Attempt to Save Money Threatens Pilot Numbers!

[Pete O'Heater]

UAS students may have to wait until the April following graduation (almost a year after completing exams) before commencing IOT. This is to save paying them as Flying Officers in the hold before re-commencing flying training ('bottleneck' at Linton/Valley). No refresher flying will be given, again to save money. So, after 3 years of hard work by QFIs at the UAS, the hope of retaining post-graduates, with serious money already invested, relies on them not being bothered about waiting to pay of their overdraft, student loan etc. Methinks they will mostly decide it is too impractical to wait! 'Penny wise and pounds foolish' again! :rolleyes:

[BEagle]

I'm amazed that anyone seriously intending to join the RAF as a FJ pilot would ever bother to join a UAS as a pilot nowadays. Because the flying is now assessed, it 'matters'. So there are a couple of options open for those who want to get decent degrees at the same time:

1. Join a UAS as a Ground Branch officer cadet in your second (particularly if you're reading engineering as the RAF is gagging for engineers right now!). Do the 'air experience' syllabus. Then say (after finals) that you've been soooo impressed by the flying you've done that you'd really, really like to join the RAF as a pilot - or industry as an engineer as you'll probably have been able to get a decent degree. If accepted, you'd then do IOT before getting 60 hours in 4-6 months - and the added continuity, lack of academic pressures hanging over you and the maturity gained from having passed IOT will make it far more likely that you'd pass selection for fast jets.

2. Join the OTC and get TA pay when you're attending at the unit. Have a great time with some good mates. After finals, go and knock on the RAF recruiter's door. Say that the only reason you didn't want to join a UAS was that your studies had to come first and you that you didn't think that you would have been able to give sufficient time to flying to progress satisfactorily. Then proceed as above through IOT and EFTS.

3. Join a UAS as a pilot. Go flying when you can manage it. Scrape through your degree, scrape through the UAS syllabus. Wait for IOT. Wait even longer to be told that, surprise, surprise you haven't been streamed FJ. Wipe away the crocodile tears, do MELIN, then ME training. Go to a ME OCU, then do a tour as a co-pilot, another 2 as a captain. Qualify for your ATPL, PVR and go to an airline.........

It's your choice - brought about by the appalling mutilation of RAF Flying Training by the bean counters... It used to be:

Get selected as a University Cadet. Get paid as an APO at University, get automatic UAS membership and have a great time with some great mates. Concentrate on your academic studies. Do some flying - enough to get a few hours knocked off the BFTS syllabus. Go to Cranwell, do IOT and then a full BFTS-to-Wings course at the Royal Air Force College. Then get streamed to AFTS on either FJ, ME or RW. An excellent system which was tried and tested. But the little men of no spine have allowed it to be whittled away to the current nonsense........

[ 20 October 2001: Message edited by: BEagle ]

[Max R8]

I think Beags has hit the nail on the head, as usual. The biggest problem today though is the time it takes students to complete their degree and get on with training. 25 years ago it was out of school at 18, 3 years at Uni (as a fully paid up APO cadetship!) and into IOT age 21! This week I have interviewed candidates who fluffed their A levels (18) and retook after another year (19), did a Gap year (20), a foundation course (21) and are starting the average 4 year with sandwich degree (25 on grad!!!). Sorry mate...too old for training. Even with good Alevels many do a gap year and a 4 year course leaving them 22 plus into IOT. They will be lucky to be in their twenties on their 2nd tour.

How about this. Get the kids to join direct from School. No need for gap year with lots of Adventure training on IOT/EFT. Get the "admin trianers" to properly structure time in training for a OU degree, which will be a bit easier with credits from IOT/EFT/AFT/OCC/ISS and bingo! You are 22 on a fast jet squadron with a degree that didn't bankrupt you or your parents and require you to live in squallor for 4 years. Mums and Dads will be queueing up to throw their offspring at the RAF!!!!!

