Treason

[Tonkenna]

SO, should those in the UK who support the Taliban be charged with treason? If not, what should be done?

[tony draper]

Send for Albert Pierpoint.
Although come to think about it, treason used to be hang draw and quarter.

[Jackonicko]

Not a capital offence any more!

But is it even treason? What is treason, legally? Are we at war? Has war been declared? How about if they go out there and fight our allies but somehow claim not to be willing to fight Brit forces?

I'm not trying to be controversial, just asking.

I bet the legal position is interesting.

[Skylark4]

Cancel their citizenship, don`t let them back in the country.
If they want to fight for the Taliban they must want to live under their rules for the rest of their lives, and serve them right too.

Mike W

[Max R8]

All those who wish to fight against their "own" country are traitors, whatever the legal nicities. For me that includes any terrorist organisation (and their supporters) operating against free democratic government, anyone who was an "agent of influence" for the Soviets in the cold war, all those MPs who cross their fingers when taking the oath of allegeance and wives of Kings who commit adultory.

Call me a bluff old fashioned traditionalist but there is a lot to be said for hang-draw-and-quartering.

[Paddington*]

How can it NOT be treason if someone fights against their own country?

If you choose to live in a democratic country you support them. If you disagree with a government's ideas you debate, vote, lobby, educate or whatever. If you still don't like it then you emigrate elsewhere. Fear or violence against a democratic nation should never be condoned.

Skylark4 'if they want to fight for the Taliban they must want to live under their rules for the rest of their lives'. Exactly. They shouldn't then be able to call themselves British or benefit from a free British education, health service, income support, etc.

I'm all for cultural diversity & freedom of thought, speech & religious belief, but it should never be used as an excuse for ignorance & violence.

Max R8, I agree that 'all those who wish to fight against their "own" country are traitors..... that includes any terrorist organisation' BUT how did you then jump to '....and wives of Kings who commit adultory'????!!!! Sorry, can you explain the logic please.

[tony draper]

Queens were not hung drawn and quartered, even if they had commited adultery.
Hang drawn and quartered was a punishment reserved for commoners who commited treason.

[bad livin']

I'm with Skylark and Paddington. Proof of Taliban support in action should result in confiscation of passport, removal of all UK citizenship rights and immediate deportation to Pakistan or Afghanistan - that is if they havent' made themselves CBU fodder first. One can always hope.

[Paddington*]

Tony Draper - Yes. Royalty had a relatively quick & less painful beheading. But anyway I was wondering how adultery could be viewed as treason????!!!

[ 31 October 2001: Message edited by: Paddington* ]

[henry crun]

It might depend on who committed the adultery with who.
I could be confusing it with another offence but I have a feeling that this subject came up when a certain army officer was errr.......... 'seeing' Princess Di.

[BEagle]

...and whatever you do, DON'T call a certain person 'H*rry H***tt'!! Or is it only me who thinks that there's a likeness....

I understand that 3 of these misguided folk who went off to fight for the perpetrators of terror in Afghanistan only lasted a few hours before meeting their maker (or more likely that dude with the horns, pointy tail and toasting fork) courtesy of a US bombing raid.

Oh dear, what a pity, never mind....

[Whipping Boy's SATCO]

I hope someone cancelled their Social Security allowances.

[Gainesy]

BEags,
The question may be cleared up in a few years if young H follows tradition and joins his Pa's Wegiment. :rolleyes:

[Pom Pax]

When capital punishment was first abolished for civil offences it remained an option in the various service acts. If my memory is correct there were still 4 offences which ranked the ultimate penalty including pokeing H.M. but no mention of H.R.H.

Defintly treason if U.K. citizens, if still still foriegn nationals deny reentry.

[Smoketoomuch]

BBC has just shown a whole Afghan hillside erupt shortly after a B-52 passed over, it is to be hoped that some of these 'British citizens' witnessed it at close hand.

