Large Station Closure!!!???

[Lowkey]

Just heard the 10am News, read teletext and the Sunday Papers. Does anyone know what is going on here or is this just another bout of the Press jumping on the band wagon?? :confused:

[Avoiding Action]

From Ceefax:

"... An MOD spokesman said the review was not necessarily looking at closure..."

Ah well, that's that then! :rolleyes:

[covec]

Please please please let it be HMP Deadloss!

[stbd beam]

It gotta be Kinloss - have you seen how much money is being spent on MRA4 airfield improvements and how many new buildings have shot up in the last few years. Makes it the prime candidate I suspect.

[Ali Barber]

Can anyone point to a link to the story on the Net? It takes a while for the papers to get out here!

[BEagle]

Found this on the Swindon Evening News website, I don't know whether it's the story you mean:

<< Battle plan to save Lyneham:

BATTLE lines are being drawn in the fight to keep RAF Lyneham open.

Shadow Defence Minister James Gray warned last week the base was under threat if Brize Norton in Oxfordshire is chosen as the home of a new transport fleet. Now Mr Gray, who is also the MP for North Wilts, is forming an action plan and his first step is to meet Adam Ingram, the Armed Forces Minister.

"This is the biggest single threat to my constituency and I will be constantly speaking to civil servants and ministers at every chance. We can win this," said Mr Gray. He also wants to encourage the formation of a local committee which could respond to the inquiry.

"We need to look at the military and local implications of what has been suggested. There are hundreds of people employed at the base and hundreds of families who could be affected. We must act now," he said. RAF Lyneham has been at the centre of numerous war efforts for more than 60 years. But its role is being reviewed by the Ministry of Defence. Lyneham is one of the Royal Air Force's biggest and busiest air bases, operating 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. It has four squadrons * 24, 30, 47 and LXX and each has more than 20 crews. But its future is uncertain following an announcement that a review will look into where is the most cost effective place to base the new A400M aircraft. Action to save the base will also include a public meeting, a call for a special debate in the House of Commons, a meeting with Tory MP David Cameron, whose Witney constituency takes in Brize Norton and one with Lyneham Station Commander Steve Duffill.

Uncertainty over the base's future has rocked people in Lyneham as well as those stationed there many years ago. Len Moore of Stonelea Close, Chippenham, was a chief technician for the Line Servicing Squadron at the base in the late 1960s and early 1970s. He said the news had made him feel very uptight and he has already written a letter to Mr Gray. Mr Moore said the issues had not been thought through at all and there were many reasons why the move would be a disaster.

"The airfield is convenient for the Army at Warminster * Brize Norton is a further 34 miles north," he said. "The base also provides many ex-servicemen living in the area with jobs and if the planes are moved it could mean a 70-mile round trip for many. If they close Lyneham the air force will be extinct in the county and that is tragic," Mr Moore added.

Through Lyneham Old Boys Association Mr Moore keeps in regular contact with other men who were based at Lyneham. Gerry Tripp, 66, of Audley Avenue, Chippenham, was also a chief technician. He was stationed at Lyneham for three years during the 1950s and then again in the 1970s. "It will be such a shame and I personally hope the base doesn't close," said Mr Tripp. >>

That is, of course, if the A400M 'Bristol Bureaucrat' ever becomes more than so many lines of code on Airboooooos' computers!

[Flatus Veteranus]

Mail on Sunday 25 Nov 01, page 7:-

RAF's Three Largest Bases Face the Axe - - Bob Graham "defence correspondent".

