What to consider when buying an aircraft?

[The Heff]

I'm looking to buy my first aircraft, and just wanted to ask for some advice on what costs would be involved and what processes/hoops need to be jumped through.

First one is raising the cash! I initially thought the best option would be to take out a secured loan on the aircraft, and pay a lump some to the seller by cheque. I'm going to talk to my bank tomorrow morning about this possibility, but are there any other methods of payment or finance that I could/should look into?

Second one is maintenance; I was specifically looking for an aircraft on a CofA, because I want to add the night rating this winter and eventually the IR to my licence - and go onto something other than VFR flight. What instrumentation would I need for night flying and IFR? But also approximately how much does it cost for annuals and 50 hour checks (although I've been told that the aircraft owner can conduct the fifty hour checks himself)?

Third is insurance. I'm going to search around for some insurance companies to get some quotes, but does anyone have a preferred insurer that they can recommend? What's a reasonable quote?

Apart from fuel and hangarage, is there anything else that I ought to think about as a first-time buyer?

[Justiciar]

What instrumentation would I need for night flying and IFR

If you need to ask this are you sure that you are ready for the sort of aircraft ownership you are talking about? Your question is so wide that it is almost impossible to give a sensible answer.

is there anything else that I ought to think about as a first-time buyer?

Lots of money, for the sort of aircraft you are talking about. IO540, who flies a very nice TB20 which he was kind enough to give me a ride in recently says that if you are going to own a serious touring aircraft you should always be in a financial position to write a cheque for £25k. I can see exactly what he means.

If you stretch yourself to the limit to buy a 30 + year old high hours aircraft then you are almost certain either to have one very big bill at the first annual or moderately big bills every year for the foreseeable future.

Where do you want to go and what do you want to do with your IR? I would strongly suggest that you spend a few years renting different machines to get a feel for what type of flying actually suits you. Most people with expensive touring aircraft never get near using them to their full potential and end up paying a fortune for the privilege of having their own aircraft in a hanger. Once you know what sort of flying really interests you then consider group flying.

[Kolibear]

But also approximately how much does it cost for annuals and 50 hour checks (although I've been told that the aircraft owner can conduct the fifty hour checks himself)?

Our annuals have varied between £2500 & £6500 with 50hrs coming in at about £400.

I believe that it is possible to do the 50hr check yourself, but you'll have to get a grown-up to sign it off.

Budget for a minimum of £8000 p/a before you put any fuel in it.

The actual processes & hoops aren't too onerous, register the change of ownership with the CAA, get a new radio license, its all fairly straight forward. You'll need a 'Free Passage Certificate' (the correct name of which escapes me), to show VAT has been paid on the a/c so you can travel freely within the EU. For which you'll need a PLB and Mode S.

I would honestly suggest that you wait 5 years or so, join a group, fly more aircraft & see what you want. Whatever you buy, it will probably be the wrong one.

Remember, if you want to make a small fortune in aviation, start with a large one.

[Grassfield]

As a first time buyer I'd recommend you to first buy into a group. In that way you'll get a sense for the costs involved on average basis (although there are no meaningful average yearly costs in aviation... - there's always something unexpected to be fixed from time to time - but you've now been warned :)).

Now if you really want to own one yourself, I'd say take all the costs you can estimate for for 50h/100h maintenance, hangar, insurance, ARC, charts/GPS updates etc and add 50% to that. Now you have a annual budget that you shouldn't be surprised to get up to once every second year or so. For instance, there is alsways some new regulations coming from EASA requiring you to check or change something..., your brake discs are worn out..., the mechanic thinks your hoses need to be replaced..., a unexpected mag overhaul..., an instrument is failing etc etc etc. You now see that the 50% buffer can easily be 'eaten up'.

As posted above, on top of this, be prepared to write (or make the bank write it) the BIG check for an unexpected engine overhaul. But in all honesty, the probability for the totally unexpected 25k check is low...