[BEagle]

Indeed a good idea, MaxR8!! You would need a large-ish place with good lecture rooms, sports facilities- oh, and an aerodrome. You could even call it a College. Perhaps even 'THE' Royal Air Force College. A 2 1/2 year OT/fitness/educational/wings course all at the same location. I'm surprised no-one had thought of that before.....

Hang on - wasn't there once someone called Trenchard...............

[kbf1]

Just an addition to point 2 Beages, I don't think that the commitment to OTC is any less than UAS, in fact the potential is there for far more.

After 6 months of basic training (MTQ1) which condenses pertty much the 1st term of RMAS into 22 weeks training you move into sub-units in the 3rd term of yr 1 for work up and special-to-arm training pre camp. You will do 1 night a week and usually 4 weekends per term while in MTQ1. In the 3rd term when you go to your sub-unit you will do at least 2 weekends learning the ropes of your sub-unit trade. You then spend 2 weeks on camp in the summer, and quite often a number of cadets stay on and do a full summer either on attachment with their sponsoring cap-badge, or in jobs in the OTC such as recruiting JOU.

When you get into year 2 and MTQ2 the term is split between sub-unit and officer training for 2 terms and this is when the commitment goes up, espcially if you are in a support arm sub-unit like RSigs or RLC. You will have a mix of MTQ2 weekends, competitions such as KG6, Courage Trophy, Ex Lightning Strike as well as weekends run by the reg army corps/regt's, your sub unit is sponsored by.This training makes up at least 2 weekends a term. The support arms usually end up doing all the other weekends as well. For each Ex a small contingent of RLC and RSigs OCdts were used for transport and comms, and this included 1st year training. This is combined with admin tasks like going in for 1/2 days during the week to move vehicles around or do post-ex admin in your sub unit. Then there is the social life, which requires organisation. The instructors have dinners every so often and rather than employ contract staff they will look for volunteers from the Ocdts to act as waiters and so on for cash (lets face it, it always comes in useful!). The RSM usually has a few MTDs in his pocket for things like the ceremonial squad too.

All in during my 1st term of my 2nd year at uni I was on ex every weekend between September and December. I did 1 training night per week and often went in on the MTQ1 training night to help my PSI and get lashed in the mess. I did most wed afternoons running vehicles around and quite a bit more besides. I earned shed loads of cash, but didn't have much time for study, so my results were not the best.

I would be a bit careful about saying that the commitment is less. Of course it will be what yu want to make it in the end, but it has a habit of drawing yu in once yu are there. The money is useful and you start to enjoy it. The other danger is theat you are not exposed to RAF ways of thinking and RAF contacts which are useful. But, you will get a far better officer training syllabus that will develp other skills such as leadership and fieldcraft than the UAS which will be beneficial for some of IOT, but it will require a lot of flexibility when you go to RAFC because they RAF think differently to the army when it comes to training officers. If you can do that, and enjoy OTC before signing up with the RAF, then it is a good option. Agree that RAF training is pants though, the "hold" system just seems to serve no other purpose than to mess Flg Off around and destroy any enthusiasm that may once have ben there. To be fair though, the army is quite capable of doing this too with it's Lts.

[BEagle]

Sorry mate - didn't mean to imply that there was less commitment in the OTC; merely that you could get an excellent introduction to service life in the OTC, but you wouldn't suffer from lack of flying continuity which would be detrimental to assessment towards Fast Jet flying. Plus, having the background of the OTC, selection for RAF entry would be considerably benefitted.

Out of interest, in 1972 ULOTC had (I think) Miss TAVR 2nd, 3rd, 5th and 7th placed ladies amongst its members. Before such things were declared non-PC!!


A Flt Cdt at Cranwell in the late 50s used to be able to cram the following into a 3 year course (as reported to the Air Council in 1959):

"Flying. Cadet pilots receive 45 hours navigation training in Valettas during their first 3 terms followed by 140 hours basic flying training on Piston Provosts in terms 4, 5 and 6 and 130 hrs advanced flying training on Vampires in terms 7 and 8.
Academic Studies. (Aeronautical Science, Engineering and the Humanities). The present syllabus covers 1008 instructional and the humanities 426 instructional hours. An unspecified part of the total private study time of 399 hours is also devoted to scientific and humanistic subjects.
General Service Subjects. The present syllabus covers 740 hours"

But I guess quality mattered more in those days.

