Help needed

[tony draper]

Can one of you military gentlemen help Draper out here.
I read on another thread that the late
Wing Commander Beamont, flew the TSR2 at mach 1.2 at low level.
There's a stroppy colonist arguing that their f104 could go faster than that at low level.
What speed exactly is mach 1.2 at 100 feet in english money, ie mph?.
I thought something like the f104 would shake itself to pieces doing that speed at that height, I mean, it was a bit girly looking. ;)

[ 22 November 2001: Message edited by: tony draper ]

[Jay Foe]

Referring to my Boys Own Book of Aerodynamics, it comes out as.

Carry the five, minus the temperature, add the first number you thought of, equals....

BLOODY FAST ;)

Or round about 910 mph assuming Standard sea-level stuff. As the height increases though, the Mach No. decreases so at 10,000' Mach 1.2 is about 881 mph.

[Wholigan]

Oi Tony --- wash your mouth out with carbolic soap mate ---- "girly looking"????

I'll have none of that mate!!!

Anyway to help you as requested:

Mach 1 at sea level = approx 760 miles per hour.

Therefore, Mach 1.2 at sea level = approx 912 miles per hour = approx 793 knots (nautical miles per hour - 1 nautical mile = approx 1.15 statute miles).

Th F104 was limited to whichever came first of: 750 knots equivalent air speed; 121 degrees C inlet air temperature; the "slow light"; or Mach 2.

The relationship between indicated air speed and equivalent air speed can vary considerably, so you can fly at higher indicated air speeds and not exceed the equivalent air speed limit.

I have personally seen 810 knots indicated air speed at (very) low level. That equates to 937 miles per hour. Therefore, the F104 can (could) exceed Mach 1.2 at sea level.

And anyway, it was a delight to fly, although sometimes it could be like driving a TR3 on bald tyres in the wet!!! And you could shave on the leading edge of the wings if you forgot your razor on a landaway. :)

It also achieved the first non-American "kill" on an F14 during a Top Gun "one versus many" combat scenario.

So - go and use the carbolic again :) ;) :p

That OK ?????

[tony draper]

Well, Draper knows the Starfighter was a spiffing looking craft, with wings thin enough to shave with,it just looked a bit delicate to take a good hoofing in the weeds.
One doesn't wish to sound snotty here, but I think American low level would be classed as medium level by our chaps. ;)

[tony draper]

Alas apparently its true, Draper loses again, one can't argue with Google.
One Darryl Greenamyer, drove a modified Lockheed f-104 at 988.260 mph in 1977 for the low level speed record.,
Still, one is going to have the satisfaction of posting back to the colonies, that we have a vehicle that can do that at zero feet called Thrust, I think them bugg*rs have forgoten that. ;)

[ 22 November 2001: Message edited by: tony draper ]

[Archimedes]

A thought...

TSR 2 exceeded Mach 1.2 when it was a prototype which had engine problems (remember that RPB took off on the first flight knowing that the engines could go 'bang' in an undesirable fashion at any moment). What we have is potential versus an operational type.

Is the comparison fair, or merely a result of insecurity that we Brits were so confident that we were able to cancel the world's most advanced strike attack aircraft without a care?

Oh... :rolleyes:

[Wholigan]

Just to keep the record straight Tony, I AM "one of our chaps" and the low level to which I referred was at about 100 feet (actually, I'm not telling you what it really was)!

[tony draper]

Draper himself flew a GR4 at low level for a few hundred hours,Mr W laying down those JP232?
runway denial thingies was exceedingly hairy.
All on computer of course, incidently Draper seldom flew higher than 60ft, being somewhat terrified of Ivan and his migs, and became very skilled at running away from, rather than scuffling with same.
Mind you if Draper happened upon a lone Flogger wending his way home with nothing on his rails, then Draper would pop a cap in his ass, as they say. ;)

He who runs away, lives to run away another day. ;)

[ 23 November 2001: Message edited by: tony draper ]

[Jackonicko]

Computer games don't count, Mr D.

Had thought that all NATO -104G operators had a 750 kt IAS limit at low level, and that Tornado was unique for being able to do 800 kts in its initial service form?

Or is that bolloçk$?

[tony draper]

After making enquiries elsewhere I have it on reasonably good authority fom someone who would punch one in the mouth if one offered him a go on a computer simulation, ;)
that the Lightning could beat that American record at low level by a good way, and did so a few times unofficialy.
Draper hates causing controvery. ;)

[Wholigan]

Jacko -- it was 750 knots EAS mate.

[Rattus]

To be fair, Greenamyer's 104 was a one-off, not so much stripped down as scratch built from borrowed basket cases leaving out all the military bits, rather akin to mending a clock and ending up with a saucer full of sprockets and springs. Legend has it that nobody could be persuaded to lend him an engine at first in case it tempted him to fly the thing!
Incidentally Mr G was also responsible, nearly 40 years on, for taking Fritz Wendel's 1938 piston record past 500 mph; it was this achievement which decided him to have a crack at 1,000.
Rattus

[Ali Barber]

TD,

Much as I would like to support the Lightning with a WIWOL you should have seen how fast it went story. Unfortunately, although the Aluminium death tube was 'king quick, if you took it anywhere near those kind of speeds then the fibreglass radome over the radar in front of the single engine intake would explode, which was liable to be the first event in what was about to become a very bad day.