SNCO Aircrew

[TwchDien]

At present I’m an RAF technician ( DE, ex marine engineer) and have recently completed selection at Cranwell. This led to an offer of AE/ALM/AeOp however only applied ALM as I’ve been led to believe the job of AeOp could be done from the ground via comms link and I’ve done the throttles (BIG) bit and got bored with all that gauge watching.

What to do?

Sorry to clutter with wannabe not pilot but any help would be appreciated.

[young gun]

dude, don't listen to that crap about aeops. the job is cool, where else can you find a job that pays as much as it does, takes you around the world and gives you lots of time off.. yes ok yoiu get arsed about but hell if you don't get that now then you're lucky give it a go

[Talking Radalt]

Dude! Don't listen to all that crap about AEOps. Loadie or Crewman is far cooler! Where else could you find a job so diverse and one which, despite what everyone else will tell you, is probably the only SNCO Aircrew which ISN'T in decline or being replaced by ickle black boxes?
We DO get to go all over too and the diversity of our job is unparalled in any other trade. C130/C17 or Tristar Loadie, Chinook Crewman, SAR Winchman, Mobile Air Ops Team, JATE...All these plus more are open to you if you go Loadie.
Finally, rise above any comments about ALMs being the bottom of the food chain. It's been thrashed out SO many times before on this site, but to sum up, as a loadie you need to have a greater or lesser clue about virtually everyone's job (and they know it too).

[BigBulge]

Dude, be careful of all the above (dare I say it, crap)!

The AEOp world is gonna be using some impressive kit in the near future. With projects like MRA4 and ASTOR hitting the streets within your career, the job will get even better!

As for AEOps working on the ground via comms links, the article in the Daily Sport, dated 29 Feb 2001 was a wind up!

[Specaircrew]

Without wishing to piss off ALMs, I'd thoroughly recommend that you look again at the AEOp role. I'm ex NigNogs and I can assure you that AEOps have a very different job from that of ALMs on a/c such as the C130 or VC10.

[Siggie]

If you don't mind being posted to HMP Kinloss in the frozen north and would like to be in the higher payband then AEOp's the job for you.

[JimNich]

.....and would you like fries with that?

[4Frottles]

Dude,
as a Flight Eng you can discount my branch straight away. As good as it is, the future aint orange.
AEOP, banter aside is demanding and rewarding, not to mention a higher pay band than ALM.
That said, If I were to change and it may well become the case if I decide to stay in, I would be leaning towards ALM.
Have some good mates doing a good job in the loadie world, don't listen to everything you hear.
Cheers Frottles.

[cheapseat]

TD

I’m not a fan of comparing one job/trade against another as that can lead to serious mudslinging. What I can do is tell you what I do in the RAF and if it ‘floats your boat’ come on in, if not I’ll have saved you some heartache.

I’m an SAR Winchman (ALM) and to get here I did a lengthy ‘apprenticeship’ on Support Helicopters, learning the skills required to be a crewman. When I came across to SAR, completion of a flying tour was a prerequisite, however rumour control has it that there may be a direct entrant route in the offing. That said, as you get a feel for my role you will realise that anything you can bring to it at the start will help with what can be a frightening learning curve!

The crux of SAR is risk assessment. The assessment pecking order goes aircraft, winchman, survivor. This is fundamental to the reasons for using aircrew in my role and not a medic with some extra training. A (horrid term) paramedic I may be but it’s my aircrew training, and subsequent airmanship, that helps look after the safe operation of the aircraft. The easiest way to explain this is ‘capacity overlap’. Take, for example, finding a parking slot at Tescos. If you’re doing the driving it’s invariably one of the kids who spots the free slot because, as they’re not dodging trolleys with the car, they’ve got the spare capacity. It is pretty much like that in the helicopter. The aircraft captain will generally fly the aircraft to the various positions dictated by the co pilot, whose working like a one armed paper hanger; operating the nav suit, reading a map, looking after the radios and fuel and most importantly monitoring what the captains doing with the aeroplane. The radar operator has got a similar workload keeping us out of trouble (200’ asl IMC) and another smattering of radios. So why’s it done like that? Well, the bloke who ultimately keeps us all alive, and gets the job done to boot, is the captain, or more importantly the decisions made by the captain, and so this crew set up frees up as much of his capacity as possible. So what do I do? Sod all! Cool eh?…. Have you got it yet? The lack of direct task on the crewman means he is the man on board with the spare capacity. If you’ve skimmed down this post you may well of just pegged me as an arrogant sod, but if you read what I’ve said, you will see that it doesn’t take a brain the size of a planet to have LOTS of spare capacity in my role. So what’s my verbose point? Well a crewman is expected to help the captain, obvious, but to do this properly he needs a knowledge base very close to, ideally the same as, that of the captain.

Anyway, that’s my little bit of a ramble about the BASICs of being a helicopter crewman. Perhaps,TD, the most important thing for you to think of is the fact that you’ve been successful in your application to become RAF Aircrew. It doesn’t matter what trade you come to, as you will be joining a group of aviators who, in my experience almost to a man, are self-motivating professionals. The amount of effort you will expend to gain your brevet will be matched by the effort to wear it amongst your peers with pride.

[Dimmer Switch]

Well said Cheapo - I could read stuff like that all day!

[Talking Radalt]

Like I said CS, we need a little insight in to everyone's job and I think you summed it up admirably.
I wouldn't argue for one second that aircrew trades shouldn't be compared, my point is that for sheer variety you can't beat ALM.
I have some very good friends who are AEOps, and I envy them all their trips to Florida, the Far East etc.
I just sit there and moan about moving 105s around Salisbury Plain in the rain, at night on NVG, the night before I'm due to fly through the London heli-lanes enroute to help out flood victims in the North West before heading off to Northern Ireland for a few days Ops there and then getting on a VC10 to go to Cyprus to task there, getting back to discover I'm on stand by to go to Mozambique, assuming we're not on HMS Ocean (!) by then, oh and in between could we just pop over to Brize to trial some new kit?
And what do all my AEOp mates say?
"Bluddy hell! That sounds so much more interesting that what WE do"
In short, the grass is always greener...

[The Gorilla]

Don't Go for Air Eng, it's a dead end Job with no career prospects and a commissioned cadre who leave much to be desired.

Aeop is ok if u wanna spend most of your life at Kinloss, and most Aeops, to be fair, spend a large part of their lives trying to get away.

ALM is, I would suggest the way ahead. A career I would lean to my self if I weren't so fond of Banana's and gauge watching! Why not go flying with all 3 jobs and see which u fancy??
Good luck anyways..

[Charlie Luncher]

Dude
Go on a little trip courtesy of Her maj
Visit the school at cranners and then go and spend a day or so at each flying sqn that you may be interested in.
You will make your own decision based on what u see. I know that in times of man shortages time may be a factor but talk to your OC or OC p1 and explain your dilemma.
It is a career move that may affect you until your at least 55 years old, tread carefully warrior only fools and career officers rush in.
Charlie sends

[roger out]

Ref. AEOp v ALM
When I was in the RAF I had the chance to do both..qualified as an AEOp, did a tour on 42, then went across to SH, flying on both Wessex and Chinook (failing SARTU en-route!!).
Based on this experience, I can honestly say that I would point anyone down the road to ALM, rather than AEOp. The sheer variety of the tasks undertaken by an SH crewman, coupled with the degree of responsibility and involvement with the mission, make it an excellent job. To be perfectly honest, I found the AEOp thing a bit boring after a while (and of course, being constantly airsick the whole time didn't help!!)
I've been out for several years now, but would go back tomorrow if I could, as I miss it (and the good mates you make) a hell of a lot.
Good luck!!

[snaggletooth]

If you've got a sweet tooth go AEOp - just think of all those DCSs
http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/tongue.gif

------------------
'Several excuses are always less convincing than one'
Aldous Huxley

[Specaircrew]

Yes, in 6 years on 42 I only saw one DCS get as far as the flight deck! (and even then the cream filling was a bit iffy :-))

[FJJP]

Dude,

Why don't you find out for yourself? It's far too important a decision to take based on the comments on this forum (valid tho' they may be). These days you can visit units and talk to people at the coalface, so to speak - go to Odiham, Kinloss, Waddo, a SAR base (Lossie?), Lyn, Brize, etc and talk to the guys in the crewroom. I know it will take time and effort, but you will get a first hand view of the whole 'ish'. Just a thort...

[Martel]

Do not listen to anyone who says the AEOps job could be done from the ground, he knows not what he talks about. Get up to Kinloss and have a good look, I won't go into detail on what they do I would need a couple of pages and half of it cannot be talked about anyway. Suffice to say you could do a lot worse!!!

[Onlyaloadie]

Having done loadie (bit of a clue in username) for a few years now I still enjoy the job lots. Done a bit of both (fixed and rotary). As lots have said already, get time off on duty (so that you can legally fly with a sqn). Have a look at as many of the jobs that your current section will give you the time off for. All you got to do is phone each sqn ops for a point of contact, most of the sqns are already geared up for this type of visit. I am obviously biased toward my job but it's horses for courses. We've got retreads from all sorts in our line, PTIs, PJIs, Suppliers, Air stewards, RAFP, Techies, MT, Ex ARMY,Ex Navy and god save us even ex Air Movements, to name but a few. As far as AEOp......Take off fly for 10-12 hours see the sea land at the same place.......I don't think so. Good Luck.

[This message has been edited by Onlyaloadie (edited 03 March 2001).]

[TwchDien]

Thanks.

It’s good of you all to take some time to help me out.

FJJP You are absolutely right. I’ve spoken to/seen lots of diamond guys/girls doing their bit, but I’ve always sensed a reluctance to ‘blow the trumpet’. Hence the post.

Sorry for the potential to cause a blood bath, copious amounts of restraint seem to have been applied, ta.

CS & TR You are stealing the show, giving an insight into the nitty gritty of life in your trade, thanks.

[Martel]

onlyaloadie eh?
At least AEOps can spell sea!
When did you become an expert on AEOps?
They don't knock Load Masters, you might like to keep your ill informed opinions to yourself!

[Charlie Luncher]

GOOOOOOOOOOO martel

you can take him
maybe he should change his name to
wait for it
only a dumb loadie
nah too common
ps
if im stuck in my dinghy please forget all above

[TimC]

http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/lol.gif

[SarBuoy]

Charlie, re your PS -
It's an AEOp who decides whether or not to dangle the ALM to pick you up, so don't hold back.........

[TheRevoltingCrewman]

There's no contest mate.

If you were bullied at school then you'd be better off amongst your own kind at Kinloss.
They'll fit you out with a new anorak.

If you used to do the bullying then come and join us in the job with all the fun and none of the responsibility! Become a loadmaster and you'll never have to distinguish a blib from a blob.

[milligan]

had a few years on the mighty hunter (a while ago I admit),

Kinloss - same sort of deal as Lossie really, you either love the place, or, in my experience, you grow to love it. Unfortunately, Scotland merely offers, to the vast majority, a vision of insurmountable distance from 'civilisation'. Firstly, it is often quicker to fly to any destination in England from Inverness/Aberdeen than it is to commute there from London, if thats your thing. More importantly, the Highlands of Scotland provide are far more interesting backdrop to life than most places I've experienced in England - granted if you are not the outdoor type it may not appeal, but for unspoilt wilderness, friendly people, biking, running, skiing, walking, sailing, climbing, mountaineering, canoeing etc etc on your doorstep it is unbeatable. And yes, that rumour you heard about there being more sunshine in the lee of the highands than anywhere else in the UK is true.

The job then - rose tinted glasses aside, I found it offered, as with a lot of jobs, some moments of intense excitement, in company with a fair chunk of mundanity. Sadly, the halcyon days of the sub-hunters have long gone. Saying that, although I cant speak for the current cadre, even a decade ago there were still opportunities for the odd trip 'up north', and the sheer thrill of being the one who picks up the first sign of a Russian sub, who doesn't want to be found, is not something I have found before or since in any discipline. SAR offers the same. The thrill of the chase is still the AEOps life-blood, whatever the prey might be.

Big Norm's task has changed considerably over the last 15 years, mostly out of self-preservation since the collapse of the Russian Navy, but, as far as I can tell from correspondence from old crew-mates, the detachments are still good, and there are newly established roles. The MRA4 also represents a technological leap (forget threads about the airframe/crew comp/engines, its the siggies that will benefit from world class avionics - and the Searchwater/Yellowgate set-up was world class anyway). Aaaaaaaaaah, Fincastle.

One MAJOR aspect is CRM. The Nimrod crew environment is not for everyone, and can be vicious. I joke not. Thirteen of Her Majesty's finest, (virtually) permanently constituted, cooped up in a tube and dispatched around the globe to do their thing can produce personality clashes, which can spiral out of control under poor leadership. On the flip-side, a good crew, as I experienced, can take on the world, and offer life-long friendships.

Other aspects -

Sickness, many (but not all) suffer: low level, turbulent environment, mixed stench of hydraulic fluid and curry, your mate is puking 3 feet away from you, you feel like **** , you dont have a window and there are 5 more hours on task.

Food - a Korean rules DCS eating contest was possibly the finest culinary moment of my career.

Landing at the same place after a trip: one of the greatest benefits I thought - go flying, go home. Save the landaways for decent detachments.

As I said, rose tinted spectacles, but I have a lot of good memories.

Good luck.

[This message has been edited by milligan (edited 03 March 2001).]

[TimC]

Unfortunately, I won't be joining you at AAITC. I got the letter turning me down this morning http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/frown.gif.

Those of you who have given me advice and guidance over the past 6 months - I can't thank you enough.

Cheers

Tim

[BACK 5]

cheap seat

nice little summary of the airmanship side of being a winchie but what about the main bit? lifesaving, clattered into trawlers at night in a force 8 (by AEOP's!!) spacewalking on the Ben, recovery of mangled bodies, arse deep in bodily fluids etc etc ???? don't you do that? you must be at wattisham!!!

[The Mistress]

Sorry to hear that Tim. The very best of luck in whatever you do next.

[Double Hush]

Milligan,

The Moray probably does have a good sunshine record but you've got to be wearing your long-johns and fleece to appreciate it!

[BEagle]

Total agreement with TM, TimC. Many sympathies and the very best of luck in your future endeavours.

If you're interested in becoming a civil pilot at some stage, perhaps you might wish to research the Air League website for information regarding some of their scholarship schemes?

Best wishes,

BEagle

[TimC]

Cheers TM and beags.

Only interested in reapplying at the moment :). Yes I know I must be mad!

http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/jump.gif

[milligan]

took the words out of my mouth TC - if at first you dont succeed.....good luck.

Double-Hush. sunbathing in long-johns? good anti-cancer plan i reckon! :mad:

[animo et fide]

Timc
Thats the attitude to take, it took me two attempts to make them realise my potential and now I'm on the mighty wokka, I haven't looked back since. Good luck m8 and don't let the b*****ds grind you down

[TimC]

Cheers. This was actually my 3rd application to the RAF, though it was the first time I've been to OASC. Still don't know whether I can reapply at all yet.

[Siggie]

I guess there was one Spanish fisherman who was glad to see an AEOp in a Nimrod today.