[floppyjock]

I would like to take this opportunity to encourage all those that support the Taliban/Bin Liner to go to Afganistan. If what we hear on the news is true, that we are running out of targets. Then your offer of supplying more for our forces to shoot up must be congratulated. Well done.

Floppy

PS Why not take the rest of the family along.
Go on make a day of it.

[gravity victim]

Surely the whole matter of misguided young Brit Muslims heading off to Afghanistan to join the Taliban is perfectly explained by classic Darwinian theory - self-removal from gene pool, and so on. Mr Blunkett should be offering free one-way tickets to Pakistan to these idiots. :mad:

[E cam]

There's been talk of ID cards but it's just a matter of time before we all have an ID chip implanted. Then, hopefully, we can a have a bomb which can home in on the chip of these people!

[Jackonicko]

To sign up for this Jihad seems either incredibly brave or incredibly stupid, and I'm inclined to the latter view.

That being the case, I wonder whether our ire and accusations of treachery shouldn't be directed at those who incite them to go off to become martyrs, and who organise their journeys.

And while we're at it, perhaps also question what it is that has so alienated some of our fellow citizens to even consider such a drastic form of action, and how our Moslem population might be better 'kept on board'?

[EESDL]

As British 'Citizens', does that mean that their spouses are entitled to a War Widows pension? Or at least the right to take HMG to court......they've probably been deprived of something along the way.

[misterploppy]

My understanding is that treason is specifically action undertaken to undermine / destroy the British State. I doubt if the actions of a few misguided British citizens electing to fight 'for' Afghanistan could ever present any threat whatsoever to the British State. Therefore, you'd have a hard job making a treason charge stick.

Perhaps they've read EM Forster of Hornblower fame:

"Given the choice of betraying my friend or my country, I hope I'd have the courage to betray my country".

Personally, I'd deny them the right of re-entry to the UK if they survive. If they want an Islamic State, then by all means go and stay in one, but leave us alone.

The unfortunate thing is that we are making such a pig's ear of the propaganda war and there are 1 Billion subscribers to this particular superstition who will feel their loyalties strained. (For the sake of fairness, I regard Islam as no better or worse than the christian superstition: All of this mumbo-jumbo has a hell of a lot to answer for).

[mutt]

In the interest of discussion only :), what is the difference between this catering worker and the loyalists who attacked an 18 year old British soldier in NI last week?


Mutt :)

[Tocsin]

misterploppy - you confused me!

EM Forster - right quote
Hornblower !? - CS Forester, methinks!

[misterploppy]

Tocsin

Damn! Methinks you're right!

[Mike Cusack]

Now wasn't Blunkett proposing legislation against persons inflaming racial and religious hatered. Well that Talinut from Luton on TV the other night inflamed me!! So what are the Police doing about him?

I bet if a Methodist steps upto the podium and says what he thinks they will be down on him like a ton of stones at a Afghani execution!

[Gash Handlin]

What's really confusing me is that these young kids interviewed on the radio say they want to go and fight with the Taliban against the enemies of Islam, surely the people they are most likely to end up fighting against are the various factions in the Northern Alliance... who are also followers of Islam... not such a holy war after all!!

[Gravity Selected]

Just wondering...are these youths from Oldham. You know the ones who've been mistreated and havn't been given the same chances and opportunities as other folk. The ones who havn't been allowed to integrate into our society?

Yeah, let them go. Plenty of opportunities in Afghanistan right now. Crater filler, quantity surveyor (1 bomb, 2 bombs...)...

Bug ger I'm stuck. Any more?

(Edited due to more spleen venting.)