[ 20 October 2001: Message edited by: BEagle ]

[Tonkenna]

Nice to see that our hard work is appreciated, though I have not heard this officially yet.

BEagle, we do get lads and lassies through to fast jet, though I do agree that maybe it is not the best way of doing things.

There are many probs on the UASs that need addressing sharpish, but with the lack of dosh there is at the moment I cannot see things getting better for a while. The penny pinching that is going on a the present is so sad. We are being asked to save the odd £100 here and there, yet I dread to think about how much has been, and still is being, wasted on the sorting out all the Tutor's problems.

Lets get things right now, because it is getting harder and harder to sell the forces to young people and it saps the enthusiasm of those of us who have to teach them. It is getting a little tedious to have to explain every day why something else has been stopped, banned or withdrawn.

Tonks :(

[Bad company]

Despite the well documented problems, UAS does still give the Lads and lassies a chance to see what potential they have, without making any long term commitment. I suspect that the current policy of no top up flying will have to be re-addressed when the failure rate at Linton starts to ramp up. However, a thought for those of you caught in the hold, why not ask to hold with a UAS on a front line station. The Sqn will be glad of the extra help, and the seat time you will get on SCT rides should at least keep you interested. However, I agree with Pete, relying on EFT graduates to be keen enough to wait until the following April before paying them as members of the RAF is a really great idea--NOT.
:mad: null

[ 20 October 2001: Message edited by: Bad company ]

[bad livin']

Excellent points from a huge pool of experience. I am joined by several friends in wishing that we HAD done UAS - because any flying at all before IOT/JEFTS would have stood us in much better stead and perhaps then I would A)(most likely) have been chopped pilot at uni and been able to decide what else I wanted to do or B)been better at JEFTS, not having been able to afford to fly privately and not knowing about schols. etc at the time. I am jealous (and proud) of my IOT UAS mates, a large percentage of whom are now at Valley. I just wish I had done it too. Tonkenna - I studied in your UAS area, are there any plans to advertise a little more once the gay/lesbian/bisexual juntas that have taken over the uni governments in Scotland relax their campus recruitment bans? I would encourage anyone thinking of joining to seriously look at the UAS, or indeed to skip uni altogether and go for it, being accredited through training as suggested above.

[Art Field]

Oh dear, a read through this and the Kidlington saga is depressing reading. The days when RAF aircrew could knock spots of any exchange guy (Fred, you were the exception) remembering they were hand picked, seem to be fading fast.
Training always is the first to suffer in a financial crisis, after all the man who saves is well gone before the effect rears its ugly head in increased accidents and loss of operational capability. A V senior officer said a few years back "We can't afford the Rolls Royce solution to training any more", surely its true we must afford the Rolls Royce solution (I don't mean sack half the work force).

[BEagle]

So perhaps we should go for providing just air experience at UASs - you wouldn't need QFIs for that, just suitably qualified pilots. Or perhaps just a few QFIs to teach just 'up to first solo' as they do for the navigators? But make the main route in to the RAF for pilots through a dedicated RAFC 3 year 'spotty schoolkid to officer with degree and wings' course flying the T67 and Tucano?
University graduate pilots to do a shortened IOT and EFTS course (following UAS air experience on the Teutor), then on to wings standard at the RAFC alongside their younger colleagues?

Then FJ to Valley, ME to the USA on the Jayhawk and RW to purple chopper school?

[ 20 October 2001: Message edited by: BEagle ]

[Jackonicko]

Two entirely separate and unrelated points.

