Oversize passengers - neighbours rights?

[nipva]

We have all been inconvenienced (occasionally overwhelmed!) by oversize passengers in a neighbouring seat but what are my rights to have my 'space' free of such intrusion? On such occasions I have complained (mildly) to cabin staff and have received sympathy but no relief. Am I entitled to claim some degree of refund if my seat space has been partly occupied by someone else's mass? I assume that my ticket entitles me to an unshared seat. I would also be interested as to the cabin crew's take on this.

[Capetonian]

I'm in 12A, Mr and Mrs. Piggy have just squeezed themselves into 12B and 12C respectively, probably weighing in at a collective 250 kgs against my 70 kgs. We're 0 minutes into a 12 hour flight and I'm squashed against the side of the aircraft, with large flabby parts of Mrs. Piggy unpleasantly close to my eyes and mouth.

It's not their fault, and there's nothing I can say to them to make them feel better, or worse, about the predicament which is causing them as much discomfort and embarassment as it is me.

I call a FA and explain as non-confrontationally as possible that all three of us are in discomfort and at some degree of risk in the event of an emergency requiring evacuation, after all that's the line they use when they tell us SLF that we can't have anything on the floor in front of us.

The cabin is full so there is nowhere for me, or them, to move. So I ask for a seat in the front. A couple of times this has worked, but not within the last 5 years or so.

The most frequent response is, as stated, sympathy but no relief. I always write to the airline, on the basis that oversize passengers should be charged more and given bigger seats. Most replies, and I have a number of them, say something along the lines of 'it is being looked into but current conditions within the industry mean that this is unlikely to be implemented in the near future'. And of course, why don't I upgrade to business/premium/first. Why should I? I'm not the fat one.

I know this is a never ending an insoluble debate. Some people are fat bastards because they're greedy and lazy. Others can do nothing about it, it's genetic or medical.

Any other thoughts?

[El Grifo]

I call a FA and explain as non-confrontationally as possible that all three of us are in discomfort and at some degree of risk in the event of an emergency requiring evacuation, after all that's the line they use when they tell us SLF that we can't have anything on the floor in front of us.


Apart from being a good line to affect a seat change, it is also a chilling reality. Your egress would be seriously inhibited if not impossible. What liability would the airline if that situation occured and could be proved.

Mind you, the way that we SLF are packed into aircraft these days, I cannot beleive that any evacuation could be effected in a timely or orderly fashion, despite the so called required standards.

Just to lever oneself out a seat these days requires a practised skill.

[Wyle E Coyote]

I'm in 12A, Mr and Mrs. Piggy have just squeezed themselves into 12B and 12C respectively, probably weighing in at a collective 250 kgs against my 70 kgs

Just ask to sit between them, your chances of surviving any mishaps would be exponentially increased.

Just think of them as your own personal airbags.

You see, every cloud has a silver lining. And should that silver lining be another aircraft, when you are removed from the wreckage, you will be safely cocooned in 500lbs of soft, blubbery, fat :ok:

[boardingpass]

Coyote, ingenious! We need more people like you who can see the solutions and not just the problems. I bet you can make a business class meal out of nothing but dry stores and a garnish.

[beachbumflyer]

Wait till the cabin staff close all doors. Then get up and go to talk to a FA. They will want you seated as soon as possible, they'd hate to delay the flight. So, they will probably seat you up front.

[Rusland 17]

I bet you can make a business class meal out of nothing but dry stores and a garnish.There are some airlines who seemingly already do.

[Bigmouth]

Buy a ticket up front.

[jeanyqua]

I have read/discussed this issue many a time,& on other sites as well.
Pay for the pointy end on long haul,& legroom with 2 seats together shorthaul.Simple !!
It takes me months to save up for this,but arriving at destination,not feeling like i've been "dug up " is priceless.
Apart from one bad secto in J over the years...it's been worth every penny for every sector we have flown.
Airlines like to fit as many seats into the cabin as posssible these days,to be cost effective obviously.
I often see comments that Monarch airline have such small seat pitches,(widthwise too).
My flight to Ace next july is already booked & paid for,with good seats allocated at extra cost to ourselves, i've taken the initiative to make the flight as comfortable as possible.
My view i'm afraid is to cough up for the comfort !!

[El Grifo]

All this "coughing up" crap sparks of elitism.

Pay the money, pay the money, pay the chuffin money.

It is not everyone who has the luxury of choice.

Most of us have no option but to travel the increasingly downwardly spiraling Cattle Class :ugh:

[FN-GM]

I know SouthWest call these people "Passengers of Size" and make them buy 2 seats

[Capetonian]

It is not everyone who has the luxury of choice.

Paying extra for extra comfort is a choice that should be made by the passenger at his volition, not forced upon him in order to prevent having to share his seat with an oversized passenger.

If I pay for an economy class seat I am entitled to sole occupancy of it. In any case, on a lot of shorthaul flights there is no choice even for those willing to pay for it.

[El Grifo]

Yeah, they all bark the same old mantra. "it was cheap, it was cheap, it was cheap, what do you expect"


Acceptability, is my stock answer :ugh:

[jeanyqua]

If you read my post el grifo...you will see that i said it takes me months to save up.
Also living in lanzarote,you should already be aware that it is mainly charter flights that land.
2 seats by themselves,at a princely extra cost of £60 shorthaul...hardly luxury :)
It's a fact that there are many passengers that fly,who aren't exactly on the lean side.
If it means me waiting longer till i can afford to book & fly...then so be it.
have had too many flights from hell to continue just getting on & boarding with check-in agents choice.

[nipva]

Am I entitled to claim some degree of refund if my seat space has been partly occupied by someone else's mass?

I have been amused by some of the comments resulting from my initial post but disappointed by those whose solution is simply to buy a more expensive ticket. Why the hell should I? Surely my ticket entitles me to my own space however small, so I come back to my original question which basically is, what are my rights?

[jetset lady]

Wait till the cabin staff close all doors. Then get up and go to talk to a FA. They will want you seated as soon as possible, they'd hate to delay the flight. So, they will probably seat you up front.


I wouldn't be so sure about that. You are right that once the doors are closed, we want people sat as quickly as possible, but at this time, we also don't want passengers changing seats, along with all their hand luggage etc. The amount of time between the doors closing and push back can be less than a minute and we have very little time to get everything done. There's also a good chance that most crew will be well aware of why you have chosen this moment to ask. And that will ensure you stay exactly where you are.

If the situation is truely unbearable, then I would suggest that your best bet is to either wait until after take off or to try to speak to the senior crew member whilst boarding is still in progress. If you explain your situation discreetly and without any dramatics, you will be more likely to get a sympathetic response. Picking a time when the crew are at their busiest is not a good idea.

Ironically, I actually had this type of situation today. A roundish gent and his wife were unfortunate enough to be sat next to one of the nastiest peices of work I've ever had the misfortune to meet. And this precious little butterfly didn't see the need to get up to speak to us. In front of everyone and in a very loud voice, she snapped, "I'm not sitting next to him! He's too fat! Get me another seat..." The gentleman in question was undoubtedly rotund, but certainly not big enough to affect her in any way. Upgrades were indeed made. But neither of them were her. And it was worth it, just to see the look on her face! :E

Nipva,

In response to your question, I'd be amazed if any airline would give you a refund for another passenger encroaching on your space. To be fair, why should they? It's not really the airlines fault, after all. The only answer would be to insist passengers of a certain size buy two seats and I don't know where they would stand on this, with regards to the discrimination act. I know this came up fairly recently in a rather heated thread, but can't remember what the conclusion, if any, was. I should imagine the thread is still around somewhere though, if you wanted to search for it.

Jsl

[Final 3 Greens]

All this "coughing up" crap sparks of elitism.

I don't agree with you, El Grifo.

It is a matter of paying for the service that you wish to receive.

Buying C should mean that you have a guarantee of more space, but it comes at a price differential.

Buying Y means you will likely have less space, but that is the choice you make.

As to whether the airlines are liable, I don't know.

Although the contract probably does not even specify what an economy seat is, there is a thing called 'implied terms and conditions of contract' that may cover this.

I'm not a lawyer though, so don't have an opinion whether it does.

Bravo to Southwest Airlines for having a fair policy (buy two seats, get refunded for one if the flight is not full.)

One can also buy two seats as a 'person of non size', as I do with Ryanair if using them. As there is no premium class, having guaranteed space is worth every cent and makes a 3 hour flight much more comfortable.

[racedo]

Its not just Southwest but also a number of other US airlines who do it as well.

