Aircrews are at the end of their tether

[Dan Winterland]

For the benefit of those who do not read the Daily Telegraph, the following letter to the editor was published today in the prime spot:

Aircrews are at the end of their tether.

SIR- While answering allegations that British troops are poorly equipped for the Afghan winter, the Prime Mininster stated on Wednesday that our forces are among the best trained and equipped in the world.

The aircrews operating over Afghanistan lauded in your report "Britain's flying tankers hailed as a godsend" (report. Nov 10), are accommodated in tents on an airport about 50 yards from an active runway. Tents are shared between 16, and the runway is in use 24 hours a day.

Although modern aircraft are relatively quiet machines, the converted airliners of yesteryear that our crews have to make do with are amongst the noisiest in service, and the tents are not noted for their sound-deadening qualities. These conditions, while occaiasionally necessary when working in the field, are unacceptable when suitable accommodation is available nearby.

Flying an airliner is, at times, a highly skilled and deamnding job, which is why commercial airlines accommodate their crews in rooms well insulated from both sound and light, a small price to pay in view of the possible consequences. The effects of fatigue on flight safety have been well researched; indeed they should be clear to anyone who has tried to complete an effective day's work after a night of fitful rest. |The demands and stresses involved in operating an ageing converted airliner, leading large formations of aircraft around an exceedingly busy piece of sky, are obvious. All this is done while regularly being shot at. Given the fatigue built up over days and weeks without a decent night's sleep, the potential for disaster may be easily imagined.

So far we have been lucky. The Taliban have been unable to shoot down any of our aircraft, and low-level, fatigue-related incidents have not yet resulted in accidents, though I hear there have been a few close calls. Should the unthinkable happen in the ensuing weeks and months, I fear it will not come from enemy fire, but from an accidednt of the worst kind: one that we saw coming, could have prevented and did nothing about.

[1.3VStall]

Every time I read something like this my first thought is how glad I am I left after my 20-odd years, even with the downturn in civil aviation - my job is currently classified "at risk".

However, my second thought is invariably sympathy for those who still serve and have to put up with such penny-pinching nonsense. Isn't there an Airship anywhere with the backbone to stand up to the bloody beancounters?

DW - who wrote the letter?

[goldcup]

A well reasoned and heartfelt letter from someone directly affected by this woefully underfunded operation. The Airships, when confronted about the conditions, allegedly muttered about "not being blackmailed over flight safety issues"- a fairly despicable standpoint that will hopefully not come home to roost. This seems to be penny pinching for penny pinching's sake. As stated, hotac IS readily available- indeed, many of those non-aircrew deployed in the op currently reside in hotels. God forbid any major flight safety issues occur, but the current conditions are obviously hastening us down the path towards mishap.

[Ivor Bigwan]

Here,Here!

[oldgit47]

This topic has been brought to the attention of Gp and IFS since the initial exercise started, and what is it with this 16 to a tent, I have shared with 37. I believe the record is 40 to an MFOT, with crews working around the clock shifts and managing up to 120 hours in 21 days. Gps answer to the crew hitting the 28 day hours buffer, was to offer an extension to 150 hours, I believe the crew declined. Whils't we all accept that for operational reasons, we must accept reduced accommodation standards, it is no excuse for driving a coach and horses through the normal peacetime regulations.

[D-IFF_ident]

http://www.dailytelegraph.co.uk/dt?ac=006655648229452&rtmo=V1PGwVVx&atmo=rrrrrrrq&pg=/01/11/23/dt04.html

Apalled - especially to hear that support staff are accommodated in air conditioned hotac. I don't doubt that the last straw is looming fast, and I hope it won't be a tragic loss that opens the eyes of the penny-pinchers. :mad:

[MrBernoulli]

Goldcup, just to clarify, the writer of the letter is now no longer a serviceman - he left the RAF sometime ago. However, his spouse IS still with the RAF and will have been able to tell him about this setup.......as will many of his former service colleagues.

And for the author of the letter:
Good on yer Tony! Lets see the bastards answer this one!

[vascodegama]

No doubt the airship who would "not be blackmailed" would put any loss down to Gross Negigence!

[BEagle]

Indeed, Vasco! Gross Negligence is a phrase which must be haunting him right now!

When the airlines start recruiting again (as they no doubt will very soon if current indications are to be believed), how many people will wait to be treated so badly again in the future!

Well done Tony - let's see what rebuttal comes from The Faceless Ones!

[Tonkenna]

Interesting letter, and so true I am sure. Like the last time this sort of complaint found its way into the paper I have no doubt little (Nothing) will be done.

At least I will not get the blame this time :D :D

Tonks ;)

[BEagle]

Another interesting letter in today's Torygraph:

<< SIR - Unlike President Bush, Tony Blair has not, since September 11, made any significant move towards increasing defence spending.
Yet the account of life for aircrews involved in RAF air tanking operations over Afghanistan highlights the potential dangers from under-resourcing air power.
The Ministry of Defence has already admitted that crews are pushing close to their safety limits of 120 hours flying every 28 days. Normally, aircrew could expect to fly around 250 to 350 hours a year.
A report in the current edition of RAF News claims that the new C-17 heavy lift transport aircraft "is currently operating at 170 per cent of its original RAF authorised flying tasking".
The partial privatisation of the tanking force that is going forward is a policy largely dictated by the Treasury. It is doubtful whether flying these kinds of hours would be possible under a private contract.
It is currently intended to have a smaller overall fleet of dedicated tankers under the privatisation plans. This is despite the growing evidence that air tanking is one of the most essential elements in today's globally mobile fighting forces. Although the awaited tankers will be much welcomed to replace the ageing VC-10s, more, rather than fewer, will be needed if the Government's enthusiasm for "expeditionary operations" continues.
The RAF deserves the best equipment to do the job. Political posturing is not enough. >>

No - I didn't write it!!

[ 24 November 2001: Message edited by: BEagle ]

[MOA]

Heard about crews having a stab at getting into hotels for 3 nights during a heavy flying schedule(39hrs flying with 24hrs off in total!) but were turned down! The officer involved seemed to be in a bit of a hurry to get away.......

Found out that Group Captains and above were all accomodated in hotels and would not let any crews stay in hotels whatever the reason. :mad:

[BEagle]

.......and how much operational flying have 'Group captains and above' actually done in the Afghanistani Theatre? Or is this just another RHIP thing?

Personally I'd give every senior officer PONTI visitor the $hittiest billet I could find....

[Doctor Cruces]

The bottom line truth about this fiasco is that their airships really don't give a monkeys about anything that may actually bring a glimmer of reality into their perception of how thing are.

It has ever been thus and will remain so.

Doc C.

[maniac55]

It begs the question, why are we not in Hotac, could it be money perchance? :eek:

It is a sorry state of affairs when purse strings are more important than flight safety.

I know I've said it before, Royal Accounts & Admin Force, you know it makes sense.

[D-IFF_ident]

'War on terror blows £500m hole in MoD budget' Says the Guardianunlimited website.

'RAF's Three Largest Bases Face the Axe' Reads the Mail on Sunday.

'The MoD and the 'missing' £33m...' Suggests Silicon.com

'Don't forget that there are 4 fighter types, a maritime thingy and a 3 point airborne gas station doing burger all down in the Malvenas' Reminds Mr Proach - at a cost of?

'It's Tommy this and Tommy that' Quoth Rudyard kipling.

Thank goodness there are Agencies and Executives to account for every penny spent.

Still, Stephen Byers gave the go-ahead to the proposed £2.5bn fifth terminal at Heathrow airport this week. An obvious sign that the treasury expects the airline industry to overcome its problems. The same treasury who are considering the retention problems of our aircrew...
:mad:

[Hengist Pod]

Come on guys. Sleeping in a tent is not a flight safety hazard - it's not very pleasant but it's not a flight safety hazard. Multi-engine crews are just too used to hotels to cope when there isn't a bidet in the bathroom and a few porn channels to blow their rates on.

However, kipping next to the runway - that needs to be sorted.

Here endeth today's sermon.

[BEagle]

Hengist - you're partly right. I lived in relative luxury compared with the cr@p of IOT field living when I shared a tent in Germany as a holding officer with the Harrier force many years ago. But the big difference then was that there was a sound reason to live in our 'cammed-up' world and also everyone worked pretty well the same hours. We'd all get woken up at first light as the genny started and the lights came on, at CoP we'd bog off to a nearby army place for a shower and then repair to a schnellie for some bratties und Bier before crashing out for the night.

That's a whole bunch different to the reports I've been hearing of people coming and going at all hours waking most of the others up, camp beds virtually touching eachother and dozens all crammed into the same tent close to the active runway. Some of those coming home have displayed the symptoms of exhaustion and gross fatigue. There's no excuse for such an existence - it's all down to the miserable bean counters! There wasn't any alternative to field living when we were camped out by the Harriers, so tentage was quite appropriate (and plentiful, reasonably comfortable and relatively capacious). There clearly is - just as there was in the Gulf War - a readily available alternative to field conditions at an international airport; the only thing stopping it being used is loss of face by the bean counters who would have to admit defeat.

[ 25 November 2001: Message edited by: BEagle ]

[Mowgli]

I'm not long out of the Service, but often used to get flack from helo people (mostly brownjobs) about why we stayed in hotels. Answer: (cos we can, and any fool can be uncomfortable.)

I have in the past (Cold war era - Tirstrup, Denmark) spent many weeks on exercise living in tents, and it was ok if there was not noise through your sleep hours.

This issue is not about tents versus hotels per se, it is about being able to get some sleep when off duty. It's not about being soft or mollycoddled, it is about flight safety, and making your people feel valued.

I am appalled to hear that while hotac is available, it is being refused to crews who are obviously unable to achieve adequate rest.

There are times in the military when you just have to grin and bear it (at some great risk), but this is not one of them.