[ 31 October 2001: Message edited by: Gravity Selected ]

[Legalapproach]

Jackonicko:

High Treason

Treason Act 1351:

Declaration of Treasons
Item, whereas diverse opinions have been before this time in what case treason shall be said, and in what not; the King, at the request of the Lords and of the commons, hath made a declaration in the manner as hereafter followeth; that is to say, when a man doth compass or imagine the death of our lord the King, or of our lady his Queen, or of their eldest son and heir; or if a man do violate the King's companion, or the King's eldest daughter unmarried or the wife of the King's eldest son and heir; or if a man do levy war against our lord the King in his realm, or be adherent to the King's enemies in his realm, giving to them aid and comfort in the realm, or elsewhere, and thereof be provably ["provalement"]attainted of open deed by the people of their condition.....and if a man slea the chancellor, treasurer, or the King's justices of the one bench, or the other, justices in eyre, or justices of assize, and all other justices assigned to hear and determine, being in their places doing their offices. And it is to be understood, that in the cases above rehearsed, that ought to be judged treason wich extends to our lord the King and his royal majesty.....

Treason Felony Act 1848

s3 If any person whatsoever shall, within the United Kingdom or without, compass, imagine, invent, devise or intend to deprive or depose our most gracious Lady the Queen.....from the style, honour, or royal name of the imperial crown of the United Kingdom, or of any other of Her Majesty's dominions and countries, or to levy war against Her Majesty... within any part of the United Kingdom, in order by force of constraint to compel Her....to change Her....measures or counsels, or in order to put any force or constraint upon, or in order to intimidate or overawe both houses or either house of parliament, or to move or stir any foreigner or stranger with force to invade the United Kingdom, or any other of Her Majesty's dominions or countries under the obeisance of Her Majesty....and such compassings, imaginations, inventions, devices, or intentions, or any of them, shall express, utter, or declare by publishing any printing or writing....or by any other overt act or deed, every person so offending....shall be liable...to be imprisoned for the term of his or her natural life....

s6 Provided always....that nothing herein shall lessen the force of or in any manner affect anything enacted by the Treason Act 1351.

There could be some interesting legal arguments relating to charges of Treason brought against Brtish subjects fighting for the Taliban. However it should also be born in mind that by virtue of section 9 of the Offences against the Persons Act 1861
'Where any murder or manslaughter shall be committed on land out of the United Kingdom, whether within the Queen's dominions or without, and whether the person killed were a subject of Her Majesty or not, every offence committed by any subject of Her Majesty, in respect of any such case, whether the same shall amount to the offence of murder or manslaughter....may be dealt with, inquired of, tried, determined and punished....in England or Ireland.'

So any British subject killing somebody abroad could be tried for murder or manslaughter in England or Wales.

Mind you they could put up the Tony Martin defence.... Starts new topic and runs "Incominggggggg"

That will be 500 guineas please

[henry crun]

Legalapproach: I never have been very good at understanding these long sentences you legal people seem to delight in constructing, so tell me if I have got this right.

The act 1848 did not lessen or diminish the provisions of the act of 1351, which is, presumably, still in force.
If what I read at the time was correct, if by his own admission a certain army officer did violate the wife of the monarch's son and heir that person would be guilty of treason:
right or wrong ?

[ 31 October 2001: Message edited by: henry crun ]

[ 01 November 2001: Message edited by: henry crun ]

[Sven Sixtoo]

Henry

Alleged, dear chap, alleged. Never convicted, so not guilty.
(But otherwise you are spot on).

[Tonkenna]

Its all very confusing at the moment. There are dozens trying to get into the counry from France (understandable :D ) and then there are loads who want to leave and go and fight (as Gash Handlin says, against fellow muslims?). I suppose if we wanted to be nice, we could do a one for one exchange at the channel tunnel.

I must admit I am starting to get a bit sick of the news coverage of the whole affair now, it does not take long for the press and the public to forget that thousands of innocent people died and that those that started this had no thought for collateral damage (far from it infact). War is hell and innocent people will get hurt, sorry :(

Tonks

[Legalapproach]

Henry

Yes it is still in force.

Yes he would have been guilty of treason if it was true.

He is now safe because under section 5 of the 1695 Treason Act an indictment for that particular offence would have to be brought against him within three years of the treasonable act. :)

[X-QUORK]

Tonks,

I agree with your comment about the media and the way they're covering the situation in Afghanistan....is it me or are the BBC news reports coming from the angle of "The poor and starving people of Afghanistan suffering at the hands of hooligan Western forces" ? C4 news beggars belief.

