Personal logbook requirements ?

[jaja]

Do we need to cary the old fashioned personal logbook under EASA regulation ?

As there is no requirement for a minimum of 70 hrs each year, only thing an airline captain needs to provide proof for at an ramp inspection would be the 3 landings each 90 days, correct ?

If so, I do not see a need to carry a logbook, or to have a logbook at all.

Just carry the last Roster with your last 3 landings, and you fullfill the requirements.

I am right ?

[Fly380]

When I was working for Big Airways it was all computerised through ACARS. I don't remember anyone ever looking at my logbook ( I believe it's a legal requirement to keep one) but I guess a future employer would want to see it at an interview.

[Denti]

The only thing a flight crew member has to provide on an EASA SAFA check is a current licence (which includes a current medical and nowadays a language proficiency certificate). However some european CAAs want to see a logbook which is however quite unjustified as a flight crew member doesn't have to carry one (according to JAR-FCL 1.080 (a) and (d) (1)).

You can check out information about SAFA checks including current regulations on that subject on the EASA homepage (http://www.easa.europa.eu/ws_prod/s/s_safa.php).

[Dufo]

SAFA according to EASA requires the following:

A20 Flight Crew Licences
• Licenses of personnel :
- Endorsement of certificates and licenses
- Validity of endorsed certificates and licenses
- Language proficiency
- Medical Certificate ( Spare glasses etc)
- Validity of crew licences and appropriate ratings
• Aeroplane flight crew :
- Curtailment of privileges of pilots who have attained
their 60th birthday

So if you're not a student pilot (JAR 1.080), there is no legal requirement to have your personal log book on board the airplane.

Jernej

[jaja]

Thank you DUFO and DENTI

JAR OPS 1 states the requirement for the 3 landings each 90 days + route and aerodrome
competence qualification (e.g. Funchal), but also states that the Operator shall ensure that the pilot fullfill the requirements.
So does that really mean that we as pilots do not need to have/carry a logbook ?? as it is the responsibility of the Operator ?

I see that we do not need to show a logbook at an SAFA inspection (even though that the inspectors always ask to see the logbook !), but I know more pilots who have been requested by the CAA to sent in their logbooks for review/check. Can we just deny that ?

Appreciate your answers !


JAR-OPS 1.970 Recent experience
(a) An operator shall ensure that:
(1) A pilot is not assigned to operate an
aeroplane as part of the minimum certificated
crew, either as pilot flying or pilot non-flying,
unless he has carried out three take-offs and three
landings in the previous 90 days as pilot flying in
an aeroplane, or in a flight simulator, of the same
type/class.
(2) A pilot who does not hold a valid
instrument rating is not assigned to operate an
aeroplane at night as commander unless he has
carried out at least one landing at night in the
preceding 90 days as pilot flying in an aeroplane,
or in a flight simulator, of the same type/class.
(b) The 90 day period prescribed in subparagraphs
(a)(1) and (2) above may be extended up
to a maximum of 120 days by line flying under the
supervision of a Type Rating Instructor or Examiner.
For periods beyond 120 days, the recency
requirement is satisfied by a training flight or use of
a Flight Simulator [of] the aeroplane type to be used.
[Ch. 1, 01.03.98; Amdt. 3, 01.12.01; Amdt. 7, 01.09.04;
Amdt. 9, 01.09.05]

JAR-OPS 1.975 Route and Aerodrome
Competence qualification
(See AMC OPS 1.975)
(a) An operator shall ensure that, prior to being
assigned as commander or as pilot to whom the
conduct of the flight may be delegated by the
commander, the pilot has obtained adequate
knowledge of the route to be flown and of the
aerodromes (including alternates), facilities and
procedures to be used.
(b) The period of validity of the route and
aerodrome competence qualification shall be
12 calendar months in addition to the remainder of:
JAR-OPS 1.965(c) (continued)
SECTION 1 JAR-OPS 1 Subpart N
01.08.06 1-N-6 Amendment 11
(1) The month of qualification; or
(2) The month of the latest operation on
the route or to the aerodrome.
(c) Route and aerodrome competence
qualification shall be revalidated by operating on
theroute or to the aerodrome within the period of
validity prescribed in sub-paragraph (b) above.
(d) If revalidated within the final 3 calendar
months of validity of previous route and aerodrome
competence qualification, the period of validity shall
extend from the date of revalidation until 12 calendar
months from the expiry date of that previous route
and aerodrome competence qualification.
[Ch.

[Dufo]

All training records and checks (OPC, LPC, line check, route competence, duty times..) must on request be presented to the respective authority by training department of your company. Aside of recording your flight time (in any form conforming to 1.080 - paper, electronic, even with chalk on your bathroom wall), you personally don't need to possess any of these documents.

Interesting that you have been asked to show your log book.. I had two SAFA inspection in France and one in Serbia in the last 6 months and they didn't care to ask about it.

CAA can request to have your logs inspected anytime, but not 'on-the-spot'. What is undue delay anyway.. one day.. until next divorce? :ouch:


(d)
Presentation of flight time record

(1) The holder of a licence or a


student pilot shall without undue delay


present his flight time record for inspection


upon request by an authorised representative


of the Authority.


