RAF Aircraft Crash Sites

[rivets]

This is not as hot subject as some of the other articles in these forums, however, I would welcome the views of other aviators current, as well as retired, on the subject of removing wreckage from crash sites in the UK.

Today 99.9% of the recoverable material is used for crash investigation. During WWII and perhaps as late as the 60's and early 70's some things were just simply left on site. This was frequently connected with the remoteness of the site.

I recently received news that one "team" is hoping to recover aircraft wreckage from crash sites in the UK with a view to aircraft reconstruction and preservation. I agree that our aviation heritage should be preserved, however, I have some reservations about this apparently new idea.

I wonder if I can get some views from the readership on the subject of pillaging a crash site where RAF Aircrew have been killed?
(edited for spelling)

[ 04 November 2001: Message edited by: Rivets ]

[Ali Barber]

I don't have any objections, especially if it is done to try and preserve the aviation heritage. I believe that there are regulations/laws covering this activity, especially if it is thought that the body/bodies might still be in the wreckage, but I can't remember what they are. I can remember a few/lot of years back an aircraft dig on a Spit/Hurri resulted in the finding of the body in the wreckage. It was duly recovered and buried properly. The whole thing was handled sensitively and I think that should cause no problem.

[Skylark4]

We had a talk from one of these wreck hunters a few years back at my PFA Strut. He was a **** of the first order. Showed us lots of pictures of him with JCB/hole in ground/ holding unidentifiable bit of scrap. He nearly had a sexual climax when he was telling us of how they dug one site even after they had been forbidden so to do.
There may be reasons to dig into some sites for identification purposes but probably very few. I would have thought that we already have enough bits of broken and corroded aeroplane and don`t need any more. Any crash on land is going to be pretty useless as a source of spare parts.

Mike W

[PA-28]

Try and get hold of a copy of 'Final Flights' - Ian McLachan pub PSL ISBN 1-85260-1221-1

I would strongly suggest not digging around in crash sites unless you know exactly what you're doing, i.e. ordnance disposal in the form of intact and potentially live 500 Kg german bombs !! military aircraft recovery is certainly tightly regulated by the RAF, they still own the airframe, and as for rummaging around in a designated war grave err... maybe you would want to think that one through again.

On the other hand there are a number of recognised preservation and recovery groups who would be very glad of the help. : )

[rivets]

Thanks for your views PA-28.

I perhaps have not explained enought. I was asking about the moral issue of even touching a crash site where RAF aircrew have been killed. I think they should be left as is, as a mark of respect.

Where all the crew escaped/parachuted/ejected with safety or no one killed, then no objections.

[ 04 November 2001: Message edited by: Rivets ]

[PA-28]

Sorry if the above was a bit abrupt : )

This link deals with the question, remains are under the Protection of Military Remains Act, but as in the case of Sergeant J.S. Gilders referred to the familly of deceased aircrew have an obvious interest.
http://www.btinternet.com/~air_research/aamiss.htm

Edited due to not reading the original post properly

PA-28

[ 04 November 2001: Message edited by: PA-28 ]

[MightyGem]

Skylark, everyone needs a hobby. I hope you don't bore people with: "Pulled off the winch at 1200, straight into 10 up. Couple of turns to centre, then all the way to gold height...". We've all done that.

These guys don't just dig up bits of old aircraft. A lot of time and effort is given up to finding out, often from part of a serial number, the story of that aircraft and it's crew. Often in the case of WW2 aircraft, they were listed as missing. Relatives are now able to find out what happened to their uncle, brother, father.

If "Final Flights" is the one about the crash sites in Norfolk/Suffolk area, I read it a couple of years ago. Fascinating stories. Of the 60 or so aircraft involved, I think only 4 or 5 were bought down by enemy fire. The rest were "accidents": engine failures, mid air collisions etc.
The stories ranged from the tragic: a B-17 crew returning home after their 25th mission (a la Memphis Belle) as part of a formation of three. The formation enters cloud, one aircraft goes out of control and collides with the happy crew. Both aircraft and crews wiped out. The comic: a Spitfire pilot bails out over East Anglia after running out of fuel on a night navex. He thought he was over South Wales at the time! The bizarre: another B-17, this time packed full of explosive circling over Suffolk supposedly under Radio Control, but just doing it's own thing.