How about showing repeats of 5000 people being murdered in NY. It sickens me how quickly some people forget why the US/UK are having to target the Taliban, I guess it's a symptom of the Immediate Gratification Age.

Sarah Kennedy, the respected Defence journalist, sorry......early morning broadcaster on BBC Radio 2, was stating that in her opinion the "Generals don't know what they're going to do next....it's all a bit directionless isn't it ?" How the f**k did she come to that conclusion - I wonder if : A)She sits in on the Allied Command O Groups and then forms a rational opinion, or B) Hears a load of guff on the telly and forms an airhead half-arsed opinion ?

Is it me ?
:mad:

[tony draper]

Islamic talking heads whineing about the injustice of western retaliation seem to be getting more than their fair share of media exposure at the momment, Paxman put one of them firmly in his place last night on news night, I love that man, if I could bottle that sneer I could make a fortune. :(

[Descend to What Height?!?]

Legalapproach, has capital punnishment been abolished for high treason? I understood it was still an option, although highly unlikely to be used.
btw, what were the other offenses to which one could lose their heads and could they still do so?
If I remember, was it:
Piracy on the high seas (Could this also aply to aircraft hijack?)
Arson in HM Dockyard (does this still count as they have all be sold off :mad:
Was the last something to do with the Royal Mail and highway robbery?
Just wondering.

Personaly, I would offer anyone who wanted to go the Bin Liner a free one way ticket! :cool:

[Bervie]

Descend to what height - As far as I know the death penalty for treason in the UK was abolished 3 years ago. Got that from an article in the Daily "International" Express on the same topic. Doesnt say why it was abolished though. Maybe it should be reintroduced in this instance, but thats only my opinion.

[exrotarybooty]

Following my successful world best seller 'Memoirs of a Kamikaze Pilot' I am writing it's sequel, a much longer two page book entitled 'Memoirs of a British Taliban Fighter'. ;) I will of course include a history of the war, but need help with some of the detail. When Carpet Bombing was introduced did we bomb their carpets to prevent them praying for more British volunteers, and, having seen a photo of Afghanistan recently, when did the Americans use Agent Orange? :eek:

[Roland Pulfrew]

Personally I would give all those who wished to go a one way ticket, on the condition that they all handed in their British passports at the check-in. Unfortunately, as Tonks says (Hi Tonks How is sunny St Andrews?) they would only appear back at the Chunnel entrance in a few weeks time asking to get back in!!

Interesting to note that all the yooof of certain 'British' towns and cities that a few weeks ago were saying that they were as British as anyone else because they were born here don't seem to be proclaiming it as loudly as before. Now they all seem to be muslims!! Is that a state? Or just a state of mind!

[tony draper]

Wonder what HMG would have done if some of us christians had openly volunteered to go fight for the IRA or Loyalist paramilitaries.

[Paddington*]

As misterploppy said earlier, we shouldn't allow those fighting against the UK & USA the right of re-entry to the UK - but how could we prove what they'd been doing whilst abroad?

I agree with Jackonicko that we should be asking how to better integrate the Moslem population within Britain. Perhaps compulsory English for immigrants would be a good start. The benefit for an immigrant is increased participation in elections and therefore a democratic representation of their views; the benefit for the established population is a loyal fellow citizen who feels included in their community and has a sense of being British first and foremost.

mutt '....what is the difference between this catering worker and the loyalists who attacked an 18 year old British soldier in NI last week?'. None as far as I can see. Has someone said otherwise?

Yes Sugar_Junkie, '.... if we were to deny them access to the country, they would just claim asylum as they would be killed in their own country?' Somehow our immigration laws need to be able to differentiate between freedom of speech and the undermining of a democratic government; we must be able to provide asylum for immigrants under threat of death in their own countries for POLITICAL views and activities whilst ensuring that we don't harbour terrorists. Not sure how we achieve that!!! I do think our immigration laws need updating though. :(

[Legalapproach]

Capital punishment for treason (and all other offences to which it previously applied)was abolished by s 36 of the Crime and Disorder Act 1998. There is no longer any crime punishable by capital punishment within England and Wales.