Another fundamental question if you want an IFR tourer already now (with the associated costs...) even if you don't have the IR, or to go with a basic VFR tourer first to try the ownership situation. Then upgrade once you've got the ticket. Both ways have their advantages and I guess the final decision will very much depend on your planned time horizon to get the IR, your real use of an serious IFR tourer and your financial position.

[Rod1]

I would go with the advice you have had. If you want to buy anything get a share.

Rod1

[The Fenland Flyer]

I initially thought the best option would be to take out a secured loan on the aircraft, and pay a lump some to the seller by cheque. I'm going to talk to my bank tomorrow morning about this possibility, but are there any other methods of payment or finance that I could/should look into?

Please don't get yourself into debt to buy a plane:eek: if you're in debt to start with things are going to get seriously bad when the bills start coming in! Stick to a cheap(ish) share and put some money aside each month for eventual plane ownership if that is what you are set on.

[gasax]

Learn how to use the search facility on this forum? There must be dozens of threads of this and related topics.

[airborne_artist]

Let me be the first to advise that if it flies, floats or **cks it's normally cheaper to rent.

A loan secured on the airframe will be very expensive, and for far less than 100% value, in the current market. Most who borrow do so against their house by increasing their mortgage, I suspect.

Do you really need full-ownership? As others have said, a group is the best way to start - you could always buy out other members of the group over time to increase your rights to bookings.

Let me add that for someone who went solo for the first time less than six months ago, and completed your PPL weeks ago that in looking to buy an aircraft outright you might be a bit ahead of the curve right now.

[englishal]

If you need to ask this are you sure that you are ready for the sort of aircraft ownership you are talking about? Your question is so wide that it is almost impossible to give a sensible answer.
That is not really fair. The requirements for IFR flight are actually quite low - I've flown C172's with one VOR IFR in the past and the only required instrumentation is an oil pressure gauge, oil temp gauge (in the case of an air cooled engine), sensitive altimeter, compass and navigation equipment suitable for the type of navigating you are doing. In reality I like to have a G1000 with synthetic vision, but it doesn't stop me flying in the clouds in my little old 30 year old "spam can".

With respect to annuals etc: In my experience for a Simple SEP, then we look at £1800 for the annual, £400 for the 50hr, £1400 pa insurance, and £3000 for our own hangar - we sublet half so recoup £1500. However this assumes no repairs are nescessary. This years annual was £6000 because we had a cracked dynafocal engine mount and a buggered nose wheel assembly. Probably once every 5 years you'll have one of these killer annuals.

Best bet is to join a group, our killer £6000 annual only cost us £1000 each and was we had made provision in the rates we charge ourselves the blow wasn't actually very big. Where are you based?

[Justiciar]

That is not really fair. The requirements for IFR flight are actually quite low

Is the question not about not simply what is legally required but what is in practice needed to fly IFR? I am no expert as I don't tend to fly IFR, but someone who is planning to buy an aircraft to fly with an IR which he has yet to obtain might be expected to have a fairly detailed understanding of what hardware is needed, eg RNAV capability, de icing, autopilot etc.

[Sir Niall Dementia]

I own my own aircraft and have done for a number of years, in my day job (corporate charter pilot) I get involved in selling nice shiny ego boosters to quite wealthy people. We always say from day one that if the aircraft purchase price is more than 5% of your total net worth you can't afford it. The reality is that the purchase and tying up the capital may not be a problem the running costs are. The maintenance cost alone on a monthly basis for a couple of the aircraft on our managed fleet are £ 7 000, that is before anything else, including flying in the beast (and you may need to write the odd cheque for up to £ 750 000 without needing smelling salts). Scale that down to a nice PA28/C172 or whatever and see whether you can afford it. Also you are not tying up capital by borrowing so your immediate monthly payments are increased due to loan/interest re-payments.

We advise not buying if the price is more than 5% of your net worth because we don't want the hasle of you struggling with running costs, not paying bills and not using your aircraft, before selling it and slagging us off to all your rich mates that we ripped you off and never told you all the "hidden" charges (We'd rather you sent your rich mates to us to buy more shiny ego boosters)

The very rich, just like us tend to have their assets tied up and live on a reasonably fixed income, they have to budget like us, their budgets are just that bit bigger.

The airfields of Britain are littered with once beautiful aeroplanes bought by people just like you and bitten thoroughly on the arse. I know of 2 PA28s and a Robin which are now worth little more than scrap because the running costs got too much, maintenance wasn't done, the aircraft were moved outside to save hangarage costs, they weren't flown and now to get them back to a flyable state would cost more than they would be worth fully restored.

I said at the start I own my own plane, it is 50 years old has no IFR capability and costs £ 23 per hour to run, it is what I can afford. Please be very careful out there, there are lots of snake oil salesmen and the depth of the shark infested custard can be a lot more than you think.

[IO540]

Interesting post SND and I agree with it generally, but I think that

We advise not buying if the price is more than 5% of your net worth

is probably applicable to buying an old wreck; say a PA28-181 for £30k.

I bought a brand new TB20GT in 2002 and the running costs have been relatively peanuts. Apart from the SB569 crank swap, it has cost me a few k max in unscheduled maintenance over the 7 years.

And the purchase price was a helluva lot more than 5% of my "wealth".

I think there is a more or less direct relationship between buying an old wreck (and paying lots for ongoing and mostly unexpected maintenance) and buying something nice and pricey (and paying a lot less for many years thereafter).

The 2nd option also brings huge benefits: less downtime, probably more modern in equipment, fewer bodges around the place. Would you buy a newish Merc over a 1960 one imported from Cairo? I think most would. But most GA owners cannot afford the new or newish Merc, which is why the GA scene is dominated by the ones brought in from Cairo, which is why maintenance costs are so high, and since most owners cannot afford to pay them, the planes are either regularly bodged (which is OK on a fixed wing) or they are abandoned to rot.

The lack of "aviation engineering" knowledge on the part of most buyers does not help, enabling the various maintenance firms to have them over a barrel.

If looking for an IFR tourer, it is that much more important to get something decent than if bimbling around VFR from Goodwood to Bembridge as so many do. European airways flight is not really meaningful unless you have a ~18k operating ceiling, decent nav kit, oxygen or pressurisation. Even working out Eurocontrol routes below say FL100 is tricky, although one can construct them down to FL070 (which usually places you bang into cloud). One doesn't need to spend a fortune but one cannot really hack this in a C150.

Personally I wish I bought the TB20 early on and did the PPL in it. Perfectly feasible (with a competent instructor) and would not have wasted so much time and money hacking around in the various old junk. But hindsight is always 20/20 :)

[The Heff]

Thank you for all the helpful and positive responses, made both in public and in private. Looking into this further has really opened up my eyes as to how expensive flying and aircraft ownership can be.

However, I still want in.

I think I'm going to have to reconsider my 'wish list' to better suit my budget, as an IFR capable aircraft will drive me to bankruptcy, which is surprisingly difficult to do in this present climate. The predominant article on my specification is that I want something a bit more exciting to fly than a Cessna or a Piper; so I'm thinking about going down the LAA Permit to Fly route. I understand that its daytime VFR only, that its possible to maintain the aircraft oneself and have it signed off by an LAA representative, so in theory it ought to be cheaper to maintain and run (although of course theory and practice can be very different things).

I'm still looking at finance options, and I'm tending more towards an unsecured loan instead. But before I get myself into debt how does everyone else find the money for purchasing an aircraft? (If you don't mind me asking) Save and save for years, or is there another way that I haven't thought of yet?

I also did look at some groups and shares, but couldn't find any in my local area. Perhaps its a laziness on my own part because I don't like to be based away from my local airfield which is twenty-minutes from home.

[airborne_artist]

I also did look at some groups and shares, but couldn't find any in my local area. Perhaps its a laziness on my own part because I don't like to be based away from my local airfield which is twenty-minutes from home.

Advertise to see if there are others who'd join a group based there, if there's hangar/parking space.

[Justiciar]

The predominant article on my specification is that I want something a bit more exciting to fly than a Cessna or a Piper; so I'm thinking about going down the LAA Permit to Fly route

You are very much on the right lines IMHO. Almost any permit aircraft will be more exciting than a Cessna or Piper :E

To get a feel for prices you can go on the LAA web site and under the section relating to the magazine they have a copy of the current classified ads from the magazine. You will be surprised what you can pick up for under £20k. alot of this stuff will need a tailwheel sign off but there are aircraft like the Jabiru which are nose wheel for around that figure.

A small group gives you cheaper flying, minimises the liklihood of conflict and secures as much availability as you are likely to need. If a group of 4 say put up £10K to £12K each you could get yourselves a nice Vans RV or any number of other fairly new kit aircraft.

[Doing Whats Needed]

I act as an Airworthiness Review Signatory, and I have seen aircraft that have changed hands, presumably through "friends" where the new owner has had his toys taken away because there were un-approved modifications fitted to the aircraft. The equipment did not have the necessary release paperwork and the new owner is faced with a bill to certify the installation, have the installation removed or be grounded. Would you buy a car without a full search? Obviously the answer is no, so why do people do it with aircraft?

PM for additional pointers from an airworthiness and maintenance standpoint, particularly if you go the non-permit route.

Happy flying!

Doing whats needed

[Sir Niall Dementia]

The HEFF;

Now you are thinking along the right lines. My aircraft is a Rollason Condor. Some including the late Neil Williams wrote it off as a terrible aircraft, I love it. And the fun factor is huge.

IO540;

I wasn't looking at the idea of buying a PA28 or C172 wreck, but you are probably right. The 2 PA28s and the Robin are aircraft I see regularly and they are all in a dreadful mess. To put my numbers in proportion the cheapest aircraft (purchase price) we manage costs £ 4.8m sterling and around £22 per minute to fly (with all elements factored in). An engine module change is going to come in at around £ 500k for an unexpected failure (not an unkonwn phenomina)

I have known a couple of syndicate members walk away when a Rallye needed an un expected engine change and there wasn't enough money in the sinking fund and the syndicate held out there hands.

SND

[Kolibear]

I also did look at some groups and shares, but couldn't find any in my local area. Perhaps its a laziness on my own part because I don't like to be based away from my local airfield which is twenty-minutes from home.

I think you need to be prepared to be a little more flexible - an hour is probably too far away, but no more than 20mins??

[hatzflyer]

DWN,never heard of an airworthiness revue signatory before in my 40 years of aircraft ownership. What do you do?

[Rod1]

Having owned both CofA machines and LAA I can reassure you that you will save big time on maintenance. My average maintenance bill for a 1978 AA5B (similar to a PA28 180) was £4000 a year. My average bill for my MCR01 (Rotax powered 2 seater) is around £300 per year inc paperwork, The MCR, like many other LAA machines, is faster, better STOL and more fun then my old C of A machine.

The other big cost if you actually want to fly is fuel. My bill has gone down from over £6000 per year to £1800 for the same hours. The MCR is also doing 138kn v the AA5B at 125kn, so in miles covered the difference is even bigger.

Total running costs for an MCR01 Club (LAA) 138kn, 1600fpm, glass panel

Value £55k
Insurance £900
Maintenance £300
Hangarage £1000
Fuel for 100 hours £1800

Total running costs for a Jodel 90kn, 700fpm, traditional panel

Value £18k
Insurance £600
Maintenance £1300
Hangarage £1000
Fuel for 100 hours £2100


Rod1

[Doing Whats Needed]

Hatzflyer

I am the one who puts his name, reputation and future on the line signing the Airworthiness Review Certificate (ARC) for an organisation approved to issue the ARC.

Glad to be able to help educate.

Doing Whats Needed