"The RAF's three largest airbases - including two at the centre of the war against terrorism - face the threat of closure in a major cost-cutting exercise ordered by the Treasury, the Mail on Sunday can reveal.
RAF Lyneham in Wiltshire, RAF Brize Norton in Oxfordshire, and RAF St Mawgan in Cornwall have been put on notice by the government.
A "Strategy Review" of the three bases, which together employ nearly 6,500 Air Force personnel and more than 1,500 civilians, has been ordered by the Ministry of Defence.
A senior Defence source said: "The purpose is to scale down the number of air bases throughout the country and, effectively, find ways of closing the largest and most costly. Part of the thinking inevitably will be the amount of money that can be raised for the Treasury by selling the land for such things as housing. The sale of bases in places such as Oxfordshire and Wiltshire will clearly raise a lot of cash".
The review, which begins in a few weeks, will be led by Air Marshal Sir Anthony Bagnall, Commander in Chief of RAF Strike Command, based at High Wycombe. In turn, he and his team will report to Air Chief Marshal Sir Peter Squire, Chief of the Air Staff at the MoD. Finally it is due to be presented to the Treasury next summer.
Shadow Defence Minister James Gray, whose constituency of North Wiltshire covers Lyneham, has started a local campaign to save the base, considered the busiest of the the RAF's 30 throughout Britain.
He said: "Although this very real threat will have a serious impact upon the people who live in the area, it also has a major impact on the future role of the RAF worldwide. We need to look at the military and local implications of what will be considered. There are hundreds od people employed at the base and hundreds of families who could be affected."
In a latter to Mr Gray this week, Armed Forces Minister Adam Ingram said the review "will examine the the most cost-effective location for the Air Transport fleet". He added: "This study is part of the MOD's planning process and I must emphasise that no decision about the future roles of stations has yet been made".
Brize Norton is home to the VC10 passenger fleet - including the mid-air fuel tankers deployed in Afghanistan - and is used by the Royal Family, the Prime Minister and other dignitaries. Tr-Star passenger aircraft also fly from the base, taking squadies to Cyprus and the Falkland Islands. It has 3,113 RAF personnel and more than 600 civilans attached to three squadrons.
All the RAF's Hercules planes operate from Lyneham and have been used to carry vast amounts of cargo to forces in the Middle East. The 2,469 RAF personnel are attached to four squadrons. There are also 750 civilians at the base.
St Mawgan has long been associated with Nimrod anti-submarine aircraft and with air-sea rescue services in the South West, and has one of the longest runways in Europe. There are 750 RAF personnel and around 240 civilians at the Cornish base.
"There are several other bases in the UK which could comfortably accommodate all of them without any problem at all", said a senior MoD source. "We realise that this would be an immense blow to the prestige of the RAF, but the hard fact of life today is that the Treasury has discovered that lots of money can be made by disposing of surplus bases." :(

[Ali Barber]

Maybe their Airships have forgotten. In the not too distant past, during a meeting of the Air Force Board Standing Committee, the then CAS said that the biggest mistake they had ever made was in closing Chiv instead of Valley. Valley was such an unpopular choice of posting that it was agreed that if another base had to be closed then it should be Valley. Maybe they should look up the Minutes of the old AFBSC meetings?

Also, now that tree huggers carry such weight and political correctness is the order of the day, we have to clean up our bases before we can walk away and sell the land at giveaway prices to real estate developers. The last I heard, the cost of clearing up more than exceeded the revenue we/the Treasury would make from any sale. Mind you, if it was the Armed Forces budget that paid for the clear up and the Treasury who got the money from the sale.........

And I can't even spell Sinisism!

[BEagle]

FV - you are herby fined a large quantity of beer for daring to print the name of The Scottish Officer in your post! That is the height of indiscretion - it's as bad as going on to the stage and saying "Does anyone know a Mr Macb*th?"

Seriously though, the best financial savings could be made by flogging off the Monastery of Doom's main building and relocating all the brass hats....to V****y!!

Would the Army sell off Chelsea Barracks? Or Sandhurst?? Someone's got to get a reality check here!! Admittedly not much goes on at St Mawgan these days, but the other bases mentioned are pretty well bursting at the seams as it is. Add to that the cost of any new buildings which must meet current legislation rather than the decaying WWII infrastructure most people have to put up with......runway strengthening, hangarage, cargo handling, bulk fuel installations, explosive storage areas, taxiways, domestic accommodation - that's assuming, of course, that there'd be anyone left to fly them. Not many
aircrew families living in the Brize/Lyneham area are going to br prepared to move - unless it's to the airlines in a couple of years when they're back up to strength.

Treasury -$od off! B£oody well pay up and shut the f*ck up - we're the ones always called upon to join in Tony's little adventures and so far we've had bug ger all thanks for it!

[ 25 November 2001: Message edited by: BEagle ]

[Paul Wesson]

Below is a copy of D/MIN(AF)/AI/2/16/1 dated 9th November 2001 from Rt Hon Adam Ingram JP MP, Minister of State for the Armed Forces to David Cameron, MP for Witney. David Cameron copied it, quite correctly, to the Chief Executive of West Oxfordshire Diistrict Council who copied it to me as a local District Councillor. I represent Carterton South, the District Ward that includes RAF BZN. It appears to be the same letter that the newspapers have had sight of. I hope this clarifies the issue for the time being.