An RAF College degree would be relevant, and would have lot's of other advantages, but you'd end up with guys who had seen nothing of 'life outside' between school (perhaps a fairly monastic/sheltered/institutional boarding school) and the RAF. Surely the benefeit of having graduates from a variety of Unis and Polys is that you get people who've had excellent (often irrelevant but academically and intellectually stimulating) training in their chosen subjects, who have seen a bit of 'life' and who have had to relate to and live alongside people from very different backgrounds with very different values and aspirations. They are, I believe, more likely to be 'rounded personalities' and as such may give the RAF as an organisation an essential understanding and linkage with life outside, where, of course we all sit down throught the national anthem, don't drink, smoke prodigious quantities of weed and vote loony left. I wouldn't want evry young aircrew trainee to have come from a asket weaving degree at Hull Uni, of course, but a handful are useful.

Secondly, UASs are the single best way of winning friends in the Uni-educated world - Many Drs, Lawyers, Teachers and filthy scum journos look back on UAS days as 'the best in their lives' and are left with an abiding affection for the RAF, a vague understanding of how it works and what makes it work, and an enormous respect for it and its members, and all for the cost of between one hundred and fifty and two hundred hours on the Bulldog and/or Chipmunk. (Oops! Am I showing my age and hours-hog tendencies?)

[rudekid]

Jacko

University Air Squadrons as a tool for training and initiating our future aircrew: Yes.

University Air Squadrons as a tool for educating a few doctors, lawyers and other types on how to F*&* the RAF over when given a civil lawsuit or a medical negligence suit to file.

Sure, the odd few may look back on it with rose tints on, but I'd rather spend the hours on my Sqn JP who I'll be dragging around in an operational theatre.

Relative value?

[BEagle]

Sadly the UAS world which Jackonicko remembers is now gone for ever thanks to the bean counters. 90 hours in 3 years (all of which is assessed) is all that youngsters can now look forward to - and that only if they're accepted by the RAF for a 3rd year.

And we thought that we were hard done by in the 70s when we heard tales of UAS students flying Harvards, Piston Provosts and Ansons during their time years earlier.........

[kbf1]

No dramas Beages, just painting a picture of what may be expected by anyone reading this thread with a view to making a decision.

We have to accept that the world has changed. The view Jacko espouses has a lot to do with the fact that 20 years ago
universities were universities and the polys accepted their inferiority and only about 20% or so of school leavers went on to university. Those were the days when RMAS ran a shorter course for grads than non-grads and an immediate acting commission on entry with substantive Lt on graduation. Grads made up about 30% of RMAS entrants and the non-grads typically left school after the A-levels were done and went to work in a mgt training course with Sainsburys.

Contrast that with B Liar's Cool Britania. The polys are now the University of Chipping Sodbury and about 60% of school leavers now have non-degrees in under-water basket weaving and he is looking to make more youngster "gwaduates". The net result is that the Common Commissioning Course is now run with all cadets in the same intake with about 80% graduate entry.

OTC training is also assesed, though less obviously than UAS. As OCdts in the TA an annual confidential report is filled out that is held on file for when applying to RCB/TCB and goes ahead of you on entry to RMAS. In these days of bean counting and penny pinching the same problems are occuring in the OTCs with equipment under-maintained and old stocks of weapons and uniform. It is only with the help of sponsoiring regular and TA regiments that anything ever gets done.

[Max R8]

The OTC has one major advantage over the UAS...cash money!!! I got the impression during recruiting that the lads & laddettes on the OTC and RNU were reimburssed considerably more than the UAS students. However, we did have a couple of candidates who would gladly give up their OTC membership for a chance to fly. I know the system I proposed earlier is a rehash of the original Cranwellian method (I hoped no-one would notice) but will the little darlings really miss university life? What about the adventure of being a 22 year old fast jet pilot on operations around the globe? I guess they might seem a bit sheltered and unworldly compared to their peers pissing it up in the Union bar at Wolves!!!

[Night NVG Goggles]

kbf1
Your reply brought back many memories of OTC days and the amount of commitment you had to give. Definitly "Work hard,play hard and get very drunk." OK you do not get as good a insight into Air Force life, but the leadership qualities gained are excellent. Also many friends in Regiments serving around the UK.
Basically in my opinion, enjoy Uni, complete IOT and let the tried and tested RAF training do its job! Besides RAF life will give you many years of flying, no matter what type.