And what example is being shown by the senior officers out there? If I was one of them, I would insist on being billeted in the same accom as the guys doing the job. Then I could experience the problems and start making a noise in the right places. But there again, this is partly why I'm no longer "in". The tenets of good leadership ingrained in me at IOT were often at odds with the culture I experienced in higher echelons. :(

[Tonkenna]

Has anyone put a Condor, or open report in? I am sure that the flight safety world would be interested.

Just a thought.

Tonks

[Geronimo 33]

Golly gee! Cmon guys....do you think this war is any different than the rest in history. The staff pukes will be in the hotels and eating off white linen table clothes ,using siverware and getting gongs for it! But the good news is that in the future...when they begin to tell their war stories and hardship tales you get the satisfaction of reminding them of the truth.

You are participating in a war...not a game of jacks...quit your whining and get on with the job. When you get so exhausted that you are dangerous....go to bed! You will...wherever you are when the old bod runs out of gas.

If commercial helicopter pilots can fly a hundred hours per month under current airlaws then the combat crews can do at least the same. The reason you joined is to serve your country and protect our freedoms...if it is a bit uncomfy then do your best to improve your existence as best you can. I did two combat tours in Vietnam so I know what it is to be exhausted, dirty, and pissed off at the system.

My personal best in Vietnam was 18+55 in one day....146 hours in one month...1100 hours in one year....no air con, no hot water, one hot meal per day , a single one week R&R during the year. We started in tents and built our own hooches from stolen materials. I understand your position but that is what combat is all about....people are depending on you....let them down and they do the dying....you aren't supposed to be comfy....just airborne doing your job as best you can. There's no hotels for the grunts and SOG's....plus they live in a really bad neighborhood!

Hang in there...it won't last forever.


;)

[Fixedwingfaggott]

If we're all supposed to be working for the same aim, then why is it that the civvy grd crew from 32(TR)Sqn manage to get hotac down town.?

[ 26 November 2001: Message edited by: Fixedwingfaggott ]

[maniac55]

That's an easy one, a civvy can turn round and say NO, we can't.

[oldgit47]

Tonkenna, Several have gone in. IFS say it is a problem between the crews and Gp. Nothing to do with them. Whle the as****le lickers continue to tell president Bliar that all is well, there are far too many promotions at stake for any of the "middle rankers" yo give a s*it about Flight Safety.

[Farfrompuken]

G-33,

Agree with what you say, me old, but what really grips my $h!t is state of the USAF tentage accommodation that has been set up in a very short timescale. The guys are lucky to have six to a tent, not thirty-one, and have proper aircon, AND laundry facilities!!
I have NO bones about the life style out there, but a big problem with the fact that it would cost a minimal amount to rectify a pretty dire situation.
If we put up our refugees that arrive by the lorry-load into the UK in that kind of situation, the EU Court of Human Rights would eat us for breakfast. :p

[Mad_Mark]

Maybe what is needed is for one fatigued crew (with a captain that has a spine) to turn round one day and say that he, and his crew, have not had adequate sleep and are not fit to fly. You never know, someone may take notice (yeah right :eek: ).

Mad Mark!

[D-IFF_ident]

It's often said that when the Spams deploy the coke machines arrive first. But it would pay dividends for our top brass to take a look at the differences in the quality of life they enjoy. For a relatively small investment the standard of living, morale and, therefore, effectiveness of your forces could be significantly improved.

(Edited for bod spooling)

[ 26 November 2001: Message edited by: D-IFF_ident ]

[Whipping Boy's SATCO]

I know this is an aircrew forum and I know I'm not aircrew. But can I just say its not just aircrew who are at the end of their tether.

[The Gorilla]

Whipping Boy,
Welcome and I agree with you
I do not sit easily in my seat knowing that those who service my aircraft, and in whom I put my lifes's trust, are far more tired than I.

Still if it all goes wrong they can always blame crew error can't they. Oh no of course not,not any more...

" A volunteer is worth 10 pressed men..
But a disgruntled employee can do far more damage than 1000 pressed men"
:mad:

[ 26 November 2001: Message edited by: The Gorilla ]

[Geronimo 33]

Farfrompuken hits the nail on the head! The British have an ingrained trait that begs the statement....."Anyone can be miserable!" I have seen the "muddle through", "oh...this isn't so bad!", "lick upper stiff...I mean stiff upper lip" thing since becoming associated with them. They, as a race of people, find it absolutely impossible to reach for a better standard of living. I have been in bush camps in Iran during the winter without the first parafin heater...no hot water for bathes...lived in staff houses that Ethiopian refugees would have been uncomfortable in....eaten food that would bore a Tibetan goat herder...but as long as they can get snotty assed drunk at night then things are good enough. In Somalia, even when given air conditioners and American rations, did not hook up the aircons and had the unmitigated gall to complain about the quality of the blackberry cobbler! They stood there with sweat running down their noses....swatting at flies...and said..."oh...this isn't so bad!"

A suggestion to you where the US Air Force have the space age tents....enviromental laws forbid the return of that kind of material to the United States....work a deal with the Air Force guys....it will be easier for them to donate them to you than decontaminate and cleanse the equipment prior to shipping it back to the US. That is how we got the swimming pool and huge aircon for the beer tent in Somalia. Be innovative and aggressive about bettering your living conditions....it can be done.

[Pylot]

As if the tent city wasn't bad enough - I hear there's no Living Overseas Allowance being paid due to the extensive 'welfare package'! This consists of a TV, some blueys and a 20 minute phone call home per week. Talk about insult to injury. Don't worry though; if its against the rules, some shiney arse at HQ will rewrite them. Merry Christmas!

[Art Field]

If the situation is such that there is no local accomodation then a decent temporary set up is justified but surely the local hotels are not going to be booked up by any but BBC reporters and other hangers on. This situation is now arising sufficiently often to justify a permanent team who go out and haggle with the hotel managers for very special rates which undoubtably would be available.
Perhaps the problem is that aircrew have left, or have been forced to leave, bean counting and administration to other branches and there is no greater praise than to an administrator than he who can say "Look how much I have saved ".
The argument that you should put up with it because I had to in ******* is as much sense as washing your smalls in the river with a stone rather than using a washing machine, the world has moved on from the Crimea.

[BEagle]

Did you meet Florence Nightingale back in the Crimean War, Art Field?

[X-QUORK]

All this doesn't do much for the RAF's spurious arguements that they'd be better suited to operate Apache than the AAC.

You can't live in hotels at the sharp end gentlemen.

[BEagle]

X-Quork - indeed there is a need for field living up at the front line for assualt helicopter operations, especially as that front line will be an ever changing and fluid demarcation. Expeditionary forward LUPs like Cobra in the Gulf being a prime example.

But that's very different from what is akin to pitching tents next to Heathrow's runways because the bean counters are too mean to pay for the Post House. There's no intrinsic need (unlike the expeditionary assault helicopter example) for such conditions in rear areas; people are being shafted purely due to budgetary meanness and for no critical military reason.

[EESDL]

AT Ops
If a crew know that they are going to be offered this unacceptable accomodation, as verified on numerous occasions, then surely it is up to the AT Sqn to go into bat? I understand that it is an Op, but if acceptable accom is available nearby, especially as the return leg is planned for 14 hrs......
You don't live in tents in Op Palliser!

IFS
It is not good enougth for you to slope their shoulders. What the heck do you think your job is? You have sufficient anecdotal evidence to go into bat. Perhaps we need some stronger 'leaders' at IFS. It's the same as saying that the AvMed guys are powerless to affect transop times (red- eyes etc)when there is no justifiable reason available. Why bother with the FS courses if you don't practice what you preach?

Tolerate this and your children will be next.

[Uncle Ginsters]

Guys,
I'm there - it's not that bad. The real issue here is how much better it could be with so little effort. Once again this appears to be a case of the the Her Majesty's Gimps willingness to Over-commit and then follow up by Under-spending. The Spams -for all their kit - can't wait to get to our bar (The Camel's Hump) every night because that's where the morale is.
Our biggest enemy is ourselves. As already said, we will always want to get the job done, whatever the circumstances, but you can only stretch a string so far.......

Here endeth my BS Spiel,

Uncle G

Best i go and hand wash my flying kit then (which is u/s as they couldn't afford to send out any Squippers :D _

[Talking Radalt]

Talking of sleeping, has any ever even tried to sleep on board any of her Majesty's prison ships? and as for being at the end of my tether I don't even have a tether. Spotty yoof in stores kept it, saying someone else might need it.

[left one o clock]

Yeah I slept on HM Prison Wear once.

[EESDL]

Prime Minister Brown has pledged £100 million to cover the cost of waging war against the Rag-Eds. Just think how many 5 Star hotels the imprest could buy with that.

If there is a legimate reason for being uncomfortable then fine and dandy - get on with it. Wouldn't still be here if I thought like a 'civvy'.
It's only when we have to put up with ****e accom because the powers that be know that we will, so any extra cash can be spent of providing 'Blunties' a 24 hr 'R&R' minibus to run them around Muscat.

[oldgit47]

Nobody has yet commented on the remarks made by Pylot. Here are a few numbers for your consideration.
The imprest manual states that where PIE is not payed, LOA should be. In the early days of the exercise, the Lyneham imprest office paid transit crews the allowance at Thumrait, but were told to desist because "quote". "The extensive welfare package available to the Detachment is also available to them."
LOA in Oman, varies from around £6 per diem for an SAC to £15 for a Gp Capt. So the ba$tar£ ac STC accounts who arbitrarily removed LOA saved the following (approx)during the Exercise:
15,000(people)x 42daysx £9(av daily LOA) =£5,670,000.
Assuming the Operation continues for 6 months with around 4000 personnel there is still another 4000x 30x 6x £9 =£6,480,000 to be saved. Has any of you seen a welfare package worth remotely the £60 per week to you? I certainly haven't.
If you steal on a small scale, you are a larcenist. If you steal on a grand scale you are an economist. So congratulations, sir, you will probably be promoted. Had you merely pilferred all our money you would be in Colchester.
We have all argued the stupidity of the "dense pack" operation of aircrew from tents. This is why no one is prepared to listen.
200(aircrew)x6months(180)x£100(food/acc)= lots.
Get the message. Noboby cares about flight safety or operational efficiency or crew comfort. If they did care and field operations were essential, do you really think that after 4 months we couldn't find portocabins or more tents or at least something better than the " boil in a bag showers" It is all down to £sd.
As for Gp and IFS, they have been spineless throughout. We have far too many Koalas at the top of the tree telling Buff and his cronies how happy we all are and no one listening.

[The Gorilla]

I absolutely concur especially about IFS. I submitted a HFOR whilst on SS2. Nothing has been done to alleviate any of the fatigue/crew rest problems that existed to cause my incident!! I will not bother to ever again submit a HFOR. Complete waste of space!!

" A volunteer is woth 10 pressed men.
But a disgruntled employee can do more damge than 1000 pressed men!! :mad: "

[oldgit47]

Pushed to the bottem, again don't you boys care, about beeing cheated by our lords and masters

[oldgit47]

Just re - checked my figures, I have under estimated the ammount of the larceny. The correct field condition LOA is as follows:
SAC £8.86 Sgt £10.56 Master £12.25 Flt Lt £9.81 Gp Capt £14.97. Can't say I understand all the anomolies but the message is clear. Just where is our money?

[Talking Radalt]

Can some one tell the same penny pitching accountant who referred to the "extensive welfare package" in his/her defence of cost-cutting in Oman to ask any of the rotary guys on SS2 what kind of welfare package THEY saw? :mad:

[TURNBULL]

Surely Geri and H were worth £60 to you SS2 heros! Just out of interest what is the allowance package for someone on 'operations' in a safe groundtour in somewhere like Riyadh?

[Perky Penguin]

The state of the RAF may well be due to those at the top kow-towing to Bliar and Brown, not knowing what is really going on and being too bothered about nice soft jobs in industry when they leave, to stand up for the people who do the work and take the rubbish that is dished out in so many aspects of life in the RAF today.

[maniac55]

I think TURNBULL has a point. Does anyone know what allowances/conditions/'Extensive Welfare Package' :D (I'm sorry but that makes me laugh every time I here it, usually from a Senior Officer strangely) other Dets/Ops are receiving?

One of the reasons that keeps being used as to why we are still in tents is, the 'local threat'. B&ll*cks, this is a moderate country with which we have had good relations for a number of years, I've been going to Oman for the past decade and it's one of the best places we get to go to, I'd personally be insulted if I were an Omani. The 'threat' are extremists/terrorists not the nations general population and as such is no greater than at home.

At a recent presentation for the wives the question was asked 'If Saif Sareea had not been going on where would our husbands be staying', replied by the Staish 'Initially they would be in hotels, but would eventually move into tents'. I'd suggest not. It took 2 years to plan SS2 just to prove a point, and we're still in tents to continue proving that point.

I don't think we can argue about staying in tents, as much as I'd like to, but where those tents are is another matter. Another comment from this brief was 'They'll get a good nights sleep every 3rd night because they'll be so knackered' this from someone who has rotated back, if that is not a flight safety issue in itself I hate to think is. :mad: And I don't just refer to us aircrew, the groundies are equally important in flight safety as ourselves. We all need a decent nights rest, it's that simple yet our solution is 'Take some ear plugs'.

Do I sound disillusioned? I am. I don't know where the comment was first made or by whom but, 'It's not about the money' and to a large part it isn't, it's about how we treat and look after our people. Having said that this entire issue of LOA is a disgrace.

Still could be worse.

[ 02 December 2001: Message edited by: maniac55 ]
Edited beacuse I can't speel.
;) ;)

[ 02 December 2001: Message edited by: maniac55 ]

[BEagle]

Now there's a bleat in SROs saying that the RAF's stock of expeditionary equipment such as sleeping bags is becoming critical.....

I also hear that a Big Cheese is demanding that money be spent on 'improvements' for our desert campers, (not HOTAC though.....) but the pongo-in-charge won't budge. Well - what a surprise!

[maniac55]

We were briefed that funds to improve the domestic sight (several million) had been approved but the money would be drip fed instead of getting all the work done at once.

Whoever decided that one must be hoping that this will all finish soon so they can say how much money they saved the RAF, got to be a promotion there for the taking :mad: .

I wonder how bods have 'Career' lights flashing in front of them?

[ 02 December 2001: Message edited by: maniac55 ]
A spell & grammer checker would be really handy. :rolleyes:

[ 02 December 2001: Message edited by: maniac55 ]

[The Eternal JP]

:eek:
I have just come back from the said place that has filled this subject and one the whole the comments are very reasonable. I feel as though I should add some thoughts though.

1. The comments about whinging are completely unfounded as people are putting up with the tents. As mentioned before, it is the quantity of personnel and lack of ac which is making living conditions unbearable. To top this though, the jets getting airborne at all hours are making it impossible to get some sleep.

2. As mentioned before, someone could be brave and say they won't fly due to fatigue. The problem is we are all too proud (or stupid) to do this.

3. Also just starting is the normalisation of the camp. Having a quality assesment eng off is obviously a big help to all the ground troops that are working all hours
to keep us flying.......not! obviously the air rank don't even trust the guys to do their job either any more!!!

To top this all though, I hear AOC2 has decreed that all transit crews are to stay in hotels as they may get too tired in tents. This was shown during end ex of SSII, when all at crews were in fact in hotels when we were paying to have a couple of hours by the pool after being on op sorties........thanks.

Basically, if the situation continues, there will be an accident very soon. I know of several condors and personal letters to IFS, all with no reply. I also know now that there are several people off at the first opportunity, cause they have just had enough after many many happy years in the service.

Wake up and face the facts guys. It will end in tears. Seeing how the US so it across the road has shown what can be done provided with a few penny's. We could lose a lot more than sleep soon.

[BEagle]

So what you're saying seems to be:

1. An exercise was designed called Saif Sareea II. It was supposed to show how the UK could respond quickly to an out of area committment.

2. On 11 Sep, a mad idiot called bin-Laden incited a terrorist outrage on the USA. Unable to compete on miltary terms, his murderers attacked innocent civilians.

3. The decison was made to mount OP VERITAS in support of the US. Coincidentally it was possible to co-locate assets with the exercise SSII players.

4. This caused huge pressure on the barely adequate tent accommodation - which now had to cope with far more people for far longer than originally intended. But the Brits who were involved got on with the job as best they could, as they were eager to do whatever was needed to help those who had adequately capable aircraft to sort out the terrorists in Afghanistan.

5. Saif Sareea II ended, the journos took all their pictures of 'our chaps in the desert' and went home. But the wretched tents stayed.

6. Contrary to all normal Flight Safety, air and groundcrews are still being kept in conditions hitherto unencountered since the Allied TAF pushed through Europe over 50 years ago. Purely due to the MoD beancounters' unwillingness to spend money on adequate creature comforts - which are both plentiful and locally available.

7. But now those who were sent have had enough. They know that they're being ignored and that they're being shafted by their Squirearchy. They also know that it won't be long before the airlines start picking up again; many would like to continue to serve in the RAF, but are utterly and completely disillusioned with the treatment they are receiving for no reasonable military need.

Have I understood what you've been saying correctly, chaps?

[ 02 December 2001: Message edited by: BEagle ]

[Dan Winterland]

Sleeping in a tent as part of a big Ex like SS2 when one of the objectives was to prove that the logistics of mounting such an event is feasible is one thing, however unpopular it may have been. But the Operation mounted on the back of the exercise is another. I suspect the Ex flying rate was not as intense as the Op - on which I gather the crews were flying the max 120 in 28. Cancelling a Ex sortie due to fatigue is no big deal. The Op is different.

The letter which sparked this debate was about the Op. It is inexcuseable to place such pressures on the crews when a viable alternative to the situation which could (and nearly did on one occaision I gather) so severely compromise flight safety.

A CEO of a major airline in the States some years back commented after his airline's third crash in a year "If you think flight safety is expensive - try the cost of an accident!" :eek:

[Henrytut]

Not logged on for a while but fascinated to catch up - I can hardly wait to get back out there. (Not the same as Dubai eh Tony?)
A name for the place - how's about "Camp Somewhere Horrible In The Hot, Omani, Loud Environment".
I had heard that we were paying more for the tents than it would have cost to put us up in hotac - especially considering that most of those not directly working with a/c or ops could then be sent home.
As to the news that civvies are being paid to run this ******** for years to come - how long do HMG expect us to be out there? I know that it could be for quite some time but Mullah Omar's regime don't look too steady and one bomb could do it for bin Liner.
If only I'd done better in pilot training!!!

[maniac55]

God forbid that an accident does happen, but just imagine the field day that the lawyers will have with the RAF.

I honestly believe that it will take a lost aircraft before the upper echelons will take heed. What a sh*te state of affairs.

[Hengist Pod]

This is great entertainment, listening to the bleating of the molly-coddled masses of the fixed-wing world. **** happens guys - get on with it. Didn't you have lazy-man boilers in those 5-star hotels you've been gloating about for years? Well tough t1tty, you have now. Stop f*uckin' whining.

[The Gorilla]

Hengist Pod - You miss the point of this thread, so go some where else you little rotary toad

Mainiac 55 - If an accident happens then all that will happen is our airships will say we have broken crew duty/flight safety rules and the accident was therefore crew error!

We can't win this one, BUT THEY can't win the retention/recruitment one!!