[24/7]

Shall we move on from the general agreement that these Islamic 'warriors' should be a) barred from re-entering, b) shot and c) burnt at the stake.

How about a bit of white feather work on those 'sportsmen' who pick and choose when they're going to represent their country/club. Cowards, the lot of them.

"I've got a 15 and a half month old child and a 5 month pregnant wife" ........ excuse me! You should be ashamed of yourselves.

Of course the military don't send service-persons if they're in the same position, NOT!!!!

What's that Pte/SAC/Marine/LME/Maj/Lt Cdr/SnrCrab Bloggs? Your wife's pregnant? Nooooooo, we won't send you, you stay home and choose which war you want to take part in, oh, you want to be paid £50,000 a week for the privilege, sure, no problem. And when you've got time go join the rest of the nonces and sissies called English cricket players/Chelsea footballers, etc.

:mad:

[SPIT]

These things went to fight fot the TALIBAN and if they are killed (tough sh**) they will get wa hat they wanted "To be martyr's for their cause, but I hope they are NOT Martyr's in this country.
(2) I saw a mate of big TONY'S on the TV complaining about the use of CBU's, can anyone tell me what else could they use to get the same result??? :confused:

[tony draper]

Napalm, now that would have the luvies wetting their collective knickers. :eek:
Just been a item on the news a reporter was talking to one of these toerags who had come scurrying back to Pakistan very dissalusioned, and no doubt wanting to get home to West Yorkshire double quick.
Hope the special branch are waiting for him, although somehow I doubt it,give the bastard a week and hell be doing the rounds of the breakfast and afternoon tv progs, and selling his story to the bloody Sun.

[ 02 November 2001: Message edited by: tony draper ]

[john du'pruyting]

Look guys, you've got this all wrong. I have a good source who says that these men are in fact double agents, working on behalf of MI6. Once safe and accepted in their new environment they will be able to subvert and destroy the taliban organisation from within. Now, as they are all on our side, perhaps we shouldn't talk about them any more because obviously, if this news got out they would be in a very awkward position with their new friends. Remember....Walls have ears! :cool:

[BackAche]

Spies and bloody treachery. What other Country or "religion" would allow what has happened, without throwing the teddy out of the pram???? Well I am sick to death with all this crap about bombing civilians! huh remember when the US embassy was siezed in Iran??? They interviewed a Russian diplomat at the Russian embassy. They asked him what would have happened if it had been the Russian embassy? He looked at his watch and said it is 2.45pm at 3.pm there would be no Tehran!
See they didnt f**k with the Russians as they knew what would happen, unless we smack the ******s hard then they will keep coming back! If the Traitors to the Crown want to fight for the "wonderful loving Taliban" then can I suggest we start a collection to send them out, I am sure the lads and lasses out there would like some of these "doleites hardened troops" to play with!!!
Do I sound upset.....I am ....If we keep turning the other cheek they will continue to hit it, then expect bloody handouts when all this is over!
Peed off bloke.....

[BEagle]

The KGB, it seems, always played hard rules with any terrorists giving Soviet citizens a hard time.

There was a story concerning the kidnapping of a Soviet citizen in somewhere like Lebanon. The KGB took a dim view of this and asked for his return. Nothing happened. So they rounded up the chief suspect and had a word; he was then sent back to secure the release of their citizen - which he did. Minus his testicles....

[Genghis the Engineer]

Mind you, that's nothing compared to what KGB/GRU was capable of doing to Soviet Citizens at home. Which of-course justifies exactly why we wish to preserve our way of life. I think expulsion is the only appropriate punishment, or exceptionally if they know things they shouldn't lock them up for long enough to make their knowledge useless, then expel them. Hanging them, satisfying though it is, only creates martyrs.