"I am writing to let you know about a study which the Royal Air Force has embarked upon to consider the future roles of RAF Brize Norton, RAF Lyneham and RAF St Mawgan.

The need for the study has been driven by the arrival of new types of aircraft over the remainder of the decade. As you know, the MOD has decided to buy 25 A400M aircraft which, along with the C130J Hercules aircraft, will form the RAF's Air Transport Fleet. The Future Strategic Tanker Aircraft is also due in service as a replacement for the Tristar and VC 10 fleets.

The study will examine the most cost-effective location(s) for the Air Transport Fleet. This decision will need to take account to a large extent on the outcome of the competition for the Future Strategic Tanker Aircraft, and the decision on where those aircraft will be based. The initial stage of the study will identify the most suitable base for the A400M aircraft. The study will also explore the opportunities for commercial development at both stations, as well as RAF St Mawgam (where some spare capacity also exists), in the light of decisions taken about the location of these units.

This study is a normal part of the MOD's planning process. I must emphasise that no decision about the future roles of the stations has yet been made and the study will take several months to complete. I would intend that the study team consult the local councils in each area. Any recommendations arising from the study will be subject to consultation in the normal way.

I will write to you again as soon as the first stage of the study is complete and the basing for the A400M is chosen."

I must emphasise that I have copied the letter verbatim. It is not my fault that the Minister of State can't spell TriStar, hasn't heard of the C-17 and is incapable of stringing together a cohesive letter. The third paragraph, whatever it may mean, is, truly, the Minister's own work. :rolleyes:

[ 25 November 2001: Message edited by: Paul Wesson ]

[BEagle]

Thanks for that, Paul.

I do smell something a bit odd here - has your council been told where the FSTA bidding consortia intend to base the aircraft IF the wretched PFI goes ahead?

I note that the Bristol Bureaucrat has a very high T-tail. So it probably won't fit into a Lyneham hangar? Regarding commercial exploitation, surely the aerodrome with the best road/rail links would be the best bet for future non-military development? Particularly if it already had two runways (albeit one rather short - and bent!) and controlled airspace already abutting the airways system.

Perhaps the future will see Swindon International (or, for Ryanair, London (Swindon) Airport) having a small group of C130Js parked amongst the civil airliners with FSTA and A400M at Brize? Or, even better, forget 25 A400M and use full-up non-PFI FSTA aircraft in the tanker-transport role and more C-17s for both strategic airlifting and tactical roles?

[Top girl]

Heard a rumour (or several!) that Odiham was up for closure as well. The MoD seem to think that because house prices in the outer London area are becoming so high, they can make a a few bucks by flogging off Odiham for "residential development", and move the Chinook fleet down to Yeovilton. What??!
Methinks it could be another fantastic plan to make the treasury some money, which in a couple of years, will suddenly seem rather stupid.... :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

[Rude C'man]

Top Girl , are you blonde? thoust does talk some crap .
Close Odiham , no , move the mighty Wokka fleet yes . JHC was tasked with shaving a large sum of wonga off it's budget, one of the options is to move the fleet to Yeovilton.( the decision is at ministerial level at the moment) As for as for flogging Odiham, for use of housing, well my dear that's all bollox. A) It's not owned by the MOD and B) Its green belt and C) Theres a rumour of the Army taking it over .
Please read the threads on this site regardnig the matter before you post tittle tattle.
Go put the kettle on make the tea and wash up will you, my dear.... :rolleyes:

[ 25 November 2001: Message edited by: Rude C'man ]

[ 25 November 2001: Message edited by: Rude C'man ]

[kbf1]

Beages, i wouldn't speculate about RMAS too publicly, rumours are already running around about what the MoD might do with Victory College now that Jnr Div has moved out. Since the demise of the SMC/SGC/WSC into the CCC Victory has lacked a clear and distinct role, so I suspect the mandarins are already thinking the unthinkable.

I don't suppose that it has crossed the mind of Geoff Poon (tang) that the whole point of Lyneham as a logistics base is that it serves the SE and SW of England, where incidentally, the bulk of the most deployed army units are based. Common sense might suggest that Brize and Lyneham are best placed to serve the needs of the ARRF, UN et al.

The rumours about Odiham going to the AAC has been mooted before, and no doubt will be mooted again. It's hard to see the army going in there without having to lose a camp somewhere else in the UK.