"A volunteer is worth 10 pressed men, but a disgruntled employee can cause more damage than a 1000 pressed men!" ;)

[stbd beam]

As if my wife didn't have enough to worry about with me out the door headed for a conflict, she has to contend with an organisation that is reluctant to afford due care to its own people, is more concerned about the money than about them, doesn't appear to be backing them up through independant means (IFS non replies), but worried aviators are talking here about serious flight safety issues.

She is now "not amused".

Anyone got the number of a good solicitor for in case I don't come home?

[BEagle]

Hengist has been offered reasoned response in the past; regrettably, however, this was obviously wasted effort.

I do not know whether it his lack of education or mere schadenfreude which compels him to write such pointlessly abusive prose as he has penned above. Whichever it might have been, constructive suggestion would have been far more approriate than groundless bile.

Any failure to respond to genuine Flight Safety concern may be considered to be contributory negligence in the event of a future incident if those concerns should prove to have been valid.

[Talking Radalt]

Beagle you are my hero.
Hengist, don't you get it? The reason we get such crap is because we keep ACCEPTING it... :rolleyes:

[sangiovese]

Any of you chaps thought about asking either a parliamentary question or talking to the local MP (one of the safest blue constituencies if I remember correctly)?

After all, the senior arsiffers have to answer to them....

[Ghost Dancer]

Short history lesson/reminder.

1982, another fun-filled Pusser's Holiday in the sun.

Brit basic shelter - 6-man tent to contain said personnel plus kit, immersion suits under the safari bed, or hung on the ridge pole, the rest in holdalls wherever there was(n't) space.

US basic shelter - Concertina City, with AC, showers etc. and space for kit.

CC was erected and functioning within 36 hours of the arrival of the equipment.

It was done then and it wasn't even a US conflict. We (they) learn nothing.

:( :( :(

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I'm sticking my head above the parapet here and will not complain if I get an arrow in the eye.

I would pick up on a point made earlier that perhaps things will only change after a major accident. Heaven forfend.

I sadly think that this is true.

Its all very well for a Johnny Harrier/Roland Rotary type to pipe up about fields ops and flying. They DO NOT perform 12hrs sorties with the fatigue related to such.

The airlines don't want to spend money on decent hotels, reliable staff travel and ensuring their staff have good morale. However a lot - and all the best of them - do so because they have heeded that quote of chilling clarity that is " If you think flight safety is expensive - try an accident. "

The RAF - unique as it is in British Military aviation - may just have to learn that lesson the hard way I believe.

That fact distresses me enormously. Yes, it does. It means the beancounters have won. It means the spirit, ethos and personal character which delivered to us the best Air Force in the world has gone.

I fear it will never return.

WWW

[Dissi Loo Shunned]

Well Wee W. Welshman you asked for an arrow!
I was a "Johnny Harrier" mate on field deployments and believe me, if you think that nights in field accommodation followed by 9 hours strapped to a bang seat on a 6 sortie, cockpit turn, high workload , single seat environment compares in any way to "12 hours" in the transport environment you are sadly mistaken. I know cos I now do that Ultra long haul thing for a living and believe me, its a piece of wee wee in comparison.

For all the rest of you who bleat about the terrible flight safety risks and waiting for a "captain with a backbone" to declare his crew unfit - for gods sake! I thought the Air force I served was a professional outfit. That means if you are not fit to fly, you stand there and declare it, you do notlook for the nearest adult to hold your hand. Grow up and if you don't have the spine to take the pressure of saying to the nearest Grp Cpt why you are not flying then I think we can all see why you're in the transport world! :mad: :mad: :mad:
Partially editted for tooping

[ 03 December 2001: Message edited by: Dissi Loo Shunned ]

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Any fool can be uncomfortable... preparing for WWIII required crews to live in the field. The current situation does not.

WWW

[fat albert]

And I think we can see why you were a Harrier mate....

As for your ultra long haul job I assume it's in a big fluffy 744 that does everything for you and supplies you with a cruise pilot so you can get a bit of kip on the way? Oh, and you had a decent night's sleep in a big fluffy hotel before hand. Piece of wee wee indeed.

Now try it in a 30+ yr old bucket with worse nav kit than most private yachts, carrying more snags than there's space in the 700 to write about having had 8hrs sleep in the last 48 with an 0200 departure for an 8hr leg.

I don't want to get into a willy waving contest here as it's pointless. The gripe is not about field conditions per se but the penny-pinching mindset that allows it to occur when it doesn’t have to. Don't get me wrong, the setup in Thumrait is fine (in my opinion). Same tents, some mess tent, same showers and bogs. Main difference is: only a couple of types operating there (no mixed crew types in same tent) and the accommodation is not on the airfield. I'd happily do a det in Thumrait (no really - go on, send some of us route queens down there - I could do with the hours!) Muscat is multiple types working to totally different schedules all living in the same, small place on an international airport. It is impossible to get any sort of decent kip. Simple as that.

As for "the captains with spine" quip (thanks btw I'll take mine with me next time) this isn't an exercise where it's easy to cry off but an Op where other people are relying on you to do your job. I'm sure loads of the crews (FJ/multi etc) cried off sorties during the Gulf, Boz and Kos etc etc because they were a bit sleepy. Of course they didn't. We in the RAF suffer from professional pride and an individual lack of willingness to be the weakest link. We get the job (however menial you may consider it) done. Unfortunately the powers that be know that and are quite happy to use that against us.

I'm a route Herc mate and won't even begin to compare my bubble-wrap hauling, scrabble playing job with that done by the tanker and recce blokes. I imagine, however, they'll have something to say about your analysis of their particular "piece of wee wee" job.
That said, landing a 50 tonne bucket in crap weather having just spent the last 8 hrs trying to keep your eyes open isn’t always a piece of wee wee. Sadly we’re not blessed with triple INs, Vertical Nav autopilots, auto-throttles, auto-ILS, auto-brakes, auto-taxy and auto-****wiping like some people...
:rolleyes:

[Dissi Loo Shunned]

Not entirely surprised you both missed the point. WWW - my point is not that such conditions are acceptable and that people should get on with it. My point is that if conditions do not permit you to fly safely because your rest pattern has been disrupted, you do not fly. I do not go along with the argument that as we're on ops we have to do it - horlicks! Do you think any balaklava'd mate would thank you for flying him into a mountain on an exfil cos you're tired? Get real and realise that if you aren't prepared to stand up and be counted ie refuse to fly until the bean-counters authorise suitable accomm (it needn't be hotac-tents are fine as long as they're properly situated and supported)then you will continue to be trampled on.
Fat Albert - If you read my initial piece you'll see that I never said that the tanker or recce roles were a piece of wee wee - I said that the ULH stuff I do is a piece of wee wee from the point of view of the criticality of fatigue on your effectiveness.
Yes my 744 is very fluffy but the pressure is still on when landing at a strange airfield at night, in a monsoon, with 400 bods down the back and 15 mins hold fuel, knowing that if you get it wrong you're out of a job.
I have much respect for the multicrew world but stand by my assertion that it is more critical in the fast jet(especially single seat) environment when operating under fatigue than in the multi world where by definition you should all be watching each others backs. This does not change the fact that people should not bleat on an anonymous forum about how awful it is when if everybody refused to fly because of flight safety - it would not take more than a few hours-things might happen.
Editted for incompetence.

[ 03 December 2001: Message edited by: Dissi Loo Shunned ]

[BEagle]

Disi - my experience of the Harrier GR3 world in the field was only as a desk-sucking blotter-jotter holding pilot-cum-site ops off between my Gnat and Hunter courses back in 1975 (ulp!). Your tents were well sorted, sited and supported and there weren't many of us to a tent. Plus we all rose at dawn and stacked at dusk; you guys worked in an exceptionally demanding environment, but if I remember right it was a STO off the MEXE or grass, about 25 mins airborne and then either a RVL back or VL on the pad, followed by a cockpit turn and re-tasking with perhaps a quick bite - the cycle repeated up to 5 times a day? Very hot, hard work in an unforgiving but very well supported world.

But Bona Mates were very high profile and We had them, but They didn't. The Harrier was an utter revolution and the ultimate aspiration of most wannabee fighter pilots. Contrast that to this farce in Onan (Freudian slip!); our Squirearchy apparently don't give a stuff - or, if they do, they've achieved b*gger all to improve matters. No UK fast jets involved, no interest. That's the way it seems to many!!

[Hengist Pod]

BEagle

How little you know - but how much you think you know.

[BEagle]

Thank you for your constructive comment. The point of which eludes me.

[Dan Winterland]

Dissi - it's you who's missing the point. There is an alternative to this unsuitable accommodation, which for financial reasons is not being used. The net result could (and nearly has been) an avoidable accident.

This goes against all we have learned from expensive mistakes in the past. If there was no alternative, that would be a different thing.

PS. I was involved in a similar op in the same aircraft with similar flying rates once. It was knackering despite getting plenty of rest in a 5* hotel. Last month I did 93 hours in a 744. Piece of wee wee in comparison.

[Talking Radalt]

Err, Wee Weasley Viet-taff insurgent...
"Its all very well for a Johnny Harrier/Roland Rotary type to pipe up about fields ops and flying. They DO NOT perform 12hrs sorties with the fatigue related to such."
News to me, ****. You think choppers only go for quick 30 minutes whazzes when there's entire ships to unload, injured climbers to find or 1000 troops to rotate through Aldergrove? And I also guarantee the noise , vibration and light levels in any helicopter are far far far worse than in what ever flying playbus you operate. :p

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Talking Radalt - you might have a point there.

WWW

[sangiovese]

This thread appears to be getting rather childish. Stories of living in squalor and 'I had it harder than you, living in t'shoebox in t'road' are not going to help.

The basic fact lies in that we have been let down. Granted the AT/AAR fleet has lived in nice hotels in the past, but that is no reason that now we should pay for it. The demand is not for 5* accomodation. It is simply for a decent nights sleep, tent, hut or hotel, but not next to an active runway during real-world, maximum tasking ops.