Attenpts to sue have failed as being Fat isn't regarded as a disability and Airlines have a duty to protect the safety of other passengers as well.

Can these passengers be evacuated safely in an emergency without blocking other passengers route to safety is a valid arguement.

IMHO You pay for a seat and thats it, this applies to the 70kg person as much as the 130kg person, they making inroads on your means they getting more than they paid for. Let them pay the extra.

[Rusland 17]

One can also buy two seats as a 'person of non size', as I do with Ryanair if using them.How do you ensure that no-one tries to occupy the seat next to you? Do the cabin crew indicate the seat in some way, or is it left to the passenger to tell his fellow travellers that the seat is reserved?

What happens if you board the plane and can't find two seats together? Do the cabin crew make someone move to make space for you? What if the only empty seats are alongside families or couples? Or speedy boarders who have paid extra to get the seat they want?

Reserving two seats would obviously work well on an airline that offers assigned seating, but this sounds like a recipe for disaster.

[Final 3 Greens]

How do you ensure that no-one tries to occupy the seat next to you? Do the cabin crew indicate the seat in some way, or is it left to the passenger to tell his fellow travellers that the seat is reserved?

A bit of both, but it's no problem. Placing your hand luggage on it will deter all but the most persistent and the crew will help them find another seat, if they need one.

What happens if you board the plane and can't find two seats together? Do the cabin crew make someone move to make space for you? What if the only empty seats are alongside families or couples? Or speedy boarders who have paid extra to get the seat they want?

The crew will find you two seats together.

It is not a recipe for disaster, it works fine.

[El Grifo]

All getting a bit "animalistic" now is it not ?

Guess that's why they call it "cattle class" :ugh:

[Wannabe Flyer]

How about the agents asking passengers of size if they would like to super size their seat (subject to availability). Discounted way of up selling vacant J class at the time of departure. Win win situation for all I think???

[Capetonian]

How about the agents asking passengers of size if they would like to super size their seat

The immediate problem I can see is that it imposes a burden of judgement on the check in agent, and exposes them to accusations from the PC nutters of : "Why are you asking me and not that person over there?"

Maybe passengers should go through a measuring box, like hand baggage, to see if they would fit into a normal sized seat. Those who fail would be charged extra and checked as hold baggage or refused passage. Now there's an idea!

[Final 3 Greens]

Win win situation for all I think???

If you are suggesting selling J class seats for a discount, then it would not seem like a win win for those who had paid the asking price and now have the experience of seeing someone get the same service for less.

[StrongEagle]

So, what happens if I absolutely refuse to sit in my assigned seat which is partially occupied by a person of size? I stand in the aisle, ask for another economy seat, and barring that, a business seat. If the door is closed, what happens? If the door is open, what happens? If we have pushed off and I get up citing a serious case of claustrophobia in the A seat, what happens?

[Final 3 Greens]

Strong Eagle

I don't know what would happen under these circumstances.

To show one end of the spectrum, I was on a flight a few months ago where the cabin crew decided they were not going to serve alcholic or hot drinks (industrial dispute) and only announced it after pushback.

The passenger next to me called the hostess and asked to be offloaded, as he would prefer to make alternative arrangements.

To cut a long story short, the purser went white as a sheet and rushed off to the flight deck, coming back to say they couldn't return to stand.

At the end of the day, we both lodged strong complaints with the airline.

I don't know exactly what compensation he got, but I know that I received a complimentary return flight in the same class as compensation for the service delivery failure. I imagine that worked out rather less costly than missing a slot and the other financial implications of a return.

So the airline might compensate you for your troubles.

At the other end of the spectrum, I have also seen a return to stand and someone arrested for disruption under different circumstances.

Personally, I wouldn't undo my belt and stand up after departure, as you are disobeying a lawful command from the PIC.

One obvious remedy is to move the larger peeps into A&B and you to C. At least you would have breathing space on one side.

I guess a lot would depend on how you behaved and also how sympathetic the crew were on the day and whether the airline considered itself to have any responsibility (and one one need a lawyer to take a view on that.)

[manintheback]

So, what happens if I absolutely refuse to sit in my assigned seat which is partially occupied by a person of size? I stand in the aisle, ask for another economy seat, and barring that, a business seat.

This has happened to me - Pax next to me had raised the arm rest to give them more space as in now sitting in part of mine.
I quietly went to see the in-charge, pointed out I physically couldnt get into the seat. They moved me up (although I ended up with the eco meal - pah). All done sensibly whilst doors were open and without embarrasment caused.

[Bealzebub]

How long is a piece of string?

What would happen on the day would depend on the prevalent circumstances, the characters involved, the available resources and the degree of common sense applied. One thing that is for sure, a quick decision would be made.

If you refuse to sit in your seat, then it would depend on the reason for refusal. If it is a reason that cannot be satisfied, then the only option may be to remove you from the flight and leave it for other parties to resolve. Obviously you need to be secure in your seat for take off, and if that could not be satisfied for whatever reason, then the aircraft would have to return to stand to enable the previous option.

If another economy seat was available, I am sure that would provide the solution. If another seat in a higher class was available, that might also provide a solution, although consideration would also be given to moving the larger customer to it.

If you get up citing a serious case of claustrophobia, then the aircraft is no longer secure and the earlier option would once again come into play.

From an operational point of view, we can utilize whatever resource we have available to us, and obviously we would seek to apply common sense to any given situation. However if a situation presents itself that causes an operational problem, we will always have the ability to mitigate the problem by removing it, for others to resolve at their leisure.

[StrongEagle]

Thanks, Bealzebub. I gather you are some sort of flight operations personnel.

If another economy seat were available, I would take it. If a business class seat were available, I would take it. If the business class seat were given to the person of size I would accept it but would seriously consider the service commitment of the airline.

I would never become hostile although I might become immovable. When I am maltreated I do seek appropriate redress.

But I think your quote,

"From an operational point of view, we can utilize whatever resource we have available to us, and obviously we would seek to apply common sense to any given situation. However if a situation presents itself that causes an operational problem, we will always have the ability to mitigate the problem by removing it, for others to resolve at their leisure" really sums up the actual situation.

If I complain too much about the service I receive, for example, having my limited real estate occupied substantially by a person of size, what you are really saying that this is no democracy and that airline will use all the punitive tools available to it to enforce its position even if it means that my rights and my paid ticket are ignored.

So, if I did become immovable, then not only would I be removed, I would be charged with an unwarranted crime... I've seen too many of these. How about being arrested at de-embarkation for raising a stink after being stuck on the ground for countless hours.

And, I would be arrested were I to insist that I have a proper seat before the flight began.

And without implying any malfeasance on your part, this is the essential problem with airlines these days... especially US domestic carriers... I am nothing... to be ordered about... shat upon if required for operational efficiency and charged and arrested if I complain about my treatment.

[Final 3 Greens]

Strong Eagle

I don't read Beazelbub's posting like you do.

The point I get is that they will do all they can to satisfy the passenger, but if they cannot, they will offload and then let the groundstaff or customer service staff to resolve the matter.

Also, I don't get why you would question the airline's service commitment, if it delivered the economy seat you bought by moving the large sized person elsewhere (as in a bigger seat.)

[RevMan2]

Transportation in a specific class involves a product defined by ground service, cabin service, baggage allowance, seat pitch and seat width.

If someone encroaches significantly on the space that I've purchased as defined by the product in my ticket, then it's the responsibility of the other contracting party i.e. the airline to provide a remedy.

[nipva]

Revman
I would like to think that this is indeed the case i.e. the airline has a contractual obligation to ensure that the space one has bought, whether it be Business/First/Economy or whatever, is not infringed by others but has it been put to the test? Has anyone been successfully compensated after the event should one have had to endure such compression for a whole flight?
I would happily accept being reseated elsewhere in the class that I had bought but where does one stand (or sit) if the flight is single class and fully seated?
My original post was one more of curiosity than hope but this is becoming an increasingly common problem down the back end.

[Bealzebub]

Thanks, Bealzebub. I gather you are some sort of flight operations personnel.
Yes that is correct, a captain. Any airline will have a whole team of personnel involved in the operation of a flight, but once we have assumed command of a flight we are in charge of it and responsible for any subsequent instructions and decisions, even though those instructions may be given by another crewmember.

