Is it just me or...?

[james ozzie]

I am a SEP PPL lapsed (Cutlass/Warrior etc) who used to fly just enough hours to stay dangerous. I recently paid for a sightseeing jolly ride (lets not discuss who or where) and was quite surprised at the way the professional pilot flew. Fired it up, taxied, dropped flap, power on in the turn and away. He was clearly very competent and I in no way felt at risk but I had to compare with my own typical flights: Pax briefing, after start checks inc dead mag cut, taxi to run-up point, mag drop, cycle prop & operate/set all controls with memorised check list, taxi to hold, TO briefing with speeds, line up & check DI / compass before applying power. Check list after TO. In fairness, I know he did many of these things unobtrusively but certainly not all of them. And yes, I have had people behind me keying their mics (which flusters me and makes me start all over again..!)

So, was I working in another world where I did all the checks etc. but in the real world people leave half the stuff out?

[knox]

Hey james ozzie, almost sounds like you flew with me, lol.

I think you'll find the pilot did all run up checks and engine warm prior to your arrival, most operators i know will do one run up at the start of the day.

Knox.

[Maloo]

Hi Ozzie,

Don't worry, keep flying the way you are. As a PPL it is best to be conservative and stay safe. The pilot who did your scenic probably knew the aircraft and airspace like the back of his hand was probably just a run of the mill flight for him. Maybe some mag checks had already been done that day but it is fair to expect them to be done before every take-off as some aircraft don't take much to foul up. He may have known the checklist by heart but again it is fair to expect a proper checklist to be used.

[The Green Goblin]

Agreed,

In the scenic charter ops all the run ups and checks are done prior to the punters arrival so if there is a problem it can be fixed or the aircraft swapped prior to the scheduled departure. I used to still do a quick L & R check prior to lining up as part of my generic TIMPFISH check as I once had a mag failure in a twin which checked fine on the run ups but failed on the taxi out to the runway.

This is also why a PPL up the front can be a hindrance to a commercial flight and start unfair and untruthful rumours about a CPL or the CPL's organization.

I've had PPL's question me in front of the other punters why I am not marking my position on a map at the required intervals (Flying a multi engine IFR charter) and I've had them go bazerk for flying in cloud.

Sometimes it was a nice experience sharing your love of flying with them and explaining what your bells and whistles did, other times it was a down right nuisance (especially when they wanted to have a fly)

Having said that I had a QF 744 skipper and his family once on board and he was very interested in the airvan I was flying and was sitting in the right seat. I offered him the controls and let him fly for the rest of the flight (as it was him and his family on board) He thanked me at the end and said he had not had that much fun flying in 20 years and was now considering buying a lighty for family trips. I got a nice tip at the end of it too :E

GG

[the air up there]

james ozzie, keep sticking to the way you do your checks. What your doing is excellent and you should not change it.

I must agree with GG though. The plane would have most definately been pre-flighted and engine runs carried out prior to your arrival. A commercial pilot in his situation would be doing that flight 3-4 times a day if not more. Even if he/she has only been there 3 months thats alot of flying. It's not complacency, it is confidence and knowledge that has come from repeating procedures many times in a short period of time. There is alot to be said for a pilot with 500hrs that has accrued that time in the last 6 months, and a pilot with 800-1000hrs that has accrued it over 5-10 years.

Another point I must agree with GG on is the PPL pax that try and big note themselves to them friends (am in no way implying that this is you james ozzie:ok:). They are a downright pain in the :mad: just so they can talk themselves up. A smooth flight and good landing normally has their mates/spouse giving them **** about all those hard landings. The stammering responses are music to the CPL's ears.:} Some are w:mad:s, others are genuinly good people that are just curious about how we do things.

[manymak]

During the cruise on a charter a private pilot sitting in row 2 behind me reach over the right hand seat and plugged his headset in without asking! :rolleyes:

[tio540]

Hi james ozzie, your pre-take off system appears to neglect the use of a written checklist to confirm your memory items, prior to take off. Only referring to same after take off. Why is that?