We have been let down by all. And if the stories of Condors and HF reports not being answered are true, then the goodwill of the IFS organisation and its impartiality in preventing accidents has been lost. FJ, RW or ME we should be supporting each other in this. We should be helping each other as a team in geting hygienic, reasonable conditions.

This is likely to be the first of many ops under the banner of fighting terror. If we don't beat the budget managers now, then when or if the FJ or RW world gets heavily involved, don't come crying on here about having it hard. The precedence will have been set. And if we were seen to live with it, then so will you.

[noprobs]

There still seems to be a strange void between most of the complainers here and those they perceive as "the powers that be". To see criticism of "the Squirearchy" in a post that concedes the value of the old Harrier Force is particularly odd. In those heady RAFG days in 75, the head of the Squirearchy was a flight commander on 3(F), living in a tent like the rest of the pilots. If that wasn't enough to teach him the value of seeking home comforts for the troops, read about how he got his DFC; living in a tin box that is the prime target for revenge when you're not out getting shot at from the ground also teaches the value of adequate rest facilities.

And if you think the staff officers at Group aren't doing the business, tell PMA you want to swap places. Let the desk officers suffer some hardship, while you show your mates how to get it sorted. The reason operators are put in those staff positions is just so that these things can be dealt with by someone who understands.

[Dissi Loo Shunned]

Chaps, please go back and read my two previous posts when passions aren't running high and you will see that I most certainly do not advocate living in such conditions. I merely point out that as professional aviators, the individual has the ultimate responsibility for his/her declaration of fitness to fly.
Dan Wint-it is because there is other suitable accomm. that makes this issue all the more critical. If there was no alternative then their arseships might have a leg to stand on when ordering you to get on with it. As it is, if everyone - not the Detco,not the captains,not just the pilots said "I'm sorry but due to a disrupted sleep pattern as a result of the living conditions, I am not fit to fly", then something would be done. Show me the Grp Capt who would order his crews to fly when they have declared themselves unfit to do so. If your argument is "well that would be the end of my career", I would say that if things are as bad as are reported (and I'm sure that they are), then your little pink bottom doesn't mean as much to you as mine does to me!
Beagle - thanks for your comments. I think you got my point that all types encounter different environmental stressors at different times - notice, different not less or more. I objected to WWW's assertion that truckies were the only ones who flew tired.
Lastly, I will state again the core of my argument. No-one should have to accept conditions which compromise their ability to carry out their role safely, if there is no alternative to these conditions (heli FOB for example). If someones' ability is compromised, it is up to them alone, in the first instance, to ensure that themselves, their crew, other operators and lastly their aircraft are not endangered. They do this by declaring themselves unfit to fly. In the current Op there are no excuses for not doing this!

[BEagle]

noprobs - no-one in those 'staff positions' has had to put up with the current squalor in Onan. Dissi has explained things with clarity and others have put the situation into context. But some things I heard yesterday were interesting:

"I've been in the RAF since 1962 and I've never had to tolerate such conditions before" - a chap who has served in most operational theatres and who has been involved in certain events probably still N2K/OSA.

"We were asked how many Gp Air Staff Orders we're having to break to do the Op. We said that it was about 8 or 9" - a member of a returning crew.

"The Big Cheese was made to look in the BFOT. He recoiled in horror at the sight and smell" - another returnee.

"IFS said that it's between the Det and Group - nothing to do with them" - another returnee.

That last remark was distinctly worrying. If it was true and not just a slanderous comment, then things need a shake-up at IFS!

[Fliesty]

I am just about to go out to the place upon which this thread is based and I have read with interest many of the points that have been raised. I think that the idea of standing up and declaring yourself unfit to fly is indeed an ideal! Having spoken to some close friends who have been out there, when the conditions were very poor, they said,
"It is not that easy"!
I understand that the conditions have improved, I will certainly see for myself very shortly. I think that the underlying fact is, and I know that I am essentially repeating what has already been said, that a small amount of money spent by those, who it seems are firmly detached from the situation out there, would indeed make things exponentially better!

I just hope that this "accident", that has regularly been referred to, is not what it takes for things to change significantly and also that it never happens.

[Grimweasel]

It seems as if many have forgotten the fact that they are employed by the Royal Air FORCE! This is a fighting force, not BA. The old crew duty and perfect sleep issue are surely not applicable in time of conflict.

Tank commanders have an equally demanding responsibility in terms of cost of equipmnet etc. They would not dream of raising issues like this.

Having served with all aircraft types in the RAF it becomes apparent that the Transport/AAR fleet have the worst reputations when it comes to HOTAC etc.

It's as if there is a hidden mafia within the RAF protecting their right to drain the tax payer. The HOTAC/ Rates issue always causes a stir. It's because everyone has become so accustomed to it, that when its withdrawn, for what ever reason, they all start whining!

Senior Officers won't do much about it, as they came through the same system and see it as one of their perks.

The rotary lads get on with it, as do the Army. The whining must stop as it's bad for everyone and causes rifts. The alternative is a nice insecure job flying self loading freight for the Airlines.

Gentlemen, show some alligance and unity and lets get on with the job of eliminating terrorist scum!

[JimNich]

Er, Grimweasel, I think you might've missed the point mate. I also think people who use the "time of conflict" spin to excuse blatant disregard for flight safety should maybe go and spend some time with families who've lost nearest and dearest in avoidable accidents. (you don't work for IFS by any chance?) :p

[Farfrompuken]

Weasel of Grimness,

rather than completely repeat myself, I'd like to refer you to my previous post...

The bottom line is that this kind of temporary accom. may well be the way of the future, however we MUST take a leaf out of the 'USAF Guide to Camping'. It really won't involve much more in the way of expense, but for the reduction in fatigue, and increase in morale, it would be money very well spent.

Adios Muchachos

:) :)

[Radar Muppet]

Sorry whingers, gotta agree with Grimweasal. Shut up and get on with it.

[Grimweasel]

Points taken chaps. Yes, if this is the way of the future then we do need to invest in better tentage etc. Issue 12x12 tents are no good, especially in hot climates.

The new way of thinking within the government and MoD indicates that this short notice camping affair will become the norm.

Suppose the alternative is a trip to Cotswold Camping to buy me own!

[fat albert]

FFS

Can nobody see past the hotac/rates crap to the actual nub of the argument here??

Move the tents off the airfield to somewhere quieter. Do not put different types/crews in the same tent. Give people a chance to get some decent sleep.

Blithering on about the army and rotary boys doing it is a waste of your typing and our time.
I could not give a toss where I sleep as long as I can get the chance of getting at least a couple of hours of continuous sleep without a) half the people in the tent getting up and crashing about to go flying and b)BA123 getting airborne about 10ft from my bed!

[Grimweasel]

Is the single living in accomodation at BZN not 50m from the end of the runway?

Try living there for two years!!

[skywatcher]

Having sat on the fence for a while now it's time to get off. It's not the tents or the runway that i think is the problem (after a long night/day trip and being woken at O'christ 00 by jets taking off) It is the support we get from our Seniors/supervisors. (Non crew) They seem afraid to make a decision for the benifit of all. We have crews who don't know what they are doing from one minute to the next because of it. Spend some money on the guys and think about their needs and not on G+T parties (for those in the UK) take in the big picture. Life may get better in the long term. I have no grief with living in a tent. The situation warrants it. But, explain why movers are in hotels not far away while Operational crews are in tents and you may see the point of the argument. Positive leadership is required. It appears that the job is being done despite the leadership not because of it.

"Make it so" :confused:

[Hengist Pod]

Good man grimweasel. Get yourself down there and slap them all very hard - they deserve it. 38 group, or whathever you call yourselves these days, you all need a very big kick in the b0llocks. STOP BLEATING and get on with it.

[Max R8]

How dare you! All those not currently involved in Op Veritas sorties have no right to critisise the views of those doing a bl***y good job out there. If the crews feel they have a problem then it is our duty to LISTEN to the men on the spot!!!! I am more than irate at those imply that the crews on the AAR force are whingers. The force has been directly involved in almost every major air campaign since the Falklands and I think they know when things are not right. I wish the remfs would pay attention to the problem or get some time in!!!

[Whipping Boy's SATCO]

Jumping off the same fence as Skywatcher, I thought I'd put my tuppenceworth back in.
It takes more than a few aircrew to ensure the safety of flight. There are many people who play an integral part in ensuring that aircraft (be it fast pointy things, wobbly heads or AT) operate safely and effectively. All these people need to be sharp and well supported. The problem as I see it is that as soon as anyone mentions the "H" word, they have lost the argument. Having spent a couple of years working in **** with the SH force, I realised that it was actually quite easy to get a good nights sleep even if we were right next to the runway. The answer then, as now, was ear plugs. However, the key point to note is that, whilst we all should accept poor living conditions at the commencement of a deployment, it gets somewhat irritating and demoralising when, 2 months later, the UK military are still living in the same poor conditions whilst all our coalition partners have invested in reasonable and relatively comfortable infrastructure. An example of this was when the RAF det in Albania in 1999 had to beg the Italian Army for use of their mobile shower facilities as the hugely supportive UK Govenment had failed to invest in the most basic of support assets.

[Oops - spelling]

[ 04 December 2001: Message edited by: Whipping Boy's SATCO ]

[regraghead]

depressing stuff from all of you, go to my 'claire short' thread...convince me you are all basically on the same song sheet! :confused:

[Sven Sixtoo]

I'm honestly puzzled. Most airfields are big places. The Middle Eastern ones I've been to were huge. There are obviously reasons you can't move these tents somewhere sensible, and reorganise the allocation to avoid tripping over each other, and sling a few spare 12x12s in the back of the next AT/AAR asset arriving from UK to spread out a bit - otherwise it would have been done. But what are the reasons? Please tell.

[Talking Radalt]

Words fail me.
Although I admit my previous comments to WWW may have appeared to be in the "I'm harder than you" vein, they were intended to jovially point out that every aircraft type/role has it's shortcomings.
Subsequent comments serve to show that there are sadly those who STILL think the "When I were a lad...." argument is sufficient to off-set serious shortcomings in teh whole way we do business when we go camping. If we applied the same argument to our aircraft surely we'd be flying Spitfires,Dakotas, Sunderlands and Belvederes, which actually has a quirky appeal all of it's own, but assumes the same attitude to improvement of our little lot, that attitude being "If it was good enough yesterday, it must be good enough today" and finally to all those who simply plunge their oh-so-noble heads in the sand (no pun intended) and say "Stop bleating and get on with it"....I hope your tree lights fail on Christmas morning. :p

[ORAC]

http://www.despair.com

[fergineer]

Guys you have my sympathy having to live there in tents, I spent 4 years out there and one night in a tent was enough. If the powers to be will not put you in Hotac nd it seems from these posts that they will not, have you tried to get them to move the tents up to Lansab, the RAFO accomadation base 15 mins up the road, at least there you will have some of the home comforts, and I am sure the messes up there would appreciate you being there. During Gulf war 1 there were Nim crews based there in some of the RAFO accomodation. It may not be the best solution it may already have been looked at but if it gives you guys a break it may just be worth looking at.
Thats all.
:cool:

[fat albert]

ORAC - thanks for the link, fantastic :D

[The Gorilla]

Skywatcher -I could not agree with you more.
The leadership, lack of is, exactly the problem here. The idiots we have back at the sqn think that everything is hunky dory and there is no fatigue problem. In addition IFS is NOT doing it's job and I for one will never again submit a condor or human factors report. Yes IFS we are having witch hunts back here in Lincs, so much for your empty promises.

Rules designed for Flight Safety are not being bent, they are being broken. To all those who say "It's down to the individual to refuse to fly etc etc" I say this:
A fine sentiment, but human nature being what it is, it is difficult to carry it out. Especially in the bully boy atmosphere prevailing in theatre at the moment. Day has already stated his policy on this matter.

This thread isn't about aircrew bleating about a lack of Hotac/Rates. It's about providing the best resources for the best Airforce in the world to once again excel. Is it really to much to expect to be able to get a good day/nights sleep whilst on Ops?

We really are lions led by complete imbeciles. Nothing will be done to correct matters and senior officers will continue to lie and cheat to get the job done, whilst looking good.

" A volunteer is worth 10 pressed men, but a disgruntled employee can cause more damage than a 1000 volunteers"
:eek: :eek: :(

[stokie]

I must say that the tent issue is only a problem in the fact that is poorly situated. In times of conflict we have to get on with the job in hand, as the guys on the ground need our support. However, there is no excuse for making things miserable for ourselves and this is where some money should be spent. As was said in an earlier post, there are things that could be done to improve conditions at 4077. In this conflict as in theGulf conflict, there are some of us who would like to go and do the job we have been trained for, instead of sucking the currency/6hrs/SAR tit (which we have also been trained for) back at home.

[Mowgli]

At Incirlik in 92/93, it was very hot. Our ground crew were accommodated in tents, but they had air conditioning, and nearby facilities. On my first detachment there, we (aircrew) were in accom blocks, not air conditioned. The tents were ok. They were well away from the runway. Now, I don't know what this particular airfield is like, but as someone has already mentioned, airfields are BIG places. So, as someone else has already asked, why can't decent tents with good "facilities" be placed in a quiet spot. Guys, for all the arguments about "when I was in tents etc" (and I've been there too), this is just ludicrous. I'm a civvy now, and I want my govt to send our people with the best support there is. Not only for the most important reason of so they can best do their job, but so they know that their countrymen back home give a --it about them. We are expecting these fine people to do a job for us. Come on CAS, for squires sake send the guys some decent tents and put them somewhere they can get some sleep. I despair sometimes.

Good luck you guys, you're in a difficult position, and you shouldn't have to worry about this nonsense.

I could mention cumulative fatigue, and devisiveness, and leading by example. Please stop the willy waving arguments. I'm sure lots of us have a wardrobe of teeshirts. These guys/girls need our support.

[Mowgli]

Yes, I know it should be "divisive", I've just come back from the pub zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[BEagle]

Mowgli - an excellent post. The 'real' tents at Incirlik are still in use and some people have been going there for 10 years now due to the in-theatre mission creep. But, as you rightly stated, they are of sound construction, properly sited and the guys at least have hot water! Messing facilities are also entirely satis - and anyone can get a decent night's sleep.

But the situation in Onan is totally different - and is a festering sore which needs urgent treatment.

Incidentally, now that there's more space in the BFOT, I trust that every visiting senior officer is staying there....

[moggie]

Grimweasel - yes the accom at BZN is close to the runway (but way more than 50m) but it has brick built walls, double glazing, proper beds and 1 man per room (it is also cool enough to be able to sleep in!).

Hengist - the rotary guys do not night fly all night and the camp site area is reasonably quiet at night and as such allows the crews to get some sleep. The chaps who are "whinging" here are sleeping yards from a 24hour per day active runway operating some VERY noisey aeroplanes. Try that, along with a few long sectors.

WWW - you seem to like stirring things up from the comfort of you "STOP-fly" 737. For example on a thread about the spotters in Greece you made a comment about how "hard" the Brits are and how we "don't mind the body bags coming home"! Have you any first hand experience of military ops or have you just seen too many Vietnam war movies?

Yes, the Harrier boys only fly short sorties but a 14hour crew duty day with 6 sectors is pretty rough - especially when you can't go for a walk to the bog. I have been an Ops officer on those deployments many a time and these guys work bloody hard. The sole plus point is the absence of night flying - but 2 weeks of this kind of thing is debilitating.

Now, the point is tyhat any git can be uncomfortable - but lack of sleep (and that is the real issue here) is a MAJOR flight safety hazzard and should not be tolerated. While it is fair to say that there has to be some extra "give" with ops, the loss of an aeroplane and crew due to fatigue puts a hole in your effectiveness for no good reason. Even those crews who stay airborne and alive will have their operational effectiveness compromised by fatigue - NO-ONE works at their best when knackered and those who say they do are hallucinating.

Fatigue+aircrew=potential disaster , not to mention lack of Op effectiveness. It is tempting for those not directly involved or those who think the truckies have it too easy, to forget that the mission is compromised if anyone does not perform at their best in these circumstances. Yes, life is full of sh@t but no-one should have to take it the way the British Military do.

We do this every conflict - from Paras robbing dead Argies of their boots and jackets because ours were crap to Military pilots flying tired old jets while even more tired themselves, and still being expected to perform at 120+ flying hours per 28 days.

WWW will probably never do more than an average of 60 per month because BALPA will back him - there are no unions for the RAF and these flying rates and conditions are f@cking dangerous and their airships should be ashamed of themselves.

[Beeayeate]

It has been many severals since I was in such conditions as are being described in this thread and I would like to say that, for the most part, I agree with the lot of you - there's a world of difference between "hacking-it" and "putting up with it".

One thing nobody has mentioned yet though is the personal health hazard regarding noise. This subject is one I know about as I now have to use a hearing aid after many years "in" (mostly Canberras which shows my age).

"Hearing" is a thing which happens even when you're asleep, so being in close proximity to jet noise can really screw you up for the long term. It can start the long, irreversible slde to hearsight probs when you get older. Now some would say this is a blessing, at least I can turn the world off when it gets too noisy (or irritating), but if I recall, the RAF are duty bound to protect you from sustained high noise levels. So are you all sleeping with your ear defenders on?

[Mmmmnice]

As many of the previous posts have said it's not just the issue of living in s**t; it's too much time getting bored/frustrated 'cos of too few opportunities to do what we are usually there for - aviating. You can only play so much volleyball/speculate over bonuses/swap stories about how much more moolah the fast movers/truckies are getting - so it's settle down for a good old whingeing sesh. There are plenty of luxury fold-out gin palaces available on the market - just try and sleep next to a gas turbine generator that runs 24/7 - earplugs my Aunt Fanny! The days of the SH force being proud of the ability to live in a hole in the road and be deliriously happy are over - to do the job properly we need somewhere comfortable to rest while we write each other up for medals and make up war stories. I really must lay off this extra strength cough syrup Baaaaaaaaaaa

[The Gorilla]

Any one who witnessed buff hoons performance on newsnight tonight will now realise just where our airships get there poor leadership skill examples from!!

[EESDL]

Who do I send my claim form to for my spoilt No 1s?
I got white wash all over them whilst trying to use the rowing machine to row to freedom after the AOCs visit.

[fat albert]

EESDL, couple of points:
a) if you've been anywhere near a rowing machine in the last few days I'll eat that shirt of yours :rolleyes:
b) you're a fine one to talk about whitewash...
c) None of the script came through. Pikey.
d) I'm deep, deep undercover.

Everybody else:
Sorry for using this as a personal message board :eek:

[Uncle Ginsters]

Ladies Please!

Like most posts it seems to me that this one is getting carried away by people who have not even been out here(MCT) yet with sod all work to do in the UK. Here now the issues aren't accomodation, or food or even noise. They are all bearable and we haven't lost a sortie since the beginning of the Op.

For those who don't know, the domestic site is 500m, not 50, from the runway (not that that makes too much difference with VC10s, Nimrods, and Canberras working 24/7).

The conditions were worse at the start but have eased a little now. The REAL annoyance comes when we see the Spams getting things like proper beds with matresses brought in- IMPROVEMENTS!! The RAF camp has been static since SS2 (with the exception of the no. of hangers on, which has gone exponentional!)

The reason this thread started was to give us something to do out here - there are no other ents. All we can do is type nonsense on Pprune, which is usually negative, and gives us a bad, whinging image.

Those of you not in the 2Gp regime, don't listen to these old farts back home who thing they're doing us a favour by whinging on our behalf - they're not!

Toss Camp isn't that bad

;) :cool: :cool:

[D-IFF_ident]

Trying to seperate the wheat from the chaff now, as the thread attracts the loquacious and opinionated. There are real Flight Safety issues here and there are real concerns. As I don't get my opportunity to visit Oman for another month I though I'd try something constructive while I have time on my hands. So, after a brief chat with AMTW I went knocking on the door marked 'FS1' and here is what I found out:

1. AMTW are interested in receiving anything about fatigue related incidents and any feedback about the conditions during the Ex or the Op would be gratefully received. They may be in a position to put some weight behind us if we send them relevant information.

2. The inspector of Flight Safety took very seriously the letter he received from the Canberra crew in theatre. There have been a number of Condors and HFORs received at IFS and they would welcome any more. The Inspector has also been briefed on this thread; he agrees that the situation is far from ideal.

3. The problems started becoming apparent during SSII and IFS started monitoring the situation. After a number of FS issues were raised inquiries were made into improving accommodation and facilities. But, as the tents were part of the exercise, there was little to be done. When the exercise effectively finished and the Op started the number of Condors and HFORs increased and IFS passed their concerns up the chain of command. Please remember that IFS can only advise; they have no real muscle or remit to intervene (so they're not 'being spineless').

4. The Inspector received a very well written letter that set out the situation in detail. He was so concerned about the FS implications that he had his team conduct a few inquiries. This thread then became part of the Inspector's brief. The Inspector, in turn, wrote to CAS, voicing his concern and copying CAS the Canberra letter (and parts of this thread).

5. CAS has written to PJHQ and they are now aware of the problems. It appears that, previous to this letter, PJHQ were only interested in getting aircraft into theatre and concentrating on the mission; they weren't aware of the problem.

6. So where does that leave us now? Well, PJHQ are reluctant to spend money, of course. But things will change and soon. Various solutions are being looked at, including HOTAC, local rented accommodation (as in Bahrain) or more tents, but better planned tents - further from the runway, 1 crew to 1 tent, a better infrastructure and generally like the old tent city of PSAB or the current one in Incirlik.

7. IFS are monitoring the situation closely and expect things to be done before Christmas; CAS has suggested to the Inspector that he will put greater pressure on PJHQ if things don't change soon.

8. As an aside, I also saw the TCAS in-service plans in writing. I was particularly interested to note that the money was allocated to the VC10 TCAS implementation in mid 1999. Anyway, expect to see the first TCAS fitted VC10 around June next year.

Finally, IFS are desperate for greater feedback from us all. They want information about Ops all over the world and are particularly interested in 833 radio problems. Also, even if it seems trivial that there are no FRCs on your aircraft, report it; at £25 a throw we can afford more.

[fat albert]

Uncle G
When I was there a couple of weeks ago the issues certainly were noise and accomodation. Mixed crews, different crew duty shifts and lots of noise. If you're there long term then I imagine one might get "used" to it all. 48hr stopovers, on the other hand, are just pants. I'm just repeating old whinging now so I'll shut up.
Looking forward to New Year back in the tents tho'....... :D :D

D-IFF
Glad to hear things are being done. Pity we have to hear about it second hand through this particular medium. :D

[The Eternal JP]

DIFF

I'd like to echo fat alberts comment and thank you for your comments. I have been aware of the said letter as I have been out there twice now. This is the first I have heard that things are being investigated, and again, it is a shame we have to hear it from this thread.

By the way, the second visit to tent city was worse than the first. The catering has gone down hill since contractorisation and the showers....well, I wouldn't put my dog in them!

Could I make one recommendation. For people who get some time off, a local hotac is making a 3 blat charge to make use of their facilities. Most people are using those to relax, have a swim and generally get sain again. Would it be possible for the RAF to pick up the tab for this as it is the little things in life that are making the difference out there. As you will see, there is no gym as such, and most find the gym and pool a good way to unwind and get some rest, which most resent paying for.

......Just a thought.

Can't wait to get out again!!! and already brought a new shower bag!!! :p

[D-IFF_ident]

To be fair, IFS did mention that I could pass-on their position by any medium. I think they're right not to post on this medium themselves, but agree that it would have been nice to hear something through official channels. the author of the letter received a reply and was asked to keep IFS appraised of the situation and anyone else who wants to ask specific questions can find IFS in the phone book.

[Ralf Wiggum]

I do agree with some of what's been said. It's not just a comfort thing, Flight Safety is an issue, even in time of conflict. The issue must be consistant though, not selective.

Seen it a number of times, the Crews getting pie eyed in the Hotac during in OOA, (GDC, Italy for one) within hours of flying. Where's the consistancy?

1st hand witness - seen it with my own blood shot eyes.

[ 07 December 2001: Message edited by: Ralf Wiggum ]

[Chinese Vic]

To pick up on the point that PJHQ weren't aware of the problems before the IFS letter went in - what happened to all the Assessreps that I KNOW included an almost daily diatribe on the state and location of the tented accomodation?
Has someone been filtering out the things they thought people higher up didn't want to hear? Heaven forbid!
I spent seven weeks at Seeb on Veritas/Oracle, and had to sleep with earplugs in every night. Admittedly, the noise was at its worst during SSII (with seven VC-10s that can't help but be extremely loud) but what is frustrating is that nothing has changed, except for the catering....
I'm not aircrew, but fatigued ground crew or mission support staff can make mistakes that have equally catestrophic results as tired aviators.
Have a care, O illustrious leaders - we can only take so much of this.

To those on the Op - fly safe chaps.
CV

(Message sent from another piece of desert....)

[JimNich]

So, D-iff, the story so far as I see it:

People on the ground out there raise flight safety issues with IFS who by way of avoiding actually doing anything about it write a letter (brilliant!). This letter then goes to another abbreviated agency who instantly recognise the urgency of the situation and plough all there resourses into.................ordering an enquirey (great!). Just for good measure and to ensure all the bases are covered another letter is written this time to CAS (even more brilliant!). CAS in turn uses all the executive powers at his disposal to alleviate the problem by writing even more letters to other senior abbreviations.

The upshot of all this is there are a lot of letters circulating (and an ongoing enquiry 'cos they don't really believe it) stating how important it is to try and improve conditions ut in actual fact the net amount of extra resourses made available to the op is.......zero.

Me, cynical? :rolleyes:

[Art Field]

Whilst I must accept the comment that the "not out there" contributers do not know the exact situation, apart from expressing our sympathy as well as admiration of your operational success, I must make the point, which I believe most of us are, that we are in no way surprised by your problems. Why, because on almost every occasion when an out of theatre blow-up occurs the back-up fails to match the operational efficiency. Many will remember OC Admin at Ascension being more worried about white stones round his paths and guys wearing hats than anything else whilst we relied on our US and Saints friends for most everything. Perhaps it is just one more indication that aircrew are no longer looking after themselves and those that should provide the support do not have the same interest?

[The Gorilla]

Arty

And thus it came to pass "Front Line first" it was called. A marvellous plan, along the lines of the SDR. It makes sure that we can rush to different places in the world and then do the job, relying purely on the good will of the people to make up for years of shortfalls.

I am one of those who has submitted to IFS since SS2 and I do now accept that they may well have no muscle. What I cannot accept are the witch hunts going on at unit level to find out who has submitted condors etc
Brings the whole bally system in disrepute and I for one will not submit to IFS again. But know this CinC,if we have a fatigue related accident resulting in loss of life, then you and all the other poor leaders we seem to be stuck with, WILL be held accountable. Your days are numbered!!!!!!!!

"A volunteer is worth 10 pressed men. A single disgruntled employee can do more damage that a 1000 volunteers" :mad: :mad: :mad:

[ 07 December 2001: Message edited by: The Gorilla ]

[ 07 December 2001: Message edited by: The Gorilla ]

[Loopdeloop]

Which, TG, seems to have been the point of the original letter in the Telegraph.
The facts are now in the public domain so when an incident does happen (if?), there can be no "I didn't realise the conditions were that bad" denial from on high.
They're on a very sticky wicket keeping anyone who could have an impact on flight safety in such conditions when it's so unnecessary. This det will be with us for a long time so it needs to be sorted out before it's too late. At least now they have more to balance than the cost of a hull loss Vs the cost of hotac. If there's a nasty accident, and let's hope there's not, then you're probably right. Their days will be numbered.
Sadly this would seem to matter a great deal more to our airships than the duty of care they owe the men and women under their command.

[vipercon]

Well,Just got myself back from MCT only to find myself going again just after Xmas, ho hum, but all I would say to all those whingers, and you know who you are, is, get on with the Job, it's not all bad (Camels Hump??????), ahem, and it's only because we have got used to living in luxury evertime we go away, I remember a time....blah blah blah, no seriously guys and girls, get on with it, keep up the spirits, and carry on flying safe, roll on TCAS and "Green", see you all after Christmas, and all the best if you're stuck out there over the festive period :rolleyes:

[oldgit47]

Eternal JP, If they gave you your LOA entitlement, you would be able to pay for these facilities yourself.

[oldgit47]

One final push on the LOA issue, and then I will bale out until I get another bee in the bonnet. For those of you who didn't read my earlier missives, you are all losing, on average around £70 per week,tax free, in return for "quote", a substantial welfare package. This was achieved for Safe Surria? by some bluntie simply adding a sentence to the Op Order. Appart from the Gerri Halliwell concert did anyone welfare?
How good is your welfare package on Veritas.
The most valuable asset is your phone card: If you phone from a hotel in Oman it costs R1.45 (£2.90) per minute, however if we had access to standard Omantel lines it cost R 0.5 (£1) per minute. It gets better, if you have your loved ones register with Onetel, in UK, they can call you for 45p per minute. With a little forward planning, your "perk" is worth about £15 per week.
Then there is your 30 minutes free internet access per day. Last time I was ther, I had to queue at midnight. Anyway, I write my e-mails off line then transmit/ recieve for hotmail. I am on line for less than one minute, 2 or 3 times a week.
Then of course we have the "well equipped gymnasium" and the newspapers etc.
When we transit Akrotiri we have access to a real gymnasium, swimming pool, beaches, messes, restaurants, pubs, sports pitches for all sports, welfare and sports clubs with unlimited access to Sky. And we still get paid LOA.
Come on boys and girls, we are all being mugged. It is time to stop merely whinging. Make sure that your Flt and Sqn Cdrs are aware that you know. Then raise a stink with your MP. They will be delighted to make the Treasury sqirm, if they are "blue" and you will find them sympathetic, even if they are not.

[D-IFF_ident]

Fatigue not an issue?

Tell that to Gary Hart!

[EESDL]

oldgit47
Had to laugh when Tac Admin Wg handed me a form re-iterating the fact that you had to be an inmate for 7 days to get your phone card!
Guess that will be LOA for transitting crews then.....great for banter!
Like to see on what grounds that they will try to refuse it.

Co, don't lose the original.

[Mike Cusack]

I see US Forces in or over Afghanistan will be given tax breaks (see CNN).... I wonder what UK personnel will get?

[The Eternal JP]

a three week holiday in the luxurious falkland islands!!! :D

[ 15 December 2001: Message edited by: The Eternal JP ]

[Banggearo]

R Supwoods

The Americans have been getting tax breaks for years now just for going to certain bases in the Middle East and other places in the world. Not only that but the tax break is such that if you are in the theater or even fly over it for one day, you get that whole months salary tax free. :confused:

[15/15 flex]

But if you're a Brit on exchange, and toddle off with the host nation, the mighty Adminners in UK stop a portion of your LOA, even though one's better half is still back at home. Ah, the equity of it all....

[maniac55]

The way that the 'Substantial Welfare Package' is put across as the reason as to why we do not receive LOA, would suggest that the package offered is in someway unique and justifies withholding our entitlement. We all know that is not the case and bear in mind you get LOA in Germany and Cyprus, what facilities do they have?

Having read 'Have your say' in the RAF news from 7th Dec, it is more than obvious that there are those who have had no access the vaulted welfare package and having to deal with worse living conditions to those at Seeb etc.

I know of a number of bods currently in theatre who are considering having 'Mr' before their name instead of a rank, and a number have already have made the decision, when will the airships see what is happening to the RAF. :( :( :(

You can only rely on the goodwill and pride of the troops to get the job done no matter what for a short period of time, taking the p*** is eventually detrimental to the cause.

[ 15 December 2001: Message edited by: maniac55 ]

[Talking Radalt]

"Tac Admin Wg"
Sorry I just can't stop laughing at this!
What do they have, DPM ink and specially silenced typewriters?! I can just imagine the dragged-up sandbags and swinging lanterns cluttering the corridors at Jobsworth :rolleyes:

[The Scarlet Pimpernel]

I have to say that these issues have been prevalent for years - they have now been given a wider audience to encompass the AT and refuelling fleet, so will alienate even more individuals. I really do sympathize with the majority of points that have come to light on this thread and welcome you all to the "out of sight, out of mind" club!! :D

[Banggearo]

15/15 Flex

email me at [email protected], I may have some info of interest to you.

[Uncle Ginsters]

The place is now a rolling joke :-

The 'Morale' BFOT has a full suite of leather armchairs, yet we're still showering out of plastic bags (and the guys at TTH are even short of those!),

The Adminners are getting Sundays off when every one else is working 24/7,

and the bar rebuild comes complete with full on dance floor - ingenious i'm sure but since when did 600 blokes in a camp get pissed and start dancing with each other? - or are we now positively encouraging this kind of thing?

What will they come up with next?

:cool:

Uncle G

[oldgit47]

I wonder if some dimwit actualy costed out hire of tents, catering contracts, mega sattelite required for internet etc against simply taking over the local Novotel. Not only do we liive in sh:t, but we are probably paying over the odds for it.

[Chinese Vic]

The tents vs HOTAC issue was costed for Ex SSII, and the tented option is actually more expensive - but the Ex, of course, was intended to be austere. What is not costed are the hidden 'extras' such as the impact on our critically understaffed caterers and other trades. Some of the chefs I spoke to at Seeb are now down to 8 or 9 months between 4 month OOA dets, and if that's not a 'push' factor, I don't know what is!
Before I left Seeb, the talk was of an upgrade to the site costing an estimated 15 million pounds (no, I can't think what they would spend that much on either) but even a fraction of that money would have put the entire Det in HOTAC for some considerable time, especially at the reduced rates the local hotels were charging!
It all goes back to basic fact - if SSII hadn't been going on, we'd never have been operating from tents.
Best wishes for Christmas to the Seeb mob and all those deployed elsewhere.

CV

(Also in the desert)

[ 17 December 2001: Message edited by: Chinese Vic ]

[D-IFF_ident]

According to the Oxford English Dictionary, Austere means 'severely simple and plain'. Is more expensive, less comfortable and potentially unsafe accommodation austere then?

Who runs the fire patrols?

[Chinese Vic]

Now that there are enough to go around, the RAFP do (or at least they should do - actually they spend most of the night sitting in their tent watching videos). When the op first started, the blunties insisted that the op sqns provide fire picquet guards for night shifts! To make a point, I know of at least one sqn boss plus some of his aircrew that stood guard so the troops could get some rest....

[Flatus Veteranus]

And here was I thinking that the Rocks were formed in WW2 to guard airfields without misemploying skilled engineering manpower. The job was beneath the Army's dignity then; I suppose it is beneath the Rock's now? ;)

[moggie]

Good point FV - pity the Rocks don't like to remember it.

All too busy playing with rapier and little tank thingies to actually guard the expensive assets that their branch was formed to protect.

The only time I have ever seen rocks do their actual job was guarding the Harrier field sites in Germany - and to be fair theey did a good job (well, I NEVER saw any Russians!)

[oldgit47]

As Chinese Vic pointed out, there is some sort of improvement plan in place for Muscat. However, the bombing campaign in Afghanistan is being scaled back, so for just how long are we going to need all those tankers, MRR and Recce. Anyone with a brain cell can see that Seeb is a b*llocks AT location for supporting the ground forces. Just how long are we going to keep muddling through.

[JimNich]

OI! Moggie,

the only thing the Rocks did in the field in Germany was to sneak around trying to nick yer SLR whilst you were asleep on guard (that was AFTER you'd set up site and AFTER you'd done your first engine change). You'd get it back but only after they'd stripped it to its component parts and tied it up in a placky bag.

Its a hell of a sight seeing a bunch of blokes running to stand-to carrying black bin liners full of jangling nuts and bolts.

Bet those East Germans were quaking in their boots. :eek: :eek: :eek:

[Hydraulic Palm Tree]

The Scottish Group Captain is due to visit our boys and girls in the near future. Understand that he will be coming out in a slipped Herc through Cyprus and staying in Tent City, just to get a feel for how his minnions have been doing it.

NAH!!

Private 146, staying at the Hyatt and going back in the 146 (half empty!). What outstanding leadership Sir; we all knew that you had this sort of thing in you.

Hope you choke on your Bacardi and Coke.

HPT

[ 20 December 2001: Message edited by: Hydraulic Palm Tree ]</p>

[1.3VStall]

HPT,

Coming out in a slipped Herc in the near future? Don't be silly, that wouldn't allow the t*sser to get back to Blighty for the Christmas cockers p....

"Just been out to see how the chaps are getting on in the Gulf. Doing a wonderful job y'know. True professionals, sky high morale, enjoying excellent field conditions, appreciated that I took time out of my v. busy schedule to visit...drone, drone, blah, blah."

[St Johns Wort]

HTP

How r u mate? Nice sentiments, if u need anything - just ask, know wot I mean!

All the breast,

Singe-on <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

[The Eternal JP]

Merry Xmas to all the guys out in tent city. Hope the showers have been fitted and see you in the new year.

P.s. Chinese vic........where's our b****y t-shirts???!!!

[Chinese Vic]

Aahhh...the t-shirts got 'logisticised'!
.....they were in a laycon that took 3 weeks to get back to that secret base you know where....

Merry Christmas to all at Seeb - enjoy the beer fellas!

[EESDL]

Banggearo,
Now you're even spelling like a septic...theater, indeed...don't forget your roots man.

Have the privelage to take the great Lima Echo for his last ever RAF sortie, after millions of hours, and guess what, we're going West!!!!

No doubt it's the long way round to Muscat. My Apartments 27th, 'kin Utah 28th, then good old Reflections on 29th. Then back to the desert camp in the NY.

Happy Chrimbo everyone and an LOA-free NY

Small claims court?????

[The Gorilla]

is that the Hercules Flt Eng Lima Echo??
<img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

[oldgit47]

EESDL, early Feb I have far more important things to do. ie holiday. Merry Christmas all.

[fat albert]

TG - yes it is.

EESDL - don't you go getting called away now to Op Certain Death or I'll have to Go West instead and we couldn't have that now could we?

Merry Crimble to all you folks stuck somewhere less than delightful this yule.

PS. A special Happy Xmas to the extra crew who arrived in Thumrait this AM. Nice to feel wanted eh? Still, nice to know that someone's got their finger on the pulse....
Lyneham's high standards of organisation come lumbering into view once again......... <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

:) :)

[scroggs]

EEDSL,
off topic, I know, but pass Les my regards. Such a long time on the Albert fleet demands respect - 18 years was enough for me! Hope My Apartments and Reflections are up to your celebrations!

[Banggearo]

EESDL

I know sorry, going to sit down tonight with COD for 1 hrs remedial spelling, happy holida....sorry I mean Happy Chrimbo to you and family, also to all those back at the secret airbase in Wiltshire.

[6nandneutral]

EESDL
Give my regards to Lema Echo