(2) A student pilot shall carry his flight


time record logbook with him on all solo


cross-country flights as evidence of the

required instructor authorisations

It's too valuable (and heavy :E) to be carried around :ok:

[haughtney1]

Ramp checked in GVA and Lugano in the last month (must be the season in switzerland), and no mention of personal logbook...merely the usual + the lugano qualification..which I had.

[K.Whyjelly]

Ramp checked in GVA and Lugano in the last month (must be the season in switzerland), and no mention of personal logbook...merely the usual + the lugano qualification..which I had.

Hi Haughtney..............never been to Lugano and with my current company, never will...........................what exactly is "the Lugano qualification?"

Is it anything like the Saltzberg 'into the valley of death' check???

[Ghostdancer]

EASA issued SAFA ramp Inspection Guidance Material (GM) in July 2009. The only references to "Log Book" is under item A21 which concerns the Journey Log (ref EU OPS 1.1055), and a refrence in the Definitions section regarding the Tech Log.

Flight Crew Licences are covered under item A20 of the GM. There is no material requiring SAFA inspectors to sight your personnal flying log books. I would suggest that certain individuals are taking it upon themselves to do this (and possibly over stepping their remit).

PS JAR OPS 1 suceeded by EU OPS effective last year.:eek: Hope of help.

[jaja]

Thanks for all the answers, but my original question was actually not about personal logbook and SAFA check.

No, I wanted to find out if we need a personal logbook at all under EASA regulation ?

[DFC]

JAR–FCL 1.080 Recording of flight time
(See IEM FCL 1.080)
(a) Details of all flights flown as a pilot shall be kept in a reliable record in a logbook format acceptable to the Authority (see IEM FCL 1.080).
Details of flights flown under JAR–OPS 1, may be recorded in an acceptable computerised format maintained by the operator. In this case
an operator shall make the records of all flights operated by the pilot, including differences and familiarisation training, available on request to the flight crew member concerned.

You do not need to maintain a logbook provided that the company records and retains all the required details for you. Works provided that you never do any flying outside your normal employment eg Private weekend flying.

[Sepp]

But, we in Euroland do not fly under "JAR-OPS" , DFC... its "EU-OPS", which ain't the same thing, similar though it may look. Legally, a different animal.

Yes, FCL rules the roost, somehow - but someone in Eurobosstowers seems not to have read every regualtion fully. Oh dear. One wonders why they didn't think of EU-FCL, whilst they were fooking up the OPS bit.

[DFC]

Sepp,


But, we in Euroland do not fly under "JAR-OPS" , DFC... its "EU-OPS", which ain't the same thing, similar though it may look. Legally, a different animal.

Yes, FCL rules the roost, somehow - but someone in Eurobosstowers seems not to have read every regualtion fully. Oh dear. One wonders why they didn't think of EU-FCL, whilst they were fooking up the OPS bit.


Oh Dear! Do I detect an anti-Europe attitude bolstered by a lack of reading? :D

You have missed two important things - the bit where you were told that where it says JAR-OPS in JAR-FCL you shall take that to mean EU-OPS

and

the fact that EU-FCL already exists at the NPA stage and has generated hours and hours of debate on this and other forums.

[Sepp]

No, you don't.

[boredcounter]

'You do not need to maintain a logbook provided that the company records and retains all the required details for you. Works provided that you never do any flying outside your normal employment eg Private weekend flying.'

I do not doubt this in anyway and am not an aviator but a groundie.

What happens should the recording company, complying with the regulations go bust overnight?

Just my tuppenceworth, but keeping a(n) (honest) logbook, whilst a tedious chore would seem a good back-up, even offering the options of remarks to refresh the memory in years to come of the golden moments. (Engine fails, diverts, delays ;-) )

Bored

[DFC]

What happens should the recording company, complying with the regulations go bust overnight?



Good point. However, just because the company is bust does not mean that the records that they are legally required to retain simply disappear.

Same applies to the accounts, director reports, annual returns, aircraft records, crew records, Health and Safety etc etc etc.

There is provision for people who are in the position of having lost their logbook or had it destroyed to make a Legal Declaration as to their hours. Every 5 years when I renew my licence the Authority takes a photocopy of the last 3 pages of my logbook so worst case scenario is having to remember the last 5 years.............which if you have the ATPL and all the experience requirements for command, instructor, examminer completed many moons ago is not much of a problem anyway.

For all the important issues in commercial flying there is a closed loop containing the TRTO, The AOC Holder and the Authority i.e. you complete your course and the TRTO pass the required paperwork to the AOC holder who pass it to the Authority who check their records and if all is OK post you new page(s) for your licence i.e. you don't have to produce your logbook.

Personally, I have always kept my own logbook because experience has shown that some companies do not record the times correctly i.e. they record times in accordance with National procedures rather than JAR-FCL.

Finally, just because it is legal for the company to act as logbook recorder does not guarantee that it is a good idea!!