As previously said, well worth a read. Skylark, take a chill pill.

:D

[rivets]

Thank you for your opinions chaps. The real issue here is not identification, that's all done. For example the "Casualties" have been removed from the site, all identified, all interred. Next of Kin all informed.

High and remote crash sites in Scotland were "generally" checked for ordnance, possibly not 100% but with bad weather/visibility that is understandable. Any valuable instrumentation or equipment, (particularly sensitive) was removed, and then what was not considered salvageable left on site. (Again remoteness of site dictating?)

My question was aimed at the ethics of disturbing a site after all this has happened especially after all these years. Thanks for the views.

[RATBOY]

In the archaeology biz people who go through to find artifacts for sale or for their own fun are called pot hunters or the metal detector crowd and they are almost universally not appreciated by serious (even if not professional) archaeologists.

In northern Virginia there are numerous Civil War sites and having dug some with real professionals I can say the ones that the metal detector crowd has gone through are less to much less to practically useless in terms of getting good data from. I think the Civil War sites are analogous to the aircraft sites to some extent because they are places where military engagements occurred and service members were killed/wounded. In many cases the dead were removed and attended to properly. It is general practice that it is allright to dig on these sites if there is a valid research purpose but going at it with the metal detector to see how many buttons/Minnie balls/other stuff you can find is not a good reason. When this is attempted on public property people caught at it have been arrested,tried and convicted and served some prison time as well as paid substantial fines, but not nearly often enough.

Seems that if there is a valid historical research reason to dig, fine. If somebody just wants more pieces of old metal to put on their bookshelf can't see the reason. Especially if there is a possible war grave inolved.

[Skylark4]

Mighty Gem,
Are you going to have a go at Ratboy now? His comments are much the same as mine, if a little more elegantly posed.

Mike W

[RATBOY]

I've been called lots of things, but never elegant.

There are serious amatuer acheologists around and when they learn the business and do it right they can make significant contributions to knowledge. This is true in aviation, industrial and other forms of archaeology. Where I have a problem is people just going out and digging stuff up when the metal detector beeps and destroying the site. It is unfortunate that many of these yobs don't know or care what they are doing and few are caught and punished. In the states, at least, unless there are human remains involved there is little one can do to protect sites beyond the posted, no trespassing and though there are parts of Virginia where it is still perfectly okay to shoot anyone on your land without permission, there are lots of places where you can get into big trouble for it and do 30 days in the county jail, but only if you actually killed him. But the won't take your gun away, thank goodness, but you could lose your concealed carry permit.

[MightyGem]

No. Ratboy doesn't object to archeologists or deride them as a whole. Just the irresponsible ones. As I said, the responsible ones do a good job.

[Arkroyal]

There are some excellent wreck sites in the Derbyshire peak district. Once I can dig out the guide book, I'll post its title.

In one afternoon a walk took in a Wellington, B29, Anson and a Dakota.

The most impressive thing is, that after over 60 years, hardly anything has been removed by the misguided. These sites remain a fitting memorial to those brave men who died in these machines.

We owe them so much, the least we can do is respect these wrecks.

[desertbootz]

You might be interested to know that over here in Holland they dig them up all the time. The Dutch Crabs dig up the sites, repatriate the crew remains etc. They seem to do a blinding job of it too. They used to get the UK to pay but MoD recently said they wanted no more to do with it and withdrew funding and support adding they would rather the Cloggies left them where they landed from now on. The Dutch decided the politically expediant thing to do was comply with the UK's wishes but with the caveat that they could dig them up if the aircraft posed an environmental risk. Lo and behold, every aircraft poses an H&S risk so they still dig them up, still repatriate the remains but I don't think they get paid anymore.