As well as the office holder for the job I do, like most other people, I am also a consumer, a parent, a spouse, a son and very frequently a passenger on an commercial aircraft. I am not immune to the realities of life, or the frustrations and difficulties that are faced by people in that context everyday. Like many people I take a professional pride in what I do, and get the greatest sense of satisfaction in being able to resolve a problem and being able to manage a team of other like minded people. Obviously there are times when a resolution may not turn out to be the best one, or when the only choices available have to be constrained to the lesser of two evils. But that is simply part of the reality of the job.

There can be few experienced air travellers that haven't experienced this type of discomfort on at least one occaision, as well as the whole spectrum of other travel related plagues that are part of the glorious world of low cost mass transportation these days. I doubt there is one of us that doesn't curse the cost of comfortable travel, or our employers refusal to afford us the standard of comfort, that we feel should be our right. We wonder at the manufacturers and operators seemingly strange idea that the average passenger is thin, short, patient, with staggered elbow lengths. However we all know the likely realities. On a bus or train, when your travelling companions (and probably their own embarassment is proportionate to your personal irritation,) body mass or limbs spill over into your space, you can move somewhere else or stand up. On an aircraft that isn't an option, which means you either put up with it, try and negotiate a compromise with your neighbour, ask for help with a resolution, or get off.

As I already pointed out, the application of common sense, compromise and good manners often goes a long way in resolving a problem. However if the problem cannot be resolved for whatever reason, then it must be curtailed. A flight is a time and cost critical operation, where any delay can have operational consequences that stretch far beyond the immediate problem. Ulitmately the captain is charged with making whatever decisions need to be made, and often that will be devolved or shared with somebody else within the crew.

If somebody refuses to act in accordance with an instruction, then the captain has the absolute right to have that person removed at the first available opportunity. What happens subsequently is a matter for other parties, and has no particular bearing on the immediate decision. If you feel that your "commercial rights" or indeed anything else have been violated, then you always have the same legal rights of redress that are open to everybody else.

I understand your frustration, but I also understand that the final authority on board a ship or aircraft rests with the captain. If you are dissatisfied with that concept, then you shouldn't purchase a ticket. You do have the right to complain subsequently, you do have the right not to travel. You do have the same rights as anybody else to seek redress if you wish or are advised. However you do not have the right to disrupt or interfere with the safety or regularity of the conduct of a flight without running a serious risk of facing the sanctions that are legislated to protect those aspects of a flight.

On these forums, we have the luxury of arguing a point to the 'nth degree. On an aircraft we often have to make a decision in seconds or minutes, before the problem becomes more wide ranging.

[StrongEagle]

Captain Bealzebub (http://www.pprune.org/members/10042-bealzebub), I sincerely appreciate your insights and views.

Permit me to first state that I have no problem with the captain having absolute authority over the ship... I cannot imagine it being any other way. Permit me to also say that in the majority of circumstances, crew at all levels have behaved in a professional manner. I'm not new to conflict and problem resolution; as a project manager for large scale projects this consumes most of my professional life.

Most of my contracts permit me business class travel for international and economy class for domestic. So, after a relatively luxurious trip on an Asian carrier from Singapore to LAX or IAH, I get to experience the 'joys' of domestic airline service.

I observe one thing directly. The power of the captain is all to often displayed in an arrogant, controlling, and self serving manner by cabin crew, far different than what I experience on Asian carriers. Second, from indirect observation, the airlines seem to be a 'zero tolerance' environment. Those that are removed are charged.

So, even if I had a reasonable request, my experience is that I will not be treated with any compassion, indeed, I will be treated as a trouble maker, with no recourse, and if you as the captain, did decide to eject me, I get the whole book thrown at me... kind of like the zero tolerance policies that get school kids expelled for drugs... except the drugs were an asthma inhalant or a prescription medicine.

You could call me jaded and be exactly right. I've been flying for business since 1967, and the overall changes that I have seen are dismal. It's not only about the increased packing levels, it is about how I am treated... and captain, knowing that your opportunities are limited, it would still be great if you could remind your crew to put us SLF's first... a denigrating term that ought to be eliminated from the vernacular.

Cheers.... and thanks for all the safe flights.

[JEM60]

Jeezo!!!!! All this moaning and whingeing. When will people realise that short haul is a bus!!!. If you are uncomfortable, get up and walk about. Fares are cheap. It's an hour and a half journey. I must be special or something. In all my years of travelling I have never pressed a Flight Attendant bell or complained about anything. I repeat. It's a bus. Endure. You'l soon be off it!!.

[rgbrock1]

Recently my wife and I flew BDL to STT via CLT. The flight from BDL to CLT was aboard a 737-400. Anyway, the wife had a window seat, I had the middle seat and a behemoth had the aisle seat. Needless to say the behemoth intruded into about half of my seat. (Plus, said behemoth could have at least showered before boarding ie, fat and smelly). Needless to say, the flight was most uncomfortable. The saving grace being the flight was only 2 hours in length. I didn't complain nor did I "walk around the cabin" as suggested above seeing that the fasten seat belt sign was illuminated for the duration of the flight.

Can said "over-sized" passengers not be flown in the cargo hold perhaps?

[Final 3 Greens]

If you have to travel in Y or lowcost, then buy that middle seat.

You know it makes sense, especially as some of the charges may not apply to a spare seat.

If you are travelling as a couple, the extra cost is modest and given that airfares are lower in real terms, you're still getting a bargain.

No more behemoths inthe next seat :ok: and you have space to put your luggage or your working papers etc..

I've just looked on the Ryanair webiste and for a flight Malta/Luton/Malta in 2 months, with a week stay, the cost for 2 adults is 152€ and for 3 adults 229€.

So if you buy 3 for 2, the return fare is only 114.50€, for 6 hours of flying and relatively a lot of comfort with that empty middle seat.

If I didn't have a load of miles to get upgrades on Y tickets, that's what I'd do for personal flights.

[Alanwsg]

If you're booking on-line, how do you buy an extra seat...
Can you just enter your own name twice, or what?
Then what happens on the plane, do you get two boarding passes?.

[Final 3 Greens]

It depends on the airline, for example Ryanair publish a procedure.

But it is straight forward.

[wowzz]

F3G - I'm curious. I've read the Ryanair web-page and see that it is possible to book two seats [never knew that until today] - how do you manage to keep the seat next to you empty? Say the flight is full [in that every seat is sold, including the extra one that you bought] what exactly do you physically have to do to keep the seat next to you vacant?

[Final 3 Greens]

wowzz

When I've done it (only a few times) it has not been a problem.

I've left my hand luggage on the seat and if someone asks, just said politely that it is taken, most people move on and find another seat.

Only once, a guy decided he was going to sit there and the CC member in the area (whom I'd told on boarding) quickly and diplomatically intervened and helped him to find another seat.

[blackhand]

Ms Scafe, who weighs 160kg, told The Cairns Post that Jetstar (http://www.jetstar.com.au/) employees asked her to pay for an extra seat on a recent trip, after previously telling her she would not have to worry.

She said the cut-price carrier, which has previously used overweight comedian Magda Szubanski as the face of the airline, in an ad campaign, had made a further mistake by booking her two seats that were not even next to each other.

Jetstar corporate affairs general manager Simon Westaway conceded there was a problem with booking Ms Scafe's seats separately but said it was policy to ask her to pay for both seats

From Couriermail. Queensland Australia.

Cheers
Blackhand

[wowzz]

Thanks for the reply F3G - not sure if I'd brave it on a 'stag' flight !

[Katamarino]

I am concerned at the attitude shown by some, as to what would happen if you arrive at your seat and find that you cannot occupy it because a fatty is taking up half of it. Some people here seem to imply that in the worst case, you'd have to be removed from the flight.

I can see no possible justification for this. The person who can't fit in their own seat should be removed; there is absolutely no way I would stand for being told I had to get off because the person in the seat next to me doesn't have the willpower to lay off the snacks.

I really hope that I have just misunderstood the implications here.

[rgbrock1]

F3G:

I, and my wife, never fly low-cost/budget airlines. We gladly pay the extra cost involved in not doing so. Most of the time we fly with USAirways. On occasion we go with American or Delta. We do not fly low-cost airlines as a matter of principle.

[El Grifo]

Not sure how exactly to define Low cost/budget airlines but I flew American from Dominican Republic to Miami then on to Montego Bay recently.

I managed breakfast the the airport in the morning. There was not a scrap of food avilable on the first leg of the flight. The "immigration" process in MIA despite being in transit, was so lengthy that I just made the next leg. On that leg again with good ole American, not a scrap of food was available either.