Head up @rse MoD?

[Ed Roddington]

Haven't you heard....

Heathrow Terminal 6 = Brize Norton

[Paul Wesson]

Beags

Officially we are told that both FSTA consortia prefer the BZN option. Meetings have taken place between the District Council executive and one of the groups, whilst Brown & Root (in the person of Jim Coates) did a public presentation to Carterton Town Council. As you know, key players from the consortia have also been wined and dined on station at BZN several times.

Both consortia have a partial civilianisation plan included in their options. This could presumably be affected if a whole load of C130Js/A400Ms turn up at BZN. If everything moved south of the M4 then I suppose a full civilianisation of BZN would be a goer apart from the complete lack of infrastructure to support BZN/Terminal 6. This could be rectified and we will know about the options for railways in the next few weeks. The pre-feasibility study is with the County Council and District Council as I type.

I don't know whether the fact that Annington Homes have just put forward a planning application to demolish the 22 acres of the Northwood Crescent estate in Carterton and rebuild it as modern houses should be considered. I've also had sight of the outline plans for the 40 acres of quarters between Stanmore Crescent and the Burford/Brize Norton Roads. The land is worth £600,000+ per acre once it's cleared. We're looking at between £35+£40 million total. Lucky the MOD sold it for peanuts to a company owned by a Japanese bank.

[vascodegama]

Can't see what all the debate is about. Whatever the make up of the AT/AAR fleets in the future it wont all fit into one Airfield( not one we own anyway) so BZN/LYE are safe. SMG may be a different argument. Mind you there would be volunteers for Nimrod 2010 is KSS closed and the whole lot went south.

[Jackonicko]

If there are too many airfields, then why not move out of those which might one day become the property of the People's Democratic Republic of Jockistani Air Force, and the Royal Taffanian Air Wing.

AFTS from Valley to Chivenor (naturally)
Nimrod from Kinloss to St Mawgan
F3/EF from Leuchars to Wattisham
Tornado GR from Lossie to Honington
AAC from Wattisham to Yeovilton
DARO to Abingdon, or Cosford (or wherever)
Leave the Chinooks be....

[Man-on-the-fence]

This from that esteemed Andrex Substitue the Oxford Mail.

Brize air base in jeopardy


A government review of the future of RAF Brize Norton has sparked anger and fears for jobs and businesses.

Witney MP David Cameron has branded the announcement "insensitive" while servicemen from the base were putting their lives at risk in the conflict in Afghanistan.

Brize Norton, RAF Lyneham, in Wiltshire, and RAF St Mawgan, in Cornwall, have all been put on notice as part of a Ministry of Defence strategy review of major air bases.

Brize Norton has about 3,500 personnel, 500 of whom are civilian workers from the surrounding area.

Businesses also fear closure would seriously hit the local economy.

Lester Giles, partner in Giles Sports shop in Alvescot Road, Carterton, said today: "This sounds serious and has to be worrying. A lot of people depend on the base for work -- there is no other major employer in the area. The whole economy would be devastated if we lost Brize Norton. It pumps loads of money into local shops and businesses."

Carterton Town Mayor Joe Walcott said: "Whenever doubts about the base's future raised there are serious worries for people in the town."

The Mail on Sunday newspaper yesterday quoted an unnamed "senior defence source" as saying the review was ordered by the Treasury to raise cash through development for housing.

Mr Cameron said today: "If what the source says is true, then it is disturbing. If not true, the source should be named and fired."

He is planning to ask for a statement on the issue from Armed Forces Minister Adam Ingram.

"I will do everything I can to promote Brize Norton as an air base. It is one of the largest and longest standing and has a central role in the defence of this country," said Mr Cameron.

"The world has changed since September 11 and become more dangerous. I find it staggering and insensitive that this has come out while we have airmen and crews overseas defending our vital interests.

"This is the wrong time. It just creates uncertainty and rumour."

The review, which begins in a few weeks, is being led by senior air chiefs. News of it was given in a letter over the weekend to West Oxfordshire District Council.

Cabinet leader, Mr Barry Norton, said: "This is out of the blue, a bombshell. I have asked the Chief Executive to make sure we are kept informed at all stages."

The new uncertainty over the West Oxfordshire base follows previous worries about its viability with the phasing out of Tristar and VC10 jets used for mid-air refuelling of fighter aircraft - their current role in Afghanistan.