[ZappBrannigan]

I agree with most of the comments so far. If you got on an IFR charter with me flying, the only things you'd really notice me doing after start would be things I couldn't have done before your arrival. You'll obviously notice me doing a control check on the taxi out to the runway, a few items related to the airways clearance (setting AAI, inputting data into GPS etc.) and the usual flicking of switches - but all the main stuff is done before you arrive, e.g. runups, radio and navaid setup, trims etc. All checklists are completed, but generally on the move. There's nothing wrong at all with sitting in the runup bay with a printed checklist on your lap, and if you're relatively inexperienced it's almost certainly the best way to do things - but this isn't the way it's normally done in charter ops, where block-to-block time is all-important. Note, this isn't to say safety or accuracy is compromised in any way - but when you fly 10-20 of these sectors a week, you start to develop an efficient way of doing things that to some onlookers may seem rushed or insufficient.

[james ozzie]

Thanks everyone for the informative responses.

tio540: to clarify, the checklists were all memorised (by mnemonic/nursery rhyme etc) as required by the flight school. The written version of the check lists was not used, though handy in the flight bag/on clip-board in case of memory "freeze".

[Peter Fanelli]

During the cruise on a charter a private pilot sitting in row 2 behind me reach over the right hand seat and plugged his headset in without asking!


Did you not pull out your leatherman and use it to cut the cord?

[FRQ Charlie Bravo]

During the cruise on a charter a private pilot sitting in row 2 behind me reach over the right hand seat and plugged his headset in without asking!

Ruin a perfectly good headset with a leatherman? Nah, just ignore it and then when he tries to take it out at the end of the flight ask why he's trying to steal the company headset. When he says it's his tell him that is a ridiculous notion as no passenger in his right mind would be plugging unapproved equipment into a charter aircraft without asking the PIC. Who knows, maybe you'll get a new headset :ok: dont forget to delouse it.

FRQ CB

[Howard Hughes]

Fired it up, taxied, dropped flap, power on in the turn and away.
Sounds like me in the Kingair, except I don't bother with the flap...;)

PS: Would like to know did he do a passenger brief?

[The Green Goblin]

During the cruise on a charter a private pilot sitting in row 2 behind me reach over the right hand seat and plugged his headset in without asking!

Turn off the intercom or put it on isolate :ok:

[gettin' there]

Turn off the intercom or put it on isolate http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif


Damn. Beat me to it. :E

You always know when you've got a PPL beside you (even if they don't make it known before the flight) when they have paid top money for a scenic flight and spend more time watching you like a hawk than they do looking out the window.

[Pilotette]

I had a supposed PPL sitting next to me on a scenic who pointed and asked "what's the red one for?" :eek: ummm...mixture :ugh:

[b_sta]

Sounds like someone was telling a fib! :=

[Pilotette]

I definitely hope it was a fib...otherwise I'd like to know where he did his training (I didn't bother asking!)...scary!

[PyroTek]

possibly did his PPL training in something like a Jabiru (aka.. no red knob)??
But for sh!t's sake, he should know about the mixture control!

[Van Gough]

You always know when you've got a PPL beside you (even if they don't make it known before the flight) when they have paid top money for a scenic flight and spend more time watching you like a hawk than they do looking out the window.


Not forgetting the ones who wear their ASIC when they are being picked up at a dirt strip in the middle of nowhere :ok:

[The Green Goblin]

On a brighter note most cafes at airports give you a discount as an ASIC holder :ok:

Now thats a lot of meat pies and crap coffee to get your monies worth!

[james ozzie]

Interesting thread drift. I think the bad behaviour of PPLs described above comes down to the bad manners of individuals, not their being PPLs.

There was a note that the PPLs "watch you like hawks" - well, why not? Any pilot would inevitably be looking at the flying of another. I would hope that any Commercial Pilot has the confidence and self-belief to welcome and appreciate that close scrutiny.

(For the record, I did not sit in the front seat on this occasion.)

As a bottom feeder PPL, I was trained to fly EVERY flight as if it was a flight test - to the very best of ones ability and training. It should surely never be anything less? And it makes the real renewal tests that much easier. Not that I did not have to repeat some tests or parts thereof; my training file would show me as an average or below student.

[the air up there]

Not that I did not have to repeat some tests or parts thereof; my training file would show me as an average or below student.

hmmm, considering the standard of some so called hot shot pilots that I've flown with, that quote doesn't mean your a bad or below average pilot. Just means that when you made a mistake there was an ATO next to you. You've made the mistake, learnt from it, hopefully never to make it again. Everything you've said infers that your a safe and competant pilot that is aware of his limitations and doesn't push them. As all pilots should be.

If I want to be impressed by how fantastically well a pilot can throw an aircraft around, I'll buy a DVD of the Roulettes/Red Arrows or other display team.

[j3pipercub]

I was trained to fly EVERY flight as if it was a flight test

I would fail most days, dismally. :} Just keep doing what you do James.

I would hope that any Commercial Pilot has the confidence and self-belief to welcome and appreciate that close scrutiny.

Trouble is, unless the other pilot is qualified on the aircraft, they can't scrutinize and just end up making tools of themselves. I had a headset carrying ppl once, sat up front, luckily the i/c was stuffed. We land and he says that my flying was great but he was disappointed I didn't lean the mixture...I was flying a Caravan...:ugh::ugh::ugh:

j3

[The Green Goblin]

that my flying was great but he was disappointed I didn't lean the mixture...I was flying a Caravan...

Bahahahahahaa

I would have told him to go to jail, do not pass go, do not collect $200!

Priceless :)

[Bla Bla Bla]

I went through a stage of ppl guys sitting next to me some really nice and respectful and some so far up there arse it was ridiculous.

One guy told me " hey buddy you got two pilots on this plane" (loud yank) I asked for whom he flew for and he explained he had a ppl, I went on to explain that you are a pilot when its your job and a hobbyist until that point.

I also love the guy who tries to give a commentary to his friends in the back of every thing that you do during the flight. We had a complaint to from a ppl pax to the chief pilot that the pilot who had flown him did not use carb heat once. The chief pilot explained that the c206 does not have one. ( tail between legs )

Having said all that flew some really nice ppl guys who were keen to learn something by watching and respectful and will always be made more than welcome again with that attitude.

Sorry drifting !

[SokPuppet]

Respect?

Fark me! It was your choice to drive an aeroplane for a living. Hardly any reason to expect unquestioning "respect".

Sorry to burst the bubble, but the mystique and marvel of being a pilot is just not that 'special' anymore. Do yourself a favour and stop believing all the spin and drivel of being a god-like aviator and concentrate on getting some life experience and maturity to deal with such situations. With that will come the respect that seems to be so eagerly craved.

TTFN

[j3pipercub]

Sok,

Firstly, the first P in Pprune. Cheers. Go back to the other forum.

Secondly, your toys are a great deal more simple than most other things, so the mystique may have gone from them, but not most real aircraft...

Third. You went from Bla3 saying that there were some really good respectul ppl pax to somehow he's acting god like and should get some life experience. Great word twisting there, I think I was married to you once...

Fourth. When you are in someone else's office, you should show respect, whether a PPL, wreckreational pilot or 747 jockey. If you don't think that is cockpit ettiquette, then you really are out of touch. I had people like you as passengers. We don't want unquestioning respect as you inferred. But next time you go flying, think about how you'd feel if your pax asked to see the MR and W+B for the flight before giving you a minute by minute critique of your flying and they aren't even an RAA pilot? Go on, say you wouldn't mind it, then we'll know you're lying.

Fifth. You couldn't be past the kiddie competition. You fly toys.

j3

[OZBUSDRIVER]

The goal of all pilots is to be professional...not A professional...professional. If it isn't then your an accident waiting to happen. James Ozzie keep watching and learning...AS J3 alluded there is an etiquette that must be followed, after the trip and if you can get the pilot when they aren't busy...just ask the question...they shouldn't bite. Its all about learning to be a better pilot.

Until the day they make an aeroplane that flies itself like an automatic car is the day we can all become stearers and forget about calling flying a profession. (See Centuarus' thread to see where that leads)

As for the know-it-alls:sad: you just have to live with them and smile because the customer is allways right and thats what they are...customers who you have made a small wad of money from for your boss.... You cannot stop the coach and let them have a go at a real gearbox to show them how hard it really is to drive.

By the way, most of what I know about flying as a PPL came from bumming around this wide brown land with some bludy good pilots. I just sat and watched and asked and learned...and it cost me nothing and I learnt heaps:ok:

[SokPuppet]

J3,

You are missing the point, but demonstrating it perfectly. Ozbus gets it, but he's probably got a bit of grey starting to happen around his temples and has seen the folly of it all.

Perhaps a confusing of courtesy with respect is where the problem lies. Don't worry about it though. It'll all make sense given time.

TTFN

[j3pipercub]

Pretty words Puppet and awesome way to bring the whole, maybe when you're older argument into it, but it doesn't really work. I am interested how I demonstrate the point though. Please elaborate, I'm interested in hearing your logic, also while you're at it, explain to me how the previous post came across as god like. Or would you just prefer to stick to the old, when you're experienced gem?

[maverick22]

You'd be the most experienced 11 year old I know Sok. No wonder you're playing with toys:}

[SokPuppet]

J3,

Here's a challenge for you. Go back and read what you wrote. Then come back and explain what your motive was and what you were thinking at the time.

Can you do it subjectively?

The OP asked a simple enough question and explained his motive for asking it. How the thread degenerated to another anti PPL thread is quite stunning.

Mav, I lied about my age...shhh!

[j3pipercub]

I tell ya what Sok, I will if you will.

I addressed the poster with an earlier comment. And the comments above were in response to your own vitriol laced post about getting life experience etc. How did you expect people to respond to that condescending drivel? Then to top it off you say your RAA ergo not qualified to comment...on matters regarding Commercial Aviation. You may ask questions and give opinions, but they are null and void as you lack any real aviation experience.

So yes my post today was having a go, but only in response to you...

j3

[SokPuppet]

J3,

I already have. At 15:44, third paragraph.

As for condescending drivel? Isn't that what started this thread drift? And see, you've done it again. I don't pretend to be anything other than someone who flits a little aeroplane around for the sheer pleasure of it. You're turning that fact into another avenue for attack.

No, I'm not critiquing your or their commercial ops. I'm calling quite a few punters on this site for their arrogance and egos, and I don't think that there is a formal qualification for that. Or perhaps there is? CertIV in spot the immature poseur? It appears that if one drives an aeroplane around for a crust, it is implied that there is expectation that people should be in awe of it...Nope, sorry.

I do what I do for a living and carry no expectation that you or anyone else be in awe about it. Sorry, but I feel the same way about what you do for a living too.

TTFN

[the air up there]

Sok puppet. It is you who have missed the point. No one on here has asked for more than professional courtesy and respect. PPL pilots are re-knowned in the industry for being rude, obnoxious or just plain know it alls when their friends and families are around. The stories about the 206 and the caravan were hilarious.

If a PPL were to approach us and say, "I have a PPL, would you mind if I sit and watch you?" then most CPL's wouldn't have a problem. We may not be able to answer your legitimate enquiries on how/why we do things different do to time/work constraints, that is not to being rude or arrogant, it is because we are at work and may have another job to do straight away.

I don't know what you do for a living, but here is and example. Let say your builder. I turn up to your worksite friends and family in tow, and immediatly start to question your footings, foundations, plumbing etc. When you ask me for my qualifications instead of saying I'm a builder also, this is what I do, I say "I built my carport at home in a weekend from kit form". You wouldn't be impressed would you.

Finally, without getting into the whole RAA vs GA rant.

I don't pretend to be anything other than someone who flits a little aeroplane around for the sheer pleasure of it. You're turning that fact into another avenue for attack.


How does flying RAA qualify you to criticise commercial pilots? Yes some RAA aircraft to go fast. But speed isn't everything. I say this so you can't turn around and say you fly an RV6 which does 180kts.

If I put you in a 310, B58, 210, 206, PA31, C402 do you think you would up to speed. Being a good commercial pilot isn't just about good stick skills. Its about staying ahead of the aircraft. It is also about SA, and operating the aircraft efficiently. We don't just flit around, we are doing a job. If you can't respect pilots, then don't fly. Cause next time you go on holidays, how can you step on a jet without respecting the pilots. I wouldn't let my family live in a house built by a builder I didn't respect.

[ZappBrannigan]

How does flying RAA qualify you to criticise commercial pilots? Yes some RAA aircraft to go fast. But speed isn't everything. I say this so you can't turn around and say you fly an RV6 which does 180kts.

If I put you in a 310, B58, 210, 206, PA31, C402 do you think you would up to speed. Being a good commercial pilot isn't just about good stick skills. Its about staying ahead of the aircraft. It is also about SA, and operating the aircraft efficiently. We don't just flit around, we are doing a job. If you can't respect pilots, then don't fly. Cause next time you go on holidays, how can you step on a jet without respecting the pilots. I wouldn't let my family live in a house built by a builder I didn't respect.I agree with this, and I'll throw my 2c in by saying I don't think it matters at all that the person happens to be a PPL - it matters that these people being referred to, and I've had them sitting behind me/next to me too, are pilots with generally 5 to 10% of the time in the air I have, passing comments and criticism that they have no place in making. 98% of the time it's related to something that they normally do and they've seen you NOT do, and assumed you are being lazy/a cowboy/unprofessional. If it was a person with a CPL and 151.2 hours in the logbook, it'd be exactly the same.

I've had one guy tell me he thought it would have been a safer procedure to remain gliding distance from land (of course, we were in a twin), and another comment to his mates that I was a cowboy for flying a very tight circling approach (as requested by ATC) which was obviously five times tighter than the jumbo circuits he was used to flying.

If I criticised the flying techniques of a 20,000 hour lifetime professional, I'd expect to be treated the same way - which is why when I'm airborne with my CP and he gives me some professional advice, I take it.

[AussieNick]

Zapp and Air Up there have very valid points. I know i have done the wrong and waded into another commercial pilots technique when I was only a PPL. i was put in my place very very quickly. in all my training one of the best bits of advice i was ever given, and has kept me out of trouble ever since has been

"just nod your head and say 'uh huh'. If their wrong you can say your a d!ckhead in your own head, if their right, its up to you what you do"

[the air up there]

I took the long way to say "we know what we are doing, please don't be wankers PPL guys, be courteous" didnt I.

Basically jamesozzie, if you ask a genuine question we will give a genuine answer(90% will, 10% are wankers).

[SokPuppet]

How does flying RAA qualify you to criticise commercial pilots?

I never said it did. Go back and have another look at what was written.

You'll find I'm having a go at the wankers who want to put themselves on pedestals and belittle others.

[james ozzie]

Yikes! A few sensitivities out there. I guess next time I am paxing I won't breathe a word...I am sorry to see some posters getting so uptight - relax people, its just a web site!

But to re-state: I am sure the troublesome PPL pax described above are a minority whose mummies never taught them common manners - not a result of defective flight training or qualifications.

Hopefully you carry more PPLs than you realize as most say nothing?

[Wallsofchina]

You're right JO - a few egos coming to the surface.

One way to make an industry smaller is to criticise the customers.

[the air up there]

sok,
You have stated you are not a commercial pilot, but want to tell us how to act when people like you try and big note themselves. Maybe not you, but as the CPL's on here have shown, it does happen. Often.

You think you know what we do and how we do it and can comment on the complexity of our occupation simply because you operate in a niche area of aviation. You don't and can't. That is the attitude of the PPL's we are talking about and have you ably demonstrated it to us.:ugh::ugh::ugh:

It's not arrogance, it's pride in our work people.

[boltz]

I just do all the checks on the run; the usual 'tmpfisch' before every take-off. If I haven't flown the aircraft that day, I check the mags/carby heat when lining up at the specified RPM. If I have, I'll check the mags at 1000 RPM.
And the spark plugs won't foul if you lean the mixture after start.

[SokPuppet]

Air,

Your third paragraph. Was it pride or arrogance that guided how you wrote it? And before the red mist takes over, does this sound familiar?

Dress them up in a uniform and train them in the basics and within six months they think they know more than their peers, supervisors and senior management. The equipment is no longer good enough for them and they delight in ridiculing anyone they deem to be beneath them. And they still expect - no, demand respect. I've seen that attitude for nearly thirty years in a job that I do, so it’s not something that is unique to commercial aviation.

While I do have empathy for you and your comrades with having to deal with the loudmouths as described, it's going to happen with what ever you do and is no excuse for tarring every private or RAA pilot with the same brush. I think that you actually understand this, but pride is affecting your interpretation of what you're actually reading.

I've got a challenge for you too if your up for it. Review this and a few of the other threads where this sort of thing comes up. Read what was written and by whom. Then have a look through the poster's history to see what 'makes them tick'. There's a character trait and a pattern to the most vocal anti PPL/RAA posters. See if you can pick it.

TTFN

[frigatebird]

SookPuppy,
I've held a PPL since the late 60's. a Senior Commercial and several ATP's for different countrys, and an Ultralight licence for a while, because I love flying and wanted to fly my brothers homebuilts. The thing that some who only want to be responsible for themselves, or for a maximum of one other person while having fun have difficulty with, is the fact that pilots doing a job are actually RESPONSIBLE for the safety and lives of those in their care. If that makes them feel good like a Liner Captain would after a safe passage, then that is a completely different feeling to what you would get after an afternoon on the water on a jetski. All the best.

[the air up there]

sok puppet, I am glad you can see my point as I can see yours. I am not anti PPL as others on here are, I have many friends who are PPL holders and there is a mutual respect for what each other do in our aircraft. I am actually envious of them due to the freedom of being able to fly where and when they want, with who they want. Myself on the other hand, I am restricted to going where the clients want, and in the most direct and efficient route for my boss.

I know what you are saying about dressing people up in uniform. I have experience in a few professions and the arrogance I see in some young people (and elders) stuns me. They feel that a paper qualification, or a job title makes them superior to everyone. When I work for them (and I used the phrase loosely, as often I or others stick it together) and they get to big for their shoes they are left to fall on their sword publicly. A quick lesson like that and 1 of 2 things happen. They pull their head in and become very good at there job, or they become resentful and I am just a prick to them since I didn't do there job for them.

I don't know have the time to read through various threads, but I feel I can see how/why this argument starts. A CPL makes a comment about 1 ******** PPL he encounters. A proud PPL makes a comment about CPL's. CPL's jump on the PPL's are dickheads bandwagon. So then all the PPL's are on one side, and the CPL's are on the other and we have a mexican stand off.

Which is what has happend here.

A few CPL's have made comments about bigmouthed/headed PPL's and how that annoys us. You, and some others have jumped on the 'CPL's are arrogant' bandwagon and people have caught up in mud slinging, which is not my way.

I can tell you that we as CPL's find those stories mentioned earlier entertaining for so many reasons. And PPL's would be embarrassed by them by the pride they feel in what they do.

So lets agree, regardless of qualification level(RAA, PPL, CPL, ATPL), some pilots are just plain :mad:wits and can't be told.

PS: My third paragraph was pride in my profession.

[Towering Q]

OK....time for a group hug!

[SokPuppet]

Air,

It's been a pleasure to discuss this with a professional. Thankyou.

CYA