I obviously got the trainees during my brief encounter with the dieing Soviet empire.

Concur with most of what has gone before, although I suspect that getting to know a member of the Royal household a little too closely, is probably only treason if you didn't have their permission ?

G

[bjcc]

A slight side issue this, but here goes. One of the Treason Offences being to wage war on the crown from within the country...does this not cover the activitiesof a group of Galic Gentelmen from a Province of the UK near here?
On the issue of trying our friends who want to become fighter for the Talban....with luck few of them will be able to return to these shores, thus saving an expensive trial and us paying for thier stay in one of HM's Guest houses.

[Archimedes]

Although if any of them are wounded by British forces, we will be expected to a)treat them on the NHS and b) pay compensation.

Beags, the KGB were a little more stylish. They kidnapped the chief suspect's son and then sent daddy little johnny's left testicle in a fur-lined box (OK, I made up the fur-lined bit). Daddy got the message. Soviet citizen was released that afternoon, fully intact.

[Vortex what...ouch!]

I have been surfing to try and get a handle on why the muslims have such a problem with the west.
http://forum.ymuk.net/showthread.php?s=718c70203572274ab8556dc5b0d3d591&threadid=1547

Now I am more confused. I only hope this is not a broad spectrum of muslims!

[Farfrompuken]

Surely the answer's to put them in Government.

Seems to be the thing to do in NI. :cool:

[whowhenwhy]

oooo you cynic! How could you say such a terribly true thing like that in such a public forum? The only thing is guys that as distateful as it is, and as much as what we are doing is right, the fact is that one mans terrorist is anothers freedom fighter. Look around the world there are a LOT of ex-terrorists in power who are now so called respected members of the world community. It's called a convenient memory!!

Things are always worse than they seem!

[Ghost Dancer]

Quite true, in general terms, one person's (being PC here) terrorist is another person's freedom fighter.

However, if you are using unconventional tactics to rid YOUR country of tyranny, that (surely) is quite different from inflicting huge damage on the civilian population of ANOTHER country simply because you don't like them or are jealous of their way of life.

There is also a considerable difference between those who seek to INFLICT huge numbers of civilian casualties (relatively easy to do) and those who seek to AVOID huge numbers of civilian casualties.

:confused: :p

[whowhenwhy]

Just to clear this up, GD, I agree with you completely 100%

Things are always worse than they seem!

[Ghost Dancer]

Thanks w3, I didn't mean to imply that you didn't share similar views, it was meant more as a comment on the appalling way that the propaganda war is being handled.

Terrorism generally has totally dismissed the idea of "civilians" anyway. (I refer to the widespread use of the term "legitimate target").

Anyway, the theme of this forum is treason and, yes, those who go abroad to fight against us and our way of life (imperfect as it is) are most certainly traitors, if they survive and if they can be identified, they should never again be allowed into this country - they clearly do not wish to live by civilised rules.

It is, however, preferrable that those who feel that way go to Afghanistan to fight rather than stay here and fight. (how about assisted passage - if you can find an airline to carry them!!)

Still Keepin' the faith :D :D

[Tarek Nor]

UK supporters of the Taliban or Osama should be rounded up and taken by C130 to Afganistan
to be dropped off, parachutes will be optional. :mad:

[tony draper]

Just been a iten on the news, the Northern Alliance have taken many Taliban prisoners in the latest sweep forward, but they are hunting down and shooting out of hand any Pakistani volunteers they come across, hope they don't miss any of our citizens out there.

[Tir renrie]

Have to agree T D
I remember seeing news reports during the conflict in FRY, (Croatia and Bosnia) referencing all sides killing their own hired mercenary’s and being non to friendly with those captured
belonging to the other.
I hope that we don’t have to deal with to many of these XXXXers trying to get back for similar reasons.
:mad:
(I don’t believe iv just seen a Man U advert in here, is no where sacred anymore? :eek: )

Rant Over.
:eek: