continued though 'cos my eyesight falls a few increments shy of perfection unfortunately... oh well, guess I'll slog on with the CPL! :\

[BigNumber]

Halfbaked,

IF you passed OASC then why not apply to join the AAC??

The AAC is rather more understanding on the eyesight "thingy".

(When you come to leave military service you will graduate with two licences - Rotary and fixed!)

BN

[TheBeak]

you will graduate with two licences - Rotary and fixed

There is no such thing as a military licence, you have the experience and knowledge but no licence. But I know what you meant.

[Halfbaked_Boy]

BigNumber,

Thanks for the input buddy - I'll be honest and say now I'd completely overlooked the AAC (as most of my military knowledge stems from an air cadets background quite some years ago!), but I'll do some research into them.

I was, however, under the impression that they operate in a similar manner to the London Underground (yes, I've even been looking there for jobs in the past!) - that most recruitment is internal, including pilot selection?

I'll do me research, cheers again :ok:

[jamestkirk]

Listen to these people, they speak volumes of common sense.

I have had and still have a bit of sh^t with companies i owe money to. I sold my house and left a great job and still wonder if it was worth it.

Do NOT put your parents at this risk.

One of the posters on here I have flown with (WWW) and he is a good guy. So listen to him and us and look after yourself and your family.

You are only 18 and have years ahead of you to do this. I got my first job at 36 and on for command and 38. I had loads of fun between your age and now without aviation.