I finally made it to my hotel minutes before room service stopped at midnight and had my first food since breakfast

Not really low cost, certainly not budget, but the lousiest, meanest air journey I ever made by a long shot

[lowcostdolly]

I am a CC and recently a "pax of size" on a Monarch airlines A300 for a reasonably short trip....2.30 mins approx. My "size" is 12-14 depending on the clothing manufacturer.

Knowing that the seating on this plane is to the max capacity (have a pilot friend in Monarch) and the legroom is tight I duly paid the excess for some legroom. There were 3 of us travelling and we were seated at the emergency exit towards the rear.....legroom therefore guarenteed. Width of seat narower because of tray table stowed within it. Not a problem for my party.

What concerned me that directly to my right (on the emergency exit row) was 2 pax of so much "size" they needed an extention seatbelt. Also when the CC responsible for that exit sat down for take off (her modified seat was directly next to them) she had to manouver herself into it to avoid them.....what would she have done in an evacuation situation if they were incapacitated?

In my opinion (and it is just that) pax of excessive size i.e needing an extention belt should never be allowed to sit at the emergency exits legroom or not. That also is the policy of some airlines.

Obesity is an increasing problem in the UK and all airlines need to wake up the that fact and maybe have a look at what their USA counterparts do to deal with this...they are somewhat more proactive than we are. It can impact on pax comfort and after safety the CC are there to try and ensure that within the resources they have.

Seated next to a pax of size which encroaches onto your personal space then the CC will attempt to deal with this within the resources and seat allocations at the time hopefully with diplomacy on all sides.

Do it after the door closes expect a different approach from the CC:( We have safety priorities at that point.

Bealzebub summed up the position on this and I totally respect him/her for doing that.

[Bealzebub]

Nobody was suggesting you would be removed from a flight if somebody else was occupying your seat for whatever reason. The removal was a reply to a hypothetical question as to what happens "if I refuse" etc. That is why words such as " how long is a piece of string" and "common sense" were used.

The same criteria would be applied if someone refused to take their seat because they were sat next to a baby or a woman. A common sense solution would always be sought, but the question was posed as to where the ultimate judgment would rest and that is why the answer was given.

In all likelyhood, a passenger would have to be able to fit in to their designated seat, or be required to purchase a larger seat or another seat. However there may well be jurisdictions and specific situations where that is not the determined course of action. Similarly the decision as to action taken over the degree of inconvenience or nuisance, will not rest ultimately with the passenger.

[BladePilot]

isn't it Cranfield in the UK which does evacuation time trials on various aircraft types? I believe they developed the 'model' by which these trials are conducted in other countries?

It would be interesting to see the results now if they added a 'person of size' element into the trials! Could aircraft still be evacuated in the time specified by the controlling authorities?

Good old visionary Airbus they saw all this coming, let's build the supersized A380!!

[Capot]

Bealzebub,

A very reasonable and middle-course reply, but................

What would you do in a situation where I, a passenger of normal size, find that my seat, which happens to be the last one on the aircraft, is partly occupied by a fattie. I, unable to face the prospect of, say 2 hours+ of being squashed by this sweaty and smelly mound of flesh (as it will invaribaly be), tell the CC clamly and politely that I will not accept that seat which, for all practical purposes, is unavailable.

Are you going to offload me or the fattie? It's decision time, and an exploration of the issues, let's use our common sense and so forth, won't cut the mustard. Me or the fattie; which is it to be? Someone has got to get off, and if it's me I'll sue.

(Let's assume that no other passenger agrees to take my seat, and that the seat really is unusable while the fattie is there, wherever the armrest is.)

[Gibon2]

Well done Capot, you've framed the problem very starkly there - but I'm not sure it's really much different to any other denied boarding scenario. After all, in quite a literal sense, the airline has more passenger(s) than it has seats. Now and again I've seen cases on a full plane where two passengers get on board, each with boarding passes for the same seat. One of them has to get off, and it usually seems to be the one who got there second (unless the one already seated volunteers). Whoever gets off presumably gets the standard denied-boarding compensation.

The fatty-in-my-seat scenario would seem to be the same. Since the fatty is the one already in the seat (i.e. you arrived second, or you got up to complain), it's more likely that you're the one getting off. But there's nothing to sue over - you were denied boarding, just as if the airline had overbooked in numbers rather than, shall we say, in bulk.

[Bealzebub]

It's decision time, and an exploration of the issues, let's use our common sense and so forth, won't cut the mustard. Me or the fattie; which is it to be? Someone has got to get off, and if it's me I'll sue.

Well it doesn't matter what you think will "cut the mustard" the situation will have been handled by the senior cabin crew member, and if called upon to make a decision, I would base that decision on their recommendation. They are the people charged with and have the day to day expertise in dealing with these matters. One thing that I would definetaly explore is the ability to create something from nothing. For example many flights are carrying off duty crewmembers (ours or somebody elses) even though they may be ordinary revenue passengers. Even where that is not an option, I may well have a spare crew jumpseat available that can be utilized to avoid a problem, provided my crew were happy with that suggestion. All sorts of options that can be explored within the day to day resources that are available to us. We want to solve a problem using common sense, compromise and resource, not create one.

However if you are not prepared to accept the seat and my decision is that we must break our contract of carriage, then sorry but off you go. It is of little concern to me whether you sue or not. That is for you and others to deal with at a later point in time. I am permitted to refuse you carriage if that becomes necessary. You have the right to seek whatever subsequent redress you see fit. The doors are closed and off we go. In other words it isn't going to become a stalemate. Next week a similar set of circumstances involving different individuals may well result in a different outcome, who knows?

[Katamarino]

I don't think that the 'two passengers with the same boarding card' comparison is valid.

It would be more valid to compare it with one passenger sitting in their assigned seat, and then refusing to allow the only passenger assigned to the seat next door to sit in it - say, because they want to keep their carry-on bag in that seat instead.

In that situation I think it's clear who would have to be offloaded!

I appreciate that this situation is very, very unlikely and that the CC would use their considerable resourcefulness as has been explained above, though.

[Flying_Frisbee]

Today 15:13 Bladepilot
It would be interesting to see the results now if they added a 'person of size' element into the trials! Could aircraft still be evacuated in the time specified by the controlling authorities?


I think you'll find that the answer is that, if the controlling authorities want the aircraft type to be certified, then yes, it will be.

[Shack37]

Bealzebub wrote


Well it doesn't matter what you think will "cut the mustard" the situation will have been handled by the senior cabin crew member, and if called upon to make a decision, I would base that decision on their recommendation.



Yet another "sloping" of four barred shoulders. The CC will resolve the situation and that´s fine by me. SLF, just button it or suffer the consequences.:sad:

[Bealzebub]

Yet another "sloping" of four barred shoulders. The CC will resolve the situation and that´s fine by me. SLF, just button it or suffer the consequences

Yes well, that may be your opinion, but the point of managing a team of competent, sensible and able people, is that you do so in a capacity that enables and assists them in carrying out their tasks in accordance with their own expertise and personality. There is precious little point in managing if you are simply required to carry out each individual team members task. Obviously that doesn't prevent me from being called upon to make a decision, assisting or consulting, or on rare occaisions overruling something.

I think I have tried at some length to point out that we are looking for the common sense, compromise approach. The scenarios being presented are obviously marginal hypothesis and unlikely to frequently arise. Nevertheless just like Judges, Juries, democracies, tribunerals, publicans rights, ships and aircraft captains authority, etc.etc. It is an imperfect and often flawed system, but one that we have made and therefore have to live with.

[Final 3 Greens]

What people are seeking here is some clarity around the definition of what is a 'economy seat'

If someone who is enormous gets into a seat and then de facto splills over into the next seat, is this reasonable?

If the airline asks a pax to sit in a seat where the neighbour is spilling over the armrest or has even lifted it up, is this acceptable?

Some months ago, I got shouted down on a thread by self righteous bigots, when I suggested that everyone could pay a small levy to provide a spare seat so that this problem would not affect anyone, in the same way everyone pays the wheelchair levy on Ryanair.

Amazingly enough, I was hammered even though I usually fly business class and I was prepared to pay the levy with no direct benefit to me.

Well, as ye sow, so shall ye reap.

Beazelbub has told you how it is going to be, you pay for your seat, if you encounter a behemoth, you accept the remedy available or you are offloaded.

It seems reasonable from where I am sitting. If you can't or won't afford a premium seat or buying an empty seat, then you have chosen your own predicament.

lowcostdolly - person of size 12-14???? Norma Jean was size 16.

[rgbrock1]

No, I will not accept the remedy as put forth by Bealzebub. If I have to sit next to a fat slob - usually a fat slob by choice - then I will expect a remedy acceptable to me and not one acceptable to said fat slob. If my expectations are not met then I will simply spend my hard-earned money on some other airline. I understand what you are saying, Bealzebub. But I do not understand how anyone can entertain the notion that any remedial action would be biased toward the poor fat blob next to me.
The simple solution, in my mind anyway, to this whole issue is: if you cannot sit in a seat without spilling over into your neighbor's seat then you just bought that seat as well.
Don't like it? Either don't fly or, gasp, lose weight.
I will admit, thought, that my outlook on this issue is clouded by the great state of
Connecticrap, USA, where obese people are considered "handicapped". As such, they are "entitled" to handicap cards which they place in the windshield of their car.
Or, believe it or not, on their motorcycle. This makes it much easier for them to get to McDonalds, Burger King, Wendys, etc., for their next grazing.

[Bealzebub]

So many assumptions! I feel as if I have wandered into Golds Gym rather than the passengers and SLF forum. :)

It might be the larger passenger who cannot get into his or her seat because you are sat there? It might be the larger passenger who wants to see what happens if they attempt to provoke a stalemate? It might be a thin passenger who refuses to sit next to you for religious reasons? It might be a case of relative size rather than absolute size. So many variables.

So when you dig your heals in and refuse to sit next to the "fat slob" would it be worth the cost of the photograph to see your expression when the other "fat slob" with four gold bars is summoned from the flightdeck to deal with your complaint?

I think I may have already pointed out that common sense and compromise would be the preferred choice.

B. (weightwatchers) :ooh:

[rgbrock1]

@Bealzebub:

I do not normally dig my heels in and refuse to sit next to "one of large girth". In all my years of flying as SLF I have often sat next to persons of immense proportions.
However, when said person of large girth assumes that it is their right to take 1 1/2 seats and too bad on me then, yes, I do have a problem. Where is the line in the sand? What about someone who takes the equivalent of two seats? Should they not have to pay double?

r. (Gold's Gym family plan member):ooh:

[TightSlot]

Bealzebub has taken both time and trouble to explain what the likely procedure would be on the day of operation, and at the sharp end.

What you, as an individual may choose to do after such a hypothetical incident is entirely up to you: Any disagreement that may arise would be with the airline involved, and their lawyers if appropriate, not with the individual crew members involved.

[wowzz]

I'm now going to open a hornets nest which I am sure has been opened before. If I weigh 160 lbs and have hold luggage of 40lbs, why should I pay the same as a pax who weighs 300lb with the same luggage allowance?

[Final 3 Greens]

wowzz

Because airlines sell seats to passengers (including a hand and checked luggage allowance.)

As I understand it and in simple terms, the airline prices the flight by looking at the aircraft volume and weight/balance constraints and then pricing seats and air freight to maximise the return (yield.) For the sake of argument, let's disregard yield management techniques.

The average pax weight is assumed and relies on a distribution across a range, so the individual weight of a passenger is immaterial to costing a ticket.

Airlines tend to sell passengers space at a premium, rather than weight.

Currently, your question doesn't fit the model, it would be the equivalent of asking a private school why the slowest kid in the class doesn't pay higher fees than the brightest, as s/he takes more of the teacher's attention.

Maybe the model will change in the future.

[MidmarMile]

And what about my kids that only weigh 20-25kgs (44-55lbs) and yet pay 75% of ticket and full taxes (and 100% on domestic flights!). F3G is right in that we are being sold space not freight kgs.

But I think that this is all one big (pun intended) conspiracy. Plane has 150 seats and 98% of pax fit in very easily. Carrier increases capacity to 180 (by reducing width & pitch) and "tight" fits climb from 2% to 10%. Then carrier starts forcing supersize pax to buy 2 tickets. Who loses: all pax (reduced space/overflow into my space/buying 2 tickets); who wins: the carrier (150 up to 180 paying seats)!! It is discrimination against all pax!!

Back to reality. The problem is that no carrier is going to lay down specific details of when a pax has to pay for a second seat as they will be opening themselves to the PC brigade. Instead they leave it up to check in staff and CC to address the situation. If the carriers had clear published guidelines the CC/PIC would never be sucked into the debate.

[lowcostdolly]

MidMarMile I think you have hit the nail on the head actually :ok: I, and certainly the the Captain, has much more important things to deal with on boarding a departing flight than issues that could certainly be avoided if all airlines had a policy on this. It's just easier for them to avoid the PC brigade publically and then sweep up privately if need be.

I know that ryanair muted introducing a policy to this effect but they do a lot of things aimed at sparking a reaction and they did get just that on this forum along the lines of :eek::eek:!!! Now we appear to have a complete u turn on here. Anyone know if FR actually did go ahead?

Bealzebub has explained the likely reaction you would get from the PIC if they were called to deal with this situation and the last response was priceless :D:D:D

As an SCCM calling the PIC would be last resort for me. I would try and resolve the "problem" within the resources I have available. That is time and available seating. Upgrades would not be granted to anyone because I do not have that option. We have one class of seat. It's called a passenger seat and is "equal" class in terms of space.

We do indeed have legroom seats at the emergency exits and you can purchase a chance to occupy these under the speedy boarding process for a very modest fee. Furthermore if for any reason speedy boarding is not implemented properly by the agents downroute you can claim a refund. Occupy one of these seats and you are guarenteed not to be sitting next to obese pax. It is our policy that no extention belts are allowed at the emergency exits. Don't want to pay for this then you take your chances on who sits next to you. It's a free seating cabin.

That said I'm not oblivious to the discomfort this situation can cause as I too am SLF at times. Talk to me or any of my crew discreetly and we will do our level best with the resources we have available. Behave like a prima donna causing embarresment to anyone/have a hissey fit on or after doors closing and you will be seen as the problem which niether I or I suspect the PIC will want to take to 37,000 feet.

Also peeps just to clarify further when you get on board you will see 2 signs illuminated......no smoking and fasten seatbelts. These are reasonable instructions from the Captain and fall under the air navigation orders. If we are refuelling the seatbelt sign will not be on but you will be told this if you listen to the PA's. That is the time to flag up discreetly if you feel you can/may not be able to comply with this whether or not you fly loco or on a flag carrier plane with a first class/buisness cabin. :)

[Avitor]

Airlines sell seats. Before I spout, I am 12 stone and can fit into any seat offered me. I do not know anyone close to me who is grossly overweight.

I feel that large people should not be discriminated against, many cannot help being large and, seats to accommodate them should be made available, don't ask me how, it's not my job.

If it is deemed necessary to charge them more, then that passenger has a choice.

Safety should take precedence over profit. imho.

[Final 3 Greens]

lowcostdolly

I would be really interested in how you would approach this dilemma.

The flight is fully sold (let's assume no staff or others qualifying for a jumpseat are travelling.)

One of the pax is so large that s/he is spilling over the armrest and encroaching into the next seat.

The pax for that seast is very slim, but nonetheless cannot get into the seat without being in physical contact with the large person and really does not wish to endure this.

What do you do? You are damned if you do and damned if you don't - either party will be outraged if you offload them.

Let me say that I am not setting you up here, I am genuinely interested in how you would handle this unlikely, but not impossible situation.

I have witnessed a similar event on a flight last year, but there was a spare seat or two, so the crew shuffled pax arond and it was okay - though the #1 (whom I know) told me he got some grief from the person who had to be moved.

If travelling low cost, this is one of the reasons I often buy an extra seat, I know I'll have lateral space even if the pitch is 'snug.' If I were on a flight where such an incident occured, I'd be okay with having the larger person next to me, as the middle seat would take the strain, but I would want to take the aisle seat, for obvious reasons.

PS: I deduce you work for easyJet. Just my tuppence, but I've had nothing but good experiences over the past 7-8 years and have a high regard for the professionalism of the CC on your carrier.

[lowcostdolly]

F3G I just love you.....I knew you would have a personal reply to my post :)

I think I have answered your question in my post did I not? I would deal with the situation as diplomatically and sensitively as possible within the resources I have at the time and that does include time as well as seats.....as you know an SCCM at EZY then you will be fully aware OTP is an absolute priority after safety.

As a last resort I would consult the Captain if I could not resolve the problem myself within these very limited resources...in other words I would pass the buck to the person in actual command of that hypothetical flight and he/she would then make the decision as to whom is offloaded if necessary. That decision would be based on whom is seen as the problem from an operational point of view. Basically that would probably be the person who is refusing to sit down and fasten their seatbelt at this time. The SCCM would be able to advise on this

I know that seems harsh but in that situation I, and the Captain, will deal with the situation at the time.....other people in my company are paid to deal with the ongoing problems which may result in that decision. I think Bealzebub made that clear and I don't even know if he/she works for us. :ok:

What the company do in terms of service recovery after this point is not my problem......my flight will have departed on time to the satisfaction of the majority on board and my managers.

Sorry if that was not the response you wanted. :)

[Final 3 Greens]

as you know an SCCM at EZY then you will be fully aware OTP is an absolute priority after safety.

I do not know any crew members at easyJet, I think you must have misread my post.

Your reply makes sense, in the context of getting the flight away on time and I appreciate the honesty in saying that you would pass the buck, since I honestly cannot see what else you could do and was interested as to whether I was missing a trick.

Actually, you had not asnwered my post specifically, as I cited the example of someone who could not fit into the seat without being physically in contact with the other person - in other words they could not get into the seat unencumbered, which raises the question of which party is causing the problem.

Anyway, I don't think that would really alter your answer.

Thanks for responding.

[Shack37]

There is obviously not going to be a clear answer to this question, especially on the point of which pax is the problem. It seems clear to me the problem is the obese pax who is occupying more than his/her fair share of the aisle in in question. From a safety viewpoint, should this person be in the centre or aisle seat he/she is a hazard in an evacuation situation. He/she cannot have the armrest raised according to safety rules but may try to do so.
There is nothing hypothetical in this question and I do not understand why a clear answer cannot be given as the circumstances cited are perfectly clear. It seems one either accepts several hours of discomfort and potentially being trapped in the event of an evacuation without complaint or suffer the consequences.

s37

[lowcostdolly]

No tricks F3G just how it is. Whichever way this situation is viewed at present it is loose/loose for everyone apart from the carrier. Until all carriers wake up to the fact obesity is an ever increasing problem within the UK this situation will not be addressed.

Avitor has made the very relevant point here.....safety should take priority over profit. All UK carriers I think would adhere to this even if it is not immediatly apparent to Joe Public. Unfortunately profit will take priority over comfort.

I have recently travelled on a Monarch airlines Airbus 300 as a pax/SLF for a weekend break. The amount of pax crammed onto this plane was in my opinion obscene. Furthermore the working enviroment for the CC which I have appreciation of was hardly ideal. Unless they are a size zero it was difficult to walk forwards down the cabin without touching overhanging pax limbs in the aisle which I know pax do not like either. Also I would have found it very frustrating to have pax constantly in the galley area queing for the loo's. This is how the plane is designed in order to maximise seating which no douubt works very well for the Monarch exec's and their yearly bonuses.

I have a friend who works for Monarch and on his recommendation duly purchased legroom seats and I certainly got these. However the width was very poor even allowing for the tray table stowage I knew would be there. I am a size 12-14 so hardly large. I could put up with this for my short hop to the med but I'm not sure I would have been so tolerant if I had been going to say Goa which is around 10 hours and I believe the max this plane does. What can the CC/Captain do about it? Nothing I'm afraid.

Looking to my right I saw Mr and Mrs Rotund sitting on the exit row with their extention belts and the CC responsible for the exit squeezing in next to them on her seat. Unlike some carriers Monarch appear to have no policy on this :(

I asked my friend re this point and as a pilot he didn't know either :uhoh:. However he did tell me that 361 was the amount of pax Monarch had proven to the CAA they could evacuate from this plane so that is what it holds now. They have even made modifications to ensure they can achieve this i'e no bulkheads dividing the cabin's.

This is a classic example of a carrier maximising profit but putting safety first. As for comfort well it might be worth checking with your carrier what you are actually paying for at the time. I'm afraid it seems if you want comfort then one way or another you will have to pay for it.

Not saying I agree with this I think it is just how it is nowdays.

Guess I can expect some incoming now:eek:!

[Final 3 Greens]

I'm afraid it seems if you want comfort then one way or another you will have to pay for it.

No incoming from this direction.

I agree with you and I travel C on all flights of 3 hours duration or more.

361 on an A300 does seem sardine like, I have been on an A300-600 confirgured for about 100 less, in two classes and it was comfortable.

I tend to agree with Avitor, but when I suggested on a thread that I'd have no objection to paying a small levy to fund two seats for the occasional very large person, the reaction was very negative.

It seems the people who complain the most are the ones who do not pay for the comfort.

[Capot]

What a fascinating question, isn't it? I guess the practical answer for a passenger is to get to the aircraft before any fatties, whether or not seats are allocated, so that you'll be the one already sitting down and keeping the armrest down which, as has been hinted, probably gives an moral advantage if the fattie tries to take the next-door seat and can't get in.

If he/she then squashes you with a mass of lard you can complain loudly.

The difficulty for the crew is illustrated neatly by Bealzebub, a Captain, a master of the committee decision, saying:


if called upon to make a decision, I would base that decision on their (ie CC) recommendation.


while lowcostdolly, who is evidently what it says on the tin, tells us;


As a last resort I would consult the Captain if I could not resolve the problem myself


I do realise that these two statements, seen in their contexts, are not totally contradictory, but neither poster really answered the question of what decision they would come to when decision time is upon them. And that's understandable; there's no real rule, and there needs to be as the obese take over the earth.

[Abusing_the_sky]

Why not have the overweight (if that is the PC term) pax present a medical certificate (should it be the case) to the check-in/gate staff stating their illness (which clearly causes the overweight issue hence they would be entitled to extra "space" in the a/c).
If no medical certificate is being showed to the check-in/gate staff, then a very diplomatic suggestion of purchasing another seat (ticket) and explanation for the reason behind it might help; if that fails, there is always the suggestion "your arms and legs can travel, but your belly won't unless you check it in and pay extra for it";
Failing that, after the "overweight" pax finishes threatening you and your airline with taking you to court, you could always reply "oh yeah, well you should sue McDonald's first cause they fcuked you up"! :}

Joke aside, i think we should adopt the American "way of doing things", that being "charge them for being fatties!" Too right! Unless it's a medical condition (which they can't help), pay up or get off! Why should CC as well as SLF have to put up with your "out of order, don't care" obesity? If you are not able to look after your weight, surely you cannot be in any aircraft!

Yes, it sounds horrible coming from a CC, i know. Reality check!!
But tell me why, please do explain, why should we put up with other people's indifference? How many times before i was securing the cabin and "the" pax, sitting in an emergency exit row, is asking for an extension seat belt.
"I'm terribly sorry, but if you do require an extension seat belt i'm afraid you can't be seated in an emergency exit row"
Shout, roll eyes, puff, shout some more, swear perhaps, roll eyes...
It's not my fault you are in this state!:mad:

And come service, you will ask for a pizza, Pringles, a "lager love" and after that a DIET COKE. Are you joking me??!?? :ugh:


So, my advice to you "overweight" pax is take some of that money you won after taking McDonald's to court and invest it in some time spent at the gym, hire a personal trainer, buy a Fitness Board for the wii, anything that'll help you lose weight healthily, ditch the fat foods and start looking after yourself! After all, you only live once...

Before you jump on my throat, i am a healthy 8 and a half st, 5ft 5" height and proud of it. I'm no Miss Universe, but i am happy with my body.
Takes a lot of self control and self RESPECT to keep it that way so i suggest you do the same. Or PAY FOR THE EXTRA SEAT

Regards in an extension belt,
ATS

[Final 3 Greens]

ATS

Playng devil's advocate, then why does your employer make every passenger pay a levy to cover the cost of wheelchair pax, when they might have injured themselves driving like a loony on a motorbike or even be too lazy to walk through the terminal?

I take it that you disagree with your employer's policy?

If not, surely there should be a 'fatties levy' to cover their costs? And gven that it is a seat only, with no taxes, that should n't be too much, should it?

Shall we say 50 cents per pax, or about 90€ per flight?

Surely that should do the job?

[James 1077]

easyJet do have a policy that if you can't fit into their seats then you need to purchase another one. So on that airline at least it shouldn't be a problem as if someone is spilling into your seat then they are automatically in the wrong.

I wonder how many people know of the policy though ...

Link to it here (http://easyjet.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/easyjet.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=3042&p_created=1220543906&p_sid=jXwdkHIj&p_accessibility=0&p_redirect=&p_lva=&p_sp=cF9zcmNoPTEmcF9zb3J0X2J5PSZwX2dyaWRzb3J0PSZwX3Jvd19jbnQ 9MiwyJnBfcHJvZHM9JnBfY2F0cz0mcF9wdj0mcF9jdj0mcF9wYWdlPTEmcF9 zZWFyY2hfdGV4dD1mYXQ*&p_li=&p_topview=1).

[boardingpass]

To Capot and F3G who have asked some interesting hypothetical questions. I also am a Number 1 for a free-seating company and if a full flight has one seat down (taken up by lard), after consulting the captain, we would probably follow the same procedure if one seat was inoperative for another reason (such as vomit/pee or broken). That is call for volunteers (including speaking privately and respectfully to the fatso to encourage him/her to volunteer first) to take the next available flight, offering increasing amounts of cash incentives until the cash incentive reaches the value of compulsory compensation. (Similar to an overbooked flight). If still no volunteers, the last to check in gets offloaded and we're on our way. If the situation gets out of hand (ie aggressive/abusive) then police are called. Offloading someone who doesn't want to be offloaded can be difficult hence the volunteer method is preferred. Although the Captain does have the last word, in my experience, any problem relating to the cabin they say "what do you want to do about it" or even "I'll leave it in your capable hands - if you're happy I'm happy".

[Abusing_the_sky]

F3G,

It's all BUSINESS, as i'm sure you very well know... ;)
I was just suggesting a (maybe) EU regulation that states that all "overweight" pax that are in the above condition due to illness should not be asked to purchase another seat/ticket.

The rest of them, the lazy ones who don't care, let them bloody pay; the fuel burn will be ever so grateful, thank you very much! :}

[boardingpass]

Capot:
The difficulty for the crew is illustrated neatly by Bealzebub, a Captain, a master of the committee decision, saying:

if called upon to make a decision, I would base that decision on their (ie CC) recommendation.

while lowcostdolly, who is evidently what it says on the tin, tells us;

As a last resort I would consult the Captain if I could not resolve the problem myself

I do realise that these two statements, seen in their contexts, are not totally contradictory, but neither poster really answered the question of what decision they would come to when decision time is upon them.
When the senior looks at the Captain and the Captain looks at the senior and they both draw a blank, the simple answer is to call Operations on the cell phone (after all we're still on the ground). It doesn't mean you'll get a good solution, but it means that the responsibility has been deferred to the poor bugger who answered the phone and the consequences of the decision lies with someone else... Which is what really matters.

[Final 3 Greens]

James 1077

easyJet do have a policy that if you can't fit into their seats then you need to purchase another one.

This was one of the reasons I asked the question to lowcostdolly and why I worded the question so specifically to say that the slim person could not fit in the seat without bodily contact with their larger neighbour.

It is one thing to have a policy and another thing to define what 'not fitting into a seat' looks like.

From lowcostdolly's reply, I would deduce that easyJet have not issued a clear definition to 'operationalise' the policy, so that places the crew in a difficult position, unlike clearly defined criteria about who may sit in an exit row.

I have not been able to find a Ryanair policy about this matter, but the company does offer two ways of securing extra space

Ryanair - FAQS : Can I purchase an extra seat for a large person? (http://www.ryanair.com/site/EN/faqs.php?sect=spn&quest=large&xtmc=large%20person&xtcr=1)

Ryanair - FAQS : Can I check-in a musical instrument or purchase an extra seat to carry it in the cabin? (http://www.ryanair.com/site/EN/faqs.php?sect=bag&quest=musicalinstruments&xtmc=large%20person&xtcr=4)

As times move along, people get bigger and flights gets busier as theworld comes out of recession, I anticipate legislation to resolve this matter.

[rgbrock1]

@abusingthesky:

I'm with you on this one. All the way. Interesting how the airlines will charge you extra for check-in baggage which is "overweight" but not for a fattie who is obese.
I did get a kick out of your reference to a diet coke after scoffing down vast amounts
of fattie food!!!!

[jokada]

On the odd occasion that I have found myself checking in "overweight" luggage (or when my +/- 42 kg grandchild was doing same), if the check-in agent mentioned the fact that the luggage was overweight, I remarked that that may well be the case, but that I/she/we were N-O-T!!

Worked for us!!

[Final 3 Greens]

rgbrock1

Why don't you FedEx yourself? :E

That way you could be sure that no obese person is pulling one over on you :}, yuo pay by weight for freight.

Strange how this topic brings out different thoughts, when i see a very obese person getting on to a plane, my immediate thought is 'thank goodness I'm not like that', not 'that person is ripping me off.'

Takes all sorts to make a world I suppose.

[rgbrock1]

@F3G:

When I see an obese person I do not think to myself "that person is ripping me off".
I think to myself "I hope s/he is not going to be sitting next to me." Which usually results in that same obese person sitting next to me. So, instead of FEDEX-ing myself
next time I fly perhaps I'll use some "reverse psychology" and think to myself "I really hope tubby over there is going to sit next to me." Hey, it might work!

[LiSrt]

If an airline has the attitude that you have to pay for a seat regardless of who/what is spilling into it, an unofficial check-in policy might be helpful - perhaps all passengers who look like they may not be effectively bounded by the armrests (and any particularly rude ones) could be assigned to a particular row?

Row 13 maybe, or - more sensibly - somewhere near the CofG for that aircraft type.

Any "overspill" could therefore be counteracted from the adjacent seat.

Pity about the last person in the queue when the only seat left is 13E in a 10-wide layout... :(

[Final 3 Greens]

rgbroack

I can certainly buy into that :}

Maybe there is a good business opportunity for a manufacturer of cosmetic lesions and boils, so that slim pax can cover their facewith these and put off anyone form sitting next to them? ;)

LiSrt

Mmmmmm. Your cunning plan might encounter problems on Lufty SeatGuru Seat Map Lufthansa Airbus A321 (321) (http://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Lufthansa/Lufthansa_Airbus_A321.php)

[rgbrock1]

@F3G:

I like the business opportunity you've proposed. I might just look into this BUT it would require some capital expenditure which I do not at the moment have.
However, I have pondered an alternative.
The evening before a flight, from henceforth, I am going to eat copious amounts of beans, burritos and eggs and drink the nastiest American beer I can find (Miller beer comes foremost to mind). Then, when an obese citizen of this planet sits next to me well, let the fireworks begin!!!! :eek::eek: I bet they ask to be moved to another seat!

[Final 3 Greens]

rgbroack

That reminds of the story about a guy in a bar who is suffering from severe flatulence, so he times his outbursts to coincide with noisy part of the music.

He can't undertstand why everyone is looking at him in a strange way, until he realises he is listening to his iPod.

[rgbrock1]

F3G:

Good one that!!!!!!!!! I do the same when my "colleagues" here at work become so verbose that their lips start beating their faces to death. I time accordingly. Funny thing is, both sounds are very similar.

[boardingpass]

At the height of the Swine Flu hysteria, all it took was a couple of well timed sneezes and coughs when someone eyed the seat next to you...

[Wannabe Flyer]

Fat people will now get two seats for the price of one on flights within Canada | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1088230/Fat-people-seats-price-flights-Canada.html)


How many would like the same SLF next to you





http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1088230/Fat-people-seats-price-flights-Canada.html

[lowcostdolly]

James 1077 well I have learnt something today and F3G you are so right. I would have needed a crystal ball to be aware of this "policy" :)

Unfortunately so would most pax unless they thought to ask the question which this one obviously did as it was on the FAQ link. Unless I have missed this when looking it is not on the terms and conditions of carriage either but hardly anybody reads these anyway. All I have ever been told in training is that obese pax have the "option" to purchase an extra seat if they feel they cannot fit into the one provided.

easyjet are very clear on these pax sitting at the emergency exit rows but that is all. Not all airlines are so emphatic re this as I witnessed for myself the other day despite what is quoted in this link.

EZY are obviously putting the onus on the pax to flag up if they are obese so EZY don't have to tell them they are. As most pax don't the first EZY will probably know about at is at the gate especially if pax has checked in on line. The gate agent I can assure you will happlily leave this one to the CC to handle.

Can I just give those of average preportions a hint on here? Read easyjet's T&C's on denied boarding and what you can expect from them if you are denied your allocated "space" which I would assume is your designated seat width.....just a thourght because I bet most airlines have the same buried deep in the small print nobody ever reads :ok: I wonder if anyone has ever put this to the test? All I would say is don't get offloaded because of your conduct in this situation however frustrated you may feel.

Boardingpass..... SCCM looks at Captain who looks back and both draw a blank :eek:!! Thank heavens I have never had this situation.....ever. I do try my best to deal with situations in the cabin within the limited resources we have as CC but sometimes you need to pass upwards to the Commander of that flight who will make a decision. As an SCCM I am not too proud to admit I have run out of options or even at times I don't know what to do next....none of us are so senior we cannot learn on a daily basis.

Captains who are in command make decisions......it's what they are trained and experienced to do. I have yet to meet one who can't thankfully. Can you imagine at 37,000 feet with a fire on board and blank stares between the Captain and FO on what to do.....Oh I know I'll ask ATC. I can't get a signal on the cell phone to operation's :ugh:

[10DowningSt]

I have not been able to find a Ryanair policy about this matter, but the company does offer two ways of securing extra space

Ryanair - FAQS : Can I purchase an extra seat for a large person? (http://www.ryanair.com/site/EN/faqs.php?sect=spn&quest=large&xtmc=large%20person&xtcr=1)

Ryanair - FAQS : Can I check-in a musical instrument or purchase an extra seat to carry it in the cabin? (http://www.ryanair.com/site/EN/faqs.php?sect=bag&quest=musicalinstruments&xtmc=large%20person&xtcr=4)



Very good, very clear, well done, Ryanair.

Pity that the sample boarding card illustration for the second link was incorrect. It bothers me when airlines just can't get the details quite right.

[boardingpass]

Dolly, I wasn't talking about SEPs. If you're on the ground and you're trying to work out if you can carry someone or in the example given you've got a fatso taking up two seats... there's no harm calling Operations. I've been in the flight deck a couple of times with the Capt on the phone seeking clarification on one issue or another.

[lowcostdolly]

Hi BP I wasn't talking about SEP's originally either mate:). I used them as a comparison because I actually could'nt quite believe what you had suggested in your post but maybe I misunderstood you?.

I was still working on the scenario posed by F3G.....the all things equal, no seats etc one and also the lack of comms from my company on our apparent "policy" which as yet is to be entered on the T&C's of carriage never mind communicated formally to the CC :ugh:

Thankfully in the years I have been flying the times I have actually had to deal with this sensitive issue have been few and have usually been resolved by relocation of available seats, good will, compromise etc.

I have done one offload that I can recall due to this reason and yes it was my "recomendation" to the Captain who went with this. At the risk of being not PC here "Thinny" had been very offensive to "Fatty" on boarding. I couldn't relocate "Thinny" who then had a choice for her approx 50 minute flight to AMS from LGW which apparently was for an "important meeting". She could either sit down and fasten her seatbelt (captains instructions and covered by the ANO's) or carry on kicking off on doors closing. She chose the latter so off she went I'm afraid. that's why I said in my post "don't get offloaded because of your conduct......"

What customer services did to sweep up after this I don't know and niether do I really care! OTP was achieved to the satisfaction of most pax and I suspect all my managers!!

In the all things equal scenario (unlikely but possible) i.e all pax behaving reasonably/cordiallythen it's buck passed to the person with the most gold bars I'm afraid....he/she is paid the most to take any flack for decisions made!!

Sorry if I misunderstood your post boardingpass :)

[etrang]

lowcostdolly - person of size 12-14???? Norma Jean was size 16.

Dress sizes have changed a lot in the last 20 years. She would be a 6 or maybe an 8 today.

[Shack37]

I´m currently on holiday with Mrs 37 and we´ve found a little bar/cafeteria where we enjoy a couple of wines before heading off for dinner in our hotel. This bar is next door to a small Chinese restaurant which does a buffet on the patio for €8. Last night a couple sat down there, no nationalities mentioned. He was at least 25 stones (125Kgs) and his good lady not a lot less. Could have been a medical condition they shared I thought, might as well give them the benefit of the doubt. As Mrs 37 and I were leaving after about 20 minutes the pair in question were on their fourth plateful, and not small ones at that. The thought of being sat next to this pair or,God forbid, between them, would make me suicidal. As it was, the restaurant owner was close to falling on his sword.

It was a great relief to know they were definitely not on the same return flight as us as they certainly did not live in the same country.:)

[TSR2]

I agree with F3G that it takes all sorts to make a world.

There are many excellent well thought through posts on this thread for such a sensitive subject and whilst I respect the rights of everyone to express their personal opinion, unfortunately the underlying tone of a minority of posts in my opinion, is discriminatory at worse or just downright ignorant at best.

My first flight as a passenger was over 50 years ago and from the mid 60's spent over 35 years of regular air travel mostly on business and for the past 10 years, leisure only.

In that time I can honestly say that I have never been inconvenienced by an obese passenger. Not even one one single occasion.

However, I can categorically state that when travelling economy, I am inconvenienced more often than not by the non-obese passenger sat in the centre of a block of three seats.

The width of an economy seat can be as small as 16". Some are 17" and if you are really lucky maybe 18". Add to this say 2" to the centre of each armrest (1" each side). Now take the dimension across the back from elbow to elbow of an average male when seated (whatever you may consider average) and you will be surprised. Even the most average of average male passenger seated in a centre seat will encroach on the space of adjacent passengers either at elbow or shoulder level.

I have no doubt that your personal space will be invaded if you are unfortunate enough to be seated next to an obese person irrespective of the seat location. However, it is my contention that the chances of your personal space being invaded by an average person seated in a centre seat are much greater.

If a system of refunds were to be introduced for passengers whose personal space was invaded then I feel sure that most passengers would qualify.

[Shack37]

Obese air passenger in economy seat has picture taken - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/6671018/Obese-air-passenger-in-economy-seat-has-picture-taken.html)



I suppose the overwing exits could be a bit tight

[AlbertaGirl]

I was wondering what is thought of this idea:
What if people people purchased a ticket based on weight including baggage allowed? IE person and bag stand on a scale and if they are over "average" they pay more?

I'm a smaller person and am limited to bags with a certain weight. Given I'm at least 50 lbs less than the average - why am I charged extra when one bag is 5 lbs over?

The other point for this idea is that perhaps if people paid by weight, then it would be possible for airlines to make the seating more comfortable for all passengers.

Just an idea since I hate having to check two bags because one might be a few pounds over and now I'll get charged. I do understand that the weight restriction is also for the baggage handlers, but jeez.... when I see people who weigh twice what I do check two bags just under the limit and I have one bag 5 pounds over and get charged I have to wonder. It has to be cheaper to fly a light person with no bags to their destination as opposed to an obese person with checked baggage.

The other thing I want to say is that it's not always larger size pax that spill into neighbouring seats. I've had a few occasions where someone decides to read the paper spread out or will spread their feet into my space because they won't put their stuff in the overhead. :eek:

[FullOppositeRudder]

Spare a thought in these situations for the person who is a little on the large size.

World Champion Tasmanian Axeman David Foster is 6'4" and, according to some sources, weighs in at around 28 stone. You can perhaps more readily appreciate the implications of this when you see a picture of him in action at his web site:

davidfoster.com.au (http://www.davidfoster.com.au/)

David is a very entertaining speaker with a larrikin sense of humour and frequently uses opportunities to play upon his impressive physical stature and/or his proficiency with the axe. He apparently takes significant delight in the inevitable rise in tension whenever he ambles into a departure lounge and everyone else realises the possibility that HE could be allocated the seat right next to them :eek:. There is often a hasty if hushed re-examination of boarding passes by anxious fellow travellers to see what the possibilities might be.

David goes on the say that when the boarding call is made, he usually waits until most of the others have entered the aircraft before he joins toward the end of the queue, and eventually wanders down the aisle checking his ticket and the seat numbers on the luggage lockers. He senses the latent anxiety, and knows that anxious eyes glance toward him - especially those who have realised that the seat next to them is still unoccupied. He also is aware of a certain sense of significant relief as he goes on past those people who had viewed the vacant seat next to them with suppressed horror at the implication that this might be "the one".

He sometimes makes a point of walking right past the seat he knows he is allocated, and with a finely honed sense of the relief the poor soul feels - ("Phew! he is past me, thank goodness for that .....") - to turn back a second or so later to break the happy news that "Well, this looks like it is my seat ....." :E.

Great bloke - in every way! :ok:

[TSR2]

I'm a smaller person and am limited to bags with a certain weight. Given I'm at least 50 lbs less than the average - why am I charged extra when one bag is 5 lbs over?

That argument also applies to all children and given that there are many many more children fly than obese passengers, I think the answer to your question is that the airlines just would not consider payment by weight as they would probably lose out.