But that fear has subsided with both commercial bidders for the new generation of tanker planes opting for Brize as the home base.

Oh really!!!! :rolleyes:
I must admit I'm with Beags on this, Scrap the PFI bit of FSTA, dump the AwhateveritisthisweekM, buy B767 tankers and more C-17's. And more importantly stop trying to get a Quart out of a Pint Pot and fund the Armed Forces properly. :mad:

[Sven Sixtoo]

If they shut St Mawgan, does that mean that the centralised servicing of the RAF SAR fleet could be done somewhere central?

How about Doncaster International?

[D-IFF_ident]

Are we looking to save money?

Then CLOSE MPA!

[Doctor Cruces]

P'rhaps their Airships don't know, but lots of large aircraft plus lots of needed support staff equals large expensive base.

So lets add to the expense by closing it down, moving it elsewhere and making the new base as large and expensive as the one we just left.

Makes sense to me!

Doc C :D

[Whipping Boy's SATCO]

How about closing bases beginning with Al?

Think about how much money/morale we would save.

[Flatus Veteranus]

I imagine Gordon Brown has done some quick sums on the price of land (with planning consent) in Oxford and Wilts and compared it with (eg) Lincoln, where there seem to be at least two under-utilised airfields where many large aircraft used to be based. He thinks he can make a killing by flogging off BZN and LYE.
Personally I think it obscene that any more large scale residential developments can be contemplated in Southern England, where the crowding and crumbling infrastructure are a disgrace. I believe that military airfields, which are less intensively utilised then their civvy counterparts, are less damaging to the rural environment than residential devlopments, and I have written to warn the Campaign for the Preservation of Rural England (CPRE), of which I am a member.
When I was in Plans at Strike (ha! ha!) we used to defend St Mawgan (and Manston and Lossie) by insisting on having a MDA at the extremities of the Island, on the basis that however badly Met screwed up, they could not conjure up a weather system that put these three airfields out at the same time.

[beamer]

OK so why close Lyneham ? Never was much good a Perf A but as I remember Lye is built
on a hill with a big drop at one end and
a main road and housing at the other. The
main runway is short by modern standards and
has no room to be significantly lengthened.
When the A400M arrives, would it have the
max-mass performance to compensate for the
runway length at Lye ? Better surely to put
it into Bzn with a much longer not to mention wider runway; while we are at it why
not pop the J's in there as well - keep all
the AT assets together with a tad of tanking
thrown in.

James Gray MP quite naturally is looking for
headlines in respect of job closures at Lye.
I would suggest however that it is more than
likely that the Army would move in thus MOD
be able to dispose of Hullavington and South
Cerney for commercial/residential development. The airfield facilities at Lye
would be kept intact a la Honnington and Wattisham - nice and handy for exercises on
the Plain.

One thing is for certain - any sign of major
rebuilding is certain to guarantee closure
as my stints at Fenton and Chivenor in days
gone by proved quite clearly.

[moggie]

Surely st Mawgan should be the one to go? What it is ACTUALLY used for that could not be done from BZN or LYE?

You could build a real holiday camp on it and that would put more money into the local economy than the current, MoD holiday camp does!

it is only about 15min closer to the Atlantic than LYE and a damn sight closer than KSS.
If you add up the figures, shutting LYE or BZN doesn't tally - 50 or so Hercs/A400M. Half a dozen C17, 15 or so tankers and you could put the Nimrods in there, too, if wanted.

So, pull out of Cornwall (or better still, pull out of Wales and give the Hawks that lovely big runway to play with - easy formation landings!).

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Yes but Moggie there is something rather big, rather complex and rather American underneath RAF St Mawgan that rather precludes it from becoming a Butlins. Good move for the poor souls stuck up in Ice Station Kilo though...

WWW

[BEagle]

Close bases that either begin with 'al' - or have 'al' in their name. Like, err, Vall*y?

Oops - perhaps not. Sorry, Coltishall!

[Charlie Luncher]

Vasco dead on the money!

Close bzn give it to branson or whoever

Move the kipper back to their favourite home
and move the tankas n trukas to ice station kilo.
They have had to nice for too long

[Pom Pax]

Read Desert Crash's post Disposal of Lyneham (http://www.pprune.org/cgibin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=46&t=002233)
Only profit for MoD at Brize

Wish I could get the add url thingey right 1st time!

[ 30 November 2001: Message edited by